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  1. #41
    Origami Angel Ame no kage's Avatar
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    Re: Chiyo vs Zabuza

    Granny wins this, experience trumps brute force, sometimes you guys forget the older the shinobi the more experienced gained hints the life span of those 2 has lived. and judging by the age of chiyo she would have exceptional vast amount of information on zabuza and his jutsus. But reading your argument would suggest you already picked a winner. you should try a little harder at hiding the fanboy for zabuza, its not fooling anyone.
     
         
    Last edited by Ame no kage; 11-26-2012 at 08:23 AM.

  2. #42
    Argumentative Bastard Piratefish's Avatar
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    Re: Chiyo vs Zabuza

    Quote Originally Posted by Ame no kage View Post
    Granny wins this, experience trumps brute force, sometimes you guys forget the older the shinobi the more experienced gained hints the life span of those 2 has lived. and judging by the age of chiyo she would have exceptional vast amount of information on zabuza and his jutsus. But reading your argument would suggest you already picked a winner. you should try a little harder at hiding the fanboy for zabuza, its not fooling anyone.
    You don't seem to have noticed that even ShaneEyyy admitted Chiyo was the probable victor. Don't attempt to diss people if you don't even read.
     
         

  3. #43
    The Head of Inuzuka Clan kibainuzuka's Avatar
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    Re: Chiyo vs Zabuza

    nope zabuza would cut her in 2 pieces :P
     
         

  4. #44
    Argumentative Bastard Piratefish's Avatar
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    Re: Chiyo vs Zabuza

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    No it won't, the only reason why the Executioner Blade got snapped in the first place was by brutal force by the Raikage, if Zabuza and Darui engaged it wouldn't constantly get weaker and smaller, as shown when Suigetsu used the half of the sword to fight Darui, and the sword didn't take any more damage to it. I can show you a scan if you want. Zabuza is beating out Darui if they engage in Kenjutsu.
    Darui is the right-hand-man to the Raikage who to a large degree focuses on kenjutsu. He beat Suigetsu effortlessly, they didn't fight for long. Also, he used Raiton to immobilize Suigetsu and not to damage the Kubikiri Hocho. Since he's demonstrated superior techniques to Sasuke in at least one area when it comes to Raiton-Charge (he can maintain it even without touching his sword) i see him able to damage Zabuza's sword. He's not outclassed to the point where he can be beaten with kenjutsu before he can fire off at least one ninjutsu.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    You're right, he doesn't have Kakashi's senses, he has advanced better senses, which makes up for his lack of Sharingan with reacting. Zabuza would be able to sense a laser coming at him because it was noted in the manga that even the slightest movement of the eye can give yourself away to Zabuza. If he's moving in and a laser is coming at him, Darui CANNOT follow him where he hears him because just as you said, Zabuza is silent, Darui won't be able to sense and aim at him. Even if a laser hit Zabuza, it wouldn't even cause major damage, as shown when he used Laser Circus against Kinkaku and he got barraged with lasers, but didn't have to reanimate much, if I recall, not at all. Laser Circus would be a lucky move in the mist if it hit Zabuza, but he would have to spread them out and 1-2 lasers won't kill him.
    Ranton's advantage is its precision. It has a certain amount of power, and if it hits Zabuza it'll at least slow him down, if it doesn't hit solidly enough to take him out entirely. It's fast enough to surprise Kinkaku and may be enough to illuminate the mist, so Darui can SEE Zabuza and use that to aim ALL the lasers his way, and fire off more accurate later volleys, or BL.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    I think we've seen Darui's full ability with Suiton, as he's a major lightning user, his ONLY water tech is Water Wall, which is used for defense. However, he has to know or see when the enemy is coming at him to know when to activate it, which he won't because of his lack of sensing abilities. So his suiton against Zabuza is basically useless. Zabuza wouldn't even need to use Giant Vortex or Water Dragon Jutsu anyways, all he needs is mist.
    If someone can use a technique AT THE SAME TIME as another technique (really REALLY rare, I can't think of anyone save Nagato to have done that) it's more than reasonable that he can use more difficult techniques as well. At the very least he won't be caught off-guard by Zabuza's Water jutsu.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    It HAS mixed with water before as shown when Darui used it on water to kill Zetsu clones before engaging KinGin, comon dude know your facts haha. Black Lightning/Panther arn't solid techniques, just enhanced lightning that run through water. I can show you a scan if you want.
    Yeah, I remember now. That was pretty fail of me. Black Lightning COULD be used as a large-scale mist-piercer, though. If it's aimed in the right direction it would be hard to dodge.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    Dude I think now you're trying to find any argument, Darui has only shown to use Water Wall, which is expelled from the mouth, we can't say he has any other water techs because they havn't been shown, I could say that Zabuza has Water Wall also if we are going to use logic like that. Kakashi used his dogs to sense/smell the blood on Zabuza's blade, dude know your facts when debating man!
    I'd say Zabuza WOULD have Water Wall, if anything. It's fairly basic. And wouldn't a Suijinheki be enough to disperse the mist if he used it as fuel? Kakashi was able to react to Zabuza in the mist LONG before he got cut.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    Zabuza has the favor of this battle, also if I seem if I'm being harsh I'm just trying to get the point across, you have some valid points though.
    I still think Darui has the edge.
     
         

  5. #45
    Senior Member ShaneEyyy's Avatar
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    Re: Chiyo vs Zabuza

    Darui is the right-hand-man to the Raikage who to a large degree focuses on kenjutsu. He beat Suigetsu effortlessly, they didn't fight for long. Also, he used Raiton to immobilize Suigetsu and not to damage the Kubikiri Hocho. Since he's demonstrated superior techniques to Sasuke in at least one area when it comes to Raiton-Charge (he can maintain it even without touching his sword) i see him able to damage Zabuza's sword. He's not outclassed to the point where he can be beaten with kenjutsu before he can fire off at least one ninjutsu.
    I wouldn't say effortlessly, he still had to try and focus because Suigetsu was good enough at Kenjutsu to be complimented by Kisame. Darui enhancing his sword with lightning is just to increase it's power, it doesn't change for the purpose of immobilizing Suigetsu or damaging the Executioner blade. Plus, I highly doubt Darui even knew Suigetsu was part of the Hozuki clan. Suigetsu was captured by Orochimaru so Darui having no intel on him is understandable. Also, if your read chapter 462-463, you will see when Darui and Suigetsu engage in fighting, Darui's lightning has no effect on the sword, unless it was just very slowing scraping/cutting it. As I said before, his lightning stay's the same for whatever purpose, unless you can prove me wrong with a comparison from a scan(s).


    Ranton's advantage is its precision. It has a certain amount of power, and if it hits Zabuza it'll at least slow him down, if it doesn't hit solidly enough to take him out entirely. It's fast enough to surprise Kinkaku and may be enough to illuminate the mist, so Darui can SEE Zabuza and use that to aim ALL the lasers his way, and fire off more accurate later volleys, or BL.
    I would've expected a better argument than this one. True, Raiton's advantage is it's precision. With that being said, since Darui CANNOT SEE Zabuza because of the mist and Laser Circus not giving the user vision...., then he can't aim to hit Zabuza, it has to be a random shot which lowers the chances greatly.... If Zabuza didn't have Hidden Mist, Darui would be able to hit Zabuza directly and cause a great deal of physical damage, however this isn't the case. Also, you really think a blast of Laser Circus is going to take Zabuza out? Maybe moderate pain but dude, he was stabbed with at least 10 swords inserted deep into his body and still charged at Gato with full speed and killed him. I know you're going to say, "Laser Circus is far more stronger than swords", but it's really not when you've got inserted 10 swords deep into your body, it's probably even greater at that point. I think that's agreeable to some extent?

    If someone can use a technique AT THE SAME TIME as another technique (really REALLY rare, I can't think of anyone save Nagato to have done that) it's more than reasonable that he can use more difficult techniques as well. At the very least he won't be caught off-guard by Zabuza's Water jutsu.
    With debating, we can't assume Darui has more jutsu to give. Imagine how long it may have taken him to master the 3rd Raikage's technique, I mean, with only the 3rd possessing it and only teaching Darui it, it had to take a lot of time to master. Also, don't you think it took Darui a while to use his Kekkei Genkai? Maybe not so long, but to be able to use lightning and water at the same time must take a lot of practice to get down. Not only that, but he learned the Water Wall jutsu and that lightning technique that works in conjunction with it which must have taken time too. I'm telling you dude, the chances of Darui having more jutsu aren't so great as you may think. And if we use that analogy, I could say Zabuza being a great Suiton user can use Water Wall as well, which we can't confirm. True, he won't be caught off guard by Zabuza's water techs, out of the mist but that won't happen because Darui doesn't have a tech to navigate the mist.

    Yeah, I remember now. That was pretty fail of me. Black Lightning COULD be used as a large-scale mist-piercer, though. If it's aimed in the right direction it would be hard to dodge.
    Oh like Kakuzu's False Darkness jutsu? Yea, I can agree with that. However, if it's used against Zabuza's Water Dragon or Giant Vortex then it will be conducted through as shown when Black Lightning hit the water before.

    I'd say Zabuza WOULD have Water Wall, if anything. It's fairly basic. And wouldn't a Suijinheki be enough to disperse the mist if he used it as fuel? Kakashi was able to react to Zabuza in the mist LONG before he got cut.
    I wouldn't say fairly basic as it is a B-rank move. But again, we can't assume these things unless shown. And no, the mist is made up of very little water droplets, I actually thought the same thing once, but there wouldn't even be enough to fill up a glass of water. Science there Kakashi actually wasn't able to react well to Zabuza in the mist, and Kakashi had a 3 tomoe Sharingan which helps A LOT, something that Darui doesn't have. If you look at the link I shared with you in one of my previous post, it provides a scan of Kakashi getting pushed around.

    I still think Darui has the edge.
    I will change your mind.
     
         
    Last edited by ShaneEyyy; 11-27-2012 at 12:36 AM.

  6. #46
    Argumentative Bastard Piratefish's Avatar
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    Re: Chiyo vs Zabuza

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    kk

    ye
    is that your WHOLE response?
     
         

  7. #47
    Senior Member ShaneEyyy's Avatar
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    Re: Chiyo vs Zabuza

    Quote Originally Posted by Piratefish View Post
    is that your WHOLE response?
    No, I was trying to find out how to do that quote thing that you do to make listing and reading arguments back and forth easier and I was testing it out.

    You got my argument
     
         

  8. #48
    Argumentative Bastard Piratefish's Avatar
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    Re: Chiyo vs Zabuza

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    I wouldn't say effortlessly, he still had to try and focus because Suigetsu was good enough at Kenjutsu to be complimented by Kisame. Darui enhancing his sword with lightning is just to increase it's power, it doesn't change for the purpose of immobilizing Suigetsu or damaging the Executioner blade. Plus, I highly doubt Darui even knew Suigetsu was part of the Hozuki clan. Suigetsu was captured by Orochimaru so Darui having no intel on him is understandable. Also, if your read chapter 462-463, you will see when Darui and Suigetsu engage in fighting, Darui's lightning has no effect on the sword, unless it was just very slowing scraping/cutting it. As I said before, his lightning stay's the same for whatever purpose, unless you can prove me wrong with a comparison from a scan(s).
    Ah, well. Kenjutsu is a stalemate, then.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    I would've expected a better argument than this one. True, Raiton's advantage is it's precision. With that being said, since Darui CANNOT SEE Zabuza because of the mist and Laser Circus not giving the user vision...., then he can't aim to hit Zabuza, it has to be a random shot which lowers the chances greatly.... If Zabuza didn't have Hidden Mist, Darui would be able to hit Zabuza directly and cause a great deal of physical damage, however this isn't the case. Also, you really think a blast of Laser Circus is going to take Zabuza out? Maybe moderate pain but dude, he was stabbed with at least 10 swords inserted deep into his body and still charged at Gato with full speed and killed him. I know you're going to say, "Laser Circus is far more stronger than swords", but it's really not when you've got inserted 10 swords deep into your body, it's probably even greater at that point. I think that's agreeable to some extent?
    I was talking about a DIRECT HIT with ALL of the laser-beams. I figure that would kill most non-edos. Laser Circus, like lightning, seems to illuminate its surroundings to some degree, which would help see through the mist. Streetlamps help even when it's misty, you know. But using Ranton like this also gives Zabuza warning, and shows him Darui's location.

    On a side-note, do you think Darui could direct a Laser Circus so it spun around him like a shield?

    Also, I think Darui is more intelligent than Zabuza. He switches tactics on the fly, while Zabuza uses pretty much the same trick all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    With debating, we can't assume Darui has more jutsu to give. Imagine how long it may have taken him to master the 3rd Raikage's technique, I mean, with only the 3rd possessing it and only teaching Darui it, it had to take a lot of time to master. Also, don't you think it took Darui a while to use his Kekkei Genkai? Maybe not so long, but to be able to use lightning and water at the same time must take a lot of practice to get down. Not only that, but he learned the Water Wall jutsu and that lightning technique that works in conjunction with it which must have taken time too. I'm telling you dude, the chances of Darui having more jutsu aren't so great as you may think. And if we use that analogy, I could say Zabuza being a great Suiton user can use Water Wall as well, which we can't confirm. True, he won't be caught off guard by Zabuza's water techs, out of the mist but that won't happen because Darui doesn't have a tech to navigate the mist.
    I think he must have mastered Black Lightning while the Sandaime was alive; who else would there be to teach him?

    Laser Circus COULD be used to help navigate.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    Oh like Kakuzu's False Darkness jutsu? Yea, I can agree with that. However, if it's used against Zabuza's Water Dragon or Giant Vortex then it will be conducted through as shown when Black Lightning hit the water before.
    Yup. Exactly how big is the shown Black Lightning techs? Could Darui hit most of everything around him with two or three uses? Can he direct Black Panther to circle him as a defense?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    I wouldn't say fairly basic as it is a B-rank move. But again, we can't assume these things unless shown. And no, the mist is made up of very little water droplets, I actually thought the same thing once, but there wouldn't even be enough to fill up a glass of water. Science there Kakashi actually wasn't able to react well to Zabuza in the mist, and Kakashi had a 3 tomoe Sharingan which helps A LOT, something that Darui doesn't have. If you look at the link I shared with you in one of my previous post, it provides a scan of Kakashi getting pushed around.
    Water Wall, and wall techniques in general seem almost universal for proficient users of the more defensive elements. Kakashi has Water AND Earth Wall, Hiruzen had Earth Wall, ALL of those guys who got dominated by the Sandaime Raikage had Earth Wall, Tobirama has Water Wall, Darui has Water Wall. Mei has a Water Pillar. Kisame doesn't, but then again his fighting style is almost entirely offensive.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    I will change your mind.
    We'll see.
     
         

  9. #49
    Senior Member ShaneEyyy's Avatar
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    Re: Chiyo vs Zabuza

    Ah, well. Kenjutsu is a stalemate, then.
    I was just about to say it was.


    I was talking about a DIRECT HIT with ALL of the laser-beams. I figure that would kill most non-edos. Laser Circus, like lightning, seems to illuminate its surroundings to some degree, which would help see through the mist. Streetlamps help even when it's misty, you know. But using Ranton like this also gives Zabuza warning, and shows him Darui's location.

    On a side-note, do you think Darui could direct a Laser Circus so it spun around him like a shield?

    Also, I think Darui is more intelligent than Zabuza. He switches tactics on the fly, while Zabuza uses pretty much the same trick all the time.
    Laser Circus wouldn't help Darui see, it's actually not even that bright because it's also mixed with water. Also, do you see Darui randomly using Laser Circus to produce light and randomly hitting Zabuza? Even if it produces enough light, he doesn't have 2 eyes behind his head, Zabuza will always strike behind you, no matter where you turn, no matter where you go. Lights won't help Darui I'm telling you.

    It's a possibility, but a low one. He can aim what direction the lasers go, like a missle, but it was never shown that the missles could even go behind him in opposite directions.

    I would have to disagree with Zabuza using the same trick. First, Zabuza uses Hidden Mist and Silent Killing, then he uses Water Clone feints mixed with extreme Kenjutsu and Water Prison, and if none of that works he would use large scale suiton techs (Water Dragon and Giant Vortex).

    I think he must have mastered Black Lightning while the Sandaime was alive; who else would there be to teach him?

    Laser Circus COULD be used to help navigate.
    Actually yea I can agree with that, but still we can't assume he knows more jutsu just like we can't assume Guy and Asuma know more ninjutsu when they only shown 3 and less.

    Laser Circus would create narrow holes in the mist, but then it would fill in very fast because Zabuza makes it very thick.



    Yup. Exactly how big is the shown Black Lightning techs? Could Darui hit most of everything around him with two or three uses? Can he direct Black Panther to circle him as a defense?
    Decent size. It would probably take him 5-8 because it's more of a 1 shot jutsu unless on water, like Kakuzu's False Darkness. Black Panther was never shown to have any capabilities as defense, it's an offensive move.

    Water Wall, and wall techniques in general seem almost universal for proficient users of the more defensive elements. Kakashi has Water AND Earth Wall, Hiruzen had Earth Wall, ALL of those guys who got dominated by the Sandaime Raikage had Earth Wall, Tobirama has Water Wall, Darui has Water Wall. Mei has a Water Pillar. Kisame doesn't, but then again his fighting style is almost entirely offensive.
    Ok so we agree that it's a good chance Zabuza has Water Wall too because it's almost universal? I don't think this argument is strong enough to decide the winner. Stalemate this.



    We'll see.
    Yes, we will see
     
         

  10. #50
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    Re: Chiyo vs Zabuza

    If this thread is still going on at least change the title to Chiyo vs Zabuza / Darui
     
         

  11. #51
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    Re: Chiyo vs Zabuza

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    Laser Circus wouldn't help Darui see, it's actually not even that bright because it's also mixed with water. Also, do you see Darui randomly using Laser Circus to produce light and randomly hitting Zabuza? Even if it produces enough light, he doesn't have 2 eyes behind his head, Zabuza will always strike behind you, no matter where you turn, no matter where you go. Lights won't help Darui I'm telling you.
    Zabuza isn't ALWAYS behind you, you can't prove that. ^^

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    It's a possibility, but a low one. He can aim what direction the lasers go, like a missle, but it was never shown that the missles could even go behind him in opposite directions.
    Since he can "bend" them around a target, he could "bend" them around himself in a loop.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    I would have to disagree with Zabuza using the same trick. First, Zabuza uses Hidden Mist and Silent Killing, then he uses Water Clone feints mixed with extreme Kenjutsu and Water Prison, and if none of that works he would use large scale suiton techs (Water Dragon and Giant Vortex).
    But do you disagree with Darui being smarter?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    Actually yea I can agree with that, but still we can't assume he knows more jutsu just like we can't assume Guy and Asuma know more ninjutsu when they only shown 3 and less.
    We can assume he at least knows some C, D and E-rank Suiton, he wouldn't have learned Suijinheki as the first thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    Laser Circus would create narrow holes in the mist, but then it would fill in very fast because Zabuza makes it very thick.
    Narrow ILLUMINATED holes in the mist, which could help with visibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    Decent size. It would probably take him 5-8 because it's more of a 1 shot jutsu unless on water, like Kakuzu's False Darkness. Black Panther was never shown to have any capabilities as defense, it's an offensive move.
    I figure people can control the direction of Elemental Blasts pretty well, so Darui could make a single Black Panther cover a lot of ground. And a gigantic Panther of Black Lightning would be a PRETTY good distraction, enabling Darui to use more or condense the mist into a cup-sized Water Wall.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    Ok so we agree that it's a good chance Zabuza has Water Wall too because it's almost universal? I don't think this argument is strong enough to decide the winner. Stalemate this.
    BUT, Darui wouldn't be overwhelmed easily by Zabuza's Suiton as he's very familiar with the element himself, and he COULD use Water Wall to thin the mist, if that's possible, and it seems likely to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    Yes, we will see
    You seem to have picked THIS matchup as your Final Stand.
     
         
    Last edited by Piratefish; 11-27-2012 at 06:35 PM.

  12. #52
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    Re: Chiyo vs Zabuza

    Zabuza isn't ALWAYS behind you, you can't prove that. ^^
    Actually I can, every enemy he attacked/killed, he was behind. The leaf ninja from that flashback which was in manga, when Sasuke, Naruto, and Sakura were in a manji formation, he went in the middle behind all of their backs, and before he slashed Kakashi in the second battle he appeared behind Sakura and Tazuna's back. It's implied he always sneaks up behind you hidden in the mist, and then using silent killing. Its just what he does.


    Since he can "bend" them around a target, he could "bend" them around himself in a loop.
    Ok, then why did you ask me? And dude, he's not using Laser Circus as a defense, how do you know the Executioner Blade with it's length and width can't cut through one? Even if he could, Water Clones would give away that Darui has something up his sleeve to react, and when Silent Killing doesn't work, Zabuza will use his large scale suiton techs, as shown when it didnt work against Kakashi, and swoop Darui away with the Giant Vortex.

    Dude, now you're trying to find any argument you can think of. Darui has never even shown to send lasers behind him and it was never shown that the lasers have defense shields.


    But do you disagree with Darui being smarter?
    No Darui is smarter, but with all of Zabuza's tactics, he is going to have to analyze everything, and he cant analyze what he cant see and whats going on. For example, when the mist is up, it provides a chance for Zabuza to use Water Clones in the mist without the opponent knowing. So since Darui will lack knowledge of this, he will be outsmarted/beated out just like Kakashi was because the mist.


    We can assume he at least knows some C, D and E-rank Suiton, he wouldn't have learned Suijinheki as the first thing.
    Actually he would have learned Water Wall as a first thing because he was already talented with Suiton, unlike Zabuza who wasnt born with a KG involving Suiton, so Darui is was already on another level from square one, skipping the weaker techs that are learned to gain more control with chakra for Suiton.

    BTW there are no such things as E-rank suiton techs and the only D-rank water tech is Hidden Mist Jutsu. And this argument really doesnt matter.



    Narrow ILLUMINATED holes in the mist, which could help with visibility.
    Yes but holes that would get filled up in a matter of seconds because of the thickness of the mist. And its not even proven that they would make holes in the mist, probably just swish and make movement in the mist's air because of the speed.

    I figure people can control the direction of Elemental Blasts pretty well, so Darui could make a single Black Panther cover a lot of ground. And a gigantic Panther of Black Lightning would be a PRETTY good distraction, enabling Darui to use more or condense the mist into a cup-sized Water Wall.
    No! You can't "figure" anything, we need facts. And Black Panther will not cover a lot of ground because it was shown as a narrow 1 shot technique with the speed it travels unless its on water. You can't say he can spread black panther out and produce lightning everywhere when we havnt even seen his complete control over chakra. And dude now seriously what the hell! Now you are saying that Darui's going to turn the mist into a cup sized Water Wall??? Dude, enough of these weak assumptions and theories. No one will ever agree that Darui will do that. And the mist is filled with Zabuza's chakra, so based on your logic, Zabuza can just control the mist and not allow it to be turned into water by Darui's chakra.

    BUT, Darui wouldn't be overwhelmed easily by Zabuza's Suiton as he's very familiar with the element himself, and he COULD use Water Wall to thin the mist, if that's possible, and it seems likely to me.
    Zabuza got overwhelmed by his own Giant Vortex Jutsu and hes very familiar with Suiton, it doesnt matter how "familiar" you are with Suiton. And what does that even mean to you??? To dodge Suiton techs, you need strength, power, and reflexes, being "familiar" with Suiton only means you know the element well with chakra nature and how to control it, nothing more, nothing less.

    You seem to have picked THIS matchup as your Final Stand.
    Dude I don't want to be offensive here, but I lost a lot of respect with your arguments because they are getting to the point of you saying Darui will turn Zabuza's mist into cup sized water and all of these theories that have not even come close to being proven. The problem is that with debating, a majority of things said are have go be facts, not theories and assumptions. I have included all facts, which proves that there is more solid evidence for Zabuza winning.

    Sorry, but you have to admit your not even naming facts anymore and your theories are off.
     
         

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    Re: Chiyo vs Zabuza

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    Actually I can, every enemy he attacked/killed, he was behind. The leaf ninja from that flashback which was in manga, when Sasuke, Naruto, and Sakura were in a manji formation, he went in the middle behind all of their backs, and before he slashed Kakashi in the second battle he appeared behind Sakura and Tazuna's back. It's implied he always sneaks up behind you hidden in the mist, and then using silent killing. Its just what he does.
    So when IN THE MIST he attacks from the most obvious direction? That won't help him too much against large-scale Raiton or Ranton.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    Ok, then why did you ask me? And dude, he's not using Laser Circus as a defense, how do you know the Executioner Blade with it's length and width can't cut through one? Even if he could, Water Clones would give away that Darui has something up his sleeve to react, and when Silent Killing doesn't work, Zabuza will use his large scale suiton techs, as shown when it didnt work against Kakashi, and swoop Darui away with the Giant Vortex.

    Dude, now you're trying to find any argument you can think of. Darui has never even shown to send lasers behind him and it was never shown that the lasers have defense shields.
    My focus, in the last few posts, have been to demonstrate possible tactics Darui can use to deal with the mist with creative use of his canon abilities, because the mist is the ONLY chance Zabuza has of winning this battle.

    Kenjutsu: Zabuza >= Darui
    Zabuza PROBABLY has the advantage. But it IS possible Darui can damage the Kubikiri Hocho if they fight long enough, which would render Zabuza's only VERY slight advantage moot. This WON'T be the deciding factor in any case, regardless of whether you agree on the last point.

    Ninjutsu: Zabuza < Darui
    ANY of Zabuza's attacks can be slowed down enough with a simple Water Wall enough for Darui to dodge, not even mentioning the opportunity presented by the 40-OR-SO seals required for a Water Dragon:

    Darui has Ranton, which would be hard for Zabuza to counter if at all possible, and Black Lightning, which if Zabuza doesn't have some sort of Water tech in the way of WILL destroy him.

    Stamina: Zabuza < Darui
    Darui has been using the SAGE OF THE SIX PATHS' PERSONAL ITEMS FOR EXTENDED PERIODS. Even AFTER fighting for a good while. Darui indisputably has the edge.

    Intelligence: Zabuza < Darui
    Darui is smarter. Zabuza's only advantage here is how his Kirigakure no jutsu allows him to take control of the battlefield. He has no other edge.

    With all this in mind, I've been focusing on anti-mist tactics. Any other type of battle will result in Zabuza's loss.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    No Darui is smarter, but with all of Zabuza's tactics, he is going to have to analyze everything, and he cant analyze what he cant see and whats going on. For example, when the mist is up, it provides a chance for Zabuza to use Water Clones in the mist without the opponent knowing. So since Darui will lack knowledge of this, he will be outsmarted/beated out just like Kakashi was because the mist.
    Yes, the mist COULD result in Darui's loss. Which is why I've been focusing on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    Actually he would have learned Water Wall as a first thing because he was already talented with Suiton, unlike Zabuza who wasnt born with a KG involving Suiton, so Darui is was already on another level from square one, skipping the weaker techs that are learned to gain more control with chakra for Suiton.

    BTW there are no such things as E-rank suiton techs and the only D-rank water tech is Hidden Mist Jutsu. And this argument really doesnt matter.
    Guess not.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    Yes but holes that would get filled up in a matter of seconds because of the thickness of the mist. And its not even proven that they would make holes in the mist, probably just swish and make movement in the mist's air because of the speed.
    "Holes" wasn't really the point of my point, LIGHT was.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    No! You can't "figure" anything, we need facts. And Black Panther will not cover a lot of ground because it was shown as a narrow 1 shot technique with the speed it travels unless its on water. You can't say he can spread black panther out and produce lightning everywhere when we havnt even seen his complete control over chakra. And dude now seriously what the hell! Now you are saying that Darui's going to turn the mist into a cup sized Water Wall??? Dude, enough of these weak assumptions and theories. No one will ever agree that Darui will do that. And the mist is filled with Zabuza's chakra, so based on your logic, Zabuza can just control the mist and not allow it to be turned into water by Darui's chakra.
    I wasn't talking about spreading the Black Panther out, though that WOULD probably be EASIER than keeping it concentrated. Rather I was focusing on it being "led" in a pattern to optimise the amount of ground a single technique could cover.

    ANY "Elemental Animal" attack is capable of being given direction to some extent.

    Zabuza's and Kakashi's Dragon clash are shown to be directed for fighting the opponents' dragon:


    Kakashi's Lightning Hound zigzags to Pein to evade possible counterattacks:


    Kirin (KIRIN!) being focused on a target:


    With all this in mind, it should be pretty obvious that Black Panther need not only move in a straight line. If Sasuke can direct a LIGHTNING STRIKE, Darui can direct his own lightning is more complex patterns.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    Zabuza got overwhelmed by his own Giant Vortex Jutsu and hes very familiar with Suiton, it doesnt matter how "familiar" you are with Suiton. And what does that even mean to you??? To dodge Suiton techs, you need strength, power, and reflexes, being "familiar" with Suiton only means you know the element well with chakra nature and how to control it, nothing more, nothing less.
    Yes. It does. Zabuza chose to initiate a jutsu-clash against Sharingan Kakashi, and was overpowered. He chose more-or-less the WORST tactical decision he could have made. Zabuza's familiarity with Suiton means he presumably has a counter for his own techniques, if only through watching how his enemies survived them. Having Suiton techs means you KNOW what they CAN do, and when fighting a fairly traditional ninjutsu-user like Zabuza, it should be easy enough for Darui to evade his attacks. Not least through simply using a faster attack while Zabuza speeds through around forty seals.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    Dude I don't want to be offensive here, but I lost a lot of respect with your arguments because they are getting to the point of you saying Darui will turn Zabuza's mist into cup sized water and all of these theories that have not even come close to being proven. The problem is that with debating, a majority of things said are have go be facts, not theories and assumptions. I have included all facts, which proves that there is more solid evidence for Zabuza winning.

    Sorry, but you have to admit your not even naming facts anymore and your theories are off.
    Darui using Zabuza's mist as fuel for his own techniques to disperse it is another POSSIBLE COUNTER.

    Now, do I have facts enough for you?
     
         

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    Re: Chiyo vs Zabuza

    So when IN THE MIST he attacks from the most obvious direction? That won't help him too much against large-scale Raiton or Ranton.
    Poor, poor argument. If Darui turns around to look behind him, as I said, Zabuza's always going behind you, once you turn, he turns. Why do you think he was so feared as the Demon of the Hidden Mist? Also, large-scale Raiton or Ranton wont help Darui sensing, sorry buddy.

    My focus, in the last few posts, have been to demonstrate possible tactics Darui can use to deal with the mist with creative use of his canon abilities, because the mist is the ONLY chance Zabuza has of winning this battle.

    Kenjutsu: Zabuza >= Darui
    Zabuza PROBABLY has the advantage. But it IS possible Darui can damage the Kubikiri Hocho if they fight long enough, which would render Zabuza's only VERY slight advantage moot. This WON'T be the deciding factor in any case, regardless of whether you agree on the last point.

    Ninjutsu: Zabuza < Darui
    ANY of Zabuza's attacks can be slowed down enough with a simple Water Wall enough for Darui to dodge, not even mentioning the opportunity presented by the 40-OR-SO seals required for a Water Dragon:

    Darui has Ranton, which would be hard for Zabuza to counter if at all possible, and Black Lightning, which if Zabuza doesn't have some sort of Water tech in the way of WILL destroy him.

    Stamina: Zabuza < Darui
    Darui has been using the SAGE OF THE SIX PATHS' PERSONAL ITEMS FOR EXTENDED PERIODS. Even AFTER fighting for a good while. Darui indisputably has the edge.

    Intelligence: Zabuza < Darui
    Darui is smarter. Zabuza's only advantage here is how his Kirigakure no jutsu allows him to take control of the battlefield. He has no other edge.

    With all this in mind, I've been focusing on anti-mist tactics. Any other type of battle will result in Zabuza's loss.
    Doesn't matter if the mist is his "ONLY" chance, Laser Circus is Darui's "ONLY" chance.

    Kenjutsu - No Zabuza is a legendary Swordsman of the Hidden Mist (noted best generation), and put Kakashi on the defensive side with engaged even with his Sharingan, Darui doesn't come close to Zabuza's solid skill, he wields his blade like butter. Darui using lightning, enhancing his sword is the only thing he gots going for him, so IF he damages the sword, since Zabuza is more skilled, he can draw the blood to then rebuild it before it gets damaged to the point it snaps. And as this process continues, Zabuza's sword keeps rebuilding, Darui keeps using his chakra, and more injured, Zabuza would be in favor in Kenjutsu. Period.

    Ninjutsu - His raiton against Zabuza's water techs are useless, as said before, when Black Lightning hits water, it conducts into it, if it hits Giant Vortex or Water Dragon, it gets conducted into it making it even more stronger. Then we have Zabuza's Water Clones that can be used for defense and the Hidden Mist Jutsu for defense aswell, blocking all of Daruis techs, then theres Water Prison. I agree that Darui's techs are stronger, well some, but its actually fairly close. Water Clone and Water Prison = Water Wall and Emotion Wave, Water Dragon and Giant Vortex = Black Lightning and Black Panther (If u dont believe me check out GV in manga) and Laser Circus = Hidden Mist + Silent Killing, in terms of effective power.

    Stamina - Agreed, however doesnt matter, he cant sense.

    Intelligence - Agreed, however stop making mist sound like an only thing, take away Madara and Sasuke's Sharingan, what do you got? It's their trump card.

    Yes, the mist COULD result in Darui's loss. Which is why I've been focusing on it.
    Yup

    Guess not.
    Mmhm


    "Holes" wasn't really the point of my point, LIGHT was.
    Light isnt going to work, how does producing light give away Zabuza, when Kakashi used Lightning Blade, a great source of light, and Sakura and Tazuna could even see it when they were what 30 feet away? Which is highly likely the distance Zabuza will be. Dude, light isnt even an argument lets drop it to save time, really.



    I wasn't talking about spreading the Black Panther out, though that WOULD probably be EASIER than keeping it concentrated. Rather I was focusing on it being "led" in a pattern to optimise the amount of ground a single technique could cover.

    ANY "Elemental Animal" attack is capable of being given direction to some extent.

    Zabuza's and Kakashi's Dragon clash are shown to be directed for fighting the opponents' dragon:


    Kakashi's Lightning Hound zigzags to Pein to evade possible counterattacks:


    Kirin (KIRIN!) being focused on a target:


    With all this in mind, it should be pretty obvious that Black Panther need not only move in a straight line. If Sasuke can direct a LIGHTNING STRIKE, Darui can direct his own lightning is more complex patterns.
    I never said Black Panther can only go in a straight line.....and since Darui can't sense where Zabuza is, Black Panther can't aim and hit him. Also, if Darui spreads out Black Lightning and not have it concentrated, its going to be weak, barely hurting Zabuza.

    It's not even clarified Darui can even do that, so we cant assume he can or even will.

    Yes. It does. Zabuza chose to initiate a jutsu-clash against Sharingan Kakashi, and was overpowered. He chose more-or-less the WORST tactical decision he could have made. Zabuza's familiarity with Suiton means he presumably has a counter for his own techniques, if only through watching how his enemies survived them. Having Suiton techs means you KNOW what they CAN do, and when fighting a fairly traditional ninjutsu-user like Zabuza, it should be easy enough for Darui to evade his attacks. Not least through simply using a faster attack while Zabuza speeds through around forty seals.
    You don't think through your arguments! Zabuza didn't just get hit by his own jutsu, you're describing it as some random Suiton user used Giant Vortex Jutsu on him, however, it was Kakashi who caught Zabuza off guard by making a genjutsu illusion, then entering his mind to read the handsigns for the tech. Thats how Zabuza got hit. Not that Zabuza wasn't "familiar" that is such a weak argument.

    BTW, Zabuza will have plenty of time to make his seals because he would be doing them hidden in the mist, you know because Darui cant sense him so Darui will be hit directly not knowing/seeing whats coming so not giving him enough time to use Water Wall to slow it down.


    Darui using Zabuza's mist as fuel for his own techniques to disperse it is another POSSIBLE COUNTER.
    For the last time, it's not a possible counter! Ok, I'm going to argue like you, Darui cannot use Zabuza's mist for his own Suiton techs because Zabuza's mist is made up from his chakra, so if Darui tries to use it, Zabuza wont let him and keep hold of his chakra. See, theres a argument that counters, that you cant counter because there is no proof.

    Now, do I have facts enough for you?
    Not even close
     
         

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    Re: Chiyo vs Zabuza

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    Poor, poor argument. If Darui turns around to look behind him, as I said, Zabuza's always going behind you, once you turn, he turns. Why do you think he was so feared as the Demon of the Hidden Mist? Also, large-scale Raiton or Ranton wont help Darui sensing, sorry buddy.
    Darui isn't slow in terms of reaction-time:

    Even other jounin, like Atsui and Samui, are overwhelmed by the sudden flames. If Darui has prior warning, like the slightest flash of motion in the corner of his eye, or the not-quite-silent sounds of a Water Dragon or similar, he won't be mortally injured. And Zabuza will be open for a counterattack.

    At some point, Zabuza or a clone will have commit to an attack. At that point he will, predictably, attack from behind. Any Raiton aimed behing Darui quickly enough would thus hit Zabuza. Large scale Raiton or Ranton do not help sensing. However they do to a degree remove need to, since they're large enough not to need to even aim if your target is close enough:


    If Zabuza is even behind Darui, he WILL be hit.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    Doesn't matter if the mist is his "ONLY" chance, Laser Circus is Darui's "ONLY" chance.
    No. Any engagement outside the mist ends in Darui's favour.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    Kenjutsu - No Zabuza is a legendary Swordsman of the Hidden Mist (noted best generation), and put Kakashi on the defensive side with engaged even with his Sharingan, Darui doesn't come close to Zabuza's solid skill, he wields his blade like butter. Darui using lightning, enhancing his sword is the only thing he gots going for him, so IF he damages the sword, since Zabuza is more skilled, he can draw the blood to then rebuild it before it gets damaged to the point it snaps. And as this process continues, Zabuza's sword keeps rebuilding, Darui keeps using his chakra, and more injured, Zabuza would be in favor in Kenjutsu. Period.
    Zabuza is one of Seven Swordsmen. Darui is perhaps the single strongest ninja in the Hidden Cloud behind A and Killerbee. Before he was HANDPICKED by the THIRD RAIKAGE to learn Black Lightning techniques, all he knew was kenjutsu and Ranton, and presumably some Rai and Suiton. Assuming Zabuza outmatches him like this is foolish. Also, you apparently ignored Darui's superior stamina: The man has NO problem wielding the Sage's artifacts for a fair amount of time AFTER fighting long enough, and using large enough techniques, to tire out Zabura. A mere kenjutsu duel while mainting a Lightning Current won't tire him out.

    Zabuza has enough control of the battle to wound Darui at will?

    Please.

    Darui has never NOT overwhelmed his opponents in kenjutsu, quickly dominating Suigetsu (who was praised by Kisame) and disarming (literally) the KinGin brothers:


    He's also VERY quick with Ranton, which is near enough impossible to dodge or block:

    That last panel? That's Ranton closing in.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    Ninjutsu - His raiton against Zabuza's water techs are useless, as said before, when Black Lightning hits water, it conducts into it, if it hits Giant Vortex or Water Dragon, it gets conducted into it making it even more stronger. Then we have Zabuza's Water Clones that can be used for defense and the Hidden Mist Jutsu for defense aswell, blocking all of Daruis techs, then theres Water Prison. I agree that Darui's techs are stronger, well some, but its actually fairly close. Water Clone and Water Prison = Water Wall and Emotion Wave, Water Dragon and Giant Vortex = Black Lightning and Black Panther (If u dont believe me check out GV in manga) and Laser Circus = Hidden Mist + Silent Killing, in terms of effective power.
    If BL hits water it conducts into it, meaning ANY body of water is unsafe for Zabuza. And Zabuza is very fond of using Suiton techs (even against reknowed Raiton specialists) so it's more than possible he will.

    Ranton is FAR faster than any of Zabuza's water techs, and much more precise and lethal.

    The Hidden Mist jutsu doesn't block, it conceals. Water Clones are only as durable as shadow clones, if that. Assuming they can block ANY of Darui's attacks is foolish. Water Prison is ineffective, as it's too obvious if Zabuza tries to use it while on land, and will open him up to Black Panther if he's on/in water.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    Stamina - Agreed, however doesnt matter, he cant sense.
    Agreed and apparently ignored in the kenjutsu section. He can react and dodge. He can counterattack QUICKLY if he survives. He WILL land the counterattack if Zabuza stays close enough (and probably even if he backtracks as soon as possible), which he always does.

    Darui can use MANY large-scale techniques in this battle, Zabuza can't.

    Darui's (not quite reached) limit: 2 Ranton blasts, 1 Black Panther, extended use of two of the Sage's artifacts. As well as some close-range combat.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    Intelligence - Agreed, however stop making mist sound like an only thing, take away Madara and Sasuke's Sharingan, what do you got? It's their trump card.
    Well, isn't it the only thing that enables him to even approach Darui in combat?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    Light isnt going to work, how does producing light give away Zabuza, when Kakashi used Lightning Blade, a great source of light, and Sakura and Tazuna could even see it when they were what 30 feet away? Which is highly likely the distance Zabuza will be. Dude, light isnt even an argument lets drop it to save time, really.
    Not sure if Raikiri and Laser Circus provide the same amount of illumination:


    You're seriously comparing Wave Arc Sakura and Tazuna to Darui in terms of observational skill? Sakura couldn't even follow WEIGHTLESS LEE with her eyes. Darui is FAR more observant than her, and Tazuna is a joke.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    I never said Black Panther can only go in a straight line.....and since Darui can't sense where Zabuza is, Black Panther can't aim and hit him. Also, if Darui spreads out Black Lightning and not have it concentrated, its going to be weak, barely hurting Zabuza.
    He's not aiming to hit Zabuza; he's aiming to eliminate places Zabuza can hide, to box him in.

    Black Panther, even when HEAVILY diluted through entering seawater, was more than enough to KILL a LARGE force of Zetsu's:

    While Zabuza is more durable than a Zetsu, he's still human. If he's even grazed by the main body of the Panther, Darui has won. If he stands on water, Darui has won. If he is hit by a larger, more diluted form of the Panther (more than possible that Darui has this) he is AT THE VERY LEAST paralyzed.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    It's not even clarified Darui can even do that, so we cant assume he can or even will.
    He CAN move Black Panther in a controlled arc towards water. I'm convinced he can give it more complex directions. There's no reason at all to believe he can't.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    You don't think through your arguments! Zabuza didn't just get hit by his own jutsu, you're describing it as some random Suiton user used Giant Vortex Jutsu on him, however, it was Kakashi who caught Zabuza off guard by making a genjutsu illusion, then entering his mind to read the handsigns for the tech. Thats how Zabuza got hit. Not that Zabuza wasn't "familiar" that is such a weak argument.
    Zabuza got hit by a hypnotic suggestion from Kakashi that he was to use a Suiton Kakashi already knew. HE chose to continue with the seals even after he saw Kakashi was faster.

    Not saying Zabuza isn't familiar with Suiton. In fact he is, as any Suiton user of a certain level has a rough idea of what can be accomplished by Suiton. Darui comes under this as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    BTW, Zabuza will have plenty of time to make his seals because he would be doing them hidden in the mist, you know because Darui cant sense him so Darui will be hit directly not knowing/seeing whats coming so not giving him enough time to use Water Wall to slow it down.
    If he's not in the mist, he won't have time to complete his ninjutsu. If he's in the mist, there's still a large opening for Darui to do something during the time he's forming seals, and maybe even enough time to form a Water Wall even AFTER Zabuza has finished casting as his techs arent exactly silent.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    For the last time, it's not a possible counter! Ok, I'm going to argue like you, Darui cannot use Zabuza's mist for his own Suiton techs because Zabuza's mist is made up from his chakra, so if Darui tries to use it, Zabuza wont let him and keep hold of his chakra. See, theres a argument that counters, that you cant counter because there is no proof.
    Excellent, that is EXACTLY what I was looking for.

    Additionally, are the combatants allowed to use EVERY tool they have used in the manga? If so, Darui has the Benihisago, Kohaku no Jōhei and Shichiseiken available, which turn this thing from something approaching an actual battle to a stomp.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    Not even close
    You're not exactly impressive here yourself...
     
         

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    Re: Chiyo vs Zabuza

    Darui isn't slow in terms of reaction-time:

    Even other jounin, like Atsui and Samui, are overwhelmed by the sudden flames. If Darui has prior warning, like the slightest flash of motion in the corner of his eye, or the not-quite-silent sounds of a Water Dragon or similar, he won't be mortally injured. And Zabuza will be open for a counterattack.

    At some point, Zabuza or a clone will have commit to an attack. At that point he will, predictably, attack from behind. Any Raiton aimed behing Darui quickly enough would thus hit Zabuza. Large scale Raiton or Ranton do not help sensing. However they do to a degree remove need to, since they're large enough not to need to even aim if your target is close enough:


    If Zabuza is even behind Darui, he WILL be hit.
    This is still a weak argument. Darui does have good reaction time, I have never said that he didn't. However, that reaction in that scan is a good example of hand eye/eye coordination, when the eyes see something which signals the brain to move parts of the body to react to something. With the Hidden Mist Jutsu, it takes away that eye hand/eye coordination, which will slow his movements and make it harder to dodge Zabuza than that Ninjutsu the Gold and Silver Brothers used in that scan. Which brings me to my next argument that when you were saying that Darui, having great reflexes, doesn't need sensing abilities because he is just so amazing and fast that he can react to Zabuza's assassination attacks, even having enough time to perform handseals, and attack Zabuza from behind and kill him. That was the summary of what you just said and it sounds so unlikely and absurd I call it fairy tale. Also, how does Darui reacting to Zabuza's Water Dragon for afar hidden in the mist leave him open for a counter attack when Darui will be busy regaining balance while Zabuza is still on the pursuit? Dude, comon.

    You need more information on the 3 tomoe Sharingan, I don't think, actually I know your underestimating it's capabilities. The Sharingan is such a strong dojutsu that enhances a users reflexesto a point that Sasuke was able to dodge The 4th Raikage's brutal attack with his speed comparable to the 4th Hokage, Minato Namikaze, and strike him with Chidori. Kakashi possesses this Sharingan, and he could barely keep up and was getting kicked around. You've seen how the 6 other Swordsmen were very good at Silent Killing, well Kakashi stated, "No one comes close to Zabuza's Silent Killing" implying he is that good and fast with this fighting style it's very, very hard to dodge. You saying Darui having good enough reflexes to react to Zabuza when Kakashi with his Sharingan barely could, is just ridiculously ignorant.

    No. Any engagement outside the mist ends in Darui's favour.
    Not Kenjutsu, but Ninjutsu yes I can agree with that.

    Zabuza is one of Seven Swordsmen. Darui is perhaps the single strongest ninja in the Hidden Cloud behind A and Killerbee. Before he was HANDPICKED by the THIRD RAIKAGE to learn Black Lightning techniques, all he knew was kenjutsu and Ranton, and presumably some Rai and Suiton. Assuming Zabuza outmatches him like this is foolish. Also, you apparently ignored Darui's superior stamina: The man has NO problem wielding the Sage's artifacts for a fair amount of time AFTER fighting long enough, and using large enough techniques, to tire out Zabura. A mere kenjutsu duel while mainting a Lightning Current won't tire him out.

    Zabuza has enough control of the battle to wound Darui at will?

    Please.

    Darui has never NOT overwhelmed his opponents in kenjutsu, quickly dominating Suigetsu (who was praised by Kisame) and disarming (literally) the KinGin brothers:


    He's also VERY quick with Ranton, which is near enough impossible to dodge or block:

    That last panel? That's Ranton closing in.
    Stop using unnecessary scans to make it look like you have a better idea of what your saying, I already know what Darui has done and seen what happened, I read the manga.

    Don't overrate Darui by saying he has NO problem for using the SOSP Treasured Tools, when he felt the impact on his chakra levels after using it and it tired him out a lot.

    Yea, in the mist Zabuza does have enough control to wound Darui at will, Darui has no sensing abilities, it's Zabuza's little game which Darui will lose to.

    If BL hits water it conducts into it, meaning ANY body of water is unsafe for Zabuza. And Zabuza is very fond of using Suiton techs (even against reknowed Raiton specialists) so it's more than possible he will.

    Ranton is FAR faster than any of Zabuza's water techs, and much more precise and lethal.

    The Hidden Mist jutsu doesn't block, it conceals. Water Clones are only as durable as shadow clones, if that. Assuming they can block ANY of Darui's attacks is foolish. Water Prison is ineffective, as it's too obvious if Zabuza tries to use it while on land, and will open him up to Black Panther if he's on/in water.
    If Zabuza performs Giant Vortex Jutsu while standing on water, the mist is still up, Darui still can't sense, why do you think if Zabuza uses large scale Suiton techs there is no mist? Darui in the mist will have no way of knowing where Zabuza is, all he will hear is this large tunneling Suiton Attack coming at it, and if he has enough time to perform BL and hit it, its going to conduct through and hit Darui with even greater force, and kill him. It won't hit Zabuza because Giant Vortex extends and keeps going forward, hence the name, so if it does have the incredible power to keep traveling back to Zabuza, even going the opposite direction of a "Giant Vortex", then that gives Zabuza more than enough time to jump off the water, hearing the electrical current coming towards him.

    Assuming Darui can react enough in the mist, having such reflexes comparable to the Sharingan, giving him enough time to react to Zabuza's Water Clone feints is foolish. And if he can react he will eventually be tricked like Kakashi was and then its Water Prison time because if Darui is tricked and open to a counter attack, he wont have time to activate BL. And I never said Hidden mist is a "blocking" move, I said defensive.

    Agreed and apparently ignored in the kenjutsu section. He can react and dodge. He can counterattack QUICKLY if he survives. He WILL land the counterattack if Zabuza stays close enough (and probably even if he backtracks as soon as possible), which he always does.

    Darui can use MANY large-scale techniques in this battle, Zabuza can't.

    Darui's (not quite reached) limit: 2 Ranton blasts, 1 Black Panther, extended use of two of the Sage's artifacts. As well as some close-range combat.
    As I stated earlier in this message, his reflexes won't be good enough, thus not allowing him a counter attack. And doesnt matter how many large scale attacks Darui can throw out, they wont help in the mist. Also, Zabuza can do a good amount of large scale techs too, I mean, he does have very good chakra levels aswell, not as good as Darui though.


    Well, isn't it the only thing that enables him to even approach Darui in combat?
    Its Zabuza's only chance in winning, but without mist Zabuza would still put up a fight, losing though.

    Not sure if Raikiri and Laser Circus provide the same amount of illumination:


    You're seriously comparing Wave Arc Sakura and Tazuna to Darui in terms of observational skill? Sakura couldn't even follow WEIGHTLESS LEE with her eyes. Darui is FAR more observant than her, and Tazuna is a joke.
    Kakashi's Lightning Blade is similiar color....and is Laser Circus makes light in the mist, its still blury! It wont even give Zabuza away that is such a weak argument, one that I never even heard of, even from some of the most logical guys on here.

    Im not saying Sakura's and Tazuna's observation skills are better than Darui's, Im saying eyes are eyes, and there vision dont change for normal ninja, not like dojutsu users.

    He's not aiming to hit Zabuza; he's aiming to eliminate places Zabuza can hide, to box him in.

    Black Panther, even when HEAVILY diluted through entering seawater, was more than enough to KILL a LARGE force of Zetsu's:

    While Zabuza is more durable than a Zetsu, he's still human. If he's even grazed by the main body of the Panther, Darui has won. If he stands on water, Darui has won. If he is hit by a larger, more diluted form of the Panther (more than possible that Darui has this) he is AT THE VERY LEAST paralyzed.
    If he is going to "box" Zabuza in, then the attack needs to come from the outside of the mist and then close in to bring Zabuza towards Darui, however it was shown Black Lightning spreads out FROM Darui so that is an invalid argument, and actually will move Zabuza further away, leaving nothing of an advantage for Darui. If Zabuza is hit directly by Black Panther, yes I agree, he is at least paralyzed, I never said it wouldnt have that effect on him.

    He CAN move Black Panther in a controlled arc towards water. I'm convinced he can give it more complex directions. There's no reason at all to believe he can't.

    I mean...he was right infront of the water...it wasnt an impressive aim.... And true he probably can move it in more complex directions like Water Dragon Jutsu, but if he cant aim it at Zabuza, it wont even matter.


    Zabuza got hit by a hypnotic suggestion from Kakashi that he was to use a Suiton Kakashi already knew. HE chose to continue with the seals even after he saw Kakashi was faster.

    Not saying Zabuza isn't familiar with Suiton. In fact he is, as any Suiton user of a certain level has a rough idea of what can be accomplished by Suiton. Darui comes under this as well.
    Actually, it wasnt a jutsu Kakashi already knew, as Zabuza stated in the manga, "He's copied my jutsu before I could even do it, I can keep up!", Kakashi entered and read Zabuza's mind to use that technique, thus allowing him to do the handseals at the same time.

    And Zabuza didn't continue with his handseals....he stopped in the middle being confused over Kakashi's genjutsu while Kakashi continued with the seals, get your facts straight brotha.

    If he's not in the mist, he won't have time to complete his ninjutsu. If he's in the mist, there's still a large opening for Darui to do something during the time he's forming seals, and maybe even enough time to form a Water Wall even AFTER Zabuza has finished casting as his techs arent exactly silent.
    I wouldnt say there is a large opening, however with Darui's intelligence, I would agree him hearing a Water Dragon coming at him would be able to put up a Water Wall in time.

    Excellent, that is EXACTLY what I was looking for.

    Additionally, are the combatants allowed to use EVERY tool they have used in the manga? If so, Darui has the Benihisago, Kohaku no Jōhei and Shichiseiken available, which turn this thing from something approaching an actual battle to a stomp.
    No because a majority of the Tools got sealed and or in Tobi's possession, besides the Banana Fan which Tenten was seen using last, not showing Darui recovering it so he doesnt have them.

    You're not exactly impressive here yourself...
    Yea ok
     
         

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    Re: Chiyo vs Zabuza

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    This is still a weak argument. Darui does have good reaction time, I have never said that he didn't. However, that reaction in that scan is a good example of hand eye/eye coordination, when the eyes see something which signals the brain to move parts of the body to react to something. With the Hidden Mist Jutsu, it takes away that eye hand/eye coordination, which will slow his movements and make it harder to dodge Zabuza than that Ninjutsu the Gold and Silver Brothers used in that scan. Which brings me to my next argument that when you were saying that Darui, having great reflexes, doesn't need sensing abilities because he is just so amazing and fast that he can react to Zabuza's assassination attacks, even having enough time to perform handseals, and attack Zabuza from behind and kill him. That was the summary of what you just said and it sounds so unlikely and absurd I call it fairy tale. Also, how does Darui reacting to Zabuza's Water Dragon for afar hidden in the mist leave him open for a counter attack when Darui will be busy regaining balance while Zabuza is still on the pursuit? Dude, comon.
    That wasn't, quite, what I was saying. I was saying Darui is fast enough to SURVIVE Zabuza's assault without immediately mortal wounds (are YOU saying that ANY attack Zabuza makes from within the mist INSTANTLY kills him?) and that as Darui is still alive, he can counterattack. And Darui's counters are lethal enough that if they land (as they tend to do) they end the match.

    Here're some scans of Kakashi blocking Zabuza's attacks without seeing ANYTHING (or at least very little beyond his own nose):



    About the Water Dragon, I was saying that it's not soundless (obviously) and thus not SUCH a good idea inside the mist. It's dodgeable, blockable. Why do you think Zabuza waited to use it 'till he disengaged his mist?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    You need more information on the 3 tomoe Sharingan, I don't think, actually I know your underestimating it's capabilities. The Sharingan is such a strong dojutsu that enhances a users reflexesto a point that Sasuke was able to dodge The 4th Raikage's brutal attack with his speed comparable to the 4th Hokage, Minato Namikaze, and strike him with Chidori. Kakashi possesses this Sharingan, and he could barely keep up and was getting kicked around. You've seen how the 6 other Swordsmen were very good at Silent Killing, well Kakashi stated, "No one comes close to Zabuza's Silent Killing" implying he is that good and fast with this fighting style it's very, very hard to dodge. You saying Darui having good enough reflexes to react to Zabuza when Kakashi with his Sharingan barely could, is just ridiculously ignorant.
    I think you're overrating it. Here's a list of ninja who have kept up with or outspeeded Kakashi's 3 Tomoe without having speed-enhancements:
    Zabuza
    Haku (he blocked an attack without Kakashi even registering it. TWICE.)
    Base Naruto (Initial Shippuden version)
    Base Sakura (Initial Shippuden version)
    Hidan
    Kakuzu
    Deva Path (INCLUDING whatever delay exists between Nagato's commands and the Paths' reactions)

    So, nearly EVERY enemy Kakashi has fought that didn't posess speed-boosters themselves...

    Here's a list of ninja who WOULD be able to keep up based on feats or reputation:
    Kabuto
    Tsunade
    Orochimaru
    Jiraiya
    Hiruzen

    No, this list would simply take too long. More-or-less ANY Kage or Elite Jounin-level Shinobi can keep up with 3 Tomoe Kakashi to a degree, even without any sort of speed-boost. Darui goes into the Elite Jounin-level category (he's undeniably stronger than Part 1 Kabuto, for example), and so it's more than reasonable that he could at least SURVIVE Zabuza's Silent Killing.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    Not Kenjutsu, but Ninjutsu yes I can agree with that.
    Kenjutsu is a stalemate and would decide nothing but that they should find some other way to do battle. So, essentially, Darui wins here as well. In any case Zabuza has killed no non-fodder ninja with his giant sword, even inside the mist, and Darui has repeatedly landed mortal or debilitating blows against the KinGin and Suigetsu. In terms of actual, proven effectiveness, Darui has the edge.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    Stop using unnecessary scans to make it look like you have a better idea of what your saying, I already know what Darui has done and seen what happened, I read the manga.
    Oh? You've made a few errors, even concerning a fight your favorite character is involved in...

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    Don't overrate Darui by saying he has NO problem for using the SOSP Treasured Tools, when he felt the impact on his chakra levels after using it and it tired him out a lot.
    Did he collapse? Did he stop using them? Did he switch to less chakra-intensive methods of fighting? Did he say, "I'm taking a break" or something to that effect after vanquishing the Brothers, or did he go RIGHT ON FIGHTING?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    Yea, in the mist Zabuza does have enough control to wound Darui at will, Darui has no sensing abilities, it's Zabuza's little game which Darui will lose to.
    Not necessarily, and not without exposing his position. Which could very well be fatal.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    If Zabuza performs Giant Vortex Jutsu while standing on water, the mist is still up, Darui still can't sense, why do you think if Zabuza uses large scale Suiton techs there is no mist? Darui in the mist will have no way of knowing where Zabuza is, all he will hear is this large tunneling Suiton Attack coming at it, and if he has enough time to perform BL and hit it, its going to conduct through and hit Darui with even greater force, and kill him. It won't hit Zabuza because Giant Vortex extends and keeps going forward, hence the name, so if it does have the incredible power to keep traveling back to Zabuza, even going the opposite direction of a "Giant Vortex", then that gives Zabuza more than enough time to jump off the water, hearing the electrical current coming towards him.
    Why would I think Zabuza would use his large Suiton while not covered by the mist?

    Because he NEVER HAS, perhaps? GIANT VORTICES OR DRAGONS ARE NOT SILENT. They REVEAL Zabuza's position. They offer the opportunity to dodge or block on a WAY higher level than a speedy figure closing in from behind. Darui would have little trouble defending himself against these techniques.

    Please DO continue talking about how Black Lightning enhances Zabuza's attacks. I don't think I understand that part quite yet. And it's very likely that Darui would use Water-enhancing attacks against a demonstrated (and well-known) Suiton user.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    Assuming Darui can react enough in the mist, having such reflexes comparable to the Sharingan, giving him enough time to react to Zabuza's Water Clone feints is foolish. And if he can react he will eventually be tricked like Kakashi was and then its Water Prison time because if Darui is tricked and open to a counter attack, he wont have time to activate BL. And I never said Hidden mist is a "blocking" move, I said defensive.
    Well. As I've now demonstrated, Kakashi's Sharingan isn't NEEDED for him to block things in the mist, AND Kakashi's reaction time, even with the fancy eye, isn't unique or unmatched in terms of high-level ninja, like Darui.

    You still seem to think that the mist completely negates every possible attack, with no option one hitting. Which is just unreasonable.

    Interestingly enough, Water channels Lightning, and Lightning-aligned ninja are less susceptible to Lightning-based attacks. So, as Darui has at least one seal-less Raiton, he should be able to escape the Water Prison even if he's captured. And getting trapped in a Water Prison (especially without weaker parties to be used as "bait") is not exactly a matter of time. If both combatants are standing on water, it's equally likely (or more so, he's in general faster with ninjutsu) that Darui will fire off some sort of technique either at Zabuza or at the water in general for a quick immobilization. Which would lead to Zabuza's death.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    As I stated earlier in this message, his reflexes won't be good enough, thus not allowing him a counter attack. And doesnt matter how many large scale attacks Darui can throw out, they wont help in the mist. Also, Zabuza can do a good amount of large scale techs too, I mean, he does have very good chakra levels aswell, not as good as Darui though.
    Oh but they are. At least, he won't be immediately dead. Why do you persist in thinking that NOTHING can POSSIBLY even GRAZE Zabuza while he's in the mist?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    Its Zabuza's only chance in winning, but without mist Zabuza would still put up a fight, losing though.
    Yup.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    Kakashi's Lightning Blade is similiar color....and is Laser Circus makes light in the mist, its still blury! It wont even give Zabuza away that is such a weak argument, one that I never even heard of, even from some of the most logical guys on here.
    Raikiri provides LESS LIGHT THAN LASER CIRCUS. That should be OBVIOUS.

    It provides light. Light provides visual range. Visual range means that Zabuza, or his clones, will be easier to see.

    Naruto-fans aren't exactly reknowed for their understanding of actual, real-world nature. You yourself don't even seem to realize that light makes things easier to see, even when it's misty.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    Im not saying Sakura's and Tazuna's observation skills are better than Darui's, Im saying eyes are eyes, and there vision dont change for normal ninja, not like dojutsu users.
    Kishimoto disagrees:

    Even regular eyes can be trained to break through illusions, and as pretty much EVERY Shippuden fight is faster than Lee was (and HE was faster than sight for non-Sharingan users), it's pretty clear that perception increases DRASTICALLY the higher up in rank you go, and that eyes can be trained to accomplish things which seem impossible. Zabuza HIMSELF has supposedly trained his sight to function even in thick mist (as in the FIRST engagement with Kakashi), though he doesn't NEED to see to be able to fight.

    In the first fight, Zabuza used mist of a lesser density than he later used. It was more easily seen through:

    That's from the second fight. And he has no reason to use the denser version, it's not like he's fighting a Sharingan-user or anything...

    Oddly enough, Kakashi was able to defend Sakura and Tazuna, without them able to tell anything about what was going on:


    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    If he is going to "box" Zabuza in, then the attack needs to come from the outside of the mist and then close in to bring Zabuza towards Darui, however it was shown Black Lightning spreads out FROM Darui so that is an invalid argument, and actually will move Zabuza further away, leaving nothing of an advantage for Darui. If Zabuza is hit directly by Black Panther, yes I agree, he is at least paralyzed, I never said it wouldnt have that effect on him.
    Boxing someone in is a phrase meaning to control someone's positioning (with some nefarious purpose). It has nothing to do with Darui's relative position. If Darui locks down an area with a technique, he knows Zabuza isn't there. Which is of tremendous strategic value.

    If Zabuza is further away, he's not attacking Darui.

    You DID say that a slightly reduced concentration of Black Lightning would have little or no effect. Which is untrue.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    I mean...he was right infront of the water...it wasnt an impressive aim.... And true he probably can move it in more complex directions like Water Dragon Jutsu, but if he cant aim it at Zabuza, it wont even matter.
    If he can't move it at where he KNOWS Zabuza is, but can still move it in the direction Zabuza ACTUALLY IS, despite it not originally moving in that direction, it could hit him unexpectedly. But that's not my point. If he can aim it, he can aim it so it covers more ground, eliminating possible positions Zabuza migh have so that the NEXT attack can hit. Or the one after that. And so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    Actually, it wasnt a jutsu Kakashi already knew, as Zabuza stated in the manga, "He's copied my jutsu before I could even do it, I can keep up!", Kakashi entered and read Zabuza's mind to use that technique, thus allowing him to do the handseals at the same time.
    You ARE aware that reading someone's mind like that isn't actually what happened? Here:


    As Zabuza stated in the manga LATER, it was a hypnotic suggestion to use a jutsu in Kakashi's arsenal.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    And Zabuza didn't continue with his handseals....he stopped in the middle being confused over Kakashi's genjutsu while Kakashi continued with the seals, get your facts straight brotha.
    Well that shows impressive battle tactics now doesn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    I wouldnt say there is a large opening, however with Darui's intelligence, I would agree him hearing a Water Dragon coming at him would be able to put up a Water Wall in time.
    Cool.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEyyy View Post
    No because a majority of the Tools got sealed and or in Tobi's possession, besides the Banana Fan which Tenten was seen using last, not showing Darui recovering it so he doesnt have them.
    Well, Zabuza doesn't exactly have the Kubikiri Hocho in his posession either, but I'll let it slide.
     
         

  18. #58
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    Re: Chiyo vs Zabuza

    That wasn't, quite, what I was saying. I was saying Darui is fast enough to SURVIVE Zabuza's assault without immediately mortal wounds (are YOU saying that ANY attack Zabuza makes from within the mist INSTANTLY kills him?) and that as Darui is still alive, he can counterattack. And Darui's counters are lethal enough that if they land (as they tend to do) they end the match.

    Here're some scans of Kakashi blocking Zabuza's attacks without seeing ANYTHING (or at least very little beyond his own nose):



    About the Water Dragon, I was saying that it's not soundless (obviously) and thus not SUCH a good idea inside the mist. It's dodgeable, blockable. Why do you think Zabuza waited to use it 'till he disengaged his mist?
    Again that is a weak argument. You showed Kakashi reacting to Zabuza's attacks, however Kakashi had a 3 tomoe Sharingan! Kakashi wouldn't even be able to react to Zabuza without his Sharingan and I know this by Kakashi saying before their fight, "If he is our opponent, I'm going to need this (pulls out Sharingan). So Darui, without any enhanced sensing abilities, probably won't die from Zabuza's first attack, but he is going to be greatly injured by a vital spot (Zabuza aims for 8 of them) because of Zabuza's giant sword, so Darui will not be able to jump away freely like he's fine and then be able to use a move to kill Zabuza. There's absolutely no way and if we go by what your saying, about Darui just getting injured but being fine and able to attack again, Darui would just be injured by a Water Clone and then kill the clone, tricking him then leaving Zabuza to finish him off when he's already injured. Seriously why do you think Zabuza was so feared as the Demon of the Hidden Mist? Even Guy was asking, "how do we fight an enemy that we can't see and hear", being as fast as he is, he was even doubting about what he can do and was confused on what to do, even having better and faster reflexes than Darui.

    Oh and Kakashi's eyes were still open, mist doesn't blind you if it's very close, which is how Kakashi hit and blocked away all of the Shuriken thrown at him, so again, invalid argument.

    Zabuza used Water Dragon at the end, not because the mist was gone, but because Zabuza already planned to catch Kakashi in the Water Prison so the Water Dragon Jutsu wasn't needed.

    I think you're overrating it. Here's a list of ninja who have kept up with or outspeeded Kakashi's 3 Tomoe without having speed-enhancements:
    Zabuza
    Haku (he blocked an attack without Kakashi even registering it. TWICE.)
    Base Naruto (Initial Shippuden version)
    Base Sakura (Initial Shippuden version)
    Hidan
    Kakuzu
    Deva Path (INCLUDING whatever delay exists between Nagato's commands and the Paths' reactions)

    So, nearly EVERY enemy Kakashi has fought that didn't posess speed-boosters themselves...

    Here's a list of ninja who WOULD be able to keep up based on feats or reputation:
    Kabuto
    Tsunade
    Orochimaru
    Jiraiya
    Hiruzen

    No, this list would simply take too long. More-or-less ANY Kage or Elite Jounin-level Shinobi can keep up with 3 Tomoe Kakashi to a degree, even without any sort of speed-boost. Darui goes into the Elite Jounin-level category (he's undeniably stronger than Part 1 Kabuto, for example), and so it's more than reasonable that he could at least SURVIVE Zabuza's Silent Killing.
    Everybody you named already has at least a 4/5 for speed in the db, and at least a 4/5 for taijutsu, so with their other feats of course they could keep up. The majority you named were Akatsuki, Hokage's and legendary ninja, so if you're trying to show me I overrate it when you're listing some of the strongest ninja of fall time, that's just stupid. And it doesn't matter if Darui falls in that category, yea of course Darui would be able to keep up with Kakashi, but that's when he can see him, the mist is different. My next argument here relates to my previous argument.

    I could of sworn you said asked me before, "You think Zabuza can hurt Darui at will"...and now your saying he can but Darui won't die from it? Get your argument straight.


    Kenjutsu is a stalemate and would decide nothing but that they should find some other way to do battle. So, essentially, Darui wins here as well. In any case Zabuza has killed no non-fodder ninja with his giant sword, even inside the mist, and Darui has repeatedly landed mortal or debilitating blows against the KinGin and Suigetsu. In terms of actual, proven effectiveness, Darui has the edge.
    I wouldn't say Darui has the edge, Zabuza is a Legendary Swordsmen, that's enough said, but I'll explain. Didn't you see when the Seven Ninja Swordsmen got revived, how feared everybody was? It was probably because they all killed some strong ninja in their time which added to their reputation. Zabuza, being noted the best at Hidden Mist + Silent Killing, it is evident he killed non-fodder people. But I have no proof of this and only going by hype here, so I can't argue this. But I would agree it's a stalemate.


    Oh? You've made a few errors, even concerning a fight your favorite character is involved in...
    What errors? I would like to hear them.

    Did he collapse? Did he stop using them? Did he switch to less chakra-intensive methods of fighting? Did he say, "I'm taking a break" or something to that effect after vanquishing the Brothers, or did he go RIGHT ON FIGHTING?
    1. That's different then saying, "He has NO problem using them" You were overrating there because he did have a problem, it may not be that big but it's still a problem. 2. If I'm not mistaken, wasn't Darui assigned by Shikaku to help fight Kakuzu, but Darui couldn't at the moment because he said he was running low on chakra?

    Not necessarily, and not without exposing his position. Which could very well be fatal.
    Already explained in my previous argument, see above.


    Why would I think Zabuza would use his large Suiton while not covered by the mist?

    Because he NEVER HAS, perhaps? GIANT VORTICES OR DRAGONS ARE NOT SILENT. They REVEAL Zabuza's position. They offer the opportunity to dodge or block on a WAY higher level than a speedy figure closing in from behind. Darui would have little trouble defending himself against these techniques.

    Please DO continue talking about how Black Lightning enhances Zabuza's attacks. I don't think I understand that part quite yet. And it's very likely that Darui would use Water-enhancing attacks against a demonstrated (and well-known) Suiton user.
    He never has, true, but he only did that one time against Kakashi because Kakashi got out of the Water Prison by help. Ok, you think if Zabuza faced a ninja one on one, that if Zabuza wanted to use Giant Vortex Jutsu, he would get rid of the mist first? It doesn't even matter if Darui can hear it, they are both not easy techs to dodge in the first place, and with the mist up making it even harder to dodge is basically a direct hit. Water Dragon Jutsu, in Japanese, Water Dragon Missle, is a jutsu where a giant dragon made of water comes at you, and just like a missle, will move and adjust to where you are, even when you move. So how is Darui dodging that in mist? We don't even know if he would have enough time to put of Water Wall. And Giant Vortex Jutsu is so great of a technique Sasuke couldn't even dodge it, and he has MS, so your argument is invalid.

    Darui using Water Wall, if he has time, would block Water Dragon, but not Giant Vortex Jutsu, it is to strong of a Suiton tech to be blocked by that mid-sized wall. Anyways, this part of the argument is useless because of course Zabuza, as said, is going to be going very fast behind Darui trying to get him, and not using the Suiton techs, so we should drop this, agreed?


    Well. As I've now demonstrated, Kakashi's Sharingan isn't NEEDED for him to block things in the mist, AND Kakashi's reaction time, even with the fancy eye, isn't unique or unmatched in terms of high-level ninja, like Darui.

    You still seem to think that the mist completely negates every possible attack, with no option one hitting. Which is just unreasonable.

    Interestingly enough, Water channels Lightning, and Lightning-aligned ninja are less susceptible to Lightning-based attacks. So, as Darui has at least one seal-less Raiton, he should be able to escape the Water Prison even if he's captured. And getting trapped in a Water Prison (especially without weaker parties to be used as "bait") is not exactly a matter of time. If both combatants are standing on water, it's equally likely (or more so, he's in general faster with ninjutsu) that Darui will fire off some sort of technique either at Zabuza or at the water in general for a quick immobilization. Which would lead to Zabuza's death.
    No you didn't demonstrate that because Kakashi was still using his Sharingan, how about you go back to that chapter and look at the previous page, he could still see, don't try to fool me.

    If Darui was caught in a Water Prison, if he used Lightning in it, he would be electrocuted all around and Zabuza would just feel it on his hand and quickly let go. It would paralyze if not kill Darui. " Lightning-aligned ninja are less susceptible to Lightning-based attacks" Where the hell did you get that bullshit? How does having a lightning element make less immune to lightning attacks? Zabuza has Water element, he wasn't immune or less damaged by Giant Vortex Jutsu. That's just sounds so asinine. Darui would just electrocute himself, it would hurt him hell of a lot more and leave him paralyzed.

    Oh but they are. At least, he won't be immediately dead. Why do you persist in thinking that NOTHING can POSSIBLY even GRAZE Zabuza while he's in the mist?
    I mean, I actually already said Sharingan and enhanced sensing abilites would GRAZE Zabuza....are you just saying that to make it look like I'm over hyping Zabuza to get the edge? No. And Darui may be able to survive, see my previous argument.

    Raikiri provides LESS LIGHT THAN LASER CIRCUS. That should be OBVIOUS.

    It provides light. Light provides visual range. Visual range means that Zabuza, or his clones, will be easier to see.

    Naruto-fans aren't exactly reknowed for their understanding of actual, real-world nature. You yourself don't even seem to realize that light makes things easier to see, even when it's misty.
    Light will not brighten up the mist and help Darui see, how can you even picture that? And Laser Circus isn't even a great sourse of light that covers an area, it's like a glow in the dark stick. Please stop using this argument, it's very, it's just stupid, no one have ever used an argument like this, probably because they don't try to think of any possible ways, even when they arn't logical.


    Kishimoto disagrees:

    Even regular eyes can be trained to break through illusions, and as pretty much EVERY Shippuden fight is faster than Lee was (and HE was faster than sight for non-Sharingan users), it's pretty clear that perception increases DRASTICALLY the higher up in rank you go, and that eyes can be trained to accomplish things which seem impossible. Zabuza HIMSELF has supposedly trained his sight to function even in thick mist (as in the FIRST engagement with Kakashi), though he doesn't NEED to see to be able to fight.

    In the first fight, Zabuza used mist of a lesser density than he later used. It was more easily seen through:

    That's from the second fight. And he has no reason to use the denser version, it's not like he's fighting a Sharingan-user or anything...

    Oddly enough, Kakashi was able to defend Sakura and Tazuna, without them able to tell anything about what was going on:
    Good argument. I actually, and I'm not even lieing, was going to say Deidara as an example because I swear I was thinking about him, but I didn't think it was needed because the only reason Deidara trained his eyes was to beat Itachi. Zabuza only trained his eyes to fight in the mist, Darui has yet a reason to go under immense training to increase the vision power of his eyes, it has yet to be in manga, so we can't assume this. But we can assume his eyes are better than Sakura's, even so, we don't know if they are good enough.


    Boxing someone in is a phrase meaning to control someone's positioning (with some nefarious purpose). It has nothing to do with Darui's relative position. If Darui locks down an area with a technique, he knows Zabuza isn't there. Which is of tremendous strategic value.

    If Zabuza is further away, he's not attacking Darui.

    You DID say that a slightly reduced concentration of Black Lightning would have little or no effect. Which is untrue.
    Unless Zabuza keeps moving so when Darui would use one of his jutsu to find Zabuza, we don't know after Darui is done with that area if Zabuza would then possibly move to it, hearing sounds of attacks coming at hit or around him. We can't assume this.

    And I said, "If Black Lightning hits Zabuza directly", if its spread out and less concentrated, I doubt it would have that same effect.

    If he can't move it at where he KNOWS Zabuza is, but can still move it in the direction Zabuza ACTUALLY IS, despite it not originally moving in that direction, it could hit him unexpectedly. But that's not my point. If he can aim it, he can aim it so it covers more ground, eliminating possible positions Zabuza migh have so that the NEXT attack can hit. Or the one after that. And so on.
    It was shown to be moving rapidly and jerking around in 1 direction, it was never shown that it could move counter clockwise or clock wise constantly, and to even find a target. I will not assume this because it wasn't even shown to change course of direction. This argument is to far fetched.


    You ARE aware that reading someone's mind like that isn't actually what happened? Here:


    As Zabuza stated in the manga LATER, it was a hypnotic suggestion to use a jutsu in Kakashi's arsenal.
    You're right, I was wrong about Kakashi, "reading his mind", Kakashi "copied" his mind, allowing him to complete sentences that Zabuza was thinking in his head.

    But also, you're wrong. Kakashi suggested Zabuza to use Giant Vortex Jutsu FROM ZABUZA'S ARSENAL, because HE COPIED ZABUZA'S MIND, not his. Which is why Zabuza even said, "He copies MY jutsu before I can even do it, I can't keep up" and "I was just about to create a vortex, but he created one first!". You can't go against manga like that, all the proof is there that Zabuza already knew the Gaint Vortex Jutsu.

    Well that shows impressive battle tactics now doesn't it?
    Dude, he was being outsmarted, terribly confused of what was going on because Kakashi phased him, and was terrified and very confused about the genjutsu, Zabuza explained this in the later fight about how Kakashi phased him and how he didn't get hit like some genin and had Haku in the background watching.

    Well, Zabuza doesn't exactly have the Kubikiri Hocho in his posession either, but I'll let it slide.
    Dude, don't even try this argument. That's because he died, when people die, they lose their possessions, Darui is still alive and doesn't have them, we are debating WHEN ZABUZA WAS STILL ALIVE in part 1, would he be able to fight Darui, which is why he has the sword and why you're "letting it slide".

    Before/as you start replying, we need to find away to summerize parts of the argument to what we can agree on, these posts are taking so long to reply to and getting us really no where.
     
         
    Last edited by ShaneEyyy; 12-02-2012 at 07:51 PM.

  19. #59
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    Re: Chiyo vs Zabuza

    This is hard... Even when she's old she can still fight and protect Sakura. If she was in her prime... Also her poison skills are only beat by Tsunade's healing but Zabuza is really strong and has long reach but Chiyo is long range
     
         

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    Re: Chiyo vs Zabuza

    Quote Originally Posted by lmao234 View Post
    This is hard... Even when she's old she can still fight and protect Sakura. If she was in her prime... Also her poison skills are only beat by Tsunade's healing but Zabuza is really strong and has long reach but Chiyo is long range
    so whats ur answer
     
         

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