SM Naruto surpasses both Jiraiya and Minato

[rikerslade]

Prove that Fukasaku was talking about Sage Mode, and not that Naruto just blitzed to save Tsunade from the Asura Path. Then, prove that Minato was going to learn Sage Mode.



But according to those two manga pages, Naruto surpassed both Minato and Jiraiya.

I can't "prove" it. That's just how I've interpreted it. After all, can you prove he wasn't talking about Sage Mode? Can you prove Minato wasn't in the process of or intended to learn Sage Mode?

[saw2097]

I can't "prove" it. That's just how I've interpreted it. After all, can you prove he wasn't talking about Sage Mode? Can you prove Minato wasn't in the process of or intended to learn Sage Mode?

The reason you can't prove it is because the old toad meant that Naruto in Sage Mode was stronger. Its plain and simple. You are argueing against the Manga.

[rikerslade]

he surpassed minato cause he perfected rasengan into rasenshuriken
he surpassed jiraiya cause he perfected sage mode

thats all there is to it

This can't be it, as Geezer Frog didn't know about Rasenshuriken.

[Omnipotent]

I can't "prove" it. That's just how I've interpreted it. After all, can you prove he wasn't talking about Sage Mode? Can you prove Minato wasn't in the process of or intended to learn Sage Mode?

So, if you can't prove it, why even suggest it? If the manga never shows or implies that Minato was in the process of learning or ever intended to learn Sage Mode, then it's a "no".

[Noddy]

In terms of mastering Sage Mode, obviously.

[rikerslade]

The reason you can't prove it is because the old toad meant that Naruto in Sage Mode was stronger. Its plain and simple. You are argueing against the Manga.

The reason I can't prove it is because it wasn't outrightly stated. I am not arguing against the manga, I am interpreting it in a different way. *derp*

[rikerslade]

So, if you can't prove it, why even suggest it? If the manga never shows or implies that Minato was in the process of learning or ever intended to learn Sage Mode, then it's a "no".

The manga has never shown he.wasn't, so then it must be a yes. Using your logic, in the end, it comes down to "maybe" and is left up to interpretation and speculation.

[Itachi8179]

Maybie now with BM mode he surpassed them but here is no way he do that back then in fight with pain.

[Omnipotent]

The manga has never shown he.wasn't, so then it must be a yes. Using your logic, in the end, it comes down to "maybe" and is left up to interpretation and speculation.

It's not my logic. It's what the majority of people on NB believe; I disagreed with it at first as well but now I agree with it. Just because Minato hasn't been shown to use Byakugou, does that mean he can? I don't think so.

[saw2097]

Maybie now with BM mode he surpassed them but here is no way he do that back then in fight with pain.

You are argueing against the manga. The frog said Naruto had surpassed them both in SM, he was being pretty clear about it.

[rikerslade]

It's not my logic. It's what the majority of people on NB believe; I disagreed with it at first as well but now I agree with it. Just because Minato hasn't been shown to use Byakugou, does that mean he can? I don't think so.

True. However, you have to use your brain. We know Minato has no relation to Byawhatever, but he does have a relation to Sage Mode,.thus, your analogy is invalid.

[Exaar]

I do believe he was talking about him mastering Sage mode, While no one can prove he has it, There are alot of things that point towards him atleast knowing of it.
His Teacher knew it, He has a contract with the toads, Pa seems to know him quite well, If minato infact did know Pa then theres a chance he also taught him sage mode.
I think he did have it just didn't have the time to master it/complete the training.

Also Nagato's victory over jiraiya was only because he was able to keep pains secret from jiraiya, He himself admited if jiraiya had known of this they migth not of won.

Yet naruto had almost full info on pain, Far far more than jiraiya ever had, yet asoon as deva paths powers came back he got stomped.
If naruto had truely surpassed jiraiya in everyway and not just Sm, naruto wouldn't of had as much trouble against pain.

[Omnipotent]

True. However, you have to your brain. We know Minato has no relation to Byawhatever, but he does have a relation to Sage Mode,.thus, your analogy is invalid.

Yes, but you're assuming that Minato attempted to learn Sage Mode, when nothing in the manga (or even the anime) suggests this at all. Furthermore, we can only assume that they did IF there is anything that even hints towards it (such as Minato stating Tobirama had S/T jutsu, from this we can assume that Orochimaru was using both Hashirama and Tobirama to toy with Hiruzen, because no where did we see Tobirama use any S/T). Unfortunately for you, nothing at all hints that Minato attempted to learn Sage Mode. And because we can't choose the nonexistant "maybe" option, we must choose the "no" option.

[saw2097]

I do believe he was talking about him mastering Sage mode, While no one can prove he has it, There are alot of things that point towards him atleast knowing of it.
His Teacher knew it, He has a contract with the toads, Pa seems to know him quite well, If minato infact did know Pa then theres a chance he also taught him sage mode.
I think he did have it just didn't have the time to master it/complete the training.

Also Nagato's victory over jiraiya was only because he was able to keep pains secret from him, He himself admited if jiraiya had known of this they migth not of won.

Yet naruto had almost full info on pain, Far far more than jiraiya ever had, yet asoon as deva paths powers came back he got stomped.

Untill proof is presented in the manga, then we should assume that Sage Mode Naruto has surpassed Minato. There is no proof that Minato is trying to learn Sage mode and the wording of the manga is Kishi's word.

Jariya never fought Deva Path. He had a hard time with just 3. Naruto fought five at once with the info and crushed them. Deva Path only gained the upper hand when he killed Pa, and Naruto ran out of Senjutsu.

So when Deva Path "stomped him" Naruto wasn't even in Sage Mode.

By the way Base Naruto ultimatley defeated Deva Path.

[rikerslade]

Yes, but you're assuming that Minato attempted to learn Sage Mode, when nothing in the manga (or even the anime) suggests this at all. Furthermore, we can only assume that they did IF there is anything that even hints towards it (such as Minato stating Tobirama had S/T jutsu, from this we can assume that Orochimaru was using both Hashirama and Tobirama to toy with Hiruzen, because no where did we see Tobirama use any S/T). Unfortunately for you, nothing at all hints that Minato attempted to learn Sage Mode. And because we can't choose the nonexistant "maybe" option, we must choose the "no" option.

And at the same time, nothing suggests Minato DIDN'T attempt to learn Sage Mode. Minato attempting to learn Sage Mode makes a lot more sense than him NOT attempting to learn it. Therefore, the "yes" option exists just as much as the "no" option. These cancel each other out and leaves us with "maybe" because there's no proof he didn't attempt it and there's no prood he did.

You need to think outside the box more.

[rikerslade]

Untill proof is presented in the manga, then we should assume that Sage Mode Naruto has surpassed Minato. There is no proof that Minato is trying to learn Sage mode and the wording of the manga is Kishi's word.

Jariya never fought Deva Path. He had a hard time with just 3. Naruto fought five at once with the info and crushed them. Deva Path only gained the upper hand when he killed Pa, and Naruto ran out of Senjutsu.

So when Deva Path "stomped him" Naruto wasn't even in Sage Mode.

By the way Base Naruto ultimatley defeated Deva Path.

Naruto actuallylost to Deva Path. Even while Naruto was in Sage Mode, Pein pinned him down. If Hinata didn't show up, Naruto would have been dead. And the only reason Naruto got as far as he did was because Deva didn't have full use of his powers for a while and even when he did, Pein didn't go all out. He could have easily skewed Naruto's head instead of his hands or back, but he needed Naruto alive.

[saw2097]

And at the same time, nothing suggests Minato DIDN'T attempt to learn Sage Mode. Minato attempting to learn Sage Mode makes a lot more sense than him NOT attempting to learn it. Therefore, the "yes" option exists just as much as the "no" option. These cancel each other out and leaves us with "maybe" because there's no proof he didn't attempt it and there's no prood he didn't.

You need to think outside the box more.

Its a manga as in fiction, you are seriously over complicating it. Kishimoto is writing this and if Minato had tried to learn Sage Mode it would have been mentioned.

Tsunade said that Jiraya was the only person in the Leaf that learned Senjutsu besides Naruto.

[Ultimate uzumaki form]

Naruto: Thread end no jutsu!

[Exaar]

Untill proof is presented in the manga, then we should assume that Sage Mode Naruto has surpassed Minato. There is no proof that Minato is trying to learn Sage mode and the wording of the manga is Kishi's word.

Jariya never fought Deva Path. He had a hard time with just 3. Naruto fought five at once with the info and crushed them. Deva Path only gained the upper hand when he killed Pa, and Naruto ran out of Senjutsu.

So when Deva Path "stomped him" Naruto wasn't even in Sage Mode.

By the way Base Naruto ultimatley defeated Deva Path.

Yes he did, He fought all 6 paths at once with no info about them with only one arm and yet he still killed one path.

Base naruto defeated Deva path after He Fought leaf shinobi/After he one shotted the leaf/After he fought Sm naruto/After he stomped naruto/After fighting kyuubi mode naruto/After naruto getting saved by minato/after he fought naruto in Sm again.

[Omnipotent]

And at the same time, nothing suggests Minato DIDN'T attempt to learn Sage Mode. Minato attempting to learn Sage Mode makes a lot more sense than him NOT attempting to learn it. Therefore, the "yes" option exists just as much as the "no" option. These cancel each other out and leaves us with "maybe" because there's no proof he didn't attempt it and there's no prood he didn't.

You need to think outside the box more.

Going by common NB logic, there is no "maybe" option in this (I've tried to create the "maybe" option many times, it didn't work out).

According to the manga, SM Naruto surpassed both Minato and Jiraiya. It's just as it's stated. Nothing more.

[saw2097]

Yes he did, He fought all 6 paths at once with no info about them with only one arm and yet he still killed one path.

Base naruto defeated Deva path after He Fought leaf shinobi/After he one shotted the leaf/After he fought Sm naruto/After he stomped naruto/After fighting kyuubi mode naruto/After naruto getting saved by minato/after he fought naruto in Sm again.

Pain still had enought power to bring the villiage back to life. And before that he spammed his jutsu's against Naruto.

And Jiraya was easily defeated by the 6 on one fight. Naruto crushed the first five pains easily. And he couldn't fuse with Ma and Pa.

[KidGamer65]

Surpass doesn't just mean that he surpassed them in strength. Surpass can mean anything else.

[rikerslade]

Its a manga as in fiction, you are seriously over complicating it. Kishimoto is writing this and if Minato had tried to learn Sage Mode it would have been mentioned.

Tsunade said that Jiraya was the only person in the Leaf that learned Senjutsu besides Naruto.

I am not over complicating anything, you're just failing to look at the entire picture and just choose to look at what supports your claim, rather than both it and what falsifies your claim. That is the kind of thinking that prevents true discussions on the Base.

And when did Tsunade ever say that? And even if it's true, it still doesn't defeat my earlier claim that Minato is a Level 0 in Sage Mode, it even reinforces it.

Going by common NB logic, there is no "maybe" option in this (I've tried to create the "maybe" option many times, it didn't work out).

According to the manga, SM Naruto surpassed both Minato and Jiraiya. It's just as it's stated. Nothing more.

There is a maybe option, because there is no proof that confirms a "yes", or "no".

And what Geezer Frog said is up for speculation because there are too many variables: Has Geezer Frog seen Minato's full powers? Has Minato learned Sage Mode? Has he attempted it? All these things need to be taken into consideration, and since we don't have definite "yesses" or "nos", all we are left with is "maybe".

[Omnipotent]

Surpass doesn't just mean that he surpassed them in strength. Surpass can mean anything else.

Fukasaku said it after Naruto did this:

[Exaar]

Pain still had enought power to bring the villiage back to life. And before that he spammed his jutsu's against Naruto.

And Jiraya was easily defeated by the 6 on one fight. Naruto crushed the first five pains easily. And he couldn't fuse with Ma and Pa.

Naruto only defeated the other paths because deva paths powers needed to cooldown, If Pain went at him full force naruto would of gotten stomped.
Naruto had full info on the paths and their abilties, While also getting Fed constant updates from tsunade via Katsuyu, While also Nagato had used quite alot of chakra befor naruto had even shown up.

jiraiya had nothing, As i said if naruto truely surpassed him, Naruto would of defeat Pain without info, even more easily with Deva paths powers on cooldown.

Pain stated if he had known of their secret they might not of won, yet naruto knew this and still would of lost (if not for Hinata/kyuubi/Minato).

Pain wasn't even trying to kill naruto, But he was trying to kill jiraiya. If Pain truely wanted naruto dead, he would've been.