SM Naruto surpasses both Jiraiya and Minato

[Omnipotent]

I am not over complicating anything, you're just failing to look at the entire picture and just choose to look at what supports your claim, rather than both it and what falsifies your claim. That is the kind of thinking that prevents true discussions on the Base.

And when did Tsunade ever say that? And even if it's true, it still doesn't defeat my earlier claim that Minato is a Level 0 in Sage Mode, it even reinforces it.



There is a maybe option, because there is no proof that confirms a "yes", or "no".

And what Geezer Frog said is up for speculation because there are too many variables: Has Geezer Frog seen Minato's full powers? Has Minato learned Sage Mode? Has he attempted it? All these things need to be taken into consideration, and since we don't have definite "yesses" or "nos", all we are left with is "maybe".

The manga says nothing to support that Minato has learned Sage Mode, and using NB logic this means he hasn't. Same thing for has he attempted it or not. Fukasaku saw Minato and Jiraiya in Naruto, so it is assumable that he saw Minato's full powers before.

You're trying to say that SM Naruto didn't surpass Jiraiya and Minato because nothing in the manga says that Fukasaku wasn't talking about mastery over Sage Mode. No, the statement is simple and nothing more, no underlying meaning or anything. You're making a sentence more complicated than it should be to support what you're saying.

[Ultimate uzumaki form]

Naruto only defeated the other paths because deva paths powers needed to cooldown, If Pain went at him full force naruto would of gotten stomped.
Naruto had full info on the paths and their abilties, While also getting Fed constant updates from tsunade via Katsuyu, While also Nagato had used quite alot of chakra befor naruto had even shown up.

jiraiya had nothing, As i said if naruto truely surpassed him, Naruto would of defeat Pain without info, even more easily with Deva paths powers on cooldown.

Pain stated if he had known of their secret they might not of won, yet naruto knew this and still would of lost (if not for Hinata/kyuubi/Minato).

Pain wasn't even trying to kill naruto, But he was trying to kill jiraiya. If Pain truely wanted naruto dead, he would've been.

Naruto an idiot.. It's better if he didn't know the abilities..

[saw2097]

Naruto only defeated the other paths because deva paths powers needed to cooldown, If Pain went at him full force naruto would of gotten stomped.
Naruto had full info on the paths and their abilties, While also getting Fed constant updates from tsunade via Katsuyu, While also Nagato had used quite alot of chakra befor naruto had even shown up.

jiraiya had nothing, As i said if naruto truely surpassed him, Naruto would of defeat Pain without info, even more easily with Deva paths powers on cooldown.

Pain stated if he had known of their secret they might not of won, yet naruto knew this and still would of lost (if not for Hinata/kyuubi/Minato).

Pain wasn't even trying to kill naruto, But he was trying to kill jiraiya. If Pain truely wanted naruto dead, he would've been.

If Naruto isn't stronger than Jariya and Minato why would Kishi say he has. He wrote the manga and calls the shots.

Also Pain admitted that Naruto had pushed him further than anyone else long before the 9 tails jumped in. Naruto only fell because he ran out of Senjutsu and Pain killed Pa.

[portgas d luffy]

i'am gonna turn this thread in the hotest thread

[Omnipotent]

i'am gonna turn this thread in the hotest thread

Do it

[slaton02]

You think people would have learned from the whole Hiruzen thing but no. If anyone think Sm Naruto can beat jiriya who knows almost all of Naruto's jutsu and has more techs and has a SM himself and a Minato that Naruto could not even touch needs help.

[rikerslade]

The manga says nothing to support that Minato has learned Sage Mode, and using NB logic this means he hasn't. Same thing for has he attempted it or not. Fukasaku saw Minato and Jiraiya in Naruto, so it is assumable that he saw Minato's full powers before.

You're trying to say that SM Naruto didn't surpass Jiraiya and Minato because nothing in the manga says that Fukasaku wasn't talking about mastery over Sage Mode. No, the statement is simple and nothing more, no underlying meaning or anything. You're making a sentence more complicated than it should be to support what you're saying.

And you're making things to simple to support your claim. All your arguments backfire on you. This cancels out my yes, and your no, and leaves us with maybe. Anyway, this argument is pretty done with no winner, just a bunch of maybes, so there's no point in continuing.

If Naruto isn't stronger than Jariya and Minato why would Kishi say he has. He wrote the manga and calls the shots.

Not everything a character says is confirmation from Kishi.

For example, A said Sharingan won't work on him, and it has.

Kiba said he was gonna beat Naruto, and he hasn't.

Oonoki said they would beat Madara, and they didn't.

Gai said Hirudora was a one-shit kill technique, but Kisame survived.

[saw2097]

You think people would have learned from the whole Hiruzen thing but no. If anyone think Sm Naruto can beat jiriya who knows almost all of Naruto's jutsu and has more techs and has a SM himself and a Minato that Naruto could not even touch needs help.

Then why did Kishi say it. Its his manga and when he had the old toad say that Naruto had surpassed them that translates into him saying it.

[Exaar]

If Naruto isn't stronger than Jariya and Minato why would Kishi say he has. He wrote the manga and calls the shots.

As i said.

If naruto had truely surpassed jiraiya, Naruto would of defeated pain without getting Pinned to the floor.

jiraiya + info >/= Pain according to the manga.

Naruto + Info < Pain according the the manga (up untill hinata stepped in).

[zinescience]

Somehow

[Omnipotent]

You think people would have learned from the whole Hiruzen thing but no. If anyone think Sm Naruto can beat jiriya who knows almost all of Naruto's jutsu and has more techs and has a SM himself and a Minato that Naruto could not even touch needs help.

Kishimoto needs help . This isn't a versus thread, your comment is nullified.

And you're making things to simple to support your claim. All your arguments backfire on you. This cancels out my yes, and your no, and leaves us with maybe. Anyway, this argument is pretty done with no winner, just a bunch of maybes, so there's no point in continuing.



Not everything a character says is confirmation from Kishi.

For example, A said Sharingan won't work on him, and it has.

Kiba said he was gonna beat Naruto, and he hasn't.

Oonoki said they would beat Madara, and they didn't.

Gai said Hirudora was a one-shit kill technique, but Kisame survived.

No, I'm simply restating what is said in the manga; "Naruto has surpassed those who came before him" - Fukasaku in reference to Minato and Jiraiya. I'm just taking the literal meaning of what Fukasaku said. You're trying to create another meaning for what Fukasaku is saying.

[rikerslade]

Kishimoto needs help . This isn't a versus thread, your comment is nullified.



No, I'm simply restating what is said in the manga; "Naruto has surpassed those who came before him" - Fukasaku in reference to Minato and Jiraiya. I'm just taking the literal meaning of what Fukasaku said. You're trying to create another meaning for what Fukasaku is saying.

And how do you know there isn't another meaning? Oh, that's right. You don't.

[saw2097]

As i said.

If naruto had truely surpassed jiraiya, Naruto would of defeated pain without getting Pinned to the floor.

jiraiya + info >/= Pain according to the manga.

Naruto + Info < Pain according the the manga (up untill hinata stepped in).

You are also saying that the old toad had no idea what he was talking about. The old toad who has known Jiraya his entire life and fused with him every time he used Sage Mode.

There is no evidence period to suggest that the old toad was saying that Minato had learned Sage mode.

Minato would win the fight because he has the FTG technique. But other than that there is no reason to believe Fukasaku meant otherwise.

[Blaze Release]

To surpass is too vague.

What pa said was thinking was that naruto has surpassed minato & jiraiya when it comes to sm. We know that jiraiya was an imperfect sage and minato its unknown, however the fact that pa frog thought what he did meant that even if minato had sm, if was also an imperfect sage. Or he didnt have it at all therefore naruto has done what others who came before him couldnt do which was master sm.

Secondly naruto has surpassed kakashi/jiraiya/minato when he created RS. Something that none of them could achieve.

Anyway Sm naruto overall hasnt surpassed minato/jiraiya. The key word is overall. However would he defeat them in a fight, i believe so. The frog's know that naruto is the 'chosen one', therefore in a fight against jiraiya for example who's technique's are heavily based around his summonings, jiraiya would be limited. Infact jiraiya would fight naruto whilst in base because the frog's will not help him fight naruto therefore he cannot go sm and neither will the frog's he summons obey his commands.

If however we take the element of the manga out and pit jiraiya against naruto therefore naruto isnt the chosen one and bla bla bla, meaning that the summon's will help him fight naruto, but also ma/pa frog will merge with him for sm.

Jiraiya would beat sm naruto. Majority of jiraiya's arsenal is heavily influenced by the frog's something that naruto still has yet to learn. Overall sm naruto hasnt surpassed jiraiya/minato

[★OnPoint]

I don't know why you're taking 'surpassed' as meaning 'stronger' when it's not even clear whether or not Sage Mode Naruto could even defeat Sage Mode Jiraiya, with the latter being by far the more seasoned shinobi. Naruto is the only one out of that trio who mastered the Sennin transformation, and that's what Fukasaku was referring to. Kabuto surpassed Orochimaru in terms of using Edo Tensei (controlling multiple summons) but that doesn't make his technique stronger, since the manga already stated that Orochimaru perfected the technique. Surpass can very easily refer to skill level, not necessarily strength. It's about taking things in context.

[Omnipotent]

And how do you know there isn't another meaning? Oh, that's right. You don't.

Why don't you go try finding underlying meanings for every single statement in Naruto? Because there isn't underlying meaning for every single statement in Naruto.

[Frikid]

fukasaku was talking about senjutsu.
kakashi also said naruto surpassed minato, but that was when he invented rasenshuriken.

you want proof?

remember when km naruto met with raikage and tsunade.
that time, tsuande and raikage both were comparing naruto with minato, and you can see tsunade is also in the scene in your pic.

So she obviously say SM.
Even after seeing SM naruto she is still comparing naruto with minato which means earlier, naruto didn't surpass minato in terms of power, and it also proves that km naruto have now reached the point where he can be compared to minato (like in terms of speed)

[saw2097]

And how do you know there isn't another meaning? Oh, that's right. You don't.

Where is your evidence to suggest that there was another meaning?

[Omnipotent]

fukasaku was talking about senjutsu.
kakashi also said naruto surpassed minato, but that was when he invented rasenshuriken.

you want proof?

remember when km naruto met with raikage and tsunade.
that time, tsuande and raikage both were comparing naruto with minato, and you can see tsunade is also in the scene in your pic.

So she obviously say SM.
Even after seeing SM naruto she is still comparing naruto with minato which means earlier, naruto didn't surpass minato in terms of power, and it also proves that km naruto have now reached the point where he can be compared to minato (like in terms of speed)

Naruto is compared to Nawaki, does that mean he didn't surpass Nawaki? :flaw:

[KidGamer65]

Where is your evidence to suggest that there was another meaning?

Where is your evidence that suggests that he meant strength?

[Exaar]

Why don't you go try finding underlying meanings for every single statement in Naruto? Because there isn't underlying meaning for every single statement in Naruto.

Thats what people should do.

Many people miss-understand statements because they do no look into the Meaning on that statement.

[saw2097]

Where is your evidence that suggests that he meant strength?

Why should I believe otherwise? He said Sage Mode Naruto surpassed both Minato and Jiraya. Until Kishi says otherwise he meant strength. Please show evidence that suggests he meant otherwise.

Oh and one more thing Tsunade told the elders that by learning Sage Mode Naruto would be more powerful than Jiraya.

[Omnipotent]

Thats what people should do.

Many people miss-understand statements because they do no look into the Meaning on that statement.

If you feel like doing that, you can read all the statements starting from chapter 1. You can prove anyone who "misunderstands" wrong then, by memorizing every single page of every single chapter and having them at the ready to prove people wrong.

[saw2097]

By the way how would Jiraya survive the Barrage of Massive Rasengan's Naruto used against the 9 tails?

Can Jiraya even do the same? Naruto fought the 9 tails and only lost when he tried to drain its power because he couldn't handle the hatred.

[KidGamer65]

Why should I believe otherwise? He said Sage Mode Naruto surpassed both Minato and Jiraya. Until Kishi says otherwise he meant strength. Please show evidence that suggests he meant otherwise.

So basically you don't have evidence, yet you are asking the other side for theirs....seems legit.

How do you know he meant strength, especially when there is more than one meaning for "surpass"?

You act like surpass in strength is the default meaning for surpass, well it isn't.