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  1. #1
    Kimblee Vs. Kisame Floydical's Avatar
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    Lets get the whole VL thing straightened out

    Considering what we've learned in recent chapters of Bleach, its obvious that Kubo has a lot left to tell us about his story and has added some serious longevity to his manga by doing this. Some very important plot lines include that of Ichigo and his mother, the whole story with the Quincy and Ichigo's possible connection to them, the remaining captains' bankai, and most important for me, the existence of Vasto Lorde in the Bleach universe.

    I want to focus this thread around the VL and get as much evidence put together as we can. I will post the most relevant chapters I can think of, but I want your guys' help to get even more posted. First up are chapters 197 and 284/285, where most of our knowledge on VL comes about:







    Now I have no knowledge of, or access to, any of the Bleach databooks, but I hear that most of the VL rumors come from those. I feel that I do not have a clear understanding of what is stated in them, and want your guys' help to post up this information with reliable translations. Obviously, we have no clear indication in the manga whether any of the Espada were VL, but apparently the databooks back Espada 1-4 being VL. Another notable thing is this image of espada 4, apparently from the databooks:

    http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Ulquiorra_Cifer

    (See the section on Ulquiorra's history)

    Is this real? Is there other images like this in the databooks?

    To be quite honest, I just don't feel that we can rely on anything from the anime or databook as being more relevant than the manga. Let me throw out some examples.

    The manga states that Espada 9 was a Gillian before becoming an Arrancar. He was obviously very strong for a Gillian and thats why he made the espada rank. Yami, who is confirmed to be an espada, was almost certainly an adjucas level hollow with great power potential. Like espada 9, he was essentially as strong as he could be for his ranking, and thus why he was labeled number 0. My point is that all espada, rank 8 and above, outclassed the strongest Gillian Espada, SO WHY WOULDN'T A VL ESPADA NOT OUTRANK THE BEST ADJUCAS ESPADA? My point is that if espada 1-4 were VL, why would they not be stronger than Yammi at his most powerful state? It would simply make no sense.

    Basically what I'm getting at is that Adjucas have been shown to vary in size, but many are very small, almost as small as a human. Clearly Kubo has shown us that the smaller and more human-like the hollow, the stronger they are. So guys like Grimmjow, Barragan and Starrk (the only ones of the top 6 that I know of being shown in the manga as hollows) could very easily be considered very strong Adjucas.

    On a final note, why can we not assume stronger hollows are out there? You might argue, why wouldn't Aizen recruit VL? Why would he only recruit the top Adjucas? Well perhaps Aizen didn't know about their presence. Remember how he couldn't feel Ichigo's power? Its possible they were too strong for him to sense. Or perhaps he knew about them and avoided them because they were too strong? You could also argue why was Barragan the king of the Huenco Mundo if he was only an Adjucas? Well perhaps the VL simply didn't care about those hollow below them, perhaps they live higher up in Huenco Mundo and separated themselves from the rest after evolving? My whole point is that we cannot ignore the possibility of VL existing in Huenco Mundo based solely on what we saw in the Aizen storyline.

    So anyway, I want this thread to be a basis for discussing all things Vasto Lorde. Please post any relevant material, most notably things from the databooks, that can shed more light on the topic. I simply feel that there is no strong evidence showing that espada 1-4 were VL and feel that the entire sub-class of Menos is yet to be introduced.

    And as always, thanks for reading .
     
         

  2. #2
    Senior Member Yusuke Urameshi's Avatar
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    Re: Lets get the whole VL thing straightened out

    I'm pretty sure, from what I saw in the anime, that only #3, Tier Haribel, was a Vasto Lorde before Aizen gave the Hogyou to the others. It does seem like there should be more than just that one though.
     
         

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    Member griems's Avatar
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    Re: Lets get the whole VL thing straightened out

    Actually Starrk was the only one looking truely "human" even BEFORE he was recruited by Aizen. He was also the only Espada that seemed to simply kill weaker hollow by just being near them.

    Sure Barragan had alot of followers but they didnt die near him (even tho if he wanted to they would), nor did the 3 weak hollow around Harribel that later became her fracción

    I'm not sure about Ulquiorra since we never got to see that but judging from what we've seen I'd say only Starrk would qualify as a real Vasto Lorde at this point.

    And I think the only reason why Yammy's number would change is that eventually if he gets angry enough in terms of destructive power he would overpower the top 4... that could take while tho
     
         

  4. #4
    Kimblee Vs. Kisame Floydical's Avatar
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    Re: Lets get the whole VL thing straightened out

    Quote Originally Posted by Yusuke Urameshi View Post
    I'm pretty sure, from what I saw in the anime, that only #3, Tier Haribel, was a Vasto Lorde before Aizen gave the Hogyou to the others. It does seem like there should be more than just that one though.
    The problem with what saw with Harribel was that it was anime only. This whole story with her was NOT in the manga. There was no backstory shown for either Harribel or Ulquiorra. Only Barragan and Starrk got backstories among the top 4.

    Therefore, we cannot use the anime episode you are referring to as evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by griems View Post
    Actually Starrk was the only one looking truely "human" even BEFORE he was recruited by Aizen. He was also the only Espada that seemed to simply kill weaker hollow by just being near them.

    Sure Barragan had alot of followers but they didnt die near him (even tho if he wanted to they would), nor did the 3 weak hollow around Harribel that later became her fracción

    I'm not sure about Ulquiorra since we never got to see that but judging from what we've seen I'd say only Starrk would qualify as a real Vasto Lorde at this point.

    And I think the only reason why Yammy's number would change is that eventually if he gets angry enough in terms of destructive power he would overpower the top 4... that could take while tho
    I thought about this too, but the fact that Starrk looked like a human IS NOT proof that he was a VL. VL still look like Hollows, they still have the mask and everything. Starrk honestly looked like an Arrancar before Aizen dealt with him. In my research, I found this:



    Basically, this confirms that Arrancar existed before Aizen went to Huenco Mundo. So, imo, its seems clear that Starrk was simply an incomplete Arrancar before Aizen got to him. Basically this would mean he looked like that because he was an adjucas that took on human-like qualities after becoming an Arrancar. I still believe that not one of the Espada can be proved as a VL based on the manga alone.
     
         

  5. #5
    Kimblee Vs. Kisame Floydical's Avatar
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    Re: Lets get the whole VL thing straightened out

    Quote Originally Posted by N1nken View Post
    Kubo, like Kishi, does like to add in more information in his databook than what appears in the manga, but that doesn't mean it's not canon or legitimate. A databook is a collection of information from the manga that is known at the current time. Kubo just likes to add stuff that previously was not known.

    Yeah, Ulquiorra as a hollow was part of a short story of him turning into an arrancar naturally. Also, although assumption and speculation isn't very credible, I'm pretty sure Kubo introduced the concept of the Vasto Lorde to have readers assume Ulquiorra was one. The silhouette is almost identical to his own image. I originally thought that Ulquiorra and Hallibel were Adjuchas because their resurreccion had animal-like appearances, while Starrk and Barragan had human-like appearances until the databook proved otherwise.

    The reason why Yammy was the strongest Espada is because the ranking of the Espada are based on reiatsu. Yammy's power allows his reiatsu to increase near limitlessly due to how angry he got. His power was severely underrated before and directly after he released. It's actually quite a dangerous ability. Even though Aaroniero is a Gillian, his absorption ability could potentially allow him to overpower other (low ranked) Espada.

    In reality, we have no way to identify a Vasto Lorde. We don't know which of the Espada were Vasto Lordes other than what was shown in the anime and what was said in the databook. I'd rather take Kubo's word that Stark, Barragan, Hallibel, and Ulquiorra were Vasto Lordes because, honestly, I don't think the concept will recur in the series again.
    I agree with you 100% that Ulquiorra looks very similar to the general silhouette we associate with a Vasto Lorde. However, that does not prove, without a shadow of a doubt, that he was in fact one. My point is why would Kubo directly leave this fact out of his manga unless he plans on introducing it later? It just seems completely irresponsible for Kubo to introduce such a complex concept without explaining it fully during its respective arc. Again, there is room for him to possibly re-introduce this, through Harribel most notably, but it still seems very fishy.

    But more on topic, you obviously have an idea as to what the databooks directly state on the matter. If you would, please post a synopsis of what the databooks say on the matter or perhaps post a link that might be valuable. You seem to confirm the idea that espada 1-4 were confirmed VL in the databooks, but I do not understand exactly what you know on the matter. Again, I would like you to elaborate on this if you know anymore, because I want to establish some evidence on the matter in this thread.
     
         

  6. #6
    Kimblee Vs. Kisame Floydical's Avatar
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    Re: Lets get the whole VL thing straightened out

    Wow, very interesting. By the term *most*, we'd have to assume at least 5 were VL, as you implied, which would be ridiculous. As you said, the manga strongly implies that Grimmjow never passed the rank of Adjucas. However, I suppose the manga does leave a lot of this open-ended. Since his followers believed he was capable of more, perhaps he did achieve VL rank sometime before becoming an Arrancar. However you slice it, I still lean toward only espada 1-4 being VL but would still love to believe that none of them actually achieved that rank.

    Either way, I still think that this concept was left far too incomplete for Kubo to be done with it. Perhaps he left a great deal of this undetermined so that he can go back later and reveal things he hasn't yet. Either way, I look forward to the rest of this arc and the possibility that the VL may have a part to play.
     
         

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