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  1. #376
    Senior Member Unbiased's Avatar
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    Re: (Facts and Manga pages) the Byakugan is the 2nd strongest dojutsu

    Quote Originally Posted by Owarij View Post
    Putting words in someone's mouth? I dont care about your theory

    there is one fact here
    Kakashi said

    "They say the Uchiha's clans origins lie within the Hyuuga"
    They say...

    He never said, It is known that ~ , or The uchiha clans origins lie within the hyuuga

    he said "they say"
    Do you know what else "they say"?
    They say that the so6p never existed, People believe he was a myth ..... You can't take everything that comes out someones mouth, especially when the person is reciting something normally said by others

    This is not a fact.. you don't know what a fact is
    Until proven otherwise the statement is truth. Where in the manga does it disprove kakashi's statement.
     
         

  2. #377
    Senior Member Koha's Avatar
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    Re: (Facts and Manga pages) the Byakugan is the 2nd strongest dojutsu

    Quote Originally Posted by Unbiased View Post
    The man hailed as of the sharingan has little knowledge of the sharingan...your funny. Anyways the Byakugan can counter any jutsu the sharingan/MS/EMS has to offer.
    Limited... In the end he didn't know anything past his 3-Tomoe Sharingan until Itachi's arrival... Oh, btw, there's no stopping Tsukuyomi, Itachi's Tsukuyomi, specifically, as it doesn't work in real time.... He distorts time and stretches 3 days in his world less than 3 seconds, much faster than the body could actually react and the fact that they're restricted in any type of movement if it's in the user's will. And not every Hyuuga is a master of their Byakugan, Neji was a special case, those of the main branch would attain the secret techniques, while every other Hyuuga was left in the dust with a basic knowledge of the Byakugan.
     
         

  3. #378
    - - - Waltz's Avatar
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    Re: (Facts and Manga pages) the Byakugan is the 2nd strongest dojutsu

    Quote Originally Posted by Unbiased View Post
    There isn't really a reason why any byakugan user would need to have their eyes open. Dojutsu's don't stop working when the eye is not visible. For example AO can use the byakugan underneath the bandages. Therefore no eyesight is needed and Tsukuyomi is a waste of chakra if casted.
    I refuted you point, and you instantly make this into a VS thread, and also made conditions to you advantage?

    I'll follow suit.

    Itachi uses Tsukyomi before Neji closes his eyes.
     
         

  4. #379
    終 充琉寿 Owarij's Avatar
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    Re: (Facts and Manga pages) the Byakugan is the 2nd strongest dojutsu

    You are correct in the rumors department. But you are not absolutely correct in the Hyuga being before the uchihas department. And ill how you could be wrong:

    It is obv that uchiha are descendant too the Sage, but how do we know that the Hyugas werent around when the sage was alive? This is just a hypothesis in a sense, but back then the sage introduced "Ninjutsu" but not "Taijutsu". Taijutsu is a basic form of fighting that ofc been around since humans grew arms, the hyugas are a top secret clan that specializes in taijutsu, what if back then they were around. Since they are not desendents too the sage, they could off out dated even the sage and his sons (i.e. uchihas).

    No one is saying the uchihas offspringed from the hyugas,but tobi could have left the hyugas out aswell. Seeing as he left the uzamakis out, and they are descendants aswell... IJS
    But you are not absolutely correct in the Hyuga being before the uchihas department.
    Not here to argue that.. There is a possibility for everything.. and I can't exclude that possibility for the sake of my argument....
    Look at how this argument started up

    This scan


    I could careless about which clan came first in the so6p time

    But kakashi there said that Hyuuga is the leaf's bloodline...
    From what we know as FACT , hyuuga and Uchiha are two different clans, with two different blood lines, different fighting styles everyhing..

    I corrected OP by saying , When it comes to KONOHA.. Fact is, The oldest clans were Senju and Uchiha, since they joined together to literally create the village...

    Then he replied with a THEORY, yes , it is a rumor and a theory of the origins of hyuuga/uchiha
    This is a debate, and we can both theorize all we want... but we are supposed to use facts ..The thread topic even states -Facts and Manga pages.....
     
         

  5. #380
    The Byakugan user of NB! Draegod's Avatar
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    Re: (Facts and Manga pages) the Byakugan is the 2nd strongest dojutsu

    Quote Originally Posted by PuppyDogGeneral View Post
    I refuted you point, and you instantly make this into a VS thread, and also made conditions to you advantage?

    I'll follow suit.

    Itachi uses Tsukyomi before Neji closes his eyes.
    Ill jump in at this point, it isnt that easy! Itachi has too make direct eye contact and Activate MS to use tsukuyomi, it isnt a instant tech like you think it is.. Otherwise he would of used tsukuyomi on kabuto at the very beginning...
     
         

  6. #381
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    Re: (Facts and Manga pages) the Byakugan is the 2nd strongest dojutsu

    @PuppyDogGeneral You talk about genjutsu as a problem forgetting that a non-Hyuga Byakugan user was able to fight the most powerful genjutsu user in the Uchiha clan(Shisui) and lived from the confrontation:



    He even said that his Byakugan was powerful enough to see thru the genjutsu placed on the 4th Mizukage, what an entire village wasn't able to notice, a genjutsu who was even compared to Shishui's KA:



    A non-Hyuga was able to do that, so just imagine a true Hyuga using his Byakugan at full power
     
         
    Last edited by T Bogard; 12-02-2012 at 05:48 PM.

  7. #382
    Senior Member Retsu's Avatar
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    Re: (Facts and Manga pages) the Byakugan is the 2nd strongest dojutsu

    I must say of all the topics I've seen this is the most detailed and unbiased thread I've read in a LOOOOOONG time. Excellent topic, I really look at hyuugas different now, great work.
     
         

  8. #383
    Senior Member Unbiased's Avatar
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    Re: (Facts and Manga pages) the Byakugan is the 2nd strongest dojutsu

    Quote Originally Posted by Koha View Post
    Limited... In the end he didn't know anything past his 3-Tomoe Sharingan until Itachi's arrival... Oh, btw, there's no stopping Tsukuyomi, Itachi's Tsukuyomi, specifically, as it doesn't work in real time.... He distorts time and stretches 3 days in his world less than 3 seconds, much faster than the body could actually react and the fact that they're restricted in any type of movement if it's in the user's will. And not every Hyuuga is a master of their Byakugan, Neji was a special case, those of the main branch would attain the secret techniques, while every other Hyuuga was left in the dust with a basic knowledge of the Byakugan.
    Tsukuyomi is worthless as the byakugan can work with the eye closed. AO is a prime example of someone using the byakugan with the eye closed.

    Quote Originally Posted by PuppyDogGeneral View Post
    I refuted you point, and you instantly make this into a VS thread, and also made conditions to you advantage?

    I'll follow suit.

    Itachi uses Tsukyomi before Neji closes his eyes.
    How is this a vs thread? I simply stated eyesight is not necessary but i'll play along. Neji learned from gai not to make eye contact with Itachi so he kept his eyes closed from the start while having byakugan active.
     
         

  9. #384
    終 充琉寿 Owarij's Avatar
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    Re: (Facts and Manga pages) the Byakugan is the 2nd strongest dojutsu


    Until proven otherwise the statement is truth. Where in the manga does it disprove kakashi's statement.
    And that is a logical fallacy.. You are asserting a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false... You cannot use that in a debate ...It is an appeal to ignorance
    argumentum ad ignorantiam
     
         

  10. #385
    Senior Member Unbiased's Avatar
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    Re: (Facts and Manga pages) the Byakugan is the 2nd strongest dojutsu

    Quote Originally Posted by Owarij View Post
    Not here to argue that.. There is a possibility for everything.. and I can't exclude that possibility for the sake of my argument....
    Look at how this argument started up

    This scan


    I could careless about which clan came first in the so6p time

    But kakashi there said that Hyuuga is the leaf's bloodline...
    From what we know as FACT , hyuuga and Uchiha are two different clans, with two different blood lines, different fighting styles everyhing..

    I corrected OP by saying , When it comes to KONOHA.. Fact is, The oldest clans were Senju and Uchiha, since they joined together to literally create the village...

    Then he replied with a THEORY, yes , it is a rumor and a theory of the origins of hyuuga/uchiha
    This is a debate, and we can both theorize all we want... but we are supposed to use facts ..The thread topic even states -Facts and Manga pages.....
    "hyuuga and Uchiha are two different clans, with two different blood lines, different fighting styles everyhing.." Where is the fact that states they're two different blood lines? Where does it specifically state they are two different blood lines? Last I heard the orgins lie within the hyuuga clan. Therefore giving the hyuuga relation to the elder son.
     
         
    Last edited by Unbiased; 12-02-2012 at 05:40 PM.

  11. #386
    Senior Member Unbiased's Avatar
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    Re: (Facts and Manga pages) the Byakugan is the 2nd strongest dojutsu

    Quote Originally Posted by Owarij View Post
    And that is a logical fallacy.. You are asserting a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false... You cannot use that in a debate ...It is an appeal to ignorance
    argumentum ad ignorantiam
    Kishimoto stated in his manga "They say the Uchiha's orgins lie with the hyuuga." So to answer your question as to who are they, they are kishimoto. No where is this statement refuted in the manga so your claim is defeated.
     
         

  12. #387
    The Byakugan user of NB! Draegod's Avatar
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    Re: (Facts and Manga pages) the Byakugan is the 2nd strongest dojutsu

    Quote Originally Posted by Owarij View Post
    Not here to argue that.. There is a possibility for everything.. and I can't exclude that possibility for the sake of my argument....
    Look at how this argument started up

    This scan


    I could careless about which clan came first in the so6p time

    But kakashi there said that Hyuuga is the leaf's bloodline...
    From what we know as FACT , hyuuga and Uchiha are two different clans, with two different blood lines, different fighting styles everyhing..

    I corrected OP by saying , When it comes to KONOHA.. Fact is, The oldest clans were Senju and Uchiha, since they joined together to literally create the village...

    Then he replied with a THEORY, yes , it is a rumor and a theory of the origins of hyuuga/uchiha
    This is a debate, and we can both theorize all we want... but we are supposed to use facts ..The thread topic even states -Facts and Manga pages.....
    True the uchiha and seju was both number one when creating the leaf village (everyone else followed, just making the village diverse! Could you imagine the senju and uchihas Doing one another??? -__- lol).
     
         

  13. #388
    Senior Member Koha's Avatar
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    Re: (Facts and Manga pages) the Byakugan is the 2nd strongest dojutsu

    [QUOTE=Unbiased;9319171]Tsukuyomi is worthless as the byakugan can work with the eye closed. AO is a prime example of someone using the byakugan with the eye closed.

    Sight is sight... Get caught and that's it, and more than likely a Hyuuga will have next to NO PRIOR knowledge on the Mangekyou Sharingan..... You made it a bit one-sided. As far as the story goes right now, the Hyuuga still only have knowledge on the 3-Tomoe Sharingan. Seeing as how none of them fought a Mangekyou Sharingan user... Let's think realistically here. No tipping scales.
     
         

  14. #389
    終 充琉寿 Owarij's Avatar
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    Re: (Facts and Manga pages) the Byakugan is the 2nd strongest dojutsu

    Quote Originally Posted by Unbiased View Post
    Kishimoto stated in his manga "They say the Uchiha's orgins lie with the hyuuga." So to answer your question as to who are they, they are kishimoto. No where is this statement refuted in the manga so your claim is defeated.

    They, are ninjas and other citizens of the Narutoverse.. you are once again assuming that everything that comes out a character's mouth is fact and said by kishi himself..

    They say Sasuke killed Zabuza.. Is that true?
    They say the so6p never existed...Is that true?
    They say that Hashirama's strength is a fairytail ... Is that true?

    Rumors and hearsay aren't fact... in no way what so ever....there are hundreds of other cases in the manga...


    Quote Originally Posted by Unbiased View Post
    "hyuuga and Uchiha are two different clans, with two different blood lines, different fighting styles everyhing.." Where is the fact that states they're two different blood lines? Where does it specifically state they are two different blood lines? Last I heard the orgins lie within the hyuuga clan. Therefore giving the hyuuga relation to the elder son.

    I am referring to what is listed in the databook

    Sharingan is one Kekke genkai
    Byakugan is another
     
         

  15. #390
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    Re: (Facts and Manga pages) the Byakugan is the 2nd strongest dojutsu

    [QUOTE=Koha;9319230]
    Quote Originally Posted by Unbiased View Post
    Tsukuyomi is worthless as the byakugan can work with the eye closed. AO is a prime example of someone using the byakugan with the eye closed.

    Sight is sight... Get caught and that's it, and more than likely a Hyuuga will have next to NO PRIOR knowledge on the Mangekyou Sharingan..... You made it a bit one-sided. As far as the story goes right now, the Hyuuga still only have knowledge on the 3-Tomoe Sharingan. Seeing as how none of them fought a Mangekyou Sharingan user... Let's think realistically here. No tipping scales.
    I'm not, even kakashi had prior knowledge of the MS. The Uchiha clan was renowned for the MS and feared because of it according to itachi. So you think that the hyuuga wouldn't know?
     
         

  16. #391
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    Re: (Facts and Manga pages) the Byakugan is the 2nd strongest dojutsu

    The last argument I have for this topic is the ninja world's desire for the byakugan. It was desired so much that the lesser branch was given cursed marks to dispose of their eyes at death to keep it from falling into the wrong hands. We don't here about that much desire for the sharingan. The uchiha body is a different story, because not only does it have their eyes but also their blood and powerful chakra, but Orochimaru solely wanted Itachi or Sasuke, he could have gotten his hands on some of the lesser clan members but he didn't.

    Which one you prefer all depends on your preference. Is that redundant?
     
         

  17. #392
    Senior Member Unbiased's Avatar
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    Re: (Facts and Manga pages) the Byakugan is the 2nd strongest dojutsu

    Quote Originally Posted by Owarij View Post

    They, are ninjas and other citizens of the Narutoverse.. you are once again assuming that everything that comes out a character's mouth is fact and said by kishi himself..

    They say Sasuke killed Zabuza.. Is that true?
    They say the so6p never existed...Is that true?
    They say that Hashirama's strength is a fairytail ... Is that true?

    Rumors and hearsay aren't fact... in no way what so ever....there are hundreds of other cases in the manga...
    Your posting statements that have been proven false in comparison to a statement that hasn't.
     
         

  18. #393
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    Re: (Facts and Manga pages) the Byakugan is the 2nd strongest dojutsu

    [QUOTE=Koha;9319230]
    Quote Originally Posted by Unbiased View Post
    Tsukuyomi is worthless as the byakugan can work with the eye closed. AO is a prime example of someone using the byakugan with the eye closed.

    Sight is sight... Get caught and that's it, and more than likely a Hyuuga will have next to NO PRIOR knowledge on the Mangekyou Sharingan..... You made it a bit one-sided. As far as the story goes right now, the Hyuuga still only have knowledge on the 3-Tomoe Sharingan. Seeing as how none of them fought a Mangekyou Sharingan user... Let's think realistically here. No tipping scales.
    How do you know that? The Hyuga clan is not really developped in this manga. So these are things we can't say for sure. For example, Ao(a Byakugan user) fought Shisui(a MS user) in the past and lived from the confrontation. When we know that Shisui was considered as the strongest genjutsu user in Uchiha clan and that he says his Byakugan was able to see thru genjutsus, it's clearly a feat
     
         
    Last edited by T Bogard; 12-02-2012 at 05:48 PM.

  19. #394
    終 充琉寿 Owarij's Avatar
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    Re: (Facts and Manga pages) the Byakugan is the 2nd strongest dojutsu

    Your posting statements that have been proven false in comparison to a statement that hasn't.
    And your argument once again is based on a logical fallacy

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance Please read this, then reply to me
    Or read all the logical fallacies, it can only help
     
         

  20. #395
    Senior Member Koha's Avatar
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    Re: (Facts and Manga pages) the Byakugan is the 2nd strongest dojutsu

    Quote Originally Posted by DESTRUCTO View Post
    The last argument I have for this topic is the ninja world's desire for the byakugan. It was desired so much that the lesser branch was given cursed marks to dispose of their eyes at death to keep it from falling into the wrong hands. We don't here about that much desire for the sharingan. The uchiha body is a different story, because not only does it have their eyes but also their blood and powerful chakra, but Orochimaru solely wanted Itachi or Sasuke, he could have gotten his hands on some of the lesser clan members but he didn't.

    Which one you prefer all depends on your preference. Is that redundant?
    z Nice... But most of the Ninja world believed the Uchiha to be exterminated except for Itachi, aside from Sasuke, since he wasn't very well known until the Chuunin exams. Plus, the Sharingan itself poses a bigger threat to a normal body than the Byakugan would, so there's an incentive to not go for the Sharingan. Danzo and Tobi were the ones who collected most of the remains of the Sharingan anyways. Sooooooo, where does that lead in the end? The desire for the next best thing, the Byakugan.
     
         

  21. #396
    Senior Member Unbiased's Avatar
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    Re: (Facts and Manga pages) the Byakugan is the 2nd strongest dojutsu

    Quote Originally Posted by Owarij View Post
    And your argument once again is based on a logical fallacy

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance Please read this, then reply to me
    Or read all the logical fallacies, it can only help
    Your argument is based on absolutely nothing but the assumption it could be wrong with nothing disproving it. Come back to me with manga pages disproving it. Your saying it could be wrong even though you don't have any evidence it is. That's like me saying susanoo is made from cheese and that I could be right even though I don't have any evidence of it. You sound like an idiot.
     
         

  22. #397
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    Re: (Facts and Manga pages) the Byakugan is the 2nd strongest dojutsu

    Kakashi might've said Byakugan>Sharingan, but that was before Ms was introduced. Kishi might not have even thought of it.

    Or Kakashi said that because with Ms you become blind.

    Heck, he could've literally been saying Byakugan>regular sharingan.

    But, if Byakugan was so great, why don't any of the villains wants byakugan instead of sharingan?

    I read your post, but most was wrong.
     
         

  23. #398
    Senior Member Koha's Avatar
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    Re: (Facts and Manga pages) the Byakugan is the 2nd strongest dojutsu

    [QUOTE=Bogard;9319281]
    Quote Originally Posted by Koha View Post
    How do you know that? The Hyuga clan is not really developped in this manga. So these are things we can't say for sure. For example, Ao(a Byakugan user) fought Shisui(a MS user) in the past and lived from the confrontation. When we know that Shisui was considered as the strongest genjutsu user in Uchiha clan and that he says his Byakugan was able to see thru genjutsus, it's clearly a feat
    Ao isn't a Hyuuga though, so why involve him in this? He's a Mist Village Shinobi who killed a Hyuuga for his Byakugan........ And it was pretty obvious Shisui had a different moveset of his Mangekyou Sharigan than Itachi and Sasuke.
     
         

  24. #399
    Senior Member Unbiased's Avatar
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    Re: (Facts and Manga pages) the Byakugan is the 2nd strongest dojutsu

    Quote Originally Posted by Amaterasuice View Post
    Kakashi might've said Byakugan>Sharingan, but that was before Ms was introduced. Kishi might not have even thought of it.

    Or Kakashi said that because with Ms you become blind.

    Heck, he could've literally been saying Byakugan>regular sharingan.

    But, if Byakugan was so great, why don't any of the villains wants byakugan instead of sharingan?

    I read your post, but most was wrong.
    Many villains have gone after the byakugan. Kumo has gone after it before for example.

    [QUOTE=Koha;9319354]
    Quote Originally Posted by Bogard View Post

    Ao isn't a Hyuuga though, so why involve him in this? He's a Mist Village Shinobi who killed a Hyuuga for his Byakugan........ And it was pretty obvious Shisui had a different moveset of his Mangekyou Sharigan than Itachi and Sasuke.
    AO was in possession of the byakugan during his encounter therefore he is automatically involved by possession.
     
         

  25. #400
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    Re: (Facts and Manga pages) the Byakugan is the 2nd strongest dojutsu

    This thread is pointless. The sharingan, and it's superior version the rinnengan, are far FAR superior than the "byakugan", which does NOTHING except enhance the users vision. The sharingan allows the prediction of movement and the slowing down of time along with it's superior abilities. Of course, the "sharingan" isn't just in a uchiha members eye's but his entire body is enhanced, which is why you see them do super-human feats of strength and speed from early ages.
     
         

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