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  1. #26
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    Re: Susano DOESNT require Ama and tsu (proof)

    Quote Originally Posted by Owarij View Post
    Black zetsu never saw Madara use it... Madara was in old age barely able to go places...

    Rumor? If he heard it as a rumor, White zetsu would have known of it aswell.... But white zetsu was completely clueless, yet the black knew exactly what it was and even that it's the partner jutsu to Tsukyomi... Unless you're going to imply that black and white split up and he heard it?


    You're starting to base your argument on pure conjecture not supported by the manga at all... this isn't proof what so ever
    black zetsu IS madara

    thats my proof

    if blackzetsu/madara NEVER seen amaterasu

    madara doesnt have it
     
         

  2. #27
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    Re: Susano DOESNT require Ama and tsu (proof)

    Quote Originally Posted by demon fang View Post
    if black zetsu only heard tha makes me wonder where heard it from maybe your right about it him hearing it as a "rumor" otherwise he would have said something like "from what madara explained to me" but, I guess he didn't on a count kishi maybe didn't want to make the connection between madara and zetsu so guess he kept his mouth shut to reveal the truth at a later time...who knows...but, you gotta point with the contradiction.
    maybe the uchiha tablet?
     
         

  3. #28
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    Re: Susano DOESNT require Ama and tsu (proof)

    Quote Originally Posted by meowNverse View Post
    No a rumor is something different. Zetsu has actual knowledge of Amaterasu, due to him having received Madara's knowledge.
    And as I said in post #16, Black Zetsu CANNOT HAVE SEEN Amaterasu, because Madara died a few seconds, after Black Zetsu's creation.
    black zetsu IS madara

    and has madara's knowledge

    madara had knowledge

    but zetsu clearly wanted to SEE it...meaning madara never used it

    zetsu probably read the uchiha tablet
     
         

  4. #29
    終 充琉寿 Owarij's Avatar
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    Re: Susano DOESNT require Ama and tsu (proof)

    Quote Originally Posted by SakuXNaru View Post
    zetsu was shocked to see itachi use amaterasu for the first time

    they were shock and didnt know it can burn fire

    Now you're stating nonsense..

    Once again, white zetsu was clueless and said " Holy smokes it burned fire?"
    Then black zetsu once again explained how it worked

    "iT burns whatever the eye focuses on, the black flames will converge on that spot, then it will continue to burn untill the target is completely eradicated.."

    Black zetsu was in no way suprised that in burned fire, white zetsu was
     
         

  5. #30
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    Re: Susano DOESNT require Ama and tsu (proof)

    Quote Originally Posted by SakuXNaru View Post
    maybe the uchiha tablet?
    who knows...All know is that he didn't say or rather didn't make black zetsu say to build suspense or something...oh yeah sorry since madara placed a portion of his will in zetsu the knowledge must have transfered thats how black zetsu knew
     
         
    Last edited by demon fang; 12-09-2012 at 02:01 PM.

  6. #31
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    Re: Susano DOESNT require Ama and tsu (proof)

    Quote Originally Posted by SakuXNaru View Post
    black zetsu IS madara

    and has madara's kopwledge

    madara had knowledge

    but zetsu clearly wanted to SEE it...meaning madara never used it

    zetsu probably read the uchiha tablet
    Black Zetsu CANNOT HAVE SEEN Amaterasu, because Madara died a few seconds, after Black Zetsu's creation.
    Black zetsu has never SEEN Amaterasu in action.
    It doesnt matter if he has knowledge and/or memory about it.
    He has never actually SEEN it with his(black zetsu) EYES.
    However he knows about it due to having Madara's knowledge.
    He was eager to see, what he knew.

    and he cannot read the uchiha tablet, cause he lacks Sharingan and Rinnegan.
     
         

  7. #32
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    Re: Susano DOESNT require Ama and tsu (proof)

    yeah so in other words black has a better idea of amaterasu than white.
     
         

  8. #33
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    Re: Susano DOESNT require Ama and tsu (proof)

    Quote Originally Posted by Owarij View Post

    Now you're stating nonsense..

    Once again, white zetsu was clueless and said " Holy smokes it burned fire?"
    Then black zetsu once again explained how it worked

    "iT burns whatever the eye focuses on, the black flames will converge on that spot, then it will continue to burn untill the target is completely eradicated.."

    Black zetsu was in no way suprised that in burned fire, white zetsu was
    ok

    explain to me why zetsu said "WE might actually get to see amaterasu"

    if black zesu is madara, he should have seen amaterasu already, right?
     
         
    Last edited by ~Sovereign~; 12-09-2012 at 02:06 PM.

  9. #34
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    Re: Susano DOESNT require Ama and tsu (proof)

    Quote Originally Posted by meowNverse View Post
    Black Zetsu CANNOT HAVE SEEN Amaterasu, because Madara died a few seconds, after Black Zetsu's creation.
    Black zetsu has never SEEN Amaterasu in action.
    It doesnt matter if he has knowledge and/or memory about it.
    He has never actually SEEN it with his(black zetsu) EYES.
    However he knows about it due to having Madara's knowledge.
    He was eager to see, what he knew.

    and he cannot read the uchiha tablet, cause he lacks Sharingan and Rinnegan.
    OMG

    BLACK ZETSU IS MADARA

    whatever madara knows...black zetsu knows
    whatever madara seen....black zetsu seen

    madara made this clear already
    how do you think obito know madara entire life story?
     
         

  10. #35
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    Re: Susano DOESNT require Ama and tsu (proof)

    Quote Originally Posted by SakuXNaru View Post
    ok

    explain to me why zetsu said "WE might actually get to see amaterasu"

    if black zesu is madara, wouldnt he have seen amaterasu already?
    He probably only mentioned amaterasu to white zetsu only in name perhaps but, not on what it does or on what it looks like. I think kishi made it that way in the beginning to make it appear that there was no connection to zetsu and madara.
     
         
    Last edited by demon fang; 12-09-2012 at 02:08 PM.

  11. #36
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    Re: Susano DOESNT require Ama and tsu (proof)

    Quote Originally Posted by demon fang View Post
    He probably only mentioned amaterasu to white zetsu only in name perhaps but, not on what it does or on what it looks like.
    madara didnt explain NOTHING

    black zetsu IS madara

    anything madara knows/sees...black zetsu knows/sees
     
         

  12. #37
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    Re: Susano DOESNT require Ama and tsu (proof)

    Quote Originally Posted by SakuXNaru View Post
    madara didnt explain NOTHING

    black zetsu IS madara

    anything madara knows/sees...black zetsu knows/sees
    No I mean black zetsu to white zetsu not madara he was gonna die, no time to explain things.
     
         

  13. #38
    �You Question Logic Child� TheTailedSage's Avatar
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    Re: Susano DOESNT require Ama and tsu (proof)

    How can u argue with the databook :\ come onthe only reason why zetsu got baffled is because he had never seen ITACHI use ammy if he did he wouldn't of got so happy to see a jutsu he sees on a regular basis, like sakuxxnaru said. Zetsu knows evrything about madara but not itachi, anyway we haven't seen anyone with susano'o who doesn't know the tsukyomi and ammy and yes the databook said he can use magatama and ammy. If kishi is contradicting himself which I doubt he is then we found a hole in his logic but until someone can show solid evidence that u don't need ammy and tsukyomi then facts remain that u do need them. If this is true then obito should have susano'o but because he doesn't know ammy and doesn't have both eyes he cant
     
         

  14. #39
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    Re: Susano DOESNT require Ama and tsu (proof)

    Quote Originally Posted by demon fang View Post
    No I mean black zetsu to white zetsu not madara he was gonna die, no time to explain things.
    thats what i said

    black zetsu never seen amaterasu because madara never had it for him to see it

    black zetsu probably read the uchiha tablet to find out what amaterasu is
     
         

  15. #40
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    Re: Susano DOESNT require Ama and tsu (proof)

    Quote Originally Posted by SakuXNaru View Post
    thats what i said

    black zetsu never seen amaterasu because madara never had it for him to see it

    black zetsu probably read the uchiha tablet to find out what amaterasu is
    wait the uchiha tablet don't you need sharingan or rinnegan to read it?
     
         
    Last edited by demon fang; 12-09-2012 at 02:18 PM.

  16. #41
    終 充琉寿 Owarij's Avatar
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    Re: Susano DOESNT require Ama and tsu (proof)

    Quote Originally Posted by SakuXNaru View Post
    thats what i said

    black zetsu never seen amaterasu because madara never had it for him to see it

    black zetsu probably read the uchiha tablet to find out what amaterasu is
    Black zetsu is the embodiment of Madaras knowledge, they aren't the same person literally, They act differently, talk differently, Zetsu Obeys Obito's every word, while Madara does not..
     
         

  17. #42
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    Re: Susano DOESNT require Ama and tsu (proof)

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTailedSage View Post
    How can u argue with the databook :\ come onthe only reason why zetsu got baffled is because he had never seen ITACHI use ammy if he did he wouldn't of got so happy to see a jutsu he sees on a regular basis, like sakuxxnaru said. Zetsu knows evrything about madara but not itachi, anyway we haven't seen anyone with susano'o who doesn't know the tsukyomi and ammy and yes the databook said he can use magatama and ammy. If kishi is contradicting himself which I doubt he is then we found a hole in his logic but until someone can show solid evidence that u don't need ammy and tsukyomi then facts remain that u do need them. If this is true then obito should have susano'o but because he doesn't know ammy and doesn't have both eyes he cant
    what?

    zetsu makes it clear, he's never seen amaterasu

    quit trying to make it seem like kishi is perfect, he can contradict himself...it wont be the first time

    remember kishi said minato will never be surpassed, and said hiuzen was a god, and said hashirama was the only one that can stop madara which is false because madara will be stopped and hashirama is already dead

    kishi lies all the time/changes his mind
     
         

  18. #43
    終 充琉寿 Owarij's Avatar
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    Re: Susano DOESNT require Ama and tsu (proof)

    ^ those were statements from characters in the manga who do not have infinite knowledge... every character in the manga is intitled to his/her own opinion.. they can be wrong, they can er... what they say are not always fact....

    Statements in the databook are different..they are from kishi himself

    know the diff
     
         

  19. #44
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    Re: Susano DOESNT require Ama and tsu (proof)

    Quote Originally Posted by Owarij View Post
    Black zetsu is the embodiment of Madaras knowledge, they aren't the same person literally, They act differently, talk differently, Zetsu Obeys Obito's every word, while Madara does not..
    i know that

    but STILL zetsu has ALL of madara's knowledge..if madara has amaterasu...THERE WOULD BE NOTHING FOR ZETSU TO "SEE", because he would just go by madara's knowledge and wouldnt be shocked about something he's seen before.....EVEN WHITE ZETSU, im sure that if madara had amaterasu, hashirama knew about too...so white zetsu SHOULDVE known about it too, i think this is obvious

    Quote Originally Posted by demon fang View Post
    wait the uchiha tablet don't you need sharingan or rinnegan to read it?
    have you forgot about nagato and obito...zetsu's partners?

    and i just told you zetsu has ALL of madara's knowledge...if madara read the tablet and got the knowledge...so did zetsu
     
         

  20. #45
    �You Question Logic Child� TheTailedSage's Avatar
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    Re: Susano DOESNT require Ama and tsu (proof)

    Quote Originally Posted by SakuXNaru View Post
    what?

    zetsu makes it clear, he's never seen amaterasu

    quit trying to make it seem like kishi is perfect, he can contradict himself...it wont be the first time

    remember kishi said minato will never be surpassed, and said hiuzen was a god, and said hashirama was the only one that can stop madara which is false because madara will be stopped and hashirama is already dead

    kishi lies all the time/changes his mind
    No way kishis perfect :S but put into your logic your proving my point too, he makes characters say a lot of kaka but saying ve never seen the ammy might be a lie too, that's why I'm basing it on opinion and not fact I'm just going my current knowledge how do we know that zetsu aint seen ammy he lies all the time as u quite cleary stated (kishi is no where near perfect he trolls to much)
     
         

  21. #46
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    Re: Susano DOESNT require Ama and tsu (proof)

    uh...I just said obito probably gave them info.
     
         
    Last edited by demon fang; 12-09-2012 at 02:27 PM.

  22. #47
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    Re: Susano DOESNT require Ama and tsu (proof)

    Quote Originally Posted by Owarij View Post
    ^ those were statements from characters in the manga who do not have infinite knowledge... every character in the manga is intitled to his/her own opinion.. they can be wrong, they can er... what they say are not always fact....

    Statements in the databook are different..they are from kishi himself

    know the diff
    no, kishi said these things

    some character are just used for HYPE

    what about when kishi said madara has no weaknesses?? thats wrong because madara's weakness is sealing jutsu

    kishi contradicts himself
     
         

  23. #48
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    Re: Susano DOESNT require Ama and tsu (proof)

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Trickster View Post
    Your entire theory is completely flawed.

    You don't rely on what a characters says, but on solid facts and evidence. You've disproved nothing, and Susano'o requiring Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu still stands.
    where am i flawed?
     
         

  24. #49
    Eigo no Sensei NaruGoku's Avatar
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    Re: Susano DOESNT require Ama and tsu (proof)

    meowNverse;939649 You actually proved yourself wrong .
    Amaterasu:
    Black Zetsu knows of it, so Madara most likely has Amaterasu.
    Black Zetsu however, has never seen it in action, which is true, cause Madara died like 3 seconds after his creation.

    ur right, Black Zetsu knew all about Amaterasu because he is Madara's will incarnate, but that doesn't mean Madara himself had it. We are talking about Madara here, he probably KNEW all the possible techs, but that doesn't necessarily mean he actually HAD those techs. So, it's possible Madara really only knew of it/heard of it and what happens but actually hadn't seen it before...?

    and Black Zetsu, when he said "we might actually get to see Amaterasu" -- and this is from my view, how i see it so i'm not saying that i'm totally correct -- but it seems to be that he was just generally commenting that "it looks like we'll get to see it afterall." cuz first, he said "the air around Itachi is changing" and it was after that when he said "it looks like we'll see it afterall." So maybe he simply believed they may not see it--because remember, Black Zetsu knew everything and maybe he didn't think Itachi would use Amaterasu cuz it could one-shot kill Sasuke and he knew Itachi wouldn't do that, and i don't think that even Black Zetsu knew Itachi could put the black fire out--which would add credence to the idea that Madara didn't have Amaterasu but only knew of it


    Tsukuyomi:
    Madara showed some form of Tsukuyomi to Obito, so he has that jutsu as well.

    and ur right, Madara showed Obito Tsukuyomi. BUT, remember that when Madara showed Obito the Tsukuyomi tech, Madara wasn't using HIS OWN EYES. because, remember, he gave HIS eyes to Nagato so he used another eye to show Obito the Tsukuyomi, so we really have no idea if he has Tsukuyomi from his own eyes, although i'm sure he does cuz i assume he'll be the one casting Infinite Tsukuyomi off the moon, unless he uses another eye, or if there's a special ritual, or they actually use the Juubi's power/eye to do it, we don't know yet.

    Susanoo:
    Madara has perfect Susanoo.

    i don't know how Madara having Perfect Susanoo has anything to do with what you're talking about, unless u just mentioned it to say u need Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi to unlock Susanoo... but it appears you need the Rinnegan for PS, not sharingan, apparently, although i can't say for sure one way or the other... but also just having Susanoo may not necessarily mean u have Amaterasu by default...

    Susanoo is rare:
    Obito said it was rare for MS users to unlock Susanoo.
    Obito himself doesnt have it.
    Shisui, as far as we know, doesnt have it either.

    Also, it is again true what you say--it is rare for one to unlock Susanoo. The manga EXPLICITY says "only those who control the Double Mangekyou can awaken the third power, Susanoo." However, nowhere does it say that anyone who unlocks the double mangkeyou is gaurantee'd to awaken it nor does it say those who awaken Ama/Tsuku are gauranteed to awaken Susanoo. So, it could be that only those with Double Mangekyou even have the chance to unlock susanoo, but the mangekyou itself doesn't gaurantee it, so it is also possible having Ama/Tsuku doesn't gaurantee Susanoo either. So Obito/Shisui not having it could very well have absolutely nothing to do with the fact they don't have Ama/Tsuku... that's possible.

    So yeah, you probably need Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, to unlock Susanoo.

    I agree with OP that one may NOT need Ama/Tsuku to unlock Susanoo. However, i believe he came to that conclusion for the wrong reasons.

    and i KNOW about that one page from the Databook, BUT the Databook is NOT 100% accurate, there's only 1 page that mentions it at all in the vicinity of having Tsukuyomi/Amaterasu, and it was only regarding Itachi cuz he was the ONLY one at that point that we knew about who had it. and that was a long time ago, and databooks are really only accurate to the day they come out cuz things change drastically from arc to arc and changes as plot develops.

    So, i believe--and feel free to disagree but please don't get argumentative--that it's possible you don't need Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi to awaken Susanoo.

    These are simply my thoughts and views, my observations and my opinions... Please don't flame me for my thoughts and opinions, but i do believe one may not need Amateraus and Tsukuyomi to awaken Susanoo. I think u just need Double Mangekyou, and even then i think you need to be special or have a special prowess to be able to awaken Susanoo once you do have the MS. i don't think all those with MS or all those with Ama/Tsuku can/do awaken Susanoo.

    Again--these are my thoughts and opinions, and i use the word "Possibly" a lot because i'm NOT saying that i AM correct or that my thoughts and my way are RIGHT, this is just what i think from what i've seen and put together ok?
     
         
    Last edited by NaruGoku; 12-09-2012 at 03:08 PM.

  25. #50
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    Re: Susano DOESNT require Ama and tsu (proof)

    Quote Originally Posted by SakuXNaru View Post
    no, kishi said these things

    some character are just used for HYPE

    what about when kishi said madara has no weaknesses?? thats wrong because madara's weakness is sealing jutsu

    kishi contradicts himself
    Sealing is not Madara's weakness, if you can't defeat him then how can you seal him? lol
     
         

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