why do people think PS is an EMS tech?

[Lightbringer]

Madaras full susanoo is an MS tech, (granted the size is much larger than normal due to unlimited chakra reserves and rinnegan) however when madara stabilizes the susanoo and it becomes PS that is an EMS tech

Stabilizing chakra isn't an ability though...it's just being able to control it.

[Lightbringer]

You may be correct, but this would mean MS Madara had a true, Perfect Susano'o. It could also mean that Izuna had one too - I doubt the Senju would've been able to handle two of these monsters on top of everything else. Anyhow, the stabilization of chakra may not be possible without the EMS. Remember, these users are free from the constant pain exerted by Mangekyō Sharingan techniques. Perhaps it is this which allows a user to properly focus the chakra, as it may not be possible to do so with the continual agony caused by using Susano'o present.

Madara is a different kind of beast remember? He was born with a massive amount of chakra even among the uchiha, the first to unlock both MS and EMS, second to get rinnegan, and the first to control a bijuu.

I'm sure someone like him can handle it, seeing as though he survived countless battles against Hashi which were apparently levels above whatever we have seen so far.

Also stabilizing chakra isn't an ability, just a skill.

[★Varrah]

The supplementary power of the Eien no Mangekyō Sharingan power allows the user attain the "True" Susano'o after its chakra has been settled. [1]

[Draphsin]

Stabilizing chakra isn't an ability though...it's just being able to control it.

Yes but you cant stabilize the chakra properly without EMS

[TheWillofFire]

because the susanoo is an MS tech and already has forms like rib cage, skeletal, full, completed, and then finally perfect.

with the perfect form, all Madara did was stabilize the completed.

Both Sasuke and Itachi already have the completed form with their MS.....

I see what you are saying now
So PS is from MS not EMS, it just happens that Madara has EMS at his time of using PS, which of course had been obviously summoned by EMS since he no longer wields MS.

But I see, saying that PS is from MS is believable too, since thats all it takes to have Susanoo. And Madara is more than capable.

Do we know if when Madara fought with oonoki back in the day had EMS or not??

[Lightbringer]

The supplementary power of the Eien no Mangekyō Sharingan power allows the user attain the "True" Susano'o after its chakra has been settled. [1]

Stabilizing chakra isn't a tech, just a skill. If the PS was merely just a new form given with the EMS, wouldn't it just transform like any other susanoo form had....from rib cage to skeletal, etc...without having to command it?

[Lightbringer]

I see what you are saying now
So PS is from MS not EMS, it just happens that Madara has EMS at his time of using PS, which of course had been obviously summoned by EMS since he no longer wields MS.

But I see, saying that PS is from MS is believable too, since thats all it takes to have Susanoo. And Madara is more than capable.

Do we know if when Madara fought with oonoki back in the day had EMS or not??

Exactly, and we don't know how many times he fought Onoki, but in the flashback they showed he was wearing a konoha headband, meaning EMS madara. But that also means he could have had it before then as well since he already mastered it at the time apparently.

[Noddy]

Madara is a different kind of beast remember? He was born with a massive amount of chakra even among the uchiha, the first to unlock both MS and EMS, second to get rinnegan, and the first to control a bijuu.

I'm sure someone like him can handle it, seeing as though he survived countless battles against Hashi which were levels above whatever we have seen so far.

Also stabilizing chakra isn't an ability, just a skill.

I don't know about Madara being born with an uncommonly large amount of chakra - only that he possessed the strongest chakra [1]. MS Izuna was supposedly equal to his older brother in every way, and so logically, must've possessed power which could rival him. If pre-EMS Madara really did have such a large complete Susano'o, it's reasonable to suggest that Izuna must've had one too, because a traditional Susano'o wouldn't be able to compete.

I never said stabilizing chakra was an ability. I said that it may not be possible without the perks of the Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan, because for an MS user, it's a challenge merely to use Susano'o in the first place (because of the strain on the body). Now to focus the chakra in addition to maintaining the warrior may be a bridge too far.

[Lightbringer]

Yes but you cant stabilize the chakra properly without EMS

It has never been mentioned that the EMS affects chakra. Only the ability to not lose sight thus far. Sasuke was able to manipulate amaterasu with just an MS.

[Lightbringer]

I don't know about Madara being born with an uncommonly large amount of chakra - only that he possessed the strongest chakra [1]. MS Izuna was supposedly equal to his older brother in every way, and so logically, must've possessed power which could rival him. If pre-EMS Madara really did have such a large complete Susano'o, it's reasonable to suggest that Izuna must've had one too, because a traditional Susano'o wouldn't be able to compete.

I never said stabilizing chakra was an ability. I said that it may not be possible without the perks of the Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan, because for an MS user, it's a challenge merely to use Susano'o in the first place (because of the strain on the body). Now to focus the chakra in addition to maintaining the warrior may be a bridge too far.

Izuna could have just not possessed a susanoo. Susanoo was a rarity. And Sasuke was able to control the flames of Amaterasu with just the MS. Isn't that similar?

Besides it has never been mentioned that the EMS affects chakra, only the ability to not lose sight.

[Draphsin]

It has never been mentioned that the EMS affects chakra. Only the ability to not lose sight thus far. Sasuke was able to manipulate amaterasu with just an MS.

Its obvious that EMS affects the chakra, for example when sasuke fought danzou he could barely maintain a regular susanoo. But when we see sasuke fighting kabuto he was able to instantly enter his full susanoo form and use amaterasu at a large scale without showing any sign of fatigue. If MS sasuke fought kabuto he wouldnt last 5 minutes because by then his susanoo would exhaust him

[Lightbringer]

Its obvious that EMS affects the chakra, for example when sasuke fought danzou he could barely maintain a regular susanoo. But when we see sasuke fighting kabuto he was able to instantly enter his full susanoo form and use amaterasu at a large scale without showing any sign of fatigue. If MS sasuke fought kabuto he wouldnt last 5 minutes because by then his susanoo would exhaust him

he also had about a year of training. I believe that was the gap between the war and kage arc. Remember how naruto couldn't control his chakra mode at first but then got used to it?

He used to only be able to do 5min with bijuu mode and now he can do I believe it was 8min.

[Noddy]

Izuna could have just not possessed a susanoo. Susanoo was a rarity. And Sasuke was able to control the flames of Amaterasu with just the MS. Isn't that similar?

Besides it has never been mentioned that the EMS effects chakra, only the ability to not lose sight.

Yes, Susano'o was a rarity. It doesn't mean that Izuna couldn't have possibly possessed one also, because he and his brother were only known as the first to awaken the Mangekyō. There could've been other Mangekyō users during that era, we don't know. If that were the case, then Susano'o would still be rare despite the fact that two people had awakened it. After all, there have seemingly been many failed attempts at awakening the EMS in this clan, which implies that there were a fair few Mangekyō Sharingan wielders [1].

Sasuke was able to control the flames but with great difficulty and discomfort. It was only after he had gained the EMS was he able to freely use this ability without consequence. Also, Enton is only a single MS ability. One gains Susano'o with the double Mangekyō - Susano'o is the 'third power'. This suggests that Susano'o is the ultimate MS technique and a level above the two which precede it. If that's the case, it may be that Susano'o is harder to use or at least more strenuous on the body.

[-Logic-]

Ah! Forgive me OP; I thought you were insinuating that PS was a Rinnegan technique. My bad, homie . Now that I think about it, you may be right.

[★Varrah]

Stabilizing chakra isn't a tech, just a skill. If the PS was merely just a new form given with the EMS, wouldn't it just transform like any other susanoo form had....from rib cage to skeletal, etc...without having to command it?

Stabilizing the chakra is the final advent for actualizing the "True" Susano'o, and as you presume is a skill. The complete act emerges from the donor's eyes received to create the Eternal, which supplement the keepers own ocular powers, and must be handled to a certain point 'x' before being able to be reformed into the True Susano'o.

Cut short, Sasuke presumably must handled the appendages that are birth from the Eternal before his True Susanoo is realized. Sasuke must find out the functions of his recently acquired dōjutsu before that power can be transferred and create the True Susano'o. There's a precondition that allows the Susano'o to transform; which is unknown, but could be reason to Sasuke or the receiver mastering the powers of the donor's Mangekyō.

[Lightbringer]

Yes, Susano'o was a rarity. It doesn't mean that Izuna couldn't have possibly possessed one also, because he and his brother were only known as the first to awaken the Mangekyō. There could've been other Mangekyō users during that era, we don't know. If that were the case, then Susano'o would still be rare despite the fact that two people had awakened it. After all, there have seemingly been many failed attempts at awakening the EMS in this clan, which implies that there were a fair few Mangekyō Sharingan wielders [1].

Sasuke was able to control the flames but with great difficulty and discomfort. It was only after he had gained the EMS was he able to freely use this ability without consequence. Also, Enton is only a single MS ability. One gains Susano'o with the double Mangekyō - Susano'o is the 'third power'. This suggests that Susano'o is the ultimate MS technique and a level above the two which precede it. If that's the case, it may be that Susano'o is harder to use or at least more strenuous on the body.

we don't know much of the history between the Uchiha and the senju. We still don't know what Tobirama was capable of, which could have been on par with Hashi just like Izuna with madara.

Most people probably couldn't even handle stabilizing susanoo. If it were that easy, I'm sure many others would have it. More forms means harder to control which is why you usually see the skeletal susanoo more often than a completed form.

sasuke also had about a year of training(which is the time gap between Kage and War arc I believe) to master it. When he fought danzo and the kage, it was his first time using susanoo and controlling the amaterasu flames.

[Lightbringer]

Stabilizing the chakra is the final advent for actualizing the "True" Susano'o, and as you presume is a skill. The complete act emerges from the donor's eyes received to create the Eternal, which supplement the keepers own ocular powers, and must be handled to a certain point 'x' before being able to be reformed into the True Susano'o.

Cut short, Sasuke presumably must handled the appendages that are birth from the Eternal before Susanoo is realized. Sasuke must find out the functions of his recently acquired dōjutsu before that power can be transferred and create the True Susano'o. There's a precondition that allows the Susano'o to transform; which is unknown, but could be reason to Sasuke or the receiver mastering the powers of the donor's Mangekyō.

That doesn't prove anything. That's all just an assumption.

Sasuke was able to manipulate the amaterasu flames which is similar to stabilizing chakra. If he can do that, why can't you manipulate susanoo?

When naruto first started to train for rasengan, he needed help from clones to stabilize it and eventually got better at it.

Jiaraya and minato are able to cast rasengan without clones

Susanoo transforms on the will of user, not the tech(stabilizing)

So far as we know, the EMS has no affect on the users chakra, only their eyesight

[TheWillofFire]

Exactly, and we don't know how many times he fought Onoki, but in the flashback they showed he was wearing a konoha headband, meaning EMS madara. But that also means he could have had it before then as well since he already mastered it at the time apparently.

This might be slightly off topic but how do you know konoha headband Madara = EMS Madara.

And also back on topic, it is also believable PS is from MS and thats what prob caused Madara to lose eye sight, as Sasuke was losing eye sight to his Susanoo before he obtained EMS

[Noddy]

we don't know much of the history between the Uchiha and the senju. We still don't know what Tobirama was capable of, which could have been on par with Hashi just like Izuna with madara.

Yes, everything here is deductively inconclusive at most.

Most people probably couldn't even handle stabilizing susanoo. If it were that easy, I'm sure many others would have it. More forms means harder to control which is why you usually see the skeletal susanoo more often than a completed form.

sasuke also had about a year of training(which is the time gap between Kage and War arc I believe) to master it. When he fought danzo and the kage, it was his first time using susanoo and controlling the amaterasu flames.

In truth, I don't think it's likely that any MS user could stabilize Susano'o, especially something on the scale of the one which greeted the Gokage. You know, Sasuke's chakra has been compared to Madara's in the past, and even he was struggling to maintain a regular sized Susano'o. In addition to this, it seems that even using such a small defender heavily accelerated his loss of light. If Susano'o is the materialisation of chakra, and MS Madara could supposedly call forth something of that magnitude, how quickly would he lose his? Again, this remembering that Sasuke's chakra has been compared to Madara's. Also, no amount of training will reduce the amount of strain Susano'o has on the body. An MS user will never be able to spam MS techniques as freely as an EMS user. The only thing I will say is that a user could perhaps be desensitised to the pain. And again, Susano'o is the third power, dependent on the two before it. I'm sure it's more difficult to use and maintain.

[-Logic-]

One could argue that it is an EMS technique due to the fact that the EMS seemingly reduces the pain felt, and the Chakra required to use Susano'o. This is emphasized in Sasuke's bout with Kabuto; he hardly struggled maintaining his Susano'o. Therefore, presumably, the EMS is required. Also, surely the EMS would be required to stabilize such a large amount of Chakra, because with the MS the amount of pain you would feel would be ridiculous.

[Lightbringer]

This might be slightly off topic but how do you know konoha headband Madara = EMS Madara.

And also back on topic, it is also believable PS is from MS and thats what prob caused Madara to lose eye sight, as Sasuke was losing eye sight to his Susanoo before he obtained EMS

Everyone loses eyesight differently. Sasuke lost it before Itachi when Itachi has been using his for years.(which there is no way sasuke used it more that one time than Itachi did all his life)

Obito hasn't lost his yet. And neither did Kakashi(kakashi also is losing his eyesight since he told Itachi about it when they fought early in shippuden)

Madara took his brother's eyes before they became partners with the Senju and established Konoha. That was his whole reason for the hatred of the Senju, that his brother died for nothing, since the EMS was so that he could crush the senju with it's power.

[TheWillofFire]

One could argue that it is an EMS technique due to the fact that the EMS seemingly reduces the pain felt, and the Chakra required to use Susano'o. This is emphasized in Sasuke's bout with Kabuto; he hardly struggled maintaining his Susano'o. Therefore, presumably, the EMS is required. Also, surely the EMS would be required to stabilize such a large amount of Chakra, because with the MS the amount of pain you would feel would be ridiculous.

Why do you think Madara was in great pain when he lost his eye sight, big huge whip lash of something thats for sure

[Lightbringer]

One could argue that it is an EMS technique due to the fact that the EMS seemingly reduces the pain felt, and the Chakra required to use Susano'o. This is emphasized in Sasuke's bout with Kabuto; he hardly struggled maintaining his Susano'o. Therefore, presumably, the EMS is required. Also, surely the EMS would be required to stabilize such a large amount of Chakra, because with the MS the amount of pain you would feel would be ridiculous.

Wasn't there a time gap for about a year between the kage and war arc? Which is enough time for Sasuke to train to handle it's affects. Do you think Madara was always in pain when he used it with MS? I doubt it....

It's similar to how Naruto was able to master both chakra and bijuu mode.

At first bijuu mode only lasted 5min, and now it's 8min if I'm not mistaken.....all it took was practice, nothing more.

[★Varrah]

That doesn't prove anything. That's all just an assumption.

Sasuke was able to manipulate the amaterasu flames which is similar to stabilizing chakra.

When naruto first started to train for rasengan, he needed help from clones to stabilize it and eventually got better at it.

Jiaraya and minato are able to cast rasengan without clones

Susanoo transforms on the will of user, not the tech(stabilizing) if he can do that, why can't you manipulate susanoo?

So far as we know, the EMS has no affect on the users chakra, only their eyesight

Yep; noted. [1] [2]

All my preceding post was claiming is that Sasuke presumably needs to find out the condition that allows him to reform his Susano'o into the True version. As of yet, Sasuke did not show how, while Madara did. This could be because Madara learned the mechanics of his Eternal, and discovered that stabilizing Susano'o transforms it, as opposed to Sasuke who has shown limited advancements.

[Lightbringer]

Yes, everything here is deductively inconclusive at most.



In truth, I don't think it's likely that any MS user could stabilize Susano'o, especially something on the scale of the one which greeted the Gokage. You know, Sasuke's chakra has been compared to Madara's in the past, and even he was struggling to maintain a regular sized Susano'o. In addition to this, it seems that even using such a small defender heavily accelerated his loss of light. If Susano'o is the materialisation of chakra, and MS Madara could supposedly call forth something of that magnitude, how quickly would he lose his? Again, this remembering that Sasuke's chakra has been compared to Madara's. Also, no amount of training will reduce the amount of strain Susano'o has on the body. An MS user will never be able to spam MS techniques as freely as an EMS user. The only thing I will say is that a user could perhaps be desensitised to the pain. And again, Susano'o is the third power, dependent on the two before it. I'm sure it's more difficult to use and maintain.

The MS users lose their eyesight differently. Sasuke lost his in a few days. Itachi lost his within years and there's no way that Sasuke his more than Itachi's.

Madara fought everyday using it and can be assumed that he losts his in a few years since his clan became famous because of him and his brother. His brother didn't lose his.