why do people think PS is an EMS tech?

[-Logic-]

Wasn't there a time gap for about a year between the kage and war arc? Which is enough time for Sasuke to train to handle it's affects. Do you think Madara was always in pain when he used it with MS? I doubt it....

It's similar to how Naruto was able to master both chakra and bijuu mode.

At first bijuu mode only lasted 5min, and now it's 8min if I'm not mistaken.....all it took was practice, nothing more.

Sasuke, and both Itachi, have struggled to maintain the Susano'o through their respective Mangekyō Sharingan. Thus, one could say that Madara also struggled with the MS. One thing you must remember though, is that as soon as the EMS was introduced Sasuke had absolutely no trouble at all using Susano'o; remember this? [1] During that time, Sasuke felt no pain either. Therefore, it's possible that the ultimate stability of Susano'o is achieved through the Eien no Mangekyō Sharingan.

Hmm, interesting point. But we can't apply the BM gradual improvement logic onto the Mangekyō Sharingan Susano'o development idea; they're two entirely different things, though I see where it is you're coming from.

Also, this:

As of yet, Sasuke did not show how, while Madara did. This could be because Madara learned the mechanics of his Eternal, and discovered that stabilizing Susano'o transforms it, as opposed to Sasuke who has shown limited advancements.

[Lightbringer]

Yep; noted. [1] [2]

All my preceding post was claiming is that Sasuke presumably needs to find out the condition that allows him to reform his Susano'o into the True version. As of yet, Sasuke did not show how, while Madara did. This could be because Madara learned the mechanics of his Eternal, and discovered that stabilizing Susano'o transforms it, as opposed to Sasuke who has shown limited advancements.

Well Madara is a different kind of breed. He was the first to awaken both MS and EMS, second to gain rinnegan, first to control a bijuu, etc.

It's no surprise that Madara would be able to figure something like that out. He was the father of the MS, thus he has mastery over it.

Sasuke has yet to achieve that point, and I'm sure he will someday. He could have learned to stabilize his Susanoo during his EMS era, but it's not a tech given with the EMS.

[TrollingSage]

One could argue that it is an EMS technique due to the fact that the EMS seemingly reduces the pain felt, and the Chakra required to use Susano'o. This is emphasized in Sasuke's bout with Kabuto; he hardly struggled maintaining his Susano'o. Therefore, presumably, the EMS is required. Also, surely the EMS would be required to stabilize such a large amount of Chakra, because with the MS the amount of pain you would feel would be ridiculous.

He didnt seem to have any problems maintaining susano against though.

[Lightbringer]

Sasuke, and both Itachi, have struggled to maintain the Susano'o through their respective Mangekyō Sharingan. Thus, one could say that Madara also struggled with the MS. One thing you must remember though, is that as soon as the EMS was introduced Sasuke had absolutely no trouble at all using Susano'o; remember this? [1] During that time, Sasuke felt no pain either. Therefore, it's possible that the ultimate stability of Susano'o is achieved through the Eien no Mangekyō Sharingan.

Hmm, interesting point. But we can't apply the BM gradual improvement logic onto the Mangekyō Sharingan Susano'o development idea; they're two entirely different things, though I see where it is you're coming from.

When Itachi used his susanoo and amaterasu he was already in pain from his illness and it could be assumed that he didn't use it all too often either, seeing as though zetsu didn't even know about Susanoo and were excited to see him use amaterasu.

Sasuke used it more often than Itachi and also had the year gap of training to overcome the pain.

Just like people overcoming pain in real life. If you fight a lot, you can take the damage more easily than people who never fought in their lives.

Kakashi seemed to get over his backlash with Kamui.

[-Logic-]

He didnt seem to have any problems maintaining susano against though.

Against whom?

When Itachi used his susanoo and amaterasu he was already in pain from his illness and it could be assumed that he didn't use it all too often either, seeing as though zetsu didn't even know about Susanoo and were excited to see him use amaterasu.

Sasuke used it more often than Itachi and also had the year gap of training to overcome the pain.

Just like people overcoming pain in real life. If you fight a lot, you can take the damage more easily than people who never fought in their lives.

Kakashi seemed to get over his backlash with Kamui.

Your first point is irrelevant; for Susano'o requires both Mangekyō Sharingan to be used, so, despite the fact that Itachi had used Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu before, respectively, it's only logical that the strain of Susano'o would be more than that of, say, Amaterasu.

As for your point about Sasuke. Hmm, true. However, do you really think that the pain can be reduced to the point where you'd be able to stabilize a form of Chakra equivalent or slightly larger than the Gedō Mazō? Questionable.

[BlueSky Garrett]

I agree, good analysis!

[Noddy]

The MS users lose their eyesight differently. Sasuke lost his in a few days. Itachi lost his within years and there's no way that Sasuke his more than Itachi's.

Madara fought everyday using it and can be assumed that he losts his in a few years since his clan became famous because of him and his brother. His brother didn't lose his.

Yeah, and what was Sasuke using? Susano'o, Susano'o, Susano'o. Itachi knew he needed die by Sasuke's hand, so he used his Mangekyō Sharingan techniques wisely and sparingly. We only ever saw him use his two, single MS techniques before his final fight; Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu. Orochimaru, who seemingly knows everything and has Kabuto has a spy, only found out the traits of Itachi's Susano'o in the final battle. White Zetsu, famed for his pro-reconnaissance abilities, hadn't seen it. All of which implies that Itachi hardly ever used Susano'o - which is no surprise considering his eyesight lasted laughably longer than Sasuke's. That's why i'm saying the 'third power' is going to be much more of a double-edged technique to MS users, because it's more powerful and therefore more dangerous to use.

Madara was famed for his MS abilities, and as leader he would've probably needed to go all out on more occasions than Izuna (because he was fighting no ordinary Senju - he was fighting Hashirama).

[Lightbringer]

Against whom?



Your first point is irrelevant; for Susano'o requires both Mangekyō Sharingan to be used, so, despite the fact that Itachi had used Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu before, respectively, it's only logical that the strain of Susano'o would be more than that of, say, Amaterasu.

As for your point about Sasuke. Hmm, true. However, do you really think that the pain can be reduced to the point where you'd be able to stabilize a form of Chakra equivalent or slightly larger than the Gedō Mazō? Questionable.

Well Kakashi was able to Kamui Bee in Bijuu form no problem when kamuing an arm off made him practically faint at first.

If the pain really did last throughout MS, do you think Madara would have survived all those battles with Hashirama(who didn't have backlash at all and can break through regular susanoo easily) when Madara had the MS with all those backlashes?

[Lightbringer]

Yeah, and what was Sasuke using? Susano'o, Susano'o, Susano'o. Itachi knew he needed die by Sasuke's hand, so he used his Mangekyō Sharingan techniques wisely and sparingly. We only ever saw him use his two, single MS techniques before his final fight; Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu. Orochimaru, who seemingly knows everything and has Kabuto has a spy, only found out the traits of Itachi's Susano'o in the final battle. White Zetsu, famed for his pro-reconnaissance abilities, hadn't seen it. All of which implies that Itachi hardly ever used Susano'o - which is no surprise considering his eyesight lasted laughably longer than Sasuke's. That's why i'm saying the 'third power' is going to be much more of a double-edged technique to MS users, because it's more powerful and therefore more dangerous to use.

Madara was famed for his MS abilities, and as leader he would've probably needed to go all out on more occasions than Izuna (because he was fighting no ordinary Senju - he was fighting Hashirama).

Nonetheless, it took Madara years to lose his eyesight after using it practically everyday when it took Sasuke about a week or so.

[-Logic-]

Well Kakashi was able to Kamui Bee in Bijuu form no problem when kamuing an arm off made him practically faint at first.

If the pain really did last throughout MS, do you think Madara would have survived all those battles with Hashirama(who didn't have backlash at all and can break through regular susanoo easily) when Madara had the MS with all those backlashes?

Your last point is good. Hmm...we can only assume on how many battles Madara had with Hashirama. What's more is that we can only assume how many times he used the Mangekyō. For all we know, these could've been simply Taijutsu-oriented fights. Or, for all we know, Madara didn't abuse the Mangekyō. Take Itachi for example, he wields the Mangekyō yet he became blind over the course of about 8 years. Madara could've been the same. Also, Madara's fights with Hashirama possibly weren't all extremely serious ones - ones where the Mangekyō was not necessarily required to be used, at least.

[Noddy]

Nonetheless, it took Madara years to lose his eyesight after using it practically everyday when it took Sasuke about a week or so.

We don't know how long it took, the length of time was unspecified.

[★Varrah]

Well Madara is a different kind of breed. He was the first to awaken both MS and EMS, second to gain rinnegan, first to control a bijuu, etc.

It's no surprise that Madara would be able to figure something like that out. He was the father of the MS, thus he has mastery over it.

Sasuke has yet to achieve that point, and I'm sure he will someday. He could have learned to stabilize his Susanoo during his EMS era, but it's not a tech given with the EMS.

Presumably so; however it currently appears not to have dawned on Sasuke that stabilizing Susanoo is a necessity to bolster it to its next stage. This can be due to a number of things, but I think its because of not completely mastering the douryoku of the Eternal—leading him to discern which methods would bring about the desired aesthetics. I think the ability to use the technique is there, but due to a lack of experience he has not realized it.


I'm merely claiming that it is because of the conjoining powers that create the Eien no Mangekyō Sharingan, that the True Susano'o is able to be birth in the first place.

[-Logic-]

Presumably so; however it currently appears not to have dawned on Sasuke that stabilizing Susanoo is a necessity to bolster it to its next stage. This can be due to a number of things, but I think its because of not completely mastering the Eternal—leading him to discern which methods would bring about the desired aesthetics. I think the ability to use the technique is there, but due to a lack of experience he has not realized it.


I'm merely claiming that it is because of the conjoining powers that create the Eien no Mangekyō Sharingan, that the True Susano'o is able to be birth in the first place.

Listen to this man right here.

[Lightbringer]

Your last point is good. Hmm...we can only assume on how many battles Madara had with Hashirama. What's more is that we can only assume how many times he used the Mangekyō. For all we know, these could've been simply Taijutsu-oriented fights. Or, for all we know, Madara didn't abuse the Mangekyō. Take Itachi for example, he wields the Mangekyō yet he became blind over the course of about 8 years. Madara could've been the same. Also, Madara's fights with Hashirama possibly weren't all extremely serious ones - ones where the Mangekyō was not necessarily required to be used, at least.

I don't see why they wouldn't be serious. Even in this shinobi world war, we see just about everyone using their abilities to the full extent, and that's what Madara was in constantly....war.

The Senju and Uchiha were rivals. I wouldn't doubt that Madara tried to crush the Senju by going all out so his clan would reign supreme.

Not to mention the hostility he had against Hashirama and the senju, even now. He calls senju ugly.

Especially with the fact that Hashi could heal his wound instantly, I don't think Madara would always just "spar" with him.

And if it was that simple for Hashi to kill Madara if he could heal his wounds and be nearly invincible, why didn't he and end all the bloodshed that came with waring against the Uchiha?

...Unless he was stopped by Madara's PS or something.

[Lightbringer]

Presumably so; however it currently appears not to have dawned on Sasuke that stabilizing Susanoo is a necessity to bolster it to its next stage. This can be due to a number of things, but I think its because of not completely mastering the douryoku of the Eternal—leading him to discern which methods would bring about the desired aesthetics. I think the ability to use the technique is there, but due to a lack of experience he has not realized it.


I'm merely claiming that it is because of the conjoining powers that create the Eien no Mangekyō Sharingan, that the True Susano'o is able to be birth in the first place.

and what about the whole thing Itachi said of the "EMS giving birth to a completely new tech?"

The PS is not completely new, just another form of a previous tech.

If the EMS gave PS along with a completely new tech, wouldn't that also mean that it enhanced every other MS tech like amaterasu and tsukuyomi?

[-Logic-]

I don't see why they wouldn't be serious. Even in this shinobi world war, we see just about everyone using their abilities to the full extent, and that's what Madara was in constantly....war.

The Senju and Uchiha were rivals. I wouldn't doubt that Madara tried to crush the Senju by going all out so his clan would reign supreme.

Not to mention the hostility he had against Hashirama and the senju, even now. He calls senju ugly.

Especially with the fact that Hashi could heal his wound instantly, I don't think Madara would always just "spar" with him.

And if it was that simple for Hashi to kill Madara if he could heal his wounds and be nearly invincible, why didn't he and end all the bloodshed that came with waring against the Uchiha?

...Unless he was stopped by Madara's PS or something.

I'd just like to start off by saying debating with you has been a pleasure - thanks.

Back to the main issue; Madara's blindness, in terms of how long it lasted, has never been specified. Thus, it's still possible that he used the True Susano'o through his Eien no Mangekyō Sharingan, and his regular Susano'o through his Mangekyō Sharingan.

and what about the whole thing Itachi said of the "EMS giving birth to a completely new tech?"

The PS is not completely new, just another form of a previous tech.

If the EMS gave PS along with a completely new tech, wouldn't that also mean that it enhanced every other MS tech like amaterasu and tsukuyomi?

@Bold: Itachi was referring to the Rinnegan; if you look in the background of the Manga page when Itachi said that, on the creature behind Itachi, on it's forehead - above it's eyes - you see the Rinnegan. [1]

@Underlined: That's just an assumption. Also, the EMS doesn't really give you a new 'technique', so to speak. It just gives you the ability to be able to stabilize Susano'o...

I hope it's clear to you now.

[Lightbringer]

We don't know how long it took, the length of time was unspecified.

Well for a clan to become known as the strongest in the world, along with the senju. I don't think it would take less than a number of years.

[Lightbringer]

I'd just like to start off by saying debating with you has been a pleasure - thanks.

Back to the main issue; Madara's blindness, in terms of how long it lasted, has never been specified. Thus, it's still possible that he used the True Susano'o through his Eien no Mangekyō Sharingan, and his regular Susano'o through his Mangekyō Sharingan.

Same goes to you, you're worthy of your name ^_^

but in the end it is all just assumptions, though I will still stand by my theory of it being an MS tech.

and I also believe that every Uchiha loses their eyesight differently. I posted many comments with other people about this and kinda don't like to go through all that again.

But my point was that Madara used his MS everyday, for many years assuming(since he made his clan to be known as one of the strongest which doesn't take just a week)

Sasuke lost his in a matter of weeks/days

Kakashi still retained his although he did mention to Itachi in an early shippuden battle about the blindness(how would he know that unless he was going blind as well?)

and Itachi lost his over a certain amount of years(although he could have not used his that much either)

[-Logic-]

Same goes to you, you're worthy of your name ^_^

but in the end it is all just assumptions, though I will still stand by my theory of it being an MS tech.

True, at this point we can only assume and/or theorize. By the way, read this:

and what about the whole thing Itachi said of the "EMS giving birth to a completely new tech?"

The PS is not completely new, just another form of a previous tech.

If the EMS gave PS along with a completely new tech, wouldn't that also mean that it enhanced every other MS tech like amaterasu and tsukuyomi?

@Bold: Itachi was referring to the Rinnegan; if you look in the background of the Manga page when Itachi said that, on the creature behind Itachi, on it's forehead - above it's eyes - you see the Rinnegan. [1]

@Underlined: That's just an assumption. Also, the EMS doesn't really give you a new 'technique', so to speak. It just gives you the ability to be able to stabilize Susano'o...in my opinion.

[Lightbringer]

True, at this point we can only assume and/or theorize. By the way, read this:



@Bold: Itachi was referring to the Rinnegan; if you look in the background of the Manga page when Itachi said that, on the creature behind Itachi, on it's forehead - above it's eyes - you see the Rinnegan. [1]

@Underlined: That's just an assumption. Also, the EMS doesn't really give you a new 'technique', so to speak. It just gives you the ability to be able to stabilize Susano'o...in my opinion.

Btw I updated my last comment addressing the loss of sight topic.

As for the other, without senju cells, one can't awaken the rinnegan, so how can Itachi be referring to that especially since he didn't know Madara himself and see his rinnegan?

and if the rinnegan was the new tech, then wouldn't they just get the rinnegan and not EMS?

[★Varrah]

and what about the whole thing Itachi said of the "EMS giving birth to a completely new tech?"

The PS is not completely new, just another form of a previous tech.

If the EMS gave PS along with a completely new tech, wouldn't that also mean that it enhanced every other MS tech like amaterasu and tsukuyomi?

It still aligns itself. The True Susano'o isn't a new technique, but rather an enhancement from the Eternal.

Err, you can say so, but it isn't necessary. We both are speculating. I think Itachi's statement refers to the douryoku of the donor's Mangekyō intertwining itself with receiver's: creating this technique.

If Masashi did not leave Madara's Eien no Mangekyō Sharingan absent, we'd have our answers.

[-Logic-]

Btw I updated my last comment addressing the loss of sight topic.

As for the other, without senju cells, one can't awaken the rinnegan, so how can Itachi be referring to that especially since he didn't know Madara himself and see his rinnegan?

and if the rinnegan was the new tech, then wouldn't they just get the rinnegan and not EMS?

It's possible that with the Mangekyō Sharingan Itachi was able to deduce that Madara had the Rinnegan, as I recall Madara's bodily secrets were recorded on the Stone Tablet.

Itachi was probably alluding that the EMS gives birth to the Rinnegan, as in, it allows the possibility of attaining the Rinnegan to become a reality, something which would stem from the EMS.

[Lightbringer]

It still aligns itself. The True Susano'o isn't a new technique, but rather an enhancement from the Eternal.

Err, you can say so, but it isn't necessary. We both are speculating. I think Itachi's statement refers to the douryoku of the donor's Mangekyō intertwining itself with receiver's: creating this technique.

If Masashi did not leave Madara's Eien no Mangekyō Sharingan absent, we'd have our answers.

Nonetheless I still believe PS is a MS tech. I gave this example to Logic about how did Madara survive against Hashi from their countless battles if Hashi can easily break a regular Susanoo?

And yes it all just speculating, but personally I see there are more indications of it being an MS tech than EMS. Though I still respect your opinion, don't get me wrong! ^_^

[Lightbringer]

It's possible that with the Mangekyō Sharingan Itachi was able to deduce that Madara had the Rinnegan, as I recall Madara's bodily secrets were recorded on the Stone Tablet.

Itachi was probably alluding that the EMS gives birth to the Rinnegan, as in, it allows the possibility of attaining the Rinnegan to become a reality, something which would stem from the EMS.

I guess we'll never know, but nonetheless if what you're saying is true about Itachi alluding to it....then wouldn't that also foreshadow to Sasuke getting the rinnegan as well?

A completely different topic I know, but I don't think Sasuke will get it since it will be too much for Naruto to handle with him being able to such up most of his techs and all.

[-Logic-]

I guess we'll never know, but nonetheless if what you're saying is true about Itachi alluding to it....then wouldn't that also foreshadow to Sasuke getting the rinnegan as well?

A completely different topic I know, but I don't think Sasuke will get it since it will be too much for Naruto to handle with him being able to such up most of his techs and all.

Precisely; Sasuke is more than destined to get the Rinnegan, believe me.