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  1. #61
    第五世代 Draphsin's Avatar
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    Re: why do people think PS is an EMS tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightbringer View Post
    It has never been mentioned that the EMS affects chakra. Only the ability to not lose sight thus far. Sasuke was able to manipulate amaterasu with just an MS.
    Its obvious that EMS affects the chakra, for example when sasuke fought danzou he could barely maintain a regular susanoo. But when we see sasuke fighting kabuto he was able to instantly enter his full susanoo form and use amaterasu at a large scale without showing any sign of fatigue. If MS sasuke fought kabuto he wouldnt last 5 minutes because by then his susanoo would exhaust him
     
         

  2. #62
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    Re: why do people think PS is an EMS tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by Draphsin View Post
    Its obvious that EMS affects the chakra, for example when sasuke fought danzou he could barely maintain a regular susanoo. But when we see sasuke fighting kabuto he was able to instantly enter his full susanoo form and use amaterasu at a large scale without showing any sign of fatigue. If MS sasuke fought kabuto he wouldnt last 5 minutes because by then his susanoo would exhaust him
    he also had about a year of training. I believe that was the gap between the war and kage arc. Remember how naruto couldn't control his chakra mode at first but then got used to it?

    He used to only be able to do 5min with bijuu mode and now he can do I believe it was 8min.
     
         

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    Re: why do people think PS is an EMS tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightbringer View Post
    Izuna could have just not possessed a susanoo. Susanoo was a rarity. And Sasuke was able to control the flames of Amaterasu with just the MS. Isn't that similar?

    Besides it has never been mentioned that the EMS effects chakra, only the ability to not lose sight.
    Yes, Susano'o was a rarity. It doesn't mean that Izuna couldn't have possibly possessed one also, because he and his brother were only known as the first to awaken the Mangekyō. There could've been other Mangekyō users during that era, we don't know. If that were the case, then Susano'o would still be rare despite the fact that two people had awakened it. After all, there have seemingly been many failed attempts at awakening the EMS in this clan, which implies that there were a fair few Mangekyō Sharingan wielders [1].

    Sasuke was able to control the flames but with great difficulty and discomfort. It was only after he had gained the EMS was he able to freely use this ability without consequence. Also, Enton is only a single MS ability. One gains Susano'o with the double Mangekyō - Susano'o is the 'third power'. This suggests that Susano'o is the ultimate MS technique and a level above the two which precede it. If that's the case, it may be that Susano'o is harder to use or at least more strenuous on the body.
     
         

  4. #64
    ソロキング -Logic-'s Avatar
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    Re: why do people think PS is an EMS tech?


    Ah! Forgive me OP; I thought you were insinuating that PS was a Rinnegan technique. My bad, homie . Now that I think about it, you may be right.
     
         

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    Re: why do people think PS is an EMS tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightbringer View Post
    Stabilizing chakra isn't a tech, just a skill. If the PS was merely just a new form given with the EMS, wouldn't it just transform like any other susanoo form had....from rib cage to skeletal, etc...without having to command it?

    Stabilizing the chakra is the final advent for actualizing the "True" Susano'o, and as you presume is a skill. The complete act emerges from the donor's eyes received to create the Eternal, which supplement the keepers own ocular powers, and must be handled to a certain point 'x' before being able to be reformed into the True Susano'o.

    Cut short, Sasuke presumably must handled the appendages that are birth from the Eternal before his True Susanoo is realized. Sasuke must find out the functions of his recently acquired dōjutsu before that power can be transferred and create the True Susano'o. There's a precondition that allows the Susano'o to transform; which is unknown, but could be reason to Sasuke or the receiver mastering the powers of the donor's Mangekyō.
     
         

  6. #66
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    Re: why do people think PS is an EMS tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noddy View Post
    Yes, Susano'o was a rarity. It doesn't mean that Izuna couldn't have possibly possessed one also, because he and his brother were only known as the first to awaken the Mangekyō. There could've been other Mangekyō users during that era, we don't know. If that were the case, then Susano'o would still be rare despite the fact that two people had awakened it. After all, there have seemingly been many failed attempts at awakening the EMS in this clan, which implies that there were a fair few Mangekyō Sharingan wielders [1].

    Sasuke was able to control the flames but with great difficulty and discomfort. It was only after he had gained the EMS was he able to freely use this ability without consequence. Also, Enton is only a single MS ability. One gains Susano'o with the double Mangekyō - Susano'o is the 'third power'. This suggests that Susano'o is the ultimate MS technique and a level above the two which precede it. If that's the case, it may be that Susano'o is harder to use or at least more strenuous on the body.
    we don't know much of the history between the Uchiha and the senju. We still don't know what Tobirama was capable of, which could have been on par with Hashi just like Izuna with madara.

    Most people probably couldn't even handle stabilizing susanoo. If it were that easy, I'm sure many others would have it. More forms means harder to control which is why you usually see the skeletal susanoo more often than a completed form.

    sasuke also had about a year of training(which is the time gap between Kage and War arc I believe) to master it. When he fought danzo and the kage, it was his first time using susanoo and controlling the amaterasu flames.
     
         

  7. #67
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    Re: why do people think PS is an EMS tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by Varrah View Post
    Stabilizing the chakra is the final advent for actualizing the "True" Susano'o, and as you presume is a skill. The complete act emerges from the donor's eyes received to create the Eternal, which supplement the keepers own ocular powers, and must be handled to a certain point 'x' before being able to be reformed into the True Susano'o.

    Cut short, Sasuke presumably must handled the appendages that are birth from the Eternal before Susanoo is realized. Sasuke must find out the functions of his recently acquired dōjutsu before that power can be transferred and create the True Susano'o. There's a precondition that allows the Susano'o to transform; which is unknown, but could be reason to Sasuke or the receiver mastering the powers of the donor's Mangekyō.
    That doesn't prove anything. That's all just an assumption.

    Sasuke was able to manipulate the amaterasu flames which is similar to stabilizing chakra. If he can do that, why can't you manipulate susanoo?

    When naruto first started to train for rasengan, he needed help from clones to stabilize it and eventually got better at it.

    Jiaraya and minato are able to cast rasengan without clones

    Susanoo transforms on the will of user, not the tech(stabilizing)

    So far as we know, the EMS has no affect on the users chakra, only their eyesight
     
         
    Last edited by Lightbringer; 12-30-2012 at 01:42 AM.

  8. #68
    火の意志なめるな TheWillofFire's Avatar
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    Re: why do people think PS is an EMS tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightbringer View Post
    Exactly, and we don't know how many times he fought Onoki, but in the flashback they showed he was wearing a konoha headband, meaning EMS madara. But that also means he could have had it before then as well since he already mastered it at the time apparently.
    This might be slightly off topic but how do you know konoha headband Madara = EMS Madara.

    And also back on topic, it is also believable PS is from MS and thats what prob caused Madara to lose eye sight, as Sasuke was losing eye sight to his Susanoo before he obtained EMS
     
         

  9. #69
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    Re: why do people think PS is an EMS tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightbringer View Post
    we don't know much of the history between the Uchiha and the senju. We still don't know what Tobirama was capable of, which could have been on par with Hashi just like Izuna with madara.
    Yes, everything here is deductively inconclusive at most.

    Most people probably couldn't even handle stabilizing susanoo. If it were that easy, I'm sure many others would have it. More forms means harder to control which is why you usually see the skeletal susanoo more often than a completed form.

    sasuke also had about a year of training(which is the time gap between Kage and War arc I believe) to master it. When he fought danzo and the kage, it was his first time using susanoo and controlling the amaterasu flames.
    In truth, I don't think it's likely that any MS user could stabilize Susano'o, especially something on the scale of the one which greeted the Gokage. You know, Sasuke's chakra has been compared to Madara's in the past, and even he was struggling to maintain a regular sized Susano'o. In addition to this, it seems that even using such a small defender heavily accelerated his loss of light. If Susano'o is the materialisation of chakra, and MS Madara could supposedly call forth something of that magnitude, how quickly would he lose his? Again, this remembering that Sasuke's chakra has been compared to Madara's. Also, no amount of training will reduce the amount of strain Susano'o has on the body. An MS user will never be able to spam MS techniques as freely as an EMS user. The only thing I will say is that a user could perhaps be desensitised to the pain. And again, Susano'o is the third power, dependent on the two before it. I'm sure it's more difficult to use and maintain.
     
         

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    ソロキング -Logic-'s Avatar
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    Re: why do people think PS is an EMS tech?


    One could argue that it is an EMS technique due to the fact that the EMS seemingly reduces the pain felt, and the Chakra required to use Susano'o. This is emphasized in Sasuke's bout with Kabuto; he hardly struggled maintaining his Susano'o. Therefore, presumably, the EMS is required. Also, surely the EMS would be required to stabilize such a large amount of Chakra, because with the MS the amount of pain you would feel would be ridiculous.
     
         

  11. #71
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    Re: why do people think PS is an EMS tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheWillofFire View Post
    This might be slightly off topic but how do you know konoha headband Madara = EMS Madara.

    And also back on topic, it is also believable PS is from MS and thats what prob caused Madara to lose eye sight, as Sasuke was losing eye sight to his Susanoo before he obtained EMS
    Everyone loses eyesight differently. Sasuke lost it before Itachi when Itachi has been using his for years.(which there is no way sasuke used it more that one time than Itachi did all his life)

    Obito hasn't lost his yet. And neither did Kakashi(kakashi also is losing his eyesight since he told Itachi about it when they fought early in shippuden)

    Madara took his brother's eyes before they became partners with the Senju and established Konoha. That was his whole reason for the hatred of the Senju, that his brother died for nothing, since the EMS was so that he could crush the senju with it's power.



     
         

  12. #72
    火の意志なめるな TheWillofFire's Avatar
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    Re: why do people think PS is an EMS tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by -Logic- View Post

    One could argue that it is an EMS technique due to the fact that the EMS seemingly reduces the pain felt, and the Chakra required to use Susano'o. This is emphasized in Sasuke's bout with Kabuto; he hardly struggled maintaining his Susano'o. Therefore, presumably, the EMS is required. Also, surely the EMS would be required to stabilize such a large amount of Chakra, because with the MS the amount of pain you would feel would be ridiculous.
    Why do you think Madara was in great pain when he lost his eye sight, big huge whip lash of something thats for sure
     
         

  13. #73
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    Re: why do people think PS is an EMS tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by -Logic- View Post

    One could argue that it is an EMS technique due to the fact that the EMS seemingly reduces the pain felt, and the Chakra required to use Susano'o. This is emphasized in Sasuke's bout with Kabuto; he hardly struggled maintaining his Susano'o. Therefore, presumably, the EMS is required. Also, surely the EMS would be required to stabilize such a large amount of Chakra, because with the MS the amount of pain you would feel would be ridiculous.
    Wasn't there a time gap for about a year between the kage and war arc? Which is enough time for Sasuke to train to handle it's affects. Do you think Madara was always in pain when he used it with MS? I doubt it....

    It's similar to how Naruto was able to master both chakra and bijuu mode.

    At first bijuu mode only lasted 5min, and now it's 8min if I'm not mistaken.....all it took was practice, nothing more.
     
         

  14. #74
    Member Varrah's Avatar
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    Re: why do people think PS is an EMS tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightbringer View Post
    That doesn't prove anything. That's all just an assumption.

    Sasuke was able to manipulate the amaterasu flames which is similar to stabilizing chakra.

    When naruto first started to train for rasengan, he needed help from clones to stabilize it and eventually got better at it.

    Jiaraya and minato are able to cast rasengan without clones

    Susanoo transforms on the will of user, not the tech(stabilizing) if he can do that, why can't you manipulate susanoo?

    So far as we know, the EMS has no affect on the users chakra, only their eyesight


    Yep; noted. [1] [2]

    All my preceding post was claiming is that Sasuke presumably needs to find out the condition that allows him to reform his Susano'o into the True version. As of yet, Sasuke did not show how, while Madara did. This could be because Madara learned the mechanics of his Eternal, and discovered that stabilizing Susano'o transforms it, as opposed to Sasuke who has shown limited advancements.
     
         

  15. #75
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    Re: why do people think PS is an EMS tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noddy View Post
    Yes, everything here is deductively inconclusive at most.



    In truth, I don't think it's likely that any MS user could stabilize Susano'o, especially something on the scale of the one which greeted the Gokage. You know, Sasuke's chakra has been compared to Madara's in the past, and even he was struggling to maintain a regular sized Susano'o. In addition to this, it seems that even using such a small defender heavily accelerated his loss of light. If Susano'o is the materialisation of chakra, and MS Madara could supposedly call forth something of that magnitude, how quickly would he lose his? Again, this remembering that Sasuke's chakra has been compared to Madara's. Also, no amount of training will reduce the amount of strain Susano'o has on the body. An MS user will never be able to spam MS techniques as freely as an EMS user. The only thing I will say is that a user could perhaps be desensitised to the pain. And again, Susano'o is the third power, dependent on the two before it. I'm sure it's more difficult to use and maintain.
    The MS users lose their eyesight differently. Sasuke lost his in a few days. Itachi lost his within years and there's no way that Sasuke his more than Itachi's.

    Madara fought everyday using it and can be assumed that he losts his in a few years since his clan became famous because of him and his brother. His brother didn't lose his.
     
         

  16. #76
    ソロキング -Logic-'s Avatar
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    Re: why do people think PS is an EMS tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightbringer View Post
    Wasn't there a time gap for about a year between the kage and war arc? Which is enough time for Sasuke to train to handle it's affects. Do you think Madara was always in pain when he used it with MS? I doubt it....

    It's similar to how Naruto was able to master both chakra and bijuu mode.

    At first bijuu mode only lasted 5min, and now it's 8min if I'm not mistaken.....all it took was practice, nothing more.

    Sasuke, and both Itachi, have struggled to maintain the Susano'o through their respective Mangekyō Sharingan. Thus, one could say that Madara also struggled with the MS. One thing you must remember though, is that as soon as the EMS was introduced Sasuke had absolutely no trouble at all using Susano'o; remember this? [1] During that time, Sasuke felt no pain either. Therefore, it's possible that the ultimate stability of Susano'o is achieved through the Eien no Mangekyō Sharingan.

    Hmm, interesting point. But we can't apply the BM gradual improvement logic onto the Mangekyō Sharingan Susano'o development idea; they're two entirely different things, though I see where it is you're coming from.

    Also, this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Varrah View Post

    As of yet, Sasuke did not show how, while Madara did. This could be because Madara learned the mechanics of his Eternal, and discovered that stabilizing Susano'o transforms it, as opposed to Sasuke who has shown limited advancements.

     
         
    Last edited by -Logic-; 12-30-2012 at 02:03 AM.

  17. #77
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    Re: why do people think PS is an EMS tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by Varrah View Post

    Yep; noted. [1] [2]

    All my preceding post was claiming is that Sasuke presumably needs to find out the condition that allows him to reform his Susano'o into the True version. As of yet, Sasuke did not show how, while Madara did. This could be because Madara learned the mechanics of his Eternal, and discovered that stabilizing Susano'o transforms it, as opposed to Sasuke who has shown limited advancements.
    Well Madara is a different kind of breed. He was the first to awaken both MS and EMS, second to gain rinnegan, first to control a bijuu, etc.

    It's no surprise that Madara would be able to figure something like that out. He was the father of the MS, thus he has mastery over it.

    Sasuke has yet to achieve that point, and I'm sure he will someday. He could have learned to stabilize his Susanoo during his EMS era, but it's not a tech given with the EMS.
     
         

  18. #78
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    Re: why do people think PS is an EMS tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by -Logic- View Post

    One could argue that it is an EMS technique due to the fact that the EMS seemingly reduces the pain felt, and the Chakra required to use Susano'o. This is emphasized in Sasuke's bout with Kabuto; he hardly struggled maintaining his Susano'o. Therefore, presumably, the EMS is required. Also, surely the EMS would be required to stabilize such a large amount of Chakra, because with the MS the amount of pain you would feel would be ridiculous.
    He didnt seem to have any problems maintaining susano against though.
     
         

  19. #79
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    Re: why do people think PS is an EMS tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by -Logic- View Post

    Sasuke, and both Itachi, have struggled to maintain the Susano'o through their respective Mangekyō Sharingan. Thus, one could say that Madara also struggled with the MS. One thing you must remember though, is that as soon as the EMS was introduced Sasuke had absolutely no trouble at all using Susano'o; remember this? [1] During that time, Sasuke felt no pain either. Therefore, it's possible that the ultimate stability of Susano'o is achieved through the Eien no Mangekyō Sharingan.

    Hmm, interesting point. But we can't apply the BM gradual improvement logic onto the Mangekyō Sharingan Susano'o development idea; they're two entirely different things, though I see where it is you're coming from.
    When Itachi used his susanoo and amaterasu he was already in pain from his illness and it could be assumed that he didn't use it all too often either, seeing as though zetsu didn't even know about Susanoo and were excited to see him use amaterasu.

    Sasuke used it more often than Itachi and also had the year gap of training to overcome the pain.

    Just like people overcoming pain in real life. If you fight a lot, you can take the damage more easily than people who never fought in their lives.

    Kakashi seemed to get over his backlash with Kamui.
     
         

  20. #80
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    Re: why do people think PS is an EMS tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by TrollingSage View Post
    He didnt seem to have any problems maintaining susano against though.
    Against whom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightbringer View Post
    When Itachi used his susanoo and amaterasu he was already in pain from his illness and it could be assumed that he didn't use it all too often either, seeing as though zetsu didn't even know about Susanoo and were excited to see him use amaterasu.

    Sasuke used it more often than Itachi and also had the year gap of training to overcome the pain.

    Just like people overcoming pain in real life. If you fight a lot, you can take the damage more easily than people who never fought in their lives.

    Kakashi seemed to get over his backlash with Kamui.
    Your first point is irrelevant; for Susano'o requires both Mangekyō Sharingan to be used, so, despite the fact that Itachi had used Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu before, respectively, it's only logical that the strain of Susano'o would be more than that of, say, Amaterasu.

    As for your point about Sasuke. Hmm, true. However, do you really think that the pain can be reduced to the point where you'd be able to stabilize a form of Chakra equivalent or slightly larger than the Gedō Mazō? Questionable.
     
         
    Last edited by -Logic-; 12-30-2012 at 02:08 AM.

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