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  1. #401
    Sublime
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    Re: AotW: Contest Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by 'Kurapika View Post
    Potatoes potatos. That definition also doesn't indicate that an empire has to be in control of all its main land, and I did set examples. "Responding to your link here"
    And no, Imperialism is not a theory.
    And that last line of yours pretty much sums it up, Greece did want to expand beyond its borders, hence it did so. Be it when Greece was united or not.

    Also, you used 'borders' the same way I did, can't see what needs explaining.
    Yes love, you still don't explain how Ancient Greece was an empire tho :]
    Which is pretty much the point of the conversation because it was never one
    Who was the emperor in Greece?
    Greeks had colonies all around the mediteranian but they were never bonded as an empire, they did not have a monarch that controlled them all.

    The term empire derives from the Latin imperium (power, authority). Politically, an empire is a geographically extensive group of states and peoples (ethnic groups) united and ruled either by a monarch (emperor, empress) or an oligarchy. ~from wikipedia
    (Wikipedia for empire: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire )

    Are we playing with the definitions here? Show me a map of the 'Greek Empire' and the name of a monarch 'Greek empire' was ruled by or shhhh.

    ..oh and indeed I searched Imperialism, the wikipedia definition matches with what you say.
    Well you learn sth new everyday.
    So, so far I'll agree imperialism is also the act and the controlling of other countries. But even tho you were right about imperialism, it has nothing to do with how Greece was an empire (as Ancient Greece doesn't fit the definition of empire) .
     
         

  • #402
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    Re: AotW: Contest Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Sublime View Post
    Yes love, you still don't explain how Ancient Greece was an empire tho :]
    Which is pretty much the point of the conversation because it was never one
    Who was the emperor in Greece?
    Greeks had colonies all around the mediteranian but they were never bonded as an empire, they did not have a monarch that controlled them all.

    [I]The term empire derives from the Latin imperium (power, authority). Politically, an empire is a geographically extensive group of states and peoples (ethnic groups) united and ruled either by a monarch (emperor, empress) or an oligarchy. ~from wikipedia
    (Wikipedia for empire: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire )

    Are we playing with the definitions here? Show me a map of the 'Greek Empire' and the name of a monarch 'Greek empire' was ruled by or shhhh.

    ..oh and indeed I searched Imperialism, the wikipedia definition matches with what you say.
    Well you learn sth new everyday.
    So, so far I'll agree imperialism is also the act and the controlling of other countries. But even tho you were right about imperialism, it has nothing to do with how Greece was an empire (as Ancient Greece doesn't fit the definition of empire) .
    An empire doesn't need an emperor, Rome was ruled by Caesars, the Omayyad empire was ruled by Khalifatees.
    Being bonded an empire doesn't really make an empire what is, fitting the definition of empire is what makes it an empire.
    I guess we are, and yes, that definition seems quite accurate to me.
    The term empire derives from the Latin imperium (power, authority). Politically, an empire is a geographically extensive group of states and peoples (ethnic groups) [B]united and ruled either by a monarch (emperor, empress) or an oligarchy.
    I don't see where I contradicted the definition. Greece was a geographically extensive group of states, and was ruled by an oligarchy.

    I actually used the term imperialism instead of empire because the post you linked me to compared Greece to Ancient Egypt as an empire, so I argued that Greece was much more imperial than Egypt.
     
         

  • #403
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    Re: AotW: Contest Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by 'Kurapika View Post
    An empire doesn't need an emperor, Rome was ruled by Caesars, the Omayyad empire was ruled by Khalifatees.
    Being bonded an empire doesn't really make an empire what is, fitting the definition of empire is what makes it an empire.
    I guess we are, and yes, that definition seems quite accurate to me.

    I don't see where I contradicted the definition. Greece was a geographically extensive group of states, and was ruled by an oligarchy.

    I actually used the term imperialism instead of empire because the post you linked me to compared Greece to Ancient Egypt as an empire, so I argued that Greece was much more imperial than Egypt.
    Are you kidding me?
    Which was the oligarchy that ruled Greece?
    Ancient Greece does not fit the empire definition.
    Just accept it and lets stop wasting our time. You are contradicting facts here.
     
         

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    Re: AotW: Contest Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Sublime View Post
    Are you kidding me?
    Which was the oligarchy that ruled Greece?
    Ancient Greece does not fit the empire definition.
    Just accept it and lets stop wasting our time. You are contradicting facts here.
    Which oligarchy ruled Greece, you ask?.. o_o
    Lets do this one last time, shall we?
    Oligarchy (from Greek ὀλιγαρχία (oligarkhía); from ὀλίγος (olígos), meaning "a few", and ἄρχω (archo), meaning "to rule or to command") is a form of power structure in which power effectively rests with a small number of people. These people could be distinguished by royalty, wealth, family ties, education, corporate, or military control. Such states are often controlled by a few prominent families who pass their influence from one generation to the next.
    The Greek cities at first had a kind of more open approach to democracy, where all native male citizens were part of the oligarchy, but that wasn't really much of an oligarchy, but it did exclude women and slaves. But when leagues were formed and Greek became more of a federation, an oligarchy that included a select few from each city formed.
     
         
    Last edited by 'Kurapika; 12-03-2012 at 08:48 PM.

  • #405
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    Re: AotW: Contest Discussion

    I 've been observing this discussion for a while, and I've finally decided to comment myself, because this is clearly getting nowhere.

    Regarding the notion of empire: An empire is a state structure that usually consists of a) the (city-)state in power (e.g. Rome) and b) the invaded lands that have financial and trade relations (or even deeper ones) with the state in power. Clearly there is either an individual or a small group of people that leads the state in power, it goes like this:
    Ceasar->Rome->Roman Empire

    Greece has never EVER been an empire in the way Rome was, or the way Assyria was. That is because the Greeks were organized since the beginning in city-states which had certain relations but differed greatly in terms of political and social beliefs, and that is why they did not consider themselves natural allies. The only time before Alexander that the Greeks ever cooperated massively was during the Persian attacks, and one could say that back then they cooperated mostly because they had common terrain interests, not because they considered themselves to be of the same nation, and as such natural allies.

    Quote Originally Posted by 'Kurapika View Post
    The Greek cities at first had a kind of more open approach to democracy, where all native male citizens were part of the oligarchy, but that wasn't really much of an oligarchy, but it did exclude women and slaves. But when leagues were formed and Greek became more of a federation, an oligarchy that included a select few from each city formed.
    Which brings me to my next order of business. There are all kinds of mistakes in this comment of yours. First of all, not even half of the Greek city-states ever accepted the notion of democracy, and we must also take into account the fact that numerous conflicts took place between city-states because they did not agree on political matters, or even in the interior of city-states like Corfu, which suffered a horrible civil war that has been recorded by Thucydides.

    Oligarchy was just another form of government that was prefered in many Greek city-states, including Sparta. Oligarchy meant that only few of the male, free citizens of a city-state could participate in political decision-making. Democracy meant that all male, free citizens of a city-state could do so. Of course in both these cases, women, slaves, foreigners and younger men were excluded from the decision-making. However, that does not, by any means, imply that the Democracy of let's say Athens was not democratic. It's a tragic error to consider the Democracy of Athens an oligarchy just because it exclude these groups, because we simply CANNOT compare the beliefs of the present and of such a distant past. It's pointless and it gets us nowhere.

    Regarding the leagues, those had the characteristics of a hegemony, which shows a system of states, out of which one is more powerful than the others and is obliged to preserve the balance of the system. A hegemony, however, is NOT an empire. Though there was conflict between parties, it was more of a case of alliance (either wanted or necessitated), than a case of invasion and control of a city-state by another. If anything, an empire doesn't form from one day to another; decades are usually needed to adopt the standard structure of the empire, as it shows quite a number of complications in practice. No actual empire existed in Greece or was created by the Greeks before the time of Alexander, and if anything I am pretty sure that the Ancient Greek civilization we 're talking about here is of the era before the Peloponnesian War. As such, what Alexander did (or tried to) is completely irrelevant to this argument.
     
         

  • #406
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    Re: AotW: Contest Discussion

    All I know about ancient Greece are the gods, poets, philosophers and Archimedes @.@,... Acropolis...

    and Odyssey epic poem @@
     
         

  • #407
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    Re: AotW: Contest Discussion

    I cannot believe you guys are having a full-fledged discussion over such a minuscule part of the contest... and using Wikipedia as your ultimate source.

    Definition of Empire via the Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

    Definition of EMPIRE

    1
    a (1) : a major political unit having a territory of great extent or a number of territories or peoples under a single sovereign authority; especially : one having an emperor as chief of state (2) : the territory of such a political unit
    b : something resembling a political empire; especially : an extensive territory or enterprise under single domination or control
    2
    : imperial sovereignty, rule, or dominion
    3
    capitalized [Empire State, nickname for New York] : a juicy apple with dark red skin that is a cross between a McIntosh apple and a Red Delicious apple
    Though very limited in scope, there were a few brief moments in history where Greece met or came close to meeting this definition.

    According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, the Byzantine Empire (The Eastern Portion of the Roman Empire) was ruled by Greek Emperors for a period of time.

    However, rather than having a long, drawn out discussion over a simple statement made by Wesobi, could you not have simply asked him to rephrase the description? I am by no means an authority on Greek history, and my statements may not be wholly accurate, but I am led to believe Greece was included in the list of Empires. I'd actually prefer to hear Rei's input as she is, well, Greek and very passionate about this sort of thing. Albeit, even if Greece has met the definition of 'empire,' I will concede it's not well-known so it probably is not included in the list of "most powerful" empires.

    Technically, even the United States met the criteria for 'empire' once upon a time...

    However, I am not going to spend a whole lot of time researching such matters so, without further ado,

    Can we please get back to normal discussion of the contest?
     
         

  • #408
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    Re: AotW: Contest Discussion

    Omg why Ancient Greece .. WHY ?
     
         

  • #409
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    Re: AotW: Contest Discussion

    @Kurapika
    It is a waste of time trying to talk this out with you.
    Whoever has eyes can go read this and the previous page and with a bit of brain activity, understand my point.

    @Sveti
    Byzantine Empire was created at 330AD so I don't think it fits in the definition of 'Ancient Greece' :/

    And okay, sure. Let's go back to the regular AOTW discussion. Not that there is much anyway :3
     
         

  • #410
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    Re: AotW: Contest Discussion

    How about an art theme?
     
         

  • #411
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    Re: AotW: Contest Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by -S- View Post
    How about an art theme?
    I'm in for this :3
     
         

  • #412
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    Re: AotW: Contest Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Sveti View Post
    I'd actually prefer to hear Rei's input as she is, well, Greek and very passionate about this sort of thing.
    When I started reading the start of this discussion, I thought 2 things:

    1. It's stupid
    2. I hope Rei enters the fray nonetheless

    Seriously, making a debate over a contest's theme description.
     
         

  • #413
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    Re: AotW: Contest Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by EtherealBoss View Post
    I 've been observing this discussion for a while, and I've finally decided to comment myself, because this is clearly getting nowhere.

    Regarding the notion of empire: An empire is a state structure that usually consists of a) the (city-)state in power (e.g. Rome) and b) the invaded lands that have financial and trade relations (or even deeper ones) with the state in power. Clearly there is either an individual or a small group of people that leads the state in power, it goes like this:
    Ceasar->Rome->Roman Empire

    Greece has never EVER been an empire in the way Rome was, or the way Assyria was. That is because the Greeks were organized since the beginning in city-states which had certain relations but differed greatly in terms of political and social beliefs, and that is why they did not consider themselves natural allies. The only time before Alexander that the Greeks ever cooperated massively was during the Persian attacks, and one could say that back then they cooperated mostly because they had common terrain interests, not because they considered themselves to be of the same nation, and as such natural allies.



    Which brings me to my next order of business. There are all kinds of mistakes in this comment of yours. First of all, not even half of the Greek city-states ever accepted the notion of democracy, and we must also take into account the fact that numerous conflicts took place between city-states because they did not agree on political matters, or even in the interior of city-states like Corfu, which suffered a horrible civil war that has been recorded by Thucydides.

    Oligarchy was just another form of government that was prefered in many Greek city-states, including Sparta. Oligarchy meant that only few of the male, free citizens of a city-state could participate in political decision-making. Democracy meant that all male, free citizens of a city-state could do so. Of course in both these cases, women, slaves, foreigners and younger men were excluded from the decision-making. However, that does not, by any means, imply that the Democracy of let's say Athens was not democratic. It's a tragic error to consider the Democracy of Athens an oligarchy just because it exclude these groups, because we simply CANNOT compare the beliefs of the present and of such a distant past. It's pointless and it gets us nowhere.

    Regarding the leagues, those had the characteristics of a hegemony, which shows a system of states, out of which one is more powerful than the others and is obliged to preserve the balance of the system. A hegemony, however, is NOT an empire. Though there was conflict between parties, it was more of a case of alliance (either wanted or necessitated), than a case of invasion and control of a city-state by another. If anything, an empire doesn't form from one day to another; decades are usually needed to adopt the standard structure of the empire, as it shows quite a number of complications in practice. No actual empire existed in Greece or was created by the Greeks before the time of Alexander, and if anything I am pretty sure that the Ancient Greek civilization we 're talking about here is of the era before the Peloponnesian War. As such, what Alexander did (or tried to) is completely irrelevant to this argument.
    Well, you do rise some fine points, and it's obvious that you're more knowledgeable in the matter than me.
    Even though I still don't see why Greece doesn't fit the definition of an empire, I'll put this to a rest. And I'll take this opportunity to look more into Greek history.

    Btw guys, this discussion really isn't about the contest, I am just really interested in topic as it has much to do with Libyan history. I just couldn't miss the chance to discuss the matter.
     
         

  • #414
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    Re: AotW: Contest Discussion

    Ok, I used the wrong word. Every one that is pointing out what I meant knew what I meant in the first place. Either enter it, or don't. We're not discussing the contest here, but discussing the definition of the word empire.

    I'll be closing this contest in approximately 2 hours and a half, maybe 3. IF you want to enter, hurry up up up.
     
         

  • #415
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    Re: AotW: Contest Discussion

    - Australia theme! You know you want too.
    - Music that inspires you.
    - Could do another random theme?
    - Theme: R (letter based theme)
    - Christmas based themed/etc...
    - Favorite T.V show. I would enjoy that one. xD
     
         

  • #416
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    Re: AotW: Contest Discussion

    I decided to take a more personal approach on a theme this week. I'll be making an art related week in the near future. And off course, on xmas week you'll have the xmas album.

    ^^
     
         

  • #417
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    Re: AotW: Contest Discussion

    Also again: We'll allow photobucket albums and screenshots of those if the narutobase uploader doesn't work for some reason. Keep this in mind. I also would like people who join to actually make an album, because it's depressing to see people saying they will ente, only to make an empty post without any album or such.
     
         

  • #418
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    Re: AotW: Contest Discussion

    Disappointing outcome for this weeks theme.
     
         

  • #419
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    Re: AotW: Contest Discussion

    well, for now me and wes will be halting this contest. We've tried to come up with deep serious themes, real themes, easy themes, abstract themes... nothing worked. So we either get someone else to work the contest or we simply end this one. We can't be having weeks with only 3 participants, one of which witout valid links to albums. So, for now, its halted. I'll see with wesobi what we can do.
     
         

  • #420
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    Re: AotW: Contest Discussion

    And I just wanted to get back to this comp
     
         

  • #421
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    Re: AotW: Contest Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Scorps View Post
    well, for now me and wes will be halting this contest. We've tried to come up with deep serious themes, real themes, easy themes, abstract themes... nothing worked. So we either get someone else to work the contest or we simply end this one. We can't be having weeks with only 3 participants, one of which witout valid links to albums. So, for now, its halted. I'll see with wesobi what we can do.
    Can I host this contest?
     
         

  • #422
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    Re: AotW: Contest Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Scorps View Post
    well, for now me and wes will be halting this contest. We've tried to come up with deep serious themes, real themes, easy themes, abstract themes... nothing worked. So we either get someone else to work the contest or we simply end this one. We can't be having weeks with only 3 participants, one of which witout valid links to albums. So, for now, its halted. I'll see with wesobi what we can do.
    I think the problem lies in the albums in vB4, and then there was the massive break when the medals were down whilst made this contest lose popularity.

    If I could just add one thing, I think the contest needs some advertising. ^_^

    Quote Originally Posted by Eishi View Post
    Can I host this contest?
    It's futile, you'll get the same results.. As said earlier, many different themes have been tried out. It's the only thing you can really alter in this contest.
     
         

  • #423
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    Re: AotW: Contest Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by -S- View Post
    It's futile, you'll get the same results.. As said earlier, many different themes have been tried out. It's the only thing you can really alter in this contest.
    Don't count the chickens before they hatch :D

    If only I could host this contest for 2 weeks...
     
         

  • #424
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    Re: AotW: Contest Discussion

    Well I had exams. Which explains I was not able to make the album.
    But what about the others? Why don't they participate? Eishi? S? Sublime? etc
     
         

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    Re: AotW: Contest Discussion

    It's a bit depressing, yes. o_o
     
         

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