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  1. #81
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Truemadara View Post
    To the first statement its still free will I can decide to let you shoot me at the end of the day its my choice whether the outcome is death or torture.

    I can decide to tell you go fu*k yourself and disarm you if I know how.

    I can run if I'm fast enough.

    Choices can be limited by the persons ability

    Just cuz you told me jump or you will shoot my mother doesn't mean I don't have a choice.

    My will would have let you shoot because I don't think you would have the balls to pull the trigger. Maybe that would be my downfall but its still my free will 2 choose
    yet you are forced to choose nonetheless, you have to choose and not choosing to do anything is still a choice affected by the situation you are in....making the choice not of free will
     
         

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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    But to go along with the theme of this thread that 'Free will is only an idea'.

    It appears so for some who believe that they are locked in the confines of societal norms. They continue to live the way they do because society forces them to, which is unintended. Such an example would be families in poverty, where both parents have to work extensive hours to provide for their family.

    The blame that free will is only an idea spawns from those who suffered feeling like they had no control over their life, a negative emotion attributed by the parents working extensive hours for their families who in the past may have hoped for a better life prior to their situation.

    So I guess the question that should be asked rather than 'is free will only an idea' is 'under what circumstances does free will become apparent and under what circumstances is it perceived absent'?
     
         

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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightbringer View Post
    I was using the movie as an example of what may happen in response to kobaks comment.....I never meant that was the purpose of the movie.

    but free will suggest we can make a decision solely on our own, yet we make decisions based on the outside factors that fall upon us which lead us into make certain decisions.

    ....like paying bills to avoid the consequence of debt and bankruptcy.....yet we do not want to pay the bills, but we do because we know that there is a negative outcome that may follow.

    we cannot make an original choice and we are limited to certain laws, whether it be man-made or universal....making the term "free" will not applicable to humans....but only "will"
    It sounds like you're making the point that no decision that is made by another is influenced by something of the past. If that were so then you would void your existence.
     
         

  4. #84
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    Quote Originally Posted by BrownTailedBeast View Post
    But to go along with the theme of this thread that 'Free will is only an idea'.

    It appears so for some who believe that they are locked in the confines of societal norms. They continue to live the way they do because society forces them to, which is unintended. Such an example would be families in poverty, where both parents have to work extensive hours to provide for their family.

    The blame that free will is only an idea spawns from those who suffered feeling like they had no control over their life, a negative emotion attributed by the parents working extensive hours for their families who in the past may have hoped for a better life prior to their situation.

    So I guess the question that should be asked rather than 'is free will only an idea' is 'under what circumstances does free will become apparent and under what circumstances is it perceived absent'?
    Under what circumstances? Well, I guess this whole life and world can be considered as a set of circumstances under which (free) will can be apparent, but we don't choose to be born,we don't choose to die, we don't choose our parents, the country we born in,etc.
     
         

  5. #85
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    Quote Originally Posted by BrownTailedBeast View Post
    But to go along with the theme of this thread that 'Free will is only an idea'.

    It appears so for some who believe that they are locked in the confines of societal norms. They continue to live the way they do because society forces them to, which is unintended. Such an example would be families in poverty, where both parents have to work extensive hours to provide for their family.

    The blame that free will is only an idea spawns from those who suffered feeling like they had no control over their life, a negative emotion attributed by the parents working extensive hours for their families who in the past may have hoped for a better life prior to their situation.

    So I guess the question that should be asked rather than 'is free will only an idea' is 'under what circumstances does free will become apparent and under what circumstances is it perceived absent'?
    well the fact is that humans are limited to their choices, regardless of what kind of society we live in and all our choices will be influenced by something other than ourselves.

    we choose to create and live in shelter because it is comfortable....the comfort of the shelter is what sells us the point of making the choice

    when we are attracted to someone or something(art for example or music), we can't choose to not be attracted to it in that same instant....we have to be exposed to the other factors for that to influence us in a different way

    we can will ourselves to move, but free will would indicate we can move beyond our limitations(like turning your head 360 degrees)

    we are always and will be limited, and that means we have no free choice but limited choice composed of other aspects to make that choice

    this is why "free" will is only an idea, not reality....just like "infinity" we have never experienced either because we are finite and limited beings

    hence my example with the rock not moving on it's own.....same way we cannot create our own force to make the original decision.

    by that definition, the only being capable of having free will is god
     
         
    Last edited by Lightbringer; 01-04-2013 at 09:12 AM.

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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    Quote Originally Posted by kobak View Post
    Under what circumstances? Well, I guess this whole life and world can be considered as a set of circumstances under which (free) will can be apparent, but we don't choose to be born,we don't choose to die, we don't choose our parents, the country we born in,etc.
    Under levels of control. Seems like the only being said on here that has free will is God, but what aspect makes free will valid? Would it be the amount of control a god would to make decision irrelevant of past circumstances?

    If humans possessed complete control over their own lives without the pressures of society, would free will exist?
     
         

  7. #87
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    Quote Originally Posted by BrownTailedBeast View Post
    Under levels of control. Seems like the only being said on here that has free will is God, but what aspect makes free will valid? Would it be the amount of control a god would to make decision irrelevant of past circumstances?

    If humans possessed complete control over their own lives without the pressures of society, would free will exist?
    free will, if you define it technically, is will without limitations.....our will, will always be limited

    if one is a prisoner, he is forcibly limited with the choices he has. He cannot will himself out of prison, which is what makes him a prisoner....otherwise he would be free

    We are caged in with only a limited number of choices, just like a prisoner but on a wider scale.....so we don't have free will nor will we ever
     
         

  8. #88
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    living life the right way is difficult....free will presents us easy ways...
     
         

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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    I can partially agree with you. But, when I pick up the hundred dollar bill, or decide not to kill anyone it's my own decision. Our heart beats involuntarily. If it wouldn't, you would not have anything.
     
         

  10. #90
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    Quote Originally Posted by drknght View Post
    I can partially agree with you. But, when I pick up the hundred dollar bill, or decide not to kill anyone it's my own decision. Our heart beats involuntarily. If it wouldn't, you would not have anything.
    but when you see the hundred dollar bill....the first thought to pop into your mind is to pick it up and not the opposite. If there was a hundred dollar bill lying on the ground with no else around.....then it's almost certain that everyone would choose to pick it up.

    The choice has been made for you. The hundred dollar bill that is laying there is what's forcing you to choose in the first place....and you only have 2 choices, to pick it up or leave it alone, thus you have no free will in not choosing anything.

    And you pick it up because the hundred dollar bill has a positive outcome to it, it is a reward, and humans are inclined to choose to their benefits due to their nature. So this is the outside factor which pulls you into picking up the hundred dollar bill, it influences you and your choice....making the choice not of free will

    free will means original choice without any other outside factors edging you to make it.
     
         

  11. #91
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    I love pseudo-philosophers..they're all just a bunch of hipsters that claim wisdom.

    You make your own decisions in life based on many factors, and in the end, you deal with the consequences they bring. The End.
     
         

  12. #92
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    Quote Originally Posted by sG Taka View Post
    I love pseudo-philosophers..they're all just a bunch of hipsters that claim wisdom.

    You make your own decisions in life based on many factors, and in the end, you deal with the consequences they bring. The End.
    I know you didn't read the thread at all because at the end of the thread I said I don't personally believe in what I said....this thread was solely for starting up an interesting conversation to debate. I never claimed anything.

    Talk about hypocrite.
     
         

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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightbringer View Post
    The choice has been made for you. The hundred dollar bill that is laying there is what's forcing you to choose in the first place....and you only have 2 choices, to pick it up or leave it alone, thus you have no free will in not choosing anything.
    What? No logic whatsoever. You decided to get up, get dress and walk outside..there are MANY factors that YOU chose voluntarily that led to the encounter with the 100 dollar bill. The bill (or the idea of) did not make you do anything.
     
         

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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightbringer View Post
    I know you didn't read the thread at all because at the end of the thread I said I don't personally believe in what I said....this thread was solely for starting up an interesting conversation to debate. I never claimed anything.

    Talk about hypocrite.
    I never said you did claim anything. I said the people who do (in this case, the people who claim your hypothetical assumption).
     
         

  15. #95
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    Quote Originally Posted by sG Taka View Post
    What? No logic whatsoever. You decided to get up, get dress and walk outside..there are MANY factors that YOU chose voluntarily that led to the encounter with the 100 dollar bill. The bill (or the idea of) did not make you do anything.
    yeah but the value of $100 bill is what lead you to pick it up in the first place. The influence is its value, and the outcome is positive, it's edging you to make the choice to pick it up. You are not in neutral decision making mode because you want to pick it up.
     
         

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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    I agree with you, although my from my point of view it's a bit more scientific. I belive that you can't really "decide" what you do. I think it's called determinism. It's hard to explain, but basically if you are put in a situation with certain conditions you will react in one way and one way only given those conditions. If you were put back in that situation again you would've done the samething. It's in our DNA, it's in the laws of physics. Lets say you drop something into a bucket of water, then the water would move away from the object based on the conditions of the situation. No matter how many times you would do the experiment, given the exact same conditions, the exact same result would occur. Just like this rule applies to water it applies to everything else in the universe. Now this is only true from the perspective of an atheist, but still it has to be there is just no other way.

    If you go one step further you will see that the water around the water affected by the object will move a certain way and only that way from the action that just happend, so there is a chain reaction. This means that if you belive that the universe was created by one motion, for example as in the big bang theory, everything is one large chain reaction and nothing happens randomly. In other words there really is something called fate, it's just a lot sader then what we think of it. If you read this then kudos to you.
     
         
    Last edited by Conscious; 01-05-2013 at 12:06 PM.

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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    I don't really think we can ever know if free will exists. Look at it this way.

    If "fate" or "destiny" exist for some reason, they are outside forces. If fate or destiny exist it means that our choices are predetermined. Most would say "well I can decide whether or not I will shoot a gun at a child". If fate or destiny exist then every single thought that you made during your decision-making process was predetermined.

    That is why I believe we cannot confirm free will. I do not personally believe in fate or destiny simply because they are outside forces, while free will would be the natural state or base. Then again it could be argued that fate or destiny are the natural state and are not outside forces. At that point I would say that neither can be confirmed and there is no "atheistic"-type viewpoint here, you have to choose(lolz) to believe either fate or free will.
     
         
    Last edited by dareak; 01-05-2013 at 12:09 AM.

  18. #98
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    I completely agree with you, free will is an interesting illusion, brought on by the unconscious and subconscious mind and time..
     
         

  19. #99
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Conscious View Post
    I agree with you, although my from my point of view it's a bit more scientific. I belive that you can't really "decide" what you do. I think it's called determinism. It's hard to explain, but basically if you are put in a situation with certain conditions you will react in one way and one way only given those conditions. If you were put back in that situation again you would've done the samething. It's in our DNA, it's in the laws of physics. Lets say you drop something into a bucket of water, then the water would move away from the object based on the conditions of the situation. No matter how many times you would do the experiment, given the exact same conditions, the exact same result would occur. Just like this rule applies to water it applies to everything else in the universe. Now this is only true from the perspective of an atheist, but still it has to be there is just no other way.

    If you go one step further you will see that the water around the water affected by the object will move a certain way and only that way from the action that just happend, so there is a chain reaction. This means that if you belive that the universe was created by one motion, for example as in the big bang theory, everything is one large chain reaction and nothing happens randomly. In other words there really is something called fate, it's just a lot sader then what we think of it. If you read this then kudos to you. :P
    I did and it's very interesting, but it also shows how free will(will without any shackles or limitations) doesn't exist.

    I found the part about the motion interesting, since I was going to use that same sort of example in this thread but take it a step further.

    If energy can't be created nor destroyed, then what created the first force to combine the energy into the big bang "star"?

    Not sure if this is scientifically correct. But the way I see it, something can't be created from nothing. So what created the first motion?
     
         

  20. #100
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    "I" as a sense of self concept has no free-will what-so-ever because it is built on paradigms and such determined during birth. Simply put, because you didn't make "Yourself" you cannot choose your character and your character influences your behaviour..
     
         

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