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  1. #121
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    To sum it up, we have free will but choose not use it to the fullest due to consequnces that society we live in puts on us.
     
         

  2. #122
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    Quote Originally Posted by drknght View Post
    What is the difference between a free person and a prisoner?
    The thing is about a free person and a prisoner.....a prisoner is put into a cell block and he has limited amount of choices, and many of this choices are influenced by the prison laws.

    He can't will himself out, otherwise he wouldn't be a prisoner, so now he is forced to make certain choices everyday because of the prison laws. So he has no choice but to choose.

    It is like saying if I take away your Skittles, and only let choose either the 1 red or 1 green one(yet there are many different other colors I hold) I am limiting your choice forcibly; while I(the free person) can choose whatever skittle I want and how many I want with no limit.

    We, just like prisoners, are limited with choice but on a much larger scale. We are limited by reality and all our decisions are because certain forces collided which put us in the position to choose, and when we choose, reality chose the number of "skittles" and the color we can choose from.

    if we see someone or something(like music) and we are attracted to it, we can't force ourselves to not be attracted to that object or person; only until the other external factors(like a persons personality) is revealed are we forced to alter our judgement in some way. We cannot choose to not be influenced by these factors.

    So my point is that "free-will" is an incorrect term to use....there is nothing "free" about our choice. But instead the correct term would be just "will" because that is the human force which inevitably makes the choice we are given.

    Free will would mean we are unshackled with choice, and the choice is pure and original; there are no driving factors that decided how many choices we have, what kind of choices, or the situation.
     
         

  3. #123
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightbringer View Post
    The thing is about a free person and a prisoner.....a prisoner is put into a cell block and he has limited amount of choices, and many of this choices are influenced by the prison laws.

    He can't will himself out, otherwise he wouldn't be a prisoner, so now he is forced to make certain choices everyday because of the prison laws. So he has no choice but to choose.

    It is like saying if I take away your Skittles, and only let choose either the 1 red or 1 green one(yet there are many different other colors I hold) I am limiting your choice forcibly; while I(the free person) can choose whatever skittle I want and how many I want with no limit.

    We, just like prisoners, are limited with choice but on a much larger scale. We are limited by reality and all our decisions are because certain forces collided which put us in the position to choose, and when we choose, reality chose the number of "skittles" and the color we can choose from.

    if we see someone or something(like music) and we are attracted to it, we can't force ourselves to not be attracted to that object or person; only until the other external factors(like a persons personality) is revealed are we forced to alter our judgement in some way. We cannot choose to not be influenced by these factors.

    So my point is that "free-will" is an incorrect term to use....there is nothing "free" about our choice. But instead the correct term would be just "will" because that is the human force which inevitably makes the choice we are given.

    Free will would mean we are unshackled with choice, and the choice is pure and original; there are no driving factors that decided how many choices we have, what kind of choices, or the situation.
    My point was that the prisoner gets food for free and a free person has to work for it.
     
         

  4. #124
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    Quote Originally Posted by drknght View Post
    My point was that the prisoner gets food for free and a free person has to work for it.
    yeah but the prisoner can't choose his food or when he gets it
     
         

  5. #125
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    A rock may not move on its own, mainly because its an inanimate object, so how could you ever compare having free will to a rock just sitting there. So yes, your right, a rock doesn't have the free will to move, but the person walking by it has the the free will to pick it up, and move it, or keep it, come home, read this thread, and smash it against there computer, because of how annoying the thread is. Dude, you want to philosifize, join the philosophy team that meets every other Wednesday, at 4:00pm, at school.

     
         
    Last edited by a banned cartoon; 01-05-2013 at 07:39 AM.

  6. #126
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    Quote Originally Posted by a banned cartoon View Post
    A rock may not move on its own, mainly because its an inanimate object, so how could you ever compare having free will to a rock just sitting there. So yes, your right, a rock doesn't have the free will to move, but the person walking by it has the the free will to pick it up, and move it, or keep it, come home, read this thread, and smash it against there computer, because of how annoying the thread is. Dude, you want to philosifize, join the philosophy team that meets every other Wednesday, at 4:00pm, at school.
    wow dude cool your tits bro. I even said on my thread that I don't actually follow what I said here, this was only to start up an interesting conversation....and I'm obviously going to defend my point because that's what a debate is.

    You didn't choose to be angry, reading this thread is what forced you to be.

    It says under general discussion, Discuss here the latest headlines and debate on serious matters

    if you have a problem with that, then take it up with the mods
     
         

  7. #127
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightbringer View Post
    wow dude cool your tits bro. I even said on my thread that I don't actually follow what I said here, this was only to start up an interesting conversation....and I'm obviously going to defend my point because that's what a debate is.

    You didn't choose to be angry, reading this thread is what forced you to be.
    Never said I'm angry. Also it's not a debate when the other sides just flat out wrong!
     
         

  8. #128
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    Quote Originally Posted by a banned cartoon View Post
    Never said I'm angry. Also it's not a debate when the other sides just flat out wrong!
    hmmm well if smashing a rock against your computer from reading this thread isn't anger, then I don't know what is.

    oh and you're telling you know the mysteries of the universe now? I'm listening god
     
         
    Last edited by Lightbringer; 01-05-2013 at 08:00 AM.

  9. #129
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightbringer View Post
    wow dude cool your tits bro. I even said on my thread that I don't actually follow what I said here, this was only to start up an interesting conversation....and I'm obviously going to defend my point because that's what a debate is.

    You didn't choose to be angry, reading this thread is what forced you to be.

    It says under general discussion, Discuss here the latest headlines and debate on serious matters

    if you have a problem with that, then take it up with the mods
    However, their rules are kind of... In the eyes of the beholder. Take this thread for example. Free will is not considered a serious matter by a lot of people, and neither is it a "latest headline", so this thread will probably become closed in a little bit. I however think free will is a major issue, since no one has free will.
     
         

  10. #130
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    Wow interesting read.. If a person had no influences whatsoever, nothing at all like not being affected by feelings and morality - as you considered these as influences which determine "free will, then what would drive a person to make a decision at all? That is even a villain is driven by something, and ergo in some degree God, if you believe in a being, is driven by something to make said decision.
     
         

  11. #131
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSyren View Post
    However, their rules are kind of... In the eyes of the beholder. Take this thread for example. Free will is not considered a serious matter by a lot of people, and neither is it a "latest headline", so this thread will probably become closed in a little bit. I however think free will is a major issue, since no one has free will.
    There is free will. You had the free will whether or not to post, didn't you? The thread maker had the free will whether or not to write this thread, didn't he? How can you honestly say "there's no free will".
     
         

  12. #132
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightbringer View Post
    hmmm well if smashing a rock against your computer from reading this thread isn't anger, then I don't know what is.

    oh and you're telling you know the mysteries of the universe now? I'm listening god
    Actually I didn't really smash a rock against my computer. Ya know why? Because I've got the free will not too. I also had the free will to fuk with you, and say I smahed a rock against it, though.
     
         

  13. #133
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightbringer View Post
    I did and it's very interesting, but it also shows how free will(will without any shackles or limitations) doesn't exist.

    I found the part about the motion interesting, since I was going to use that same sort of example in this thread but take it a step further.

    If energy can't be created nor destroyed, then what created the first force to combine the energy into the big bang "star"?

    Not sure if this is scientifically correct. But the way I see it, something can't be created from nothing. So what created the first motion?
    If you could answer that question with a logical or plausible explanation you would have secured yourself a place in the history books. No matter what kind of perspective you have on existence, religious or not, you have to accept that there is no beginning or end. The big bang might have been the start of our universe but there was a "space" before that and if the universe ever stopped to exist there would still be a "space". Trying to understand this is impossible, so there are certain things we just have to accept, just like a christian accepts that there is an unexplainable almighty "person" titled God.
     
         

  14. #134
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightbringer View Post
    This is just a random topic/debate I felt like making arguing against free will

    When you hear the term free will, one think that means we are able to make our own choices...but when it boils down to it, free will is just an idea.

    We make our choices based on the world around us, and how it affects us.

    We live by codes; sure we can choose to live a certain lifestyle/code, but a lifestyle is not a choice, it's necessity.

    We are sometimes bribed to choose(meaning there is an ultimate reward or punishment for that choice) which influences us to choose.....such as paying bills or facing debt

    Most people choose to pay the bills, why? We don't like doing it, but we have to or we face a negative consequence. Is a choice like that made freely when the decision factor is more or less a bribe?

    It's comparable to finding a hundred dollars on floor....virtually everyone will make the choice to pick it up. So is that really a choice of free will? It's almost certain that everyone would pick it up.

    We can choose to not breathe or not eat, but then we will die. So we are essentially forced to choose certain things if we want to continue living.

    Living is what gives the ability to choose, so if we don't choose correctly, we won't live.

    we are also forced to live by certain universal laws that we can't "will" ourselves out....like living with gravity or dying.

    So what choices do we have that define "free will"?

    well people usually compare free will with choice that have more or less to do with morality

    not killing, not stealing, not sinning in general, self sacrifice, etc

    yet most make these decisions based on the consequences that may occur or from fear of making the choice.

    So does the influence of other factors and driving forces such as one's feeling and impulses define human's to having free will? I personally don't think so.

    a rock doesn't move on its own unless a force is applied to it.....hence the rock is not of it's own free will to move.

    this is the same way with how certain forces are applied that force humans to choose the way they do.

    To be truly free means having absolutely no outside factors applied to do any sort of decision of one's own choosing....hence the only way, and hypothetically, the only one to truly be free and have free will is god.

    Free will is an idea, we know what it is and we can comprehend it but we will never experience. This is the same thing with the idea with infinity....we have the idea, but not the true experience.



    --for the record, this is all hypothetical and not something I actually, personally believe in.
    This is an interesting topic. Funny, cos when I first read the title I thought it was going to be a Islamic anti- freewill/freespech thread. Great thoughts
     
         

  15. #135
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Okami the butcher View Post
    go home Confucius you're drunk
    this^
     
         

  16. #136
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightbringer View Post
    This is just a random topic/debate I felt like making arguing against free will

    When you hear the term free will, one think that means we are able to make our own choices...but when it boils down to it, free will is just an idea.

    We make our choices based on the world around us, and how it affects us.

    We live by codes; sure we can choose to live a certain lifestyle/code, but a lifestyle is not a choice, it's necessity.

    We are sometimes bribed to choose(meaning there is an ultimate reward or punishment for that choice) which influences us to choose.....such as paying bills or facing debt

    Most people choose to pay the bills, why? We don't like doing it, but we have to or we face a negative consequence. Is a choice like that made freely when the decision factor is more or less a bribe?

    It's comparable to finding a hundred dollars on floor....virtually everyone will make the choice to pick it up. So is that really a choice of free will? It's almost certain that everyone would pick it up.

    We can choose to not breathe or not eat, but then we will die. So we are essentially forced to choose certain things if we want to continue living.

    Living is what gives the ability to choose, so if we don't choose correctly, we won't live.

    we are also forced to live by certain universal laws that we can't "will" ourselves out....like living with gravity or dying.

    So what choices do we have that define "free will"?

    well people usually compare free will with choice that have more or less to do with morality

    not killing, not stealing, not sinning in general, self sacrifice, etc

    yet most make these decisions based on the consequences that may occur or from fear of making the choice.

    So does the influence of other factors and driving forces such as one's feeling and impulses define human's to having free will? I personally don't think so.

    a rock doesn't move on its own unless a force is applied to it.....hence the rock is not of it's own free will to move.

    this is the same way with how certain forces are applied that force humans to choose the way they do.

    To be truly free means having absolutely no outside factors applied to do any sort of decision of one's own choosing....hence the only way, and hypothetically, the only one to truly be free and have free will is god.

    Free will is an idea, we know what it is and we can comprehend it but we will never experience. This is the same thing with the idea with infinity....we have the idea, but not the true experience.



    --for the record, this is all hypothetical and not something I actually, personally believe in.
    Yeah I sort of agree. We think just like computers in a way. Everything we want to do is first passed through a few conditions (should I really do this? is this socially acceptable? what will I earn from this? should I waste my time on it?) then actually executed.

    Our free will is simply based on what we experienced prior to making a choice, that's how our personality builds. Movies you watched, role model, parents, friends, stuff like that molds you in what you are in the present. If you were born in an empty room devoid of sound, smell, taste or other senses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensory_deprivation) you'll probably grow up to be just a simple animal who acts on instincts. I think this quotes sums this up pretty good: "If you wake up at a different time, in a different place, could you wake up as a different person?".
     
         

  17. #137
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightbringer View Post
    But is it free will if we choose based around factors that affect our choice?

    Like the example I gave.....a rock doesn't move on it's own unless an outside force moves it.

    These outside forces define our decisions, making the decision not necessarily our own.....so how could that be free will?
    We are not a rock lol. We can move we are the outside force. We have the abilities to choose what we do.
    Example you Choose to make this thread, an outside force was not beating you to death to make it.
    You can also choose to spam the fap out of narutobase like many people do, <----- its free will.
     
         

  18. #138
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightbringer View Post
    but we can't do whatever we want, because if we could do anything, then we would be god.
    i feel like you're just ****ing with people.... do you really think he meant ANYTHING, EVEN FLY AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT AND DIE ONLY TO RESPAWN 3 DAYS LATER?..... i'm high so it took me this long to turn off caps lock which was only intended for "anything"
     
         

  19. #139
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    the only compulsory thing is death, everything else is optional.

    it's true that there are a lot of things which affect our choices, however it's also true that despite being steered towards particular choices by society, religion, habits etc, we retain the ability to choose however we want. there is pressure to conform sure, but we are not yet completely sheep
     
         

  20. #140
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    in theory, we have free will, but our society gave us limitations in our choices and that results in us losing our free will. Because something that is limited is by definition not free.
     
         

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