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  1. #151
    Sage of Six Paths LordYinYang's Avatar
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightbringer View Post
    This is just a random topic/debate I felt like making arguing against free will

    When you hear the term free will, one think that means we are able to make our own choices...but when it boils down to it, free will is just an idea.

    We make our choices based on the world around us, and how it affects us.

    We live by codes; sure we can choose to live a certain lifestyle/code, but a lifestyle is not a choice, it's necessity.

    We are sometimes bribed to choose(meaning there is an ultimate reward or punishment for that choice) which influences us to choose.....such as paying bills or facing debt

    Most people choose to pay the bills, why? We don't like doing it, but we have to or we face a negative consequence. Is a choice like that made freely when the decision factor is more or less a bribe?

    It's comparable to finding a hundred dollars on floor....virtually everyone will make the choice to pick it up. So is that really a choice of free will? It's almost certain that everyone would pick it up.

    We can choose to not breathe or not eat, but then we will die. So we are essentially forced to choose certain things if we want to continue living.

    Living is what gives the ability to choose, so if we don't choose correctly, we won't live.

    we are also forced to live by certain universal laws that we can't "will" ourselves out....like living with gravity or dying.

    So what choices do we have that define "free will"?

    well people usually compare free will with choice that have more or less to do with morality

    not killing, not stealing, not sinning in general, self sacrifice, etc

    yet most make these decisions based on the consequences that may occur or from fear of making the choice.

    So does the influence of other factors and driving forces such as one's feeling and impulses define human's to having free will? I personally don't think so.

    a rock doesn't move on its own unless a force is applied to it.....hence the rock is not of it's own free will to move.

    this is the same way with how certain forces are applied that force humans to choose the way they do.

    To be truly free means having absolutely no outside factors applied to do any sort of decision of one's own choosing....hence the only way, and hypothetically, the only one to truly be free and have free will is god.

    Free will is an idea, we know what it is and we can comprehend it but we will never experience. This is the same thing with the idea with infinity....we have the idea, but not the true experience.



    --for the record, this is all hypothetical and not something I actually, personally believe in.
    This is an interesting topic. Funny, cos when I first read the title I thought it was going to be a Islamic anti- freewill/freespech thread. Great thoughts
     
         

  2. #152
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Okami the butcher View Post
    go home Confucius you're drunk
    this^
     
         

  3. #153
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightbringer View Post
    This is just a random topic/debate I felt like making arguing against free will

    When you hear the term free will, one think that means we are able to make our own choices...but when it boils down to it, free will is just an idea.

    We make our choices based on the world around us, and how it affects us.

    We live by codes; sure we can choose to live a certain lifestyle/code, but a lifestyle is not a choice, it's necessity.

    We are sometimes bribed to choose(meaning there is an ultimate reward or punishment for that choice) which influences us to choose.....such as paying bills or facing debt

    Most people choose to pay the bills, why? We don't like doing it, but we have to or we face a negative consequence. Is a choice like that made freely when the decision factor is more or less a bribe?

    It's comparable to finding a hundred dollars on floor....virtually everyone will make the choice to pick it up. So is that really a choice of free will? It's almost certain that everyone would pick it up.

    We can choose to not breathe or not eat, but then we will die. So we are essentially forced to choose certain things if we want to continue living.

    Living is what gives the ability to choose, so if we don't choose correctly, we won't live.

    we are also forced to live by certain universal laws that we can't "will" ourselves out....like living with gravity or dying.

    So what choices do we have that define "free will"?

    well people usually compare free will with choice that have more or less to do with morality

    not killing, not stealing, not sinning in general, self sacrifice, etc

    yet most make these decisions based on the consequences that may occur or from fear of making the choice.

    So does the influence of other factors and driving forces such as one's feeling and impulses define human's to having free will? I personally don't think so.

    a rock doesn't move on its own unless a force is applied to it.....hence the rock is not of it's own free will to move.

    this is the same way with how certain forces are applied that force humans to choose the way they do.

    To be truly free means having absolutely no outside factors applied to do any sort of decision of one's own choosing....hence the only way, and hypothetically, the only one to truly be free and have free will is god.

    Free will is an idea, we know what it is and we can comprehend it but we will never experience. This is the same thing with the idea with infinity....we have the idea, but not the true experience.



    --for the record, this is all hypothetical and not something I actually, personally believe in.
    Yeah I sort of agree. We think just like computers in a way. Everything we want to do is first passed through a few conditions (should I really do this? is this socially acceptable? what will I earn from this? should I waste my time on it?) then actually executed.

    Our free will is simply based on what we experienced prior to making a choice, that's how our personality builds. Movies you watched, role model, parents, friends, stuff like that molds you in what you are in the present. If you were born in an empty room devoid of sound, smell, taste or other senses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensory_deprivation) you'll probably grow up to be just a simple animal who acts on instincts. I think this quotes sums this up pretty good: "If you wake up at a different time, in a different place, could you wake up as a different person?".
     
         

  4. #154
    S-Rank NamikazeUzumakiNaruto's Avatar
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightbringer View Post
    But is it free will if we choose based around factors that affect our choice?

    Like the example I gave.....a rock doesn't move on it's own unless an outside force moves it.

    These outside forces define our decisions, making the decision not necessarily our own.....so how could that be free will?
    We are not a rock lol. We can move we are the outside force. We have the abilities to choose what we do.
    Example you Choose to make this thread, an outside force was not beating you to death to make it.
    You can also choose to spam the fap out of narutobase like many people do, <----- its free will.
     
         

  5. #155
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightbringer View Post
    but we can't do whatever we want, because if we could do anything, then we would be god.
    i feel like you're just ****ing with people.... do you really think he meant ANYTHING, EVEN FLY AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT AND DIE ONLY TO RESPAWN 3 DAYS LATER?..... i'm high so it took me this long to turn off caps lock which was only intended for "anything" :scorps:
     
         

  6. #156
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    the only compulsory thing is death, everything else is optional.

    it's true that there are a lot of things which affect our choices, however it's also true that despite being steered towards particular choices by society, religion, habits etc, we retain the ability to choose however we want. there is pressure to conform sure, but we are not yet completely sheep
     
         

  7. #157
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    in theory, we have free will, but our society gave us limitations in our choices and that results in us losing our free will. Because something that is limited is by definition not free.
     
         

  8. #158
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    uhhh yes we...we can choose vanilla over chocolate icecream base on a wimp..or we can choose green...we can be either forgiving of our enemies or just spraypaint their new ride...yes we choose to be a phallus or wear halos whenever we want....
     
         

  9. #159
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightbringer View Post
    This is just a random topic/debate I felt like making arguing against free will

    When you hear the term free will, one think that means we are able to make our own choices...but when it boils down to it, free will is just an idea.

    We make our choices based on the world around us, and how it affects us.

    We live by codes; sure we can choose to live a certain lifestyle/code, but a lifestyle is not a choice, it's necessity.

    We are sometimes bribed to choose(meaning there is an ultimate reward or punishment for that choice) which influences us to choose.....such as paying bills or facing debt

    Most people choose to pay the bills, why? We don't like doing it, but we have to or we face a negative consequence. Is a choice like that made freely when the decision factor is more or less a bribe?

    It's comparable to finding a hundred dollars on floor....virtually everyone will make the choice to pick it up. So is that really a choice of free will? It's almost certain that everyone would pick it up.

    We can choose to not breathe or not eat, but then we will die. So we are essentially forced to choose certain things if we want to continue living.

    Living is what gives the ability to choose, so if we don't choose correctly, we won't live.

    we are also forced to live by certain universal laws that we can't "will" ourselves out....like living with gravity or dying.

    So what choices do we have that define "free will"?

    well people usually compare free will with choice that have more or less to do with morality

    not killing, not stealing, not sinning in general, self sacrifice, etc

    yet most make these decisions based on the consequences that may occur or from fear of making the choice.

    So does the influence of other factors and driving forces such as one's feeling and impulses define human's to having free will? I personally don't think so.

    a rock doesn't move on its own unless a force is applied to it.....hence the rock is not of it's own free will to move.

    this is the same way with how certain forces are applied that force humans to choose the way they do.

    To be truly free means having absolutely no outside factors applied to do any sort of decision of one's own choosing....hence the only way, and hypothetically, the only one to truly be free and have free will is god.

    Free will is an idea, we know what it is and we can comprehend it but we will never experience. This is the same thing with the idea with infinity....we have the idea, but not the true experience.



    --for the record, this is all hypothetical and not something I actually, personally believe in.
    I get what he's saying n I agree. To have actually free will is to make your own decision without an outside factor affecting that choice. Just like the example about why a person would be hesitant to go commit murder out of the fear of going to jail. If u have true free will the factor of going to jail should not have an effect of whether or not the choice u make.
     
         

  10. #160
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    I get what he's saying n I agree. To have actually free will is to make your own decision without an outside factor affecting that choice. Just like the example about why a person would be hesitant to go commit murder out of the fear of going to jail. If u have true free will the factor of going to jail should not have an effect of whether or not the choice u make.
    No that isn't. Break it down:

    free - without restraints
    will - can be defined in multiple ways but here let's simplify it to choices.
    free will - the ability to make choices without restraints

    Restraints and subsequent consequences are different, which is the aura of confusion. If you are chained to a wall, you can't punch someone not because of the consequences, but because of the restriction, and thus your "free will" is impaired. However, without said obstacle, you have the ability to punch someone regardless of the consequences, ala your "free will". As humans, you have the ability to make any decision you want and nothing prevents you from doing so. What phenomenon occurs thereafter is a separate entity from free will altogether as the aforementioned phenomenon already occurred.

    Throwing around fancy vocabulary doesn't make a simple, unprovocative thread/concept more potent.
     
         

  11. #161
    Member Mugen Tsukyomi's Avatar
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    Yeah OK, you chose to make this thread right? What influenced you to do this? .
     
         

  12. #162
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    free will is the ability to make choices within our realm of control regardless of the consequences we still have the final say in what we do even though there are many outside factors we still choose for example criminals know that committing crimes will land them in prison and that may compel them not to but they still choose to commit those crimes

    p.s. i'm not really good at conveying what I think into writing so I hope that made sense
     
         

  13. #163
    mr sage
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef Boy RD View Post
    No that isn't. Break it down:

    free - without restraints
    will - can be defined in multiple ways but here let's simplify it to choices.
    free will - the ability to make choices without restraints

    Restraints and subsequent consequences are different, which is the aura of confusion. If you are chained to a wall, you can't punch someone not because of the consequences, but because of the restriction, and thus your "free will" is impaired. However, without said obstacle, you have the ability to punch someone regardless of the consequences, ala your "free will". As humans, you have the ability to make any decision you want and nothing prevents you from doing so. What phenomenon occurs thereafter is a separate entity from free will altogether as the aforementioned phenomenon already occurred.

    Throwing around fancy vocabulary doesn't make a simple, unprovocative thread/concept more potent.
    Free also can mean without cost or payment.
    Will like u said is a choice or choices.
    Remember for every action their is a reaction. So what choice does people make on a daily basis without that doesn't come with some kind of cost.
     
         

  14. #164
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    Good points Lightbringer. Free will like most concepts are relative and to some extent, subjective. At mankind's current state of social/spiritual evolution, free will without certain limiting factors would result in complete chaos and destruction.
     
         

  15. #165
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    The only way to truely have free will in this world is to be ignorant of this world.
     
         

  16. #166
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    naw i have free will, me posting this message is proof of that, i wasnt forced in to doing it.
     
         

  17. #167
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    for some its power or something :D
     
         

  18. #168
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    I agree. Free will is only an idea.. for many of the reasons already stated. You cant have free will if you dont control/predict ever decision u will ever have to m
     
         

  19. #169
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonIgnition View Post
    this^
    lol believe it or not people are still giving me rep for it
     
         

  20. #170
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    argue about it all you want to but the fact is we have free will period point blank, nothing anyone sais will change that because even if we were slaves we still have free will just less of it. A slave can choose to remain a slave out of fear or a slave can CHOOSE to escape his captivity even risking his life to do so, or he can kill his owners. It's a simple fact of the universe that every action has an equal or greater reaction, it wouldn't really be a choice if there was no kind of consequence regardless of if it is a good or bad one so making the argument that we don't have free will because we make choices based on reactions of those choices is more than a little idiotic. Everyone posting on this thread had the free will to do so just like they had the free will to simply ignore so many other threads.

    WE HAVE FREE WILL
     
         

  21. #171
    Member Walking Zodiac's Avatar
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    Re: Free will is only an idea

    See that's the thing free will has so many different angles to observe it from. If you don't know yourself Lightbringer that society has been conditioned to see freedom for the effects of freedom and not freedom itself, then you would know why the world is such this way. "Free will is the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion." There again free will is not a finite idea yet the mind knows it cannot ever be free because freedom is something that is realized, not attained, nor bestowed. For me free will is knowing the conditions of the world, experiencing purity, your passions, and even depression; yet remaining austere and unmoved even in the face of all such conditions and restraints. That means also seeing action in inaction and inaction in action. As long as freedom is perceived completely as mundane, to get and do everything one wants without error, it will never be realized.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lightbringer View Post
    This is just a random topic/debate I felt like making arguing against free will

    When you hear the term free will, one think that means we are able to make our own choices...but when it boils down to it, free will is just an idea.

    We make our choices based on the world around us, and how it affects us.

    We live by codes; sure we can choose to live a certain lifestyle/code, but a lifestyle is not a choice, it's necessity.

    We are sometimes bribed to choose(meaning there is an ultimate reward or punishment for that choice) which influences us to choose.....such as paying bills or facing debt

    Most people choose to pay the bills, why? We don't like doing it, but we have to or we face a negative consequence. Is a choice like that made freely when the decision factor is more or less a bribe?

    It's comparable to finding a hundred dollars on floor....virtually everyone will make the choice to pick it up. So is that really a choice of free will? It's almost certain that everyone would pick it up.

    We can choose to not breathe or not eat, but then we will die. So we are essentially forced to choose certain things if we want to continue living.

    Living is what gives the ability to choose, so if we don't choose correctly, we won't live.

    we are also forced to live by certain universal laws that we can't "will" ourselves out....like living with gravity or dying.

    So what choices do we have that define "free will"?

    well people usually compare free will with choice that have more or less to do with morality

    not killing, not stealing, not sinning in general, self sacrifice, etc

    yet most make these decisions based on the consequences that may occur or from fear of making the choice.

    So does the influence of other factors and driving forces such as one's feeling and impulses define human's to having free will? I personally don't think so.

    a rock doesn't move on its own unless a force is applied to it.....hence the rock is not of it's own free will to move.

    this is the same way with how certain forces are applied that force humans to choose the way they do.

    To be truly free means having absolutely no outside factors applied to do any sort of decision of one's own choosing....hence the only way, and hypothetically, the only one to truly be free and have free will is god.

    Free will is an idea, we know what it is and we can comprehend it but we will never experience. This is the same thing with the idea with infinity....we have the idea, but not the true experience.



    --for the record, this is all hypothetical and not something I actually, personally believe in.
     
         
    Last edited by Walking Zodiac; 01-05-2013 at 11:16 PM.

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