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  1. #26
    Senior Member EliteKakashi's Avatar
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    Re: Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable

    Quote Originally Posted by ItachiStyle View Post
    I love how none of the replies criticising me read my post, or are responding to issues in it.
    Your "issues" in the post aren't even worth responding to considering all you tried to do was talk down about one character and do nothing but prop the other one up...but I'll entertain it, I guess. Preface it by saying I don't give a shit who the "strongest hokage or strongest kage ever" is, so that's not factoring in to my post, simply responding to the ridiculous claims you made.

    Quote Originally Posted by ItachiStyle View Post
    I have noticed an alarming number of errors on this board, and I'm going to start trying to eliminate them so that people stop citing them as evidence for their theories.

    The second one is the constant claim that the 3rd Hokage was "the god of shinobi", "the most powerful Hokage", the most powerful Kage of his time", etc, etc. This claim has virtually no evidence for it, and the evidence that Hirzen was the strongest Hokage is very bad (especially compared to Hashirama.

    Hashirama is clearly stronger than Hirzen ever was
    A sensible and consistent application of the evidence tells us Hashirama was clearly stronger than Hirzen. Now of course, anything could be wrong. For all we know there was a hidden leaf black ops ninja who we were never told about, who kept his true power hidden, and was actually stronger than the Sage of the 6 paths... but that's not how logic works. You don't imagine something that could be possible, you go off the evidence. Let's look at the evidence.
    Hiruzen being called "god of shinobi" is not refutable. It's a nickname, not someone trying to claim him being superior to everyone in strength. What I'm 99% sure is meant(and what anyone with any common sense would realize) when they call him the "god of shinobi" is they're not trying to compare his power to the Sage. Rather, they're talking about his ability to master all 3 ninja arts. God can be defined as " a man who has qualities regarded as making him superior to other men". No one else has been able to do what Hiruzen did in regards to mastering those 3 arts. Therefor, he's looked at as a "God" for having "qualities that make him superior to other men". He's not being looked at as God in the sense of "almighty being" or whatever else. He had no mythical powers or anything of the sort, so that much should have been obvious. He was, in the sense of ninja, a "normal" man.

    Evidence for Hirzen
    - Some hyperbolic remarks in the manga, these being; a) that he was "said to be" the strongest ho/kage, and b) the claim he "was said to" "know all jutsu in the leaf". These 2 bits of evidence are extremely poor. The first remark is hyperbolic, and in the manga we've seen no end of remarks like this that were subsequently proven to be hyperbole. Remember how we were told Haku's jutsu had "never been stopped", or how "there's no stopping" Oro's soul transfer jutsu? You know, right before both were stopped. There are dozens of examples of this sort of hyperbole in the comic, which is why people don't go off hyperbole, they go off feats. Comic books have this problem all the time, which is why the 10 eyed man isn't actually the "most dangerous man in the world" as Batman comics hyperbolically state. Also consider the source here. This isn't a comment we're being given by the narrator, or by someone with credibility. These 2 remarks are from Iruka, some no name ninja's, and Oro is mocking that he's able to beat "you who were said to know all jutsu in the leaf". You act like the Sage of the 6 paths declared it to be so, and carved it on a mountain of truths.

    As for "knowing all jutsu", he clearly doesn't know how to perform them, and if he does he was really dumb not to use them in a fight to the death with Oro. Maybe he knows of them, but it's far too much of a stretch to grant him every jutsu in the leaf with no evidence off such a flimsy remark as "he was said to" know them all (the Manga is full of these sorts of patently false remarks, just like Haku’s jutsu being unstoppable). We’re even explicitly told later that affinity with all 5 elements is impossible without the rinnegan. So at best, this reputation remark is a reference to generic jutsu… and as someone else said, if you take away bloodline abilities and elemental jutsu, does that even leave much in the way of jutsu that matter? Not really.
    Once again, the strongest kage statements are opinions, and not something I necessarily care about, however, they're not hyperbole. Kabuto's opinion is he was the strongest of the kage in his generation. Iruka's opinion is that he was the strongest Hokage to ever live. But that's all they are, opinions. Kabuto's statement may have some merit given the fact that he spied on countries and probably had decent knowledge of each kage, but it still boils down to opinion.

    In regards to knowing all of the jutsu, here is a great post to read: http://narutobase.net/forums/showthread.php?t=301094

    As shown in that thread(which I do suggest reading, but I'll just quote this one thing), this is where Hiruzen spent a lot of his time:



    Shelves stocked full of scrolls. He never stopped studying, even in his retirement. He reigned as Hokage for 30+ years. It's not some outlandish statement to believe he trained himself and spent the time studying to learn these techniques. He lived an usually long time for a kage, and given his dedication to it, it's believable.

    Why didn't he use a lot of them vs Orochimaru? Well that should have been obvious in your research.

    1. He was a 69 year old man. His chakra reserves were bad and he had to fight 3 kage-level opponents. He couldn't go around spamming techniques, he had to be careful with his reserves.

    2. On top of what I just said, Hiruzen wasn't even giving it 100% in the fight. I know you're probably thinking "that's bullshit", but Enma himself says as much:



    There's no reason to believe Hiruzen wasn't capable of such(learning the techniques, that is). He was an incredibly talented shinobi with all the dedication in the world.

    - Hirzen scored high in the databooks
    There is no reason for us to treat the databooks seriously. They’re not written by the author, and are full of obviously ridiculous material. Ameratsu is not “as hot as the sun”, and Naruto isn’t dragonball Z, where power levels mean something. For heaven’s sake, the databook gives Oro the same Genjutsu score as Itachi (a 5), which is patently ridiculous. Nobody should be invoking the databook as evidence of anything, no more than non-cannon star wars material, or a bunch of fanfic really. The scores in the databook do not represent characters actual abilities (Itachi for instance owns Oro every which way on Genjutsu, yet has an equal score… ridiculous).
    #1 - The databooks are written by Kishimoto. - http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11085135-naruto And they are official.

    #2 - Power levels don't actually mean much of anything in DBZ either. But I won't go in to detail on that, this isn't DBZ discussion.

    #3 - The databooks aren't meant to be a "compare this character to that character" type of book. It's meant to show where each ninja excels/excelled/how good they are with it. The manga statements back up that Hiruzen was someone with a mastery of the ninja arts and someone with extremely high intelligence. There's no reason to believe his scores aren't correct.

    - Hirzen “beat” Oro and the 2 edo Hokages.
    Oro says very clearly that the 2 hokages are toying with him, and that’s evident from reading the manga fight (remember, the anime doesn’t count), where the hokage spend most of the fight standing around and letting Oro talk, and when Oro prompts them they do a few jutsu, but basically they just stand there. There’s very little reason to believe these guys are going all out, and given that a) they’re fighting in a confined area that massively disadvantages them, and b) what we see off Hashirama’s power later, it’s pretty clear we can’t take the fight at face value.

    I won’t use the invented logic of “Oro hadn’t perfected Edo Tensei”, we have no indication that means they weren’t at full strength, but they clearly aren’t being made to go all out, because Oro thought there was no way he could lose, partly because he didn’t know about the reaper death seal, which allowed Hirzen to take him by surprise and stop the fight before Oro got serious. Remember that your ability to control your own body is important to utilising your proper strength, the Hokage being mindless robots for Oro to control prevents them using the fighting genius they normally possess. Maybe the 2 Hokage would have gotten rid of the explosive tags if they could control their own movements, but Oro’s tags didn’t require them to because he knew that explosive tags couldn’t hurt them. Remember, sometimes the author has illogical things happen, then retrospectively explains them. Like when Madara “let” Onoki blast some of his armour off, just so we could see the 1st Hokage’s face.
    Him "beating" the 3 is often over exaggerated, however, it stands that Enma was capable of fighting off the mokuton and he was able to counter Bringer of Darkness purely using his sense of smell. While it wasn't a "full on fight" from Hashi/Tobi and Orochimaru, it wasn't one from Hiruzen either, as pointed out by the statement from Enma. Would the 3 have murked him if not for Orochimaru's "toying" with him? Yeah. I don't know of anyone not named Edo Madara that could take on all 3 of them and pull off a victory even if they weren't edo tensei. But considering they had unlimited chakra and indestructible bodies, it would make it that much harder.

    This brings me to the next point, which a lot of people have flagged. The author changes his mind. Maybe back in volume 17 Kishi thought of Hirzen as the strongest (or 2nd strongest) Hokage ever… but it’s very obvious at this point that view has been retconned. Now we don’t strictly need to use this logic, because the above arguments I addressed don’t really give much support to the idea Hirzen is that great, but certainly it’s fair for Hirzen fans to feel like once upon a time Kishi intended for Hirzen to be one of the best Shinobi of all time. What that shouldn’t blind them to is that there’s pretty much no good evidence left to suggest he was, as we’ve gotten more and more evidence of stronger and stronger shinobi as the manga went (some who died a long time ago, some who are alive right now). I also feel like old age is a really crap excuse for Hirzen… sure, I can buy he was weaker, but Onoki (who is far older) is doing stuff that makes Hirzen look pitiful, such as carrying islands and meteors, atomising large areas, summoning giant stone golems bigger than Hirzen’s earth wall, etc. Based off feats, Hirzen probably isn’t in the top 20 shinobi, and even that’s charitable. I’m sure he had a kage level strength, much like Tsunade who gets unfairly criticized, and we should remember that Itachi and Minato show us power doesn’t require scale or flashiness. You can have relatively small and simple techniques and be awesome. But we can’t just look at some hyperbole and a fight where nobody was going all out (under special conditions) and then say “yeh, Hirzen MUST have been the best… some randoms said so”.
    Again, not worried about "strongest kage".

    In regards to old age and Hiruzen/Onoki, old age has effected people differently in this series. It could have something to do with Hiruzen's retirement hurt him physically, Onoki has kept going as kage(though his back gives out, lol). It could be that Onoki simply aged a lot better. It could be that Onoki was stronger than Hiruzen in his prime and is stronger than him in old age, lord knows Onoki's a bad ass. But it's important to remember we didn't even see what all Hiruzen was capable of, even in old age. Hard to judge what would have happened/what we would have seen from him if he just fought Orochimaru alone. Who knows what happened.
     
         
    Last edited by EliteKakashi; 01-18-2013 at 08:50 AM.

  2. #27
    Senior Member Ero sennin jiraiya's Avatar
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    Re: Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable

    This entire thread is just a bunch of hyperbole and hating on hiruzen. OP is fail. I wouldn't call this thread "myth busting" at all.
     
         

  3. #28
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    Re: Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable

    Quote Originally Posted by wizzyguy View Post
    OP is stupid
    very blunt and direct, I like it :P
     
         

  4. #29
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    Re: Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable

    Quote Originally Posted by ItachiStyle View Post
    I have noticed an alarming number of errors on this board, and I'm going to start trying to eliminate them so that people stop citing them as evidence for their theories.

    The second one is the constant claim that the 3rd Hokage was "the god of shinobi", "the most powerful Hokage", the most powerful Kage of his time", etc, etc. This claim has virtually no evidence for it, and the evidence that Hirzen was the strongest Hokage is very bad (especially compared to Hashirama.

    Hashirama is clearly stronger than Hirzen ever was
    A sensible and consistent application of the evidence tells us Hashirama was clearly stronger than Hirzen. Now of course, anything could be wrong. For all we know there was a hidden leaf black ops ninja who we were never told about, who kept his true power hidden, and was actually stronger than the Sage of the 6 paths... but that's not how logic works. You don't imagine something that could be possible, you go off the evidence. Let's look at the evidence.

    Evidence for Hirzen
    - Some hyperbolic remarks in the manga, these being; a) that he was "said to be" the strongest ho/kage, and b) the claim he "was said to" "know all jutsu in the leaf". These 2 bits of evidence are extremely poor. The first remark is hyperbolic, and in the manga we've seen no end of remarks like this that were subsequently proven to be hyperbole. Remember how we were told Haku's jutsu had "never been stopped", or how "there's no stopping" Oro's soul transfer jutsu? You know, right before both were stopped. There are dozens of examples of this sort of hyperbole in the comic, which is why people don't go off hyperbole, they go off feats. Comic books have this problem all the time, which is why the 10 eyed man isn't actually the "most dangerous man in the world" as Batman comics hyperbolically state. Also consider the source here. This isn't a comment we're being given by the narrator, or by someone with credibility. These 2 remarks are from Iruka, some no name ninja's, and Oro is mocking that he's able to beat "you who were said to know all jutsu in the leaf". You act like the Sage of the 6 paths declared it to be so, and carved it on a mountain of truths.

    As for "knowing all jutsu", he clearly doesn't know how to perform them, and if he does he was really dumb not to use them in a fight to the death with Oro. Maybe he knows of them, but it's far too much of a stretch to grant him every jutsu in the leaf with no evidence off such a flimsy remark as "he was said to" know them all (the Manga is full of these sorts of patently false remarks, just like Haku’s jutsu being unstoppable). We’re even explicitly told later that affinity with all 5 elements is impossible without the rinnegan. So at best, this reputation remark is a reference to generic jutsu… and as someone else said, if you take away bloodline abilities and elemental jutsu, does that even leave much in the way of jutsu that matter? Not really.

    - Hirzen scored high in the databooks
    There is no reason for us to treat the databooks seriously. They’re not written by the author, and are full of obviously ridiculous material. Ameratsu is not “as hot as the sun”, and Naruto isn’t dragonball Z, where power levels mean something. For heaven’s sake, the databook gives Oro the same Genjutsu score as Itachi (a 5), which is patently ridiculous. Nobody should be invoking the databook as evidence of anything, no more than non-cannon star wars material, or a bunch of fanfic really. The scores in the databook do not represent characters actual abilities (Itachi for instance owns Oro every which way on Genjutsu, yet has an equal score… ridiculous).

    - Hirzen “beat” Oro and the 2 edo Hokages.
    Oro says very clearly that the 2 hokages are toying with him, and that’s evident from reading the manga fight (remember, the anime doesn’t count), where the hokage spend most of the fight standing around and letting Oro talk, and when Oro prompts them they do a few jutsu, but basically they just stand there. There’s very little reason to believe these guys are going all out, and given that a) they’re fighting in a confined area that massively disadvantages them, and b) what we see off Hashirama’s power later, it’s pretty clear we can’t take the fight at face value.

    I won’t use the invented logic of “Oro hadn’t perfected Edo Tensei”, we have no indication that means they weren’t at full strength, but they clearly aren’t being made to go all out, because Oro thought there was no way he could lose, partly because he didn’t know about the reaper death seal, which allowed Hirzen to take him by surprise and stop the fight before Oro got serious. Remember that your ability to control your own body is important to utilising your proper strength, the Hokage being mindless robots for Oro to control prevents them using the fighting genius they normally possess. Maybe the 2 Hokage would have gotten rid of the explosive tags if they could control their own movements, but Oro’s tags didn’t require them to because he knew that explosive tags couldn’t hurt them. Remember, sometimes the author has illogical things happen, then retrospectively explains them. Like when Madara “let” Onoki blast some of his armour off, just so we could see the 1st Hokage’s face.

    This brings me to the next point, which a lot of people have flagged. The author changes his mind. Maybe back in volume 17 Kishi thought of Hirzen as the strongest (or 2nd strongest) Hokage ever… but it’s very obvious at this point that view has been retconned. Now we don’t strictly need to use this logic, because the above arguments I addressed don’t really give much support to the idea Hirzen is that great, but certainly it’s fair for Hirzen fans to feel like once upon a time Kishi intended for Hirzen to be one of the best Shinobi of all time. What that shouldn’t blind them to is that there’s pretty much no good evidence left to suggest he was, as we’ve gotten more and more evidence of stronger and stronger shinobi as the manga went (some who died a long time ago, some who are alive right now). I also feel like old age is a really crap excuse for Hirzen… sure, I can buy he was weaker, but Onoki (who is far older) is doing stuff that makes Hirzen look pitiful, such as carrying islands and meteors, atomising large areas, summoning giant stone golems bigger than Hirzen’s earth wall, etc. Based off feats, Hirzen probably isn’t in the top 20 shinobi, and even that’s charitable. I’m sure he had a kage level strength, much like Tsunade who gets unfairly criticized, and we should remember that Itachi and Minato show us power doesn’t require scale or flashiness. You can have relatively small and simple techniques and be awesome. But we can’t just look at some hyperbole and a fight where nobody was going all out (under special conditions) and then say “yeh, Hirzen MUST have been the best… some randoms said so”.

    Evidence for Hashirama
    There’s so much, I feel like there’s not a lot of point getting into it all. We’re told, balls out, that Hashi beat EMS Madara and the 9 tails fox. Then we see a double page picture of the fight, which seems to tell us that “yes, it was just him v.s the 2 of them with no help” (something we also see in that animated scene of their fight, though I think we shouldn’t give anime any weight really), and then we see Madara resurrected and are shown he’s even more awesome than we thought, and he apparently still respects and fears Hashirama (something evidenced from flashbacks too, where he’s apparently fought the dude multiple times, and lost, and can’t handle it when people mention his name; “never mention THAT shinobi’s name in my presence again!”… this is right before Madara effortlessly schools Mu and Onoki at the same time, remembering this is Mu and Onoki who have done stuff much more impressive than Hirzen, and Madara only had the EMS at this point, and it's subsequently revealed Madara wasn't even trying in this fight, and when Onoki asks him why he never tried against him and Muu, Madara just asks him if he'd really try against a child, because apparently one of the most powerful Kages ever, along with his master, are children compared to EMS Madara... the same EMS Madara who Hashirama beat WITH the 9 Tailed Fox).

    Even without the Rinnegan, or Hashi’s DNA, Madara has techniques like perfect Susanoo, against which the 5 kages are helpless. And Hashirama apparently beat him with it… are you kidding? There’s no way Hirzen could have done any of this… and please remember, Madara wasn’t trying before then in his fight against the kage, so all this “Garra and Naruto nearly beat him” stuff is ridiculous… Madara wasn’t even trying then. Then look at the scale of the techniques Madara uses, which were apparently all Hashirama’s- creating and controlling whole forests (with pollen that makes you fall asleep), healing yourself without seals, having Tsunade like strength, and summoning giant wood dragons? Oh, and Hashi can use his seemingly bottomless chakra to create tonnes of wood clones, which nobody except Madara can differentiate from him, and which seem to have comparable powers to the user themselves. Yeh, good luck smelling out the real Hashirama when the air around you is filled with pollen that puts you to sleep when you inhale it. Did I mention Hashi could, at his peak, summon all the tailed beasts (remember, he controlled all the beasts at one point). Remember, every technique Yamato can do is like a pale shadow of Hashi, and Yamato is himself a pretty impressive Shinobi who summons small mountains and lakes effortlessly… again, it seems absurd Hirzen could have touched someone like this, whose hype is even better, and more decisive than Hirzens. In the 3rds case we’ve got some no name ninja’s saying “he was said” to be X good, while for Hashi we’ve got guys with cred like Madara and Kabuto saying “he was the only one who could beat me”, or “his power was so incredible, it was thought a fairy tale”. This is a guy whose blood is apparently so potent, it can do stuff like let ShiSui’s eye work once a day, instead of once per 10 years… that’s a 3650 fold increase in effectiveness… that’s how powerful a mere portion of his chakra is… indeed, it seems to be able to let Tobi use his MS a ridiculous, abusive number of times, despite the fact that he should have gone blind by this point given his overuse of MS.

    All the good evidence tells us we should side with Hashi, while to support Hirzen we have to cherry pick the evidence we like, while closing our eyes to the much better evidence that counteracts it, and ignoring basic principles of logic.
    My thoughts exactly. Finally someone uses logic and common sense.
     
         

  5. #30
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    Re: Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable

    Well till we see a filler or flashback about Hiruzn then we will know. But as of the manga and according to Kishimoto the strongest Kage is Hiruzen. Sorry bro, gotta face it.
     
         

  6. #31
    ☆NR#1 Stalker on NB☆ Aze's Avatar
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    Re: Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable

    Here is a fun fact.


    "A master with a pebble can defeat an opponent with a shuriken" - Zetsu

    Hiruzen might have mastered some of hes Jutsus to an Impossible level that he was able to perform in hes prime.

    But was unable to in hes older days and even if he tried he could died instantly because the Jutsu may have used large amounts of chakra but he could have used the Jutsus in hes Prime with no effort and even spam them If he where to use some of hes Prime jutsu then all of hes efforts to protect the village would have been pointless and the Whole Konoha could have been destroyed along with the inhabitants.

    Also Hiruzen knew , that Fighting in smaller area was best for the village.

    That's also one of the reasons why Hiruzen did not want to destroy the barrier surrounding them.

    Reason for that is , Hiruzen knew the landscape forming ability of Hashirama Senju.

    If Hiruzen where to battle Hashirama Senju on large open space in the village , Orochimaru could have used Hashiramas wood techniques to extreme level and Destroyed the whole Konoha with extreme amounts of casualities.

    Hiruzen was buying time and actually stalling the fight in order to give time to the village people to escape the village before things could have gotten out of hand.

    But Luckily Orochimaru played right to hes hand and did not order Sound Ninja to remove the Barrier.

    The Barrier was set up in there for the simple fact , that Orochimaru wanted to contain Hiruzen in a smaller area and spam techniques at him and not let him recover.

    To tire him out and then deliver a fatal blow.

    But Orochimaru did a serious mistake , he did not excpect that Hiruzens will to live and protect the village was so great that cant be measured by common sense.

    Well we can all agree , that Orochimarus Physical Stamina was superior to Hiruzen at this point.



    Hes chakra network was old and fragile do to hes advanced age and strain from numerous battles in the past.



    HERE IS THE KEY POINT.


    Hiruzen was considered the strongest not by hes knowledge of Jutsu or hes mastery over them.

    But By hes Will to Never give up and Stood tall and Fearless in the Face of Death.

    That's also the reason Why Second choose Hiruzen to be the next Hokage.

    Since Second felt First Hokage Senju Hashirama living inside of Hiruzen , the Will of fire was strong in Hiruzen.

    Also Tobirama was willing to fight an impossible fight in order to protect the younger generation doing so with the cost of hes own life.

    Hiruzen was no different , Hiruzen protected the village so that the younger Generation may live and become a great Shinobi like he and hes masters before him.


    Hiruzen was considered the strongest for the simple fact he protected the village and people loved him for hes efforts.

    Hiruzen was not only one person he was thousands upon thousands of people combined who shared the Will of Fire.

    Hes strength came from the people he wanted to protect.


    When he fought Oro + first and second summonings.

    Hiruzen knew , that he was going to die.

    Even from the chakra usage at hes old age he was 100 % certain to die.

    He was at hes physical limit and almost out of chakra even before the battle had started.

    So practically he was Dead at the first moment when the battle started.

    But he went into ultimate lenghts and impossible came possible during this process.

    Any other Ninja living at this point could have given up this fight and lost.

    But Hiruzen stood tall knowing that hes life is over in minutes gave 100 % and more to protect the Village from Orochimaru.

    At the cost of hes own life sealed the second and the first and crippled Orochimaru.

    That is a feat only compareable to that of Rikudo Sennin defeating the Juubi and sealing it inside of himself.

    Thanks to Hiruzen , Orochimaru and the Sound Ninja where to escape the village many lives where saved thanks to Hiruzens sacrifice.

    Hiruzen smiled in the face of death and feared nothing , knowing that he will live forever until the end of ages in people who inherited the will of fire.








    Well Madaras or Hashiramas techniques are epicly strong they can litteraly reform the landscapes.


    But that doesnt mean , that they cant be countered by extremely intelligent and versatile fighter like Hiruzen.





    Hiruzen might have been the only Shinobi in Naruto Manga to actually be able to counter absolutely every technique even at the cost of hes own life and render oponents powerless in the process.


    Also If you think about it.


    He was given a name : Savior of this world.


    Shared by Rikudo Sennin.


    Most people dont understand , that Kishi gave Hiruzen that title to foreshadow something extremely important.




    Hiruzen became the Hokage.

    Was Respected and Feared in the whole world.


    He was the master of Jiraiya.


    And passed hes will into Jiraiya.

    Jiraiya was the master of Minato.

    And the master of Naruto.

    Passing hes will to both of them.


    Atm Naruto is on the Battelfield and actually saving the world.


    Naruto will be the one to claim this title after the war is over.


    So actually we can consider Hiruzens power to protect the world as #1 sharing the spot with Rikudo Sennin and soon to be shared with Naruto aswell.





    NP.
     
         

  7. #32
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    The databooks are trash
     

    Re: Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable

    Most of what was said above is either irrelevant, or speculative theories which have no real base in the evidence (.e.g. Hirzen had lots of scrolls, he must have had super awesome techniques we didn't see, and he was too dumb to use against Oro). Really silly stuff here. I will say this about the databook though. It's not enough to say "the databook is cannon", and then to say "oh, if the databook is shown to be wrong, then we should interpret the databook in a way which is silly and counter intuitive, so we can maintain the myth the databook is credible". Your analysis of the Genjutsu rating for instance is ridiculous... if Oro and Itachi having a 5 doesn't mean anything, and only represents a vague conceptual ranking of their technical knowledge (but not what they could actually do) then it's meaningless to quote the databook isn't it. That's not a question by the way. If Itachi and Oro both having a 5 doesn't necessarily mean they are equal, then why the heck are Hirzen supporters invoking his databook scores like they mean something? The answer is that they want it both ways.
     
         

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    Re: Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable

    This is an embarrassment to the Naruto as a story, and Kishi as an author. Saying that the "strongest" kage, is the "better" kage is completely nonsense...

    You say Hirzuen is dumb, if he didn't use other jutsu in his battle with Oro. Well why didn't Oro use other jutsu? Like his 10,000 snakes, which he could use in part 2. Or his Giant Hydra, which he also used in part 2.... Oh wait, Oro had a power-up (with sealed hands and illness), Hiruzen would be stronger in part 2 as well. Besides he was an old geezer, his chakra levels were disappearing. You ask why, he didn't use other jutsu? He simply had no way to seal 2 extremely strong edo tenseis, so he had to divide his already low chakra pool. If he started using other jutsu, and it failed, he hadn't been able to seal any of them.

    No Hiru didn't win, he didn't even tie it, cause Oro lived. However, Hiru protected Konoha, which is what he needed to do. He protected it from Oro, from his former teachers, and from himself (ie. he sealed himself as well).

    Certainly only a few people can be left, stating Hiruzen > Hashirama, I'm not one of them, but manga evidence still says it though. Besides this is not something provable. It's the most useless discussion on these forums. Nothing can be proved. We don't know prime Hiruzen, and we only know hype regarding Hashirama. What to believe? It's up to the independent individual to decide, and nobody, are entitled to piss on people, saying Hiruzen > Hashirama. Just as I am allowed to say TenTen > Hashirama.

    Now back to the worst part. Your titled sort of says that Hiruzen was a worthless hokage. Rofl. Kishi said, he was the "strongest" hokage. Thereby not saying Hiruzen > Hashirama in a fight, but in terms of being hokage, Hiruzen is/was better. Databook backs it up, by saying he was the most popular hokage ever. The other thing is that he managed to live and keep Konoha on top through 3 great wars. Though it wasn't him alone (obviously), the hokage is still the one, who gets praised for it.

    The only one surpassing him would be Onoki, and we can all see that he is a lot stronger than the other 4 kages. A lot more experienced, and gifted as well. Oro and Hiru are from the same generation, plus Hiru was said to be the strongest among the 5 kages (ie. the hokage is said to be the strongest). So if you ask me Onoki is the strongest kage in the Narutoverse. You can't find anyone, who did his job, as good as him

    Quote Originally Posted by ItachiStyle View Post
    - Hirzen scored high in the databooks
    There is no reason for us to treat the databooks seriously. They’re not written by the author, and are full of obviously ridiculous material. Ameratsu is not “as hot as the sun”, and Naruto isn’t dragonball Z, where power levels mean something. For heaven’s sake, the databook gives Oro the same Genjutsu score as Itachi (a 5), which is patently ridiculous. Nobody should be invoking the databook as evidence of anything, no more than non-cannon star wars material, or a bunch of fanfic really. The scores in the databook do not represent characters actual abilities (Itachi for instance owns Oro every which way on Genjutsu, yet has an equal score… ridiculous).
    Your criticism of the databooks are somewhat over-exaggerated. The jutsu descriptions are useful, and Kishi has made the explanations himself. A lot of jutsu, we simply have no idea, how it works, only the databook, can give us that. Surely many things are over-talked in the databook, like Amaterasu being as hot as the sun, but only a fool, would even mention it....

    You say Itachi owns Oro every way with Genjutsu. All we have seen, is Itachi using the Uchihas remarked binding technique to paralyze Oro. This alone proves nothing, but that Oro actually is a genius in Genjutsu. If he had the confidence, to not fear eye contact with Itachi, he must know something.

    The other is, when Oro and Sasuke made the ritual, for Oro to overtake his body. This is actually Genjutsu in the databook. He enters a part of the targets mind, where he overtakes control, thus absorbs his body and mind. However, Oros genjutsu, could not over-power Sasukes, and thus the opposite happened. Going back to the situation with Itachi, what would have happened if Oro tried to take him over? Well there you go. 2 people having 5 in genjutsu, does not make them equal after all. Surely it's inaccurate to give Oro 5, 4 had been better.

    Manga > Databook. Like Ama being as hot as the sun, Manga shows otherwise. Oro being equal to Ita, manga again. Fact is the databook aren't deciding factors, when compared to the manga, but usually it is in accordance to the manga. Those few examples you can find, are just silly. The databook contains a lot of evidence, which is useful for understanding jutsu and characters background. It is better evidence than, what people like you and I assume about a character.
     
         
    Last edited by thegame; 01-22-2013 at 08:06 AM.

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    Re: Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable

    Quote Originally Posted by thegame View Post
    This is an embarrassment to the Naruto as a story, and Kishi as an author. Saying that the "strongest" kage, is the "better" kage is completely nonsense...
    I don't care which is the "better" kage (whatever that means). Maybe reading the title of my thread would have cleared this up for you.

    You say Hirzuen is dumb, if he didn't use other jutsu in his battle with Oro. Well why didn't Oro use other jutsu?
    Oro didn't need to use any other jutsu. He was winning, until Hirzen used a jutsu he wasn't prepared for, and caught him by surprise (after which no further jutsu were possible). The guy had already summoned 2 of the strongest edo ninja ever, and is standing around "toying" with Hirzen... he doesn't need to summon more snakes, he's already got 2 summons vastly beyond the power of any other summons or jutsu he could use in this circumstance.

    And please, quit saying "Oro had sealed hands" when he used the Hydra and 10,000 snake techniques... see this thread here:
    http://narutobase.net/forums/showthread.php?t=303677
    As far as we can tell he was no longer under any impediment from his sealed hands.

    he was an old geezer, his chakra levels were disappearing.
    He's young compared to Onoki, who has demonstrated feats way beyond anything Hirzen showed us.

    You ask why, he didn't use other jutsu? He simply had no way to seal 2 extremely strong edo tenseis, so he had to divide his already low chakra pool. If he started using other jutsu, and it failed, he hadn't been able to seal any of them.
    If Hirzen could pull out jutsu like the flying thunder god technique he was definitely dumb not to use them. Look, I don't doubt Hirzen was a knowledgable and strong Kage, well worthy of his title, but we can't just assume he actually knew how to perform all jutsu in the leaf, because of a one off sarcastic comment from Oro that he "was said to know all jutsu in the leaf". By that logic we should just assume Haku's jutsu really was unstoppable. It's silly, especially as we're also told explicitly that "only X and y" could perform certain jutsu (like the rasengan), which is alot more decisive and credible than hyperbolic sarcastic one off remarks from a villain taunting his former teacher. I'm pretty damn sure Hirzen couldn't use space time barriers, given he had 2 chances to stop the 9 tails destroying the village, and had to stand there doing nothing with an "oh F#$@" expression on his face, while Minato stopped it both times.

    No Hiru didn't win, he didn't even tie it, cause Oro lived. However, Hiru protected Konoha, which is what he needed to do. He protected it from Oro, from his former teachers, and from himself (ie. he sealed himself as well).
    Which has nothing to do with whether he is the strongest Kage ever, which is what this thread is about.

    Certainly only a few people can be left, stating Hiruzen > Hashirama, I'm not one of them, but manga evidence still says it though.
    The Manga says alot of things that are clearly false (or erroneous). And this isn't word of god, it's a one liner from a villain. I guess Tobi must be Madara, because he said so. There's no way villains could lie, or say something misleading, is there.

    Besides this is not something provable. It's the most useless discussion on these forums. Nothing can be proved.
    It annoys me when I see remarks like this, which I dealt with in almost the opening sentence of my opening post...

    We don't know prime Hiruzen, and we only know hype regarding Hashirama. What to believe? It's up to the independent
    individual to decide, and nobody, are entitled to piss on people, saying Hiruzen > Hashirama. Just as I am allowed to say TenTen > Hashirama.
    People can hold any opinion they like... and we can judge them on those opinions. And when their opinion is uninformed and illogical, people can dismiss those opinions as unsound, and the people who hold them as irrational.

    Now back to the worst part. Your titled sort of says that Hiruzen was a worthless hokage.
    It says nothing of the sort. Nothing he has done makes us think he was especially notable as a Kage, but that speaks more to the incredibly high standard of Kage we've seen thus far. Kage level ninja like Jiraiya are way beyond most ninja. Thus far, Hirzen might be the weakest of the 5 Hokage we've seen (and weaker than cheapanagi, massively upgraded Danzo). I certainly think he'd have been stronger than quite a few Kage, such as Gaara's father, or the current Mizukage, but the other Hokage we've seen/heard of seem stronger, either by a large margin (like Hashirama), or a lesser one. I can certainly believe a prime Hirzen was in the Tsunade range of Kage, and maybe even comparable to the 2nd Hokage (though I'm a little dubious, I can't be sure), but he's not notable as a kage really. He's at best 3rd or 4th among Hokage (discounting Danzo), and certainly has done nothing to put himself in the same tier as Onoki (or even guys like Mu and the 3rd Raikage, and by extension the 2nd Mizukage)

    Rofl. Kishi said, he was the "strongest" hokage. Thereby not saying Hiruzen > Hashirama in a fight, but in terms of being hokage, Hiruzen is/was better. Databook backs it up, by saying he was the most popular hokage ever. The other thing is that he managed to live and keep Konoha on top through 3 great wars. Though it wasn't him alone (obviously), the hokage is still the one, who gets praised for it.
    "Most Popular"? That has nothing to do with strength. I feel like you didn't even read this thread, or understand what it was about. It was not about his popularity, or legacy, or teaching skills, or grasp of military strategy. It was about how powerful he was... in battle.

    The only one surpassing him would be Onoki, and we can all see that he is a lot stronger than the other 4 kages.
    Well, Onoki needed Gaara and Naruto to beat Mu, so there's another Kage who is as strong. And the 2nd Mizukage by extension. I think it's pretty clear the 3rd Raikage has a strong case over anything we've seen Hirzen do either. I can't see him beating cheaped up Danzo, and there are heaps of characters without a kage title who are as strong or stronger than him too.

    Your criticism of the databooks are somewhat over-exaggerated. The jutsu descriptions are useful, and Kishi has made the explanations himself. A lot of jutsu, we simply have no idea, how it works, only the databook, can give us that. Surely many things are over-talked in the databook, like Amaterasu being as hot as the sun, but only a fool, would even mention it....

    You say Itachi owns Oro every way with Genjutsu. All we have seen, is Itachi using the Uchihas remarked binding technique to paralyze Oro. This alone proves nothing, but that Oro actually is a genius in Genjutsu. If he had the confidence, to not fear eye contact with Itachi, he must know something.
    So many words, but none of them address what I've said. If Itachi owns Oro in Genjutsu, as you say, then the numbers are meaningless as a point of comparison, in which case they shouldn't be invoked to prop up Hirzen. Nor should the comments, when they've often been proved wrong.
     
         
    Last edited by ItachiStyle; 01-22-2013 at 09:55 AM.

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    Re: Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable

    Quote Originally Posted by ItachiStyle View Post
    I don't care which is the "better" kage (whatever that means). Maybe reading the title of my thread would have cleared this up for you.


    Oro didn't need to use any other jutsu. He was winning, until Hirzen used a jutsu he wasn't prepared for, and caught him by surprise (after which no further jutsu were possible). The guy had already summoned 2 of the strongest edo ninja ever, and is standing around "toying" with Hirzen... he doesn't need to summon more snakes, he's already got 2 summons vastly beyond the power of any other summons or jutsu he could use in this circumstance.

    And please, quit saying "Oro had sealed hands" when he used the Hydra and 10,000 snake techniques... see this thread here:
    http://narutobase.net/forums/showthread.php?t=303677
    As far as we can tell he was no longer under any impediment from his sealed hands.


    He's young compared to Onoki, who has demonstrated feats way beyond anything Hirzen showed us.


    If Hirzen could pull out jutsu like the flying thunder god technique he was definitely dumb not to use them. Look, I don't doubt Hirzen was a knowledgable and strong Kage, well worthy of his title, but we can't just assume he actually knew how to perform all jutsu in the leaf, because of a one off sarcastic comment from Oro that he "was said to know all jutsu in the leaf". By that logic we should just assume Haku's jutsu really was unstoppable. It's silly, especially as we're also told explicitly that "only X and y" could perform certain jutsu (like the rasengan), which is alot more decisive and credible than hyperbolic sarcastic one off remarks from a villain taunting his former teacher. I'm pretty damn sure Hirzen couldn't use space time barriers, given he had 2 chances to stop the 9 tails destroying the village, and had to stand there doing nothing with an "oh F#$@" expression on his face, while Minato stopped it both times.


    Which has nothing to do with whether he is the strongest Kage ever, which is what this thread is about.



    The Manga says alot of things that are clearly false (or erroneous). And this isn't word of god, it's a one liner from a villain. I guess Tobi must be Madara, because he said so. There's no way villains could lie, or say something misleading, is there.


    It annoys me when I see remarks like this, which I dealt with in almost the opening sentence of my opening post...


    People can hold any opinion they like... and we can judge them on those opinions. And when their opinion is uninformed and illogical, people can dismiss those opinions as unsound, and the people who hold them as irrational.


    It says nothing of the sort. Nothing he has done makes us think he was especially notable as a Kage, but that speaks more to the incredibly high standard of Kage we've seen thus far. Kage level ninja like Jiraiya are way beyond most ninja. Thus far, Hirzen might be the weakest of the 5 Hokage we've seen (and weaker than cheapanagi, massively upgraded Danzo). I certainly think he'd have been stronger than quite a few Kage, such as Gaara's father, or the current Mizukage, but the other Hokage we've seen/heard of seem stronger, either by a large margin (like Hashirama), or a lesser one. I can certainly believe a prime Hirzen was in the Tsunade range of Kage, and maybe even comparable to the 2nd Hokage (though I'm a little dubious, I can't be sure), but he's not notable as a kage really. He's at best 3rd or 4th among Hokage (discounting Danzo), and certainly has done nothing to put himself in the same tier as Onoki (or even guys like Mu and the 3rd Raikage, and by extension the 2nd Mizukage)


    "Most Popular"? That has nothing to do with strength. I feel like you didn't even read this thread, or understand what it was about. It was not about his popularity, or legacy, or teaching skills, or grasp of military strategy. It was about how powerful he was... in battle.

    The only one surpassing him would be Onoki, and we can all see that he is a lot stronger than the other 4 kages. A lot more experienced, and gifted as well. Oro and Hiru are from the same generation, plus Hiru was said to be the strongest among the 5 kages (ie. the hokage is said to be the strongest). So if you ask me Onoki is the strongest kage in the Narutoverse. You can't find anyone, who did his job, as good as him



    Your criticism of the databooks are somewhat over-exaggerated. The jutsu descriptions are useful, and Kishi has made the explanations himself. A lot of jutsu, we simply have no idea, how it works, only the databook, can give us that. Surely many things are over-talked in the databook, like Amaterasu being as hot as the sun, but only a fool, would even mention it....

    You say Itachi owns Oro every way with Genjutsu. All we have seen, is Itachi using the Uchihas remarked binding technique to paralyze Oro. This alone proves nothing, but that Oro actually is a genius in Genjutsu. If he had the confidence, to not fear eye contact with Itachi, he must know something.

    The other is, when Oro and Sasuke made the ritual, for Oro to overtake his body. This is actually Genjutsu in the databook. He enters a part of the targets mind, where he overtakes control, thus absorbs his body and mind. However, Oros genjutsu, could not over-power Sasukes, and thus the opposite happened. Going back to the situation with Itachi, what would have happened if Oro tried to take him over? Well there you go. 2 people having 5 in genjutsu, does not make them equal after all. Surely it's inaccurate to give Oro 5, 4 had been better.

    Manga > Databook. Like Ama being as hot as the sun, Manga shows otherwise. Oro being equal to Ita, manga again. Fact is the databook aren't deciding factors, when compared to the manga, but usually it is in accordance to the manga. Those few examples you can find, are just silly. The databook contains a lot of evidence, which is useful for understanding jutsu and characters background. It is better evidence than, what people like you and I assume about a character.
    [/QUOTE]

    We have a time lord between us guys :P
    Dude how can you spend so much time on writing an essay about Hiruzen, a dead uninteresting fictional character that hasn't been shown for ages?

    p.s. yes I replied with quote just to spam and emphasize my point :P
     
         

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    Re: Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable

    Quote Originally Posted by ItachiStyle View Post
    I don't care which is the "better" kage (whatever that means). Maybe reading the title of my thread would have cleared this up for you.
    , if you think being hokage is only about shinobi strength. Besides you are still basing this on hypes about Hashirama, whom we have nowhere near enough evidence to clarify stronger than others. Only EMS Madara, we can say he beat him, but does that make him stronger? It all depends on the battle. Who used more chakra, Hashi binding the Kuybi, or Madara summoning/controlling it? Hashi had his necklace, making it easier to bind it/control it. No need to prove that. Yamato said that Hashi was made hokage, because of his ability to control/stop a tailed beast (in particular the kuybi). And that the necklace was in huge aid for that.


    Oro didn't need to use any other jutsu. He was winning, until Hirzen used a jutsu he wasn't prepared for, and caught him by surprise (after which no further jutsu were possible). The guy had already summoned 2 of the strongest edo ninja ever, and is standing around "toying" with Hirzen... he doesn't need to summon more snakes, he's already got 2 summons vastly beyond the power of any other summons or jutsu he could use in this circumstance.
    Pff, then he did indeed need another/better jutsu. Yeah he was "toying", but make no mistake. Oro more than anyone respects Hiruzen. However, he did not respect his ideals, and didn't believe that old man, would be able to do, what he did. As for the summons, practically helped hiruzen. The darkness removed Oros senses. Possibly he knew of Hirus smelling ability. Yet Hiruzen proved that his strength, even with a bunshin, was enough to physically keep 1st and 2nd from performing hand seals. Don't you think the edo tensei would have made them break free? Plus his strength was even divided among bunshins. And as an old man..

    And please, quit saying "Oro had sealed hands" when he used the Hydra and 10,000 snake techniques... see this thread here:
    http://narutobase.net/forums/showthread.php?t=303677
    As far as we can tell he was no longer under any impediment from his sealed hands.
    Hmm, I think Oro can use hand seals to some hardly limited amount due to use of medicine and drugs. He has a special tatoo, which allows him to summon snakes freely, and as you see, he uses mouth most of time (all of the time actually? Can't remember any with hands). The only summoning jutsu he used after having his hands seals, is the triple rashomon.

    He's young compared to Onoki, who has demonstrated feats way beyond anything Hirzen showed us.
    I doubt he is younger, tho no databook can prove Onokis age, however, when Madara met Onoki 1st time, he didn't look older than Hiruzen did in Danzos war-flashback. I am almost certain that they are from the same generation (+/- 0-3 years), when the databook comes out.

    If Hirzen could pull out jutsu like the flying thunder god technique he was definitely dumb not to use them. Look, I don't doubt Hirzen was a knowledgable and strong Kage, well worthy of his title, but we can't just assume he actually knew how to perform all jutsu in the leaf, because of a one off sarcastic comment from Oro that he "was said to know all jutsu in the leaf". By that logic we should just assume Haku's jutsu really was unstoppable. It's silly, especially as we're also told explicitly that "only X and y" could perform certain jutsu (like the rasengan), which is alot more decisive and credible than hyperbolic sarcastic one off remarks from a villain taunting his former teacher. I'm pretty damn sure Hirzen couldn't use space time barriers, given he had 2 chances to stop the 9 tails destroying the village, and had to stand there doing nothing with an "oh F#$@" expression on his face, while Minato stopped it both times.
    , knowing jutsu and being able to perform it is different. Having knowledge, means you can fight it, counter it, etc. Besides it's just a feat. But fact is he knows much more than any other from leaf..

    The Manga says alot of things that are clearly false (or erroneous). And this isn't word of god, it's a one liner from a villain. I guess Tobi must be Madara, because he said so. There's no way villains could lie, or say something misleading, is there.
    Hmm, again just an idiotic example... If a character says something, it's Kishi that says it. Tobi saying he is Madara, wasn't a direct lie. He just did, what Madara wanted. So practically he was acting as Madara. It was Madaras plan after all.

    It says nothing of the sort. Nothing he has done makes us think he was especially notable as a Kage, but that speaks more to the incredibly high standard of Kage we've seen thus far. Kage level ninja like Jiraiya are way beyond most ninja. Thus far, Hirzen might be the weakest of the 5 Hokage we've seen (and weaker than cheapanagi, massively upgraded Danzo). I certainly think he'd have been stronger than quite a few Kage, such as Gaara's father, or the current Mizukage, but the other Hokage we've seen/heard of seem stronger, either by a large margin (like Hashirama), or a lesser one. I can certainly believe a prime Hirzen was in the Tsunade range of Kage, and maybe even comparable to the 2nd Hokage (though I'm a little dubious, I can't be sure), but he's not notable as a kage really. He's at best 3rd or 4th among Hokage (discounting Danzo), and certainly has done nothing to put himself in the same tier as Onoki (or even guys like Mu and the 3rd Raikage, and by extension the 2nd Mizukage)
    Again I can only disagree. Hiruzen is the one that formed konoha as we know it. The 1st died shortly after founding it, though founding it is a huge contribution. Then war broke out, the 2nd (according to databooks), became hokage just as war breached (no wonder nobody wanted war with Konoha during Hashis life time, if you know what I mean). So he was only kage shortly, and didn't have time to do a dime. Surely he started police and the academy, but who formed those departments? Whos teaching has been taught in the academy? Etc.. It's Hiruzens. Surely he is influenced by his teacher, but it's Hiruzen who chose to lead that on. It's him who became hokage, so it's his responsibility that a person like Naruto came out. Surely there are bad examples as well, but any kage has ups and down during their reign. But having a stable system, which makes a shinobi village functional is the best. That is why, you chose someone like yourself as the next hokage, and obviously Hirzuen was stronger than Danzo. Take his last thoughts into account. Of course this changed, when Danzo obtained sharingan and Senju DNA..

    "Most Popular"? That has nothing to do with strength. I feel like you didn't even read this thread, or understand what it was about. It was not about his popularity, or legacy, or teaching skills, or grasp of military strategy. It was about how powerful he was... in battle.
    I did read your thread, my problem is, you say the strongest hokage. In that case your term is actually wrong. A leader is judged by many other factors than strength (fact). Had you said shinobi, fine, I wouldn't care, but hiruzen is a stronger kage than any other hokage. Popularity is a key factor.


    Well, Onoki needed Gaara and Naruto to beat Mu, so there's another Kage who is as strong. And the 2nd Mizukage by extension. I think it's pretty clear the 3rd Raikage has a strong case over anything we've seen Hirzen do either. I can't see him beating cheaped up Danzo, and there are heaps of characters without a kage title who are as strong or stronger than him too.
    It's fine you chose to judge by, what is shown in the manga. I judge by what is said. At some point in time, Hiruzen was stronger than Onoki and 3rd raikage (as I interpret it). This in my understanding of the word "strong", does not mean Hiruzen beat either in a 1 vs 1, but it means that if Hiru paired with 3 other shinobi (lets say 3 strongest next to him), and Onoki paired with the 3 strongest next to him, Hiruzens team would have overall more usefulness in a shinobi war. This again does not mean they beat Onokis team, but other factors are important. Now I will take your way of doing it, being strength alone, surely from what the manga shows, Hiruzen doesn't beat Onoki. Let me explain.

    The manga said the hokage is the strongest among the 5 kage. Though 3rd raikage was dead at that time, so neglect him. However, this is why, I believe that Kishi doesn't determine "strength as a kage" by just pure strength in battle. The hokage seems to be the one with more spirit, and more belief in his people than any of the other. This makes him the strongest, because it gives him a different will, and different ideals to fight for. If Kishi meant that Hiruzen is stronger than take Onoki or A, from what he shows us, it would not make sense.

    If you see, where I'm trying to get at, you would understand, why I dislike this thread, and the words/terms you use, even if you mean to only discuss ability, and you think Kishi either changed his opinion, or just is talking bull**** (ie your tobi example). This is wrong. I think he meant every word, but he simply interprets shinobi strength in another way.
    Take Iruka. To most around here he is fodder, to me he is one of the strongest shinobi, because of his will and his teachings. Just to name one. Of course I would never place him in a top50, since his disability in an actual fight, drags him down too hard. Yet I determine such lists by other feats than str

    So many words, but none of them address what I've said. If Itachi owns Oro in Genjutsu, as you say, then the numbers are meaningless as a point of comparison, in which case they shouldn't be invoked to prop up Hirzen. Nor should the comments, when they've often been proved wrong.
    You didn't read it... Itachi has never been shown to own Oro. All we have seen was a mere paralyzing genjutsu, which any person without sharingan could fall for.... I disagree that the numbers are meaningless, and I don't think your evidence has any ground on it.
    Surely many of the things are over-exaggerated, when description of shinobi or jutsu are made, but this is just a way of talking. Saying Amaterasu is as hot as the sun, simply means, it is the "hottest" jutsu in Naruto. It's all about reading between the lines...


    Basically it would be useful to mention a few words about the shinobi rankings.
    As a shinobi you need a lot of features, so being stronger than another, doesn't mean you beat him in a 1 vs 1. Kishi already proved this. You do not get better ranks from strength. Shikamaru is best example.
    Basically you need to know, what it takes to be:
    Genin, chunin, anbu, jonin, kage, and thus determine, who is better in each rank. So even if Hiruzen is a better kage than Hashirama, it doesn't make him a better jonin, since different features are needed.

    Also Kishi said in the databook that his ranking system is not comparable. If Oro has 5.0 is genjutsu it does not equal Itachis 5.0. This is not how the ranking system is made. The numbers describe a characters, specific ability within his own field, which can't always be compared. Bloodline abilities, jinchuuriki abilities, nature energy abilities, or other modes, are not mentioned in these stats. In other words, Itachi without sharingan would be around same level as Oro in genjutsu. But then again it also depends, which area of genjutsu the user specifies in. I don't know, which type of genjutsu Oro can do, well ninjutsu is a lot better example. Oro specifies in summoning ninjutsu, so obviously he is good at that. But can you compare that to Itachis fire based ninjutsu? Not really. If a person specifies in a very complex ninjutsu/genjutsu/tajutsu (take Gais tajutsu or the Huygas tajutsu), a 3.0 from a hyuga doesn't make him/her weaker in tajutsu than Itachi, who has 4.5 or Oro with 3.5. This also justifies a lot regarding Hiruzens stats.

    And just to add the last thing to clear this up. Kisames clone that fought team Gai has 4.5 in ninjutsu and tajutsu, and 5 in str and stamina. It had 30 % of his attributes, yet he will be a 5 in those as well. So does that make his clone just as strong as him? No. So even if you chose to neglect, what I said above, Oro being 5 in genjutsu, and ita being 5, still does not mean they are nowhere near each other. Also when it comes to tai/nin/gen you do know that a jutsu can be part of both. Thus you can enhance a genjutsu, by using a ninjutsu. So it's really not possible to compare stats, unless shinobi have most of the same jutsu.
     
         
    Last edited by thegame; 01-22-2013 at 10:16 PM.

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    Re: Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable

    Quote Originally Posted by thegame View Post
    , if you think being hokage is only about shinobi strength.
    That's what the thread is about. I wasn't making a thread about who was the greater leader, or the more inspirational, or the best dressed. If you can't respond to the parameters of my thread, maybe you should stop posting in it.

    Besides you are still basing this on hypes about Hashirama, whom we have nowhere near enough evidence to clarify stronger than others. Only EMS Madara, we can say he beat him, but does that make him stronger? It all depends on the battle.
    Oh, I think we've got alot of evidence at this point. Alot of it has been alluded to already. Madara even with only an EMS could own both Mu and a young Onoki simultaneously, despite "not trying". Even without the Rinnegan, it's pretty clear EMS Madara could own all 5 kages simultaneously, even with just his perfect Susanoo (which apparently Hashirama could stop), so the idea that we can't be sure he was stronger than Hirzen is pretty silly. I think it's pretty unclear if Hirzen could even stop the 9 Tails, let alone Madara (a guy who is not only stronger than the 9 tails, but can summon it to battle to fight with him). When the 9 Tails attacked Konoha Hirzen seemed to have no answer to it's tailed beast bomb except to stand there with an "Oh F#$@" expression, and wait for the 4th to bail him out. Madara is a guy who can destroy armies, and we're told flat out and repeatedly that Hashirama is in the same ball park. That's way outside anything Hirzen has shown or hinted at.

    Pff, then he did indeed need another/better jutsu. Yeah he was "toying", but make no mistake. Oro more than anyone respects Hiruzen. However, he did not respect his ideals, and didn't believe that old man, would be able to do, what he did.
    This just ignores what I said. Go back and read what I said. Oro didn't need a "better" jutsu, nor do I know of any better jutsu he has than Edo Tensei summoning the first 2 Hokages. He was winning, why would he need to try different jutsu?

    As for the summons, practically helped hiruzen. The darkness removed Oros senses. Possibly he knew of Hirus smelling ability. Yet Hiruzen proved that his strength, even with a bunshin, was enough to physically keep 1st and 2nd from performing hand seals. Don't you think the edo tensei would have made them break free? Plus his strength was even divided among bunshins. And as an old man..
    This is tiring, because you don't read other people's posts properly, and you make up stuff with no evidence. There is no evidence Oro was blinded by the darkness Genjutsu, for all we know it only blinds Hirzen, and everyone else can see. There is no indication of what you just claimed, it's just you theorising. That's not evidence. The 1st and 2nd weren't trying, so that fight is evidence of nothing. They didn't need hand seals anyway, because they both killed the Bushin's (notice all the blades sticking out of them?), they just didn't know of the death reaper seal, which enabled him to seal them unawares (not that it's fair to even say he caught the hokage unaware, as they lacked the ability to conrol their own bodies, and Oro was controlling them, using them to mess around, and was unconcerned at them getting damaged (as they were immune to damage). And in order to seal these (not trying) Edo's, the guy had to die himself. Not exactly a victory.

    Hmm, I think Oro can use hand seals to some hardly limited amount due to use of medicine and drugs. He has a special tatoo, which allows him to summon snakes freely, and as you see, he uses mouth most of time (all of the time actually? Can't remember any with hands). The only summoning jutsu he used after having his hands seals, is the triple rashomon.
    This is all just a bunch of theorising that ignores clear evidence. I linked you to a thread on this which shoots your theory down. You are making stuff up and acting like it should be treated as evidence. You need to stop doing that.

    I doubt he is younger, tho no databook can prove Onokis age, however, when Madara met Onoki 1st time, he didn't look older than Hiruzen did in Danzos war-flashback. I am almost certain that they are from the same generation (+/- 0-3 years), when the databook comes out.
    Well, firstly there have been calculations done on this, he was without question younger, so you're wrong. Period. Plus, when Madara met Onoki the first time and looked a similar age, Hashirama was still Hokage, and hadn't fought Madara yet, or captured all the tailed beasts. By the time we see Hirzen in the Danzo flashback, Hashirama has been long dead, and the 2nd Hokage had been Hokage for years, and is about to die. Onoki is so old, the guy has physically shrunk and has constant back problems. Hirzen didn't display any similar physical signs of age, except that he'd lost some stamina. If you want, I can link you to some calculations done on this, it won't be hard to find, but it's pretty clear Onoki is older. Indeed, Hirzen is depicted as still having brown hair only 16 or 17 years ago during the death of Minato.

    [, knowing jutsu and being able to perform it is different. Having knowledge, means you can fight it, counter it, etc. Besides it's just a feat. But fact is he knows much more than any other from leaf..
    How is this relevant. It's not.

    Hmm, again just an idiotic example... If a character says something, it's Kishi that says it. Tobi saying he is Madara, wasn't a direct lie. He just did, what Madara wanted. So practically he was acting as Madara. It was Madaras plan after all.
    This is absurd. Characters lie in the manga all the time. Itachi is the clearest example (though there are many others). It's ridiculous for you to claim that anything a character says should be taken literally. There are so many examples that make a mockery of your argument, it should be unecessary to mention them. And, as I also pointed out, even if we ignored logic and took the remark literally, we have other remarks that directly contradict it (e.g. Kishi "says" only the 4th and Jiraiya could do the rasengan... so Hirzen clearly didn't know that technique...). Your argument is terrible.

    Again I can only disagree. Hiruzen is the one that formed konoha as we know it. The 1st died shortly after founding it, though founding it is a huge contribution. Then war broke out, the 2nd (according to databooks), became hokage just as war breached (no wonder nobody wanted war with Konoha during Hashis life time, if you know what I mean). So he was only kage shortly, and didn't have time to do a dime. Surely he started police and the academy, but who formed those departments? Whos teaching has been taught in the academy? Etc.. It's Hiruzens. Surely he is influenced by his teacher, but it's Hiruzen who chose to lead that on. It's him who became hokage, so it's his responsibility that a person like Naruto came out. Surely there are bad examples as well, but any kage has ups and down during their reign. But having a stable system, which makes a shinobi village functional is the best. That is why, you chose someone like yourself as the next hokage, and obviously Hirzuen was stronger than Danzo. Take his last thoughts into account. Of course this changed, when Danzo obtained sharingan and Senju DNA..
    Again, as I said at the start of this post, and many other times, who cares? It's not relevant to the point of the thread.

    I did read your thread, my problem is, you say the strongest hokage. In that case your term is actually wrong. A leader is judged by many other factors than strength (fact). Had you said shinobi, fine, I wouldn't care, but hiruzen is a stronger kage than any other hokage. Popularity is a key factor.
    To paraphrase Madara; "You're going to beat me with your popularity? Power has nothing to do with popularity... it's an actual thing"

    It's fine you chose to judge by, what is shown in the manga. I judge by what is said. At some point in time, Hiruzen was stronger than Onoki and 3rd raikage (as I interpret it). This in my understanding of the word "strong", does not mean Hiruzen beat either in a 1 vs 1, but it means that if Hiru paired with 3 other shinobi (lets say 3 strongest next to him), and Onoki paired with the 3 strongest next to him, Hiruzens team would have overall more usefulness in a shinobi war. This again does not mean they beat Onokis team, but other factors are important. Now I will take your way of doing it, being strength alone, surely from what the manga shows, Hiruzen doesn't beat Onoki. Let me explain.

    The manga said the hokage is the strongest among the 5 kage.
    Except the manga didn't really say that at all. This has been covered too. Again, reading more carefully would save you time.

    You didn't read it... Itachi has never been shown to own Oro. All we have seen was a mere paralyzing genjutsu, which any person without sharingan could fall for.... I disagree that the numbers are meaningless, and I don't think your evidence has any ground on it.
    I read your post, which seemed to say quite clearly that Itachi was superior to Oro at Genjutsu. Are you seriously arguing that they were equals in it?

    Surely many of the things are over-exaggerated, when description of shinobi or jutsu are made, but this is just a way of talking. Saying Amaterasu is as hot as the sun, simply means, it is the "hottest" jutsu in Naruto. It's all about reading between the lines...
    This isn't reading between the lines, this is you flat out ignoring what was said, and substituting your own meaning to suit your argument. I might as well "read between your lines" and assume you just told us you like to eat shrimp off the floor. How disgusting. Just what sort of person are you. The floor isn't clean.

    Overall my take from your posts is that you need to read more carefully, and not "between the lines", as this broad brush approach leads to you being unable to respond to other peoples posts in a logical fashion.

    Also Kishi said in the databook that his ranking system is not comparable. If Oro has 5.0 is genjutsu it does not equal Itachis 5.0. This is not how the ranking system is made. The numbers describe a characters, specific ability within his own field, which can't always be compared.
    So people should not be using them to compare Hirzen to others. If one 5 doesn't equal another, then it's a meaningless metric.
     
         

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    Re: Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable

    This thread is ignorant and pointless.

    Sarutobi is the considered the greatest Hokage, because he was trained by Hashirama and Tobirama and they admitted he surpassed them (very early in Naruto this was told by other ninja speaking about Sarutobi), and then he trained people that went on to be called "Legendary Sannin", who then trained others that are noteable ninja.

    Based on his teachers and students (this includes those trained by his students) he is the best Hokage there'll ever will be.
     
         

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    Re: Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable

    Quote Originally Posted by ~Rerrando~ View Post
    This thread is ignorant and pointless.

    Sarutobi is the considered the greatest Hokage, because he was trained by Hashirama and Tobirama and they admitted he surpassed them (very early in Naruto this was told by other ninja speaking about Sarutobi), and then he trained people that went on to be called "Legendary Sannin", who then trained others that are noteable ninja.

    Based on his teachers and students (this includes those trained by his students) he is the best Hokage there'll ever will be.
    Link me to the page where they said this. You are as bad as the other Hirzen fans here, flat out making stuff up to support your agenda.
     
         

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    Re: Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable

    Quote Originally Posted by ItachiStyle View Post
    Oh, I think we've got alot of evidence at this point. Alot of it has been alluded to already. Madara even with only an EMS could own both Mu and a young Onoki simultaneously, despite "not trying". Even without the Rinnegan, it's pretty clear EMS Madara could own all 5 kages simultaneously, even with just his perfect Susanoo (which apparently Hashirama could stop), so the idea that we can't be sure he was stronger than Hirzen is pretty silly. I think it's pretty unclear if Hirzen could even stop the 9 Tails, let alone Madara (a guy who is not only stronger than the 9 tails, but can summon it to battle to fight with him). When the 9 Tails attacked Konoha Hirzen seemed to have no answer to it's tailed beast bomb except to stand there with an "Oh F#$@" expression, and wait for the 4th to bail him out. Madara is a guy who can destroy armies, and we're told flat out and repeatedly that Hashirama is in the same ball park. That's way outside anything Hirzen has shown or hinted at.
    Yeah you can't just rationalize, just how strong, Onoki was at the time, since we didn't see him fight. All we know, is that Mu looked the same, so he was probably at prime level. Madara with EMS was defeated in an instance by Gaara+Onoki+Naruto, I don't get your point. He couldn't stabilize perfect susanoo at that point in mid air, he needed rinnengan to do so. You are forgetting the most vital fact here.

    Madara has senju DNA, giving the unique combination senju+uchiha DNA, which enhances any person to an unbelievable extent. If you have Uchiha DNA alone, you still wont be on pair with an Uchiha. If you have senju DNA alone (ie Yamato), you will still be miles away from Hashirama. If you have both, something sick happens. You get the perfect combination of the cells, which the so6p had, enhancing your abilities to some extent.

    This alone should be enhancing Madaras jutsus in edo tensei. His huge Susanoo, I will say, it could not have been anywhere near that size, as he fought Hashirama, simply because, he did not have senju DNA. Also it would cost a lot of chakra to stabilize something like that. If it can destroy a mountain, nothing known in Hashiramas arsenal of jutsu, should be able to block it. Dodging is different tho, but even that seems unrealistic. In edo state he can just use full scale jutsu depleting his entire chakra arsenal in every jutsu. It is not even close to possible to compare it to his normal EMS state, which fought Hashi.

    Who says Madara didn't summon the kuybi to take out Mu and Onoki? Just to give one unlikely example, but with the knowledge given, you can't conclude much with that fight, except Madara didn't fight to his full strength.


    This just ignores what I said. Go back and read what I said. Oro didn't need a "better" jutsu, nor do I know of any better jutsu he has than Edo Tensei summoning the first 2 Hokages. He was winning, why would he need to try different jutsu?
    this is just pathetic to read, considering the outcome of the battle.... The one here, who doesn't remember the hiru vs oro fight must be you. What happened when Oro had lost his 2 pawns? Hiru grabbed enma, and jumped towards Oro. Basically Oro was trapped in his own mess, he couldn't escape. If you read the chapters, after Hiru defeats the 2 kages, you should notice that all Oro has left to offer is a poor snake hand, and Hiru uses Enma to take care of that. Oro being able to stab Hiru in the back with his sword, is simply because Hiru thought he could end the battle already, and Enma was not able to stop it due to the snake hand. So in the end, Oro did indeed need more jutsu, why didn't he pull out his 10,000 snakes or triple rashomon, when Hiru was leaping towards him. He already saw the effects of the jutsu, Hiru used to remove the 2 kages, and he was just at 1/3 of his original powers. He had sealed away the other 2/3.

    This is tiring, because you don't read other people's posts properly, and you make up stuff with no evidence. There is no evidence Oro was blinded by the darkness Genjutsu, for all we know it only blinds Hirzen, and everyone else can see. There is no indication of what you just claimed, it's just you theorising. That's not evidence. The 1st and 2nd weren't trying, so that fight is evidence of nothing. They didn't need hand seals anyway, because they both killed the Bushin's (notice all the blades sticking out of them?), they just didn't know of the death reaper seal, which enabled him to seal them unawares (not that it's fair to even say he caught the hokage unaware, as they lacked the ability to conrol their own bodies, and Oro was controlling them, using them to mess around, and was unconcerned at them getting damaged (as they were immune to damage). And in order to seal these (not trying) Edo's, the guy had to die himself. Not exactly a victory.
    Well I had the feeling, you knew your manga facts, so didn't put evidence, but sigh.. Then let me prove it:
    Here we see, when Oro first starts to use the 2 kages. Basically he needs a double hand seal to control them, thus he cannot take place in the fight as well (while using them):


    This is the first time he does it. Now look later, when the darkness is cleared:



    Oro still has that stance, and he is obviously surprised, about what has just happened. He has no idea that Hiruzen just defeated both former kages, since he has no idea about, what jutsu he just used / is about to use.

    This is all just a bunch of theorising that ignores clear evidence. I linked you to a thread on this which shoots your theory down. You are making stuff up and acting like it should be treated as evidence. You need to stop doing that.
    Hmm, no it doesn't. You proved nothing in that poor thread. You just said that Oro could summon triple rashomon, so he could use his arms. Damn what a thread... Please find and prove that Oro can summon snakes with his hands. I cannot explain the rashomon right now, need to look more into it, but I would guess that it was his drugs/medicine that allowed him to use his hands, and after using them just once, he was already feeling the after effects of his body rotting.
    That tatoo on his arm shows 2 snakes. Sasuke gained the very same symbol after absorbing Orochimaru. After Oro was removed from Sasuke, he hasn't summoned a single snake. You see my point? There isn't solid evidence, but neither is yours. Fact is the snake summons have something to do with that tatoo.


    Well, firstly there have been calculations done on this, he was without question younger, so you're wrong. Period. Plus, when Madara met Onoki the first time and looked a similar age, Hashirama was still Hokage, and hadn't fought Madara yet, or captured all the tailed beasts. By the time we see Hirzen in the Danzo flashback, Hashirama has been long dead, and the 2nd Hokage had been Hokage for years, and is about to die. Onoki is so old, the guy has physically shrunk and has constant back problems. Hirzen didn't display any similar physical signs of age, except that he'd lost some stamina. If you want, I can link you to some calculations done on this, it won't be hard to find, but it's pretty clear Onoki is older. Indeed, Hirzen is depicted as still having brown hair only 16 or 17 years ago during the death of Minato.
    Now you are just stating facts with no evidence. Fact is we don't know any specifics of the events back then. We don't know how far into the war nidaime died. We don't know how long Hashi lived after his fight with Madara. We don't know how much time it took to gather the tailed beasts, I could go on. No calculations can be made on this, so it's a pathetic statement. It's possible Onoki is older, as you mention physical problems compared to Hiruzen. But it may just be that Hiruzen was a lot better physically than Onoki. Onoki shows no skill in tajutsu, which Hiruzen was pretty good at. That would mean a lot. I say wait for the databook to clear it up, that would also make it easier to put time on those other events you mention.


    This is absurd. Characters lie in the manga all the time. Itachi is the clearest example (though there are many others). It's ridiculous for you to claim that anything a character says should be taken literally. There are so many examples that make a mockery of your argument, it should be unecessary to mention them. And, as I also pointed out, even if we ignored logic and took the remark literally, we have other remarks that directly contradict it (e.g. Kishi "says" only the 4th and Jiraiya could do the rasengan... so Hirzen clearly didn't know that technique...). Your argument is terrible.
    So according to your logic, we can't trust a dime of what is said in the manga, it could be a lie? Iruka would lie to his students? Going by your logic, we would have to categorize people in a trustworthy category, thus your entire thread is utter pointless. The character you can trust the least is Madara. Everything he said about Hashirama could be a lie.

    I never said literally. I don't know, how long you have been reading Naruto, however, with time you should learn, how to interpret and understand, how Kishi writes. Just like the Amaterasu example... I feel no reason to explain it, some teacher may tell you something useless about reading between the lines one day.. If you say "A person knows all techniques", it doesn't mean he can do the them all... Besides, even Kakashi can do the rasengan. I'm sure Hiruzen could do it, if he wanted to bother learning it...


    To paraphrase Madara; "You're going to beat me with your popularity? Power has nothing to do with popularity... it's an actual thing"
    Yeah that is Madaras definition, and the reason he wasn't made hokage...


    I read your post, which seemed to say quite clearly that Itachi was superior to Oro at Genjutsu. Are you seriously arguing that they were equals in it?
    As I said in the end, the databook doesn't mean that. Even if it did, take my example with Kisame.. Or take Lee, who has the same speed as Neji and Kiba, but when he uses the gates, surely he is faster. But this is tajutsu. So he improves other skills with tajutsu. Itachi can improve genjutsu with ninjutsu. Tsukuyomi is labelled as a ninjutsu in the databook. Just to mention the best example. But so is his crow/shurinken genjutsu a combination of.

    This isn't reading between the lines, this is you flat out ignoring what was said, and substituting your own meaning to suit your argument. I might as well "read between your lines" and assume you just told us you like to eat shrimp off the floor. How disgusting. Just what sort of person are you. The floor isn't clean.
    Rofl, you can say, I "substitute" my own meaning into it. But if you go look any manga, fairly tail, whatever, you will notice that it is possible to analyze, what you are reading. If you write something is as hot as the sun, clearly it isn't. It's a simple metaphor, but it sounds way better than saying it is very hot. Saying the Hokage is said to be the strongest among the 5 kages, doesn't make him/her able to beat any of them. What it means to be hokage, is different than power as you say, but if you do not understand that, just stop discussing this already. I already agreed that Hashirama has more power than Hiruzen. But I disagree that Hiruzen isn't notable in power... The fight against Oro isn't that bad.

    Overall my take from your posts is that you need to read more carefully, and not "between the lines", as this broad brush approach leads to you being unable to respond to other peoples posts in a logical fashion.
    If you don't "read between the lines", which btw means that you try to interpret and understand, what you just wrote, and not take it so literally all the time, especially cause tons of translations are waaay off, but the meaning will have a good chance coming out the same, when you try to understand it correctly.

    So people should not be using them to compare Hirzen to others. If one 5 doesn't equal another, then it's a meaningless metric.
    Yes you may say that. What you can use it to, is to look at an individual character, take what type of jutsu he knows / uses within a given field, and look at his skill within that field. Then you can say if he perfects the jutsu in his arsenal from that field or not.
    Again by understanding this correctly, you can actually compare it. You just need to be cautious. But most people doesn't compare it that way. Say if a fire user uses fire ninjutsu, and has a 5, he obviously masters, whatever type of fire ninjutsu, he specializes in. It doesn't describe the actual strength of the ninjutsu he uses. Take chidori for instance. You can master it with 4-5 in ninjutsu, but if you lack tajutsu, it is pointless. Same goes for stamina. If you lack stamina, you can't just carelessly use large scaled jutsu, thus being master in ninjusu, you still may not be able to use it, to its full extent in tough combat situations (more opponents).
     
         

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    Re: Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable

    Quote Originally Posted by thegame View Post
    Yeah you can't just rationalize, just how strong, Onoki was at the time, since we didn't see him fight. All we know, is that Mu looked the same, so he was probably at prime level.
    We don't know if Onoki was in his prime, but what we do know is that based on his experience fighting Madara Onoki drew the following conclusions about his strength:
    - Madara was scarily strong, to the point where he could believe almost anything of him. Indeed, Madara was so awesome, a young Onoki literally gave up the idea of beating him. And we're then told Madara was not even trying during this fight (because fighting them was like fighting "children"). The dude rocks up (alone) on the Hidden Stones home turf, punks their Kage and his next in line, and tells them from now on "you follow my orders". Yeh, I think we can get a good feeling about how far beyond these guys Madara is in his prime.

    Madara with EMS was defeated in an instance by Gaara+Onoki+Naruto, I don't get your point. He couldn't stabilize perfect susanoo at that point in mid air, he needed rinnengan to do so. You are forgetting the most vital fact here.
    1) Madara was not yet trying v.s Gaara, Onoki and Naruto, he was messing around. We know this because, aside from the fact that it's obvious, Madara tells us he isn't trying later on. Which prompts a disbelieving Onoki to ask "why did you go so easy on me back when we first fought, if you were this powerful" (remember, when they first fought, Madara had only EMS), to which Madara asks whether Onoki would fight seriously against kids. So no, that doesn't "count", because Madara wasn't trying (and once he was put in danger from not trying, he just tried a little harder, and kept doing that in the fight with Onoki and Co until finally he said "they are worthy Kage... ok, time to try").
    2) It's entirely made up for you to claim he couldn't use perfect Susanoo without the Rinnegan. Indeed, all the evidence seems the other way. Madara says "this time" the map won't change too much (implying he used it in the Hashirama fight, causing the creation of the valley of the end), Madara remarks he has used it before (which makes no sense if it is tied to the Rinnegan, as he was almost dead when he got the Rinnegan, and never fought anyone as he was in hiding). Remember also the reaction from Onoki when Madara uses it. He basically asks Madara (and I'm paraphrasing) "why didn't you use this kind of power when we first fought!", to which Madara tells him (again paraphrasing) "I wasn't trying when I fought you". Madara doesn't say "oh, I couldn't use this power back then". When Tsunade asks "did my grandfather really fight against this?", Madara replies "I told you, the only one who can stop me is Hashirama... but he's not in this world anymore", which implies very heavily that "yes, Hashirama really fought this level of power, and could still plausibly defeat Madara now if he were alive".

    If it can destroy a mountain, nothing known in Hashiramas arsenal of jutsu, should be able to block it. Dodging is different tho, but even that seems unrealistic. In edo state he can just use full scale jutsu depleting his entire chakra arsenal in every jutsu. It is not even close to possible to compare it to his normal EMS state, which fought Hashi.
    Not only is this pure speculation on your part (invented to support your theory), but I've addressed it above. And in my opening post. The author very much seems to be telling us that Hashirama could stop this sort of thing, which is why Madara says (paraphrasing) "only Hashirama could stop me now, but he's gone", or "if he were around, we'd have to redraw the maps even more", or Kabuto tells us "his power was so incredible, people thought it a fairy tale". That's pretty decisive, unlike your invented theory which exists only to support your agenda.

    Who says Madara didn't summon the kuybi to take out Mu and Onoki? Just to give one unlikely example, but with the knowledge given, you can't conclude much with that fight, except Madara didn't fight to his full strength.
    Well, we see no evidence of it whatever. In addition, see what I wrote above. Onoki got a good indication of Madara's power from that fight, and it was apparently enough to scare him pretty badly, even with only EMS. If Madara needed the fox to win then Onoki's attitude would be much less "Oh F#$@, Madara!!!" and much more "well, he's pretty hard to beat with the 9 Tails, but I reckon Muu and I could have taken him without the fox helping him".

    this is just pathetic to read, considering the outcome of the battle.... The one here, who doesn't remember the hiru vs oro fight must be you. What happened when Oro had lost his 2 pawns? Hiru grabbed enma, and jumped towards Oro. Basically Oro was trapped in his own mess, he couldn't escape.
    We see no evidence Oro tried to escape. Why would he, the guy could regenerate his body at will, and would have had no fear about Hirzen killing him, because he knew nothing about a class S jutsu that seals him (and which is invisible to the victim until it's too late). Not that this is relevant to the point made.

    So in the end, Oro did indeed need more jutsu, why didn't he pull out his 10,000 snakes or triple rashomon, when Hiru was leaping towards him. He already saw the effects of the jutsu, Hiru used to remove the 2 kages, and he was just at 1/3 of his original powers. He had sealed away the other 2/3.
    Well, from close quarters he might have not had time. I don't think it's a secret the author doesn't always make everyone act in the smartest way, though he does a good job overall. I certainly don't see what Triple Gates would have done (certainly wouldn't have blocked the reaper seal hand). It also woudln't have fit inside the barrier (nor would 10,000 snakes).

    Let's get back to the actual point. Are you seriously suggesting Hirzen could use techniques like the Flying Thunder God or Rasengan? No? Because if you're not, then we shouldn't put much weight on this "he could perform all techniques" angle you're pushing (and which is pretty unsupported in the manga).

    Well I had the feeling, you knew your manga facts, so didn't put evidence, but sigh.. Then let me prove it:
    Here we see, when Oro first starts to use the 2 kages. Basically he needs a double hand seal to control them, thus he cannot take place in the fight as well (while using them):
    Your argument that Oro couldn't fight properly while controlling the Hokage, and that he was limiting their actions, doesn't help the argument that this fight is some big thing for Hirzen.

    Oro still has that stance, and he is obviously surprised, about what has just happened. He has no idea that Hiruzen just defeated both former kages, since he has no idea about, what jutsu he just used / is about to use.
    Oro knows the Genjutsu has ended, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's because he was also blinded by the genjutsu, it may just be he can see it from the outside (in the same way that in bleach one can see the Darkness Bankai of Tosen from the outside). It's utterly unclear, which makes what you've said speculation, and inadmissable.

    Hmm, no it doesn't. You proved nothing in that poor thread. You just said that Oro could summon triple rashomon, so he could use his arms. Damn what a thread... Please find and prove that Oro can summon snakes with his hands. I cannot explain the rashomon right now, need to look more into it, but I would guess that it was his drugs/medicine that allowed him to use his hands, and after using them just once, he was already feeling the after effects of his body rotting.
    That tatoo on his arm shows 2 snakes. Sasuke gained the very same symbol after absorbing Orochimaru. After Oro was removed from Sasuke, he hasn't summoned a single snake. You see my point? There isn't solid evidence, but neither is yours. Fact is the snake summons have something to do with that tatoo.
    Go read the thread about Oro and reply there. This is a pointless distraction here, and I don't feel like repeating myself in two threads. You admit you can't explain the Rashomon... end discussion.

    So according to your logic, we can't trust a dime of what is said in the manga, it could be a lie? Iruka would lie to his students? Going by your logic, we would have to categorize people in a trustworthy category, thus your entire thread is utter pointless. The character you can trust the least is Madara. Everything he said about Hashirama could be a lie.
    Iruka doesn't even say that though. He lightheartedly says to the kids how the hokage is said to be the strongest, and the Hokage makes a light hearted remark in reply. Who the heck is Iruka to be able to comment seriously on such a thing? He's never even met most Kage, let alone is an expert on their skills. Let's remember, this is a world in which the leafs own ninja didn't really understand how strong Madara was, and even ask Dan "is Madara really so strong?"... "we're fighting him through the 5 kages though". This is a world in which the Shinobi of today don't believe the stories about how strong Hashi was, because it seems like a fairy tale. Iruka is in no position to really comment in this context, and we certainly shouldn't take his vague aside as gospel (he "was said" to be that strong? Just like Haku's jutsu "was said" to be unstoppable?). Madara on the other hand has alot of credibility. He actually fought Hashirama, and has no reason to like the guy, or to make remarks that diminish his own rep. Plus, some of what he says or does is seen in flashbacks... we see a flashback of him fighting Hashi with the fox (and apparently losing). We see a flashback of him getting pissed at someone mentioning Hashirama's name. We see him facing off with Hashi, with sweat dripping down his brow. We see him using techniques Hashi had, like summoning giant forrests of living trees, or wood dragons, telling us "Hashi used this on me", or which are recognised by Tsunade. This is the context we apply to people's comments. One context givs Madara's remarks credibility. The other makes Iruku's remarks pretty meaningless.

    I'm sure Hiruzen could do it, if he wanted to bother learning it...
    There's a big difference between knowing it, and "could have learnt it". If he didn't know all jutsu, then it shouldn't be used to prop him up.

    The rest has already been addressed so thoroughly it doesn't merit another reply. A 5 that isn't always a 5 can't be cited as a meaningful metric of measurement. End of discussion.
     
         
    Last edited by ItachiStyle; 01-23-2013 at 11:12 AM.

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    Re: Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable

    All of your claims are indeed valid, but it only confirms of what I knew already.

    The best Kage was however Danzou, purely for the genocide on the uchiha.
    All great leaders in the world have at least once done genocide.
     
         

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    Re: Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable

    OP you got pwned by EliteKakashi in this page on this post:

    http://narutobase.net/forums/showthr...=1#post9910233

    If you can't reply to him, then this thread is dead. Admit it, you hate by trying to bend logic to your liking and then you get pwned and do not respond.
     
         

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    Re: Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawker View Post
    OP you got pwned by EliteKakashi in this page on this post:

    http://narutobase.net/forums/showthr...=1#post9910233

    If you can't reply to him, then this thread is dead. Admit it, you hate by trying to bend logic to your liking and then you get pwned and do not respond.
    It's quite the reverse. Most of the points he raised had either already been covered in my opening post, or were entirely irrelevant to the actual thread. You (and he) would do well to actually read the posts I've made before making comments like this.
     
         

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    Re: Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable

    Quote Originally Posted by ItachiStyle View Post
    It's quite the reverse. Most of the points he raised had either already been covered in my opening post, or were entirely irrelevant to the actual thread. You (and he) would do well to actually read the posts I've made before making comments like this.
    No not the reverse, what the f*ck are you babbling about. Admit the fact that your logic has wholes in it.

    He pwned you about:

    -the databook (it is written by Kishi)
    -about "why didn't Hiruzen use all the jutsu he knows against Oro and edo Kages"

    you just chose to ignore that

    also you said this:
    "The second one is the constant claim that the 3rd Hokage was "the god of shinobi", "the most powerful Hokage", the most powerful Kage of his time", etc, etc. This claim has virtually no evidence for it, and the evidence that Hirzen was the strongest Hokage is very bad (especially compared to Hashirama."
    That's f*cking retarded. The claim itself is a proof since it's Kishimoto's manga and he wrote that. It was stated early in the manga and he wanted us to believe it 'cause..well maybe because it's true?! I don't see any evidence against it either. So what you are doing is just talking down a character for the good of your own views (which have no evidence whatsoever).


    You interpret the manga by your own ways...there's no hidden message. There's no hyborbolism. Otherwise we should interpret everything that has ever been stated in the manga as "hyborbolic messages". Some things we just have to assume they are true. Who cares about some fodder character Haku.
     
         

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    Re: Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable

     
         

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    Re: Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable

    There is no reason to keep discussing it, you don't provide solid proof either, we just interpret it differently, however, the only thing, which gets back at you, is according to you, Madara could use PS. I never said he couldn't, I just said I doubt he could use it in the size we saw against the kages. I think he could use it in Sasukes size at max (with EMS). Now he has rinnengan, and can empty his entire chakra pool to stabilize susanoo of that level. So it's a 10 fold stronger than what I would expect he used against Hashi. But then again, Madara could just be lying to Onoki. Using your logic view of the manga, rofl... So we can never reach anything with this, when you use that kind of understanding regarding Obito and Itachis lies....
     
         

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    Re: Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawker View Post
    No not the reverse, what the f*ck are you babbling about. Admit the fact that your logic has wholes in it.

    He pwned you about:

    -the databook (it is written by Kishi)
    This is just a strange point to bring up. From the very first post, I pointed out that the databook was not reliable. That has been pointed out many times in this thread, and Hirzen's own fans have admitted that at the very least you cannot take everything in it literally. For instance, one poster tried to argue that when the databook said Ameratsu was "as hot as the sun" we had to read between the lines, and just assume it was "a hot" jutsu. When I pointed out that the scores assigned to each character often did not make sense, in particular the example of Itachi and Oro having equal scores for genjutsu, posters responded to me that two 5's didn't necessarily equate to the same value. I pointed out that if you were going to ignore stuff in the databook when it suited you, then it was wasn't something you can cite as evidence.

    There is nothing confusing about this argument, except to you it seems. Hirzen fans often point to his high databook scores, and say "if his stamina was good still, he'd be the best!". Except that's clearly a non-argument if we can't take the scores at face value in the first place. Hirzen fans point to remarks about how awesome Hirzen is in the databook, except there are also patently ridiculous (and hyperbolic) remarks in the databook. If we can't believe that Ameratsu is "as hot as the sun", then we probably shouldn't have to take a remark that Hirzen was "the god of shinobi" literally either.

    Whether Kishi collaborates on writing it is really irrelevant. It's an unreliable source, so you can't cite it.

    -about "why didn't Hiruzen use all the jutsu he knows against Oro and edo Kages"
    Again, this was responded to in multiple posts. It's also silly for you to mention this, because the guy I was responding to admits he does not think Hirzen knew all jutsu in the leaf, merely that "yeh, if he'd put his mind to it, he could have learnt it". That sort of claim does little to strengthen Hirzen's argument.

    It's obvious you are not reading people's posts carefully, and missing the arguments people are making, and should not be encouraged. Your dismissal of Haku as "some fodder ninja" completely misses the point. If we can't believe what Kishi wrote about Haku, we can't just take some off the cuff light hearted remark Kishi had Iruka make seriously either.

    You need to look at all the evidence, with context, and weigh it up. The evidence for Hashirama being the strongest Hokage is extremely good. The evidence for Hirzen being the strongest Ho/kage is virtually non-existent, and even the argument that he was a notably strong kage is pretty doubtful. So far he was maybe 3rd or 4th best among Hokage's alone, not counting numerous other notable Kage, and numerous kage level ninja who have given us alot more reason to rank them over Hirzen. The guy wouldn't make my top 20 ninja to be honest.
     
         
    Last edited by ItachiStyle; 01-23-2013 at 11:00 PM.

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    Re: Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable

    Quote Originally Posted by ItachiStyle View Post
    Link me to the page where they said this. You are as bad as the other Hirzen fans here, flat out making stuff up to support your agenda.

    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/094/13

    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/121/3

    http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Hiruzen_Sarutobi

    Never try to down talk me until after I prove that I can't support my statements.
    By the way you're spelling his name wrong, it Hiruzen!
     
         

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    Re: Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable

    if he isn't notable why did they carve his face into a mountain? that seems like a pretty big 'hey lets remember this guy'
     
         

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