Yata Mirror Grossly Underated- HardCounter to Dust Release

[Owarij]

^ anything space time related falls under astral.. google its definition

[Akatsuki wise guy]

Nice thread as always + rep.

[TouchMyMangos]

jinton, meteor, kamui, tbb explosion, chibaku tensei, perfect susanoo >>> yata mirror

[Draphsin]

^ anything space time related falls under astral.. google its definition

Narutopedia definition:

Space–Time Ninjutsu (時空間忍術, Jikūkan Ninjutsu; Literally meaning "Time–Space Ninja Techniques")[1] are techniques that allow the users to manipulate the space–time continuum. By manipulating a specific point of space, the user can warp anything targeted into a dimensional void and teleport it to another location instantaneously. Minato Namikaze, Obito Uchiha, and Tobirama Senju are all noted as skilled users of space–time ninjutsu.

Wiki Definition:

In physics, spacetime (also space–time, space time or space–time continuum) is any mathematical model that combines space and time into a single continuum. Spacetime is usually interpreted with space as existing in three dimensions and time playing the role of a fourth dimension that is of a different sort from the spatial dimensions.

Didnt know which one you would hold as evidence but neither definitions mention anything about s/t being "astral"

btw i couldnt find a good definition of the word astral so please if you have one you can show it to me

[Lady Luck]

Narutopedia definition:

Space–Time Ninjutsu (時空間忍術, Jikūkan Ninjutsu; Literally meaning "Time–Space Ninja Techniques")[1] are techniques that allow the users to manipulate the space–time continuum. By manipulating a specific point of space, the user can warp anything targeted into a dimensional void and teleport it to another location instantaneously. Minato Namikaze, Obito Uchiha, and Tobirama Senju are all noted as skilled users of space–time ninjutsu.

Wiki Definition:

In physics, spacetime (also space–time, space time or space–time continuum) is any mathematical model that combines space and time into a single continuum. Spacetime is usually interpreted with space as existing in three dimensions and time playing the role of a fourth dimension that is of a different sort from the spatial dimensions.

Didnt know which one you would hold as evidence but neither definitions mention anything about s/t being "astral"

Wiki states a fact.

narutopedia is entirely fan made.

[Draphsin]

Wiki states a fact.

narutopedia is entirely fan made.

thats besides the point, neither definitions mention anything about spacetime being "astral"

[Owarij]

Narutopedia definition:

Space–Time Ninjutsu (時空間忍術, Jikūkan Ninjutsu; Literally meaning "Time–Space Ninja Techniques")[1] are techniques that allow the users to manipulate the space–time continuum. By manipulating a specific point of space, the user can warp anything targeted into a dimensional void and teleport it to another location instantaneously. Minato Namikaze, Obito Uchiha, and Tobirama Senju are all noted as skilled users of space–time ninjutsu.

Wiki Definition:

In physics, spacetime (also space–time, space time or space–time continuum) is any mathematical model that combines space and time into a single continuum. Spacetime is usually interpreted with space as existing in three dimensions and time playing the role of a fourth dimension that is of a different sort from the spatial dimensions.

Didnt know which one you would hold as evidence but neither definitions mention anything about s/t being "astral"

btw i couldnt find a good definition of the word astral so please if you have one you can show it to me

here's a few

adj. Having or carrying the characteristics of the astral plane. n. A frequency of time and space beyond the physical yet below the menta

A dimension of reality that is one level above the mundane level. Also used to mean spiritual or metaphysical.
home.earthlink.net/~wilhelmina_d/bos/dictionary.html

(adj) Pertaining to psychic phenomena, that is, phenomena on the astral plane.

designating or of a universal substance or dimension existing just beyond normal human perception.

Get it yet? its an attack that isn't physical, or doesn't have a physical form... Just like Yatamirror.... Theoretically the only thing that would be capable of blocking a spiritual attack, is a spiritual defence......

, the user can warp anything targeted into a dimensional void

Narutopedia's definiton of sT

Once the attack is dimension related.. once you EXCEED the normal human plane, you are entering astral territory

[Draphsin]

Get it yet? its an attack that isn't physical, or doesn't have a physical form... Just like Yatamirror.... Theoretically the only thing that would be capable of blocking a spiritual attack, is a spiritual defence......

Narutopedia's definiton of sT

Once the attack is dimension related.. once you EXCEED the normal human plane, you are entering astral territory

lol youre going on about some next level stuff...the only plane and i mean the only plane that mentions space and time is the physical plane so yeah maybe youre right about the dimension. obito's dimension could be an astral plane but space and time only exist in the physical plane and s/t is the manipulation of space and time so the susanoo itself will be physically manipulated and sent to the astral plane. That doesnt make it an astral attack.

Edit: heres the definition of planes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plane_(esotericism)

[Delano The Great]

[QUOTE=KingHashirama;9976023]It can't..... Unless it turns on that side, at the right time..... Thats what happened in the pics you showed. Yata doesn't have a 360 protection zone.[/QUOTE

its not like itachi wouldnt know someone was behind him
Itachi is top 5 like it or not bro

[Owarij]

lol youre going on about some next level stuff...the only plane and i mean the only plane that mentions space and time is the physical plane so yeah maybe youre right about the dimension. obito's dimension could be an astral plane but space and time only exist in the physical plane and s/t is the manipulation of space and time so the susanoo itself will be physically manipulated and sent to the astral plane. That doesnt make it an astral attack.

Edit: heres the definition of planes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plane_(esotericism)

You don't get it,
KAMUI , the attack itself, the little black hole like attack , Is NOT physical in any way..

The definition of spiritual that applies to kamui?

]Lacking material body or form or substance; "spiritual beings"; "the vital transcendental soul belonging to the spiritual realm"

KAMUI is a spiritual attack.. and YATA MIRROR is a spiritual shield..Both have NO physical form, what so ever

Do you get where i'm going with this?

according to the databook, yata mirror is protected from all following forms of attack.. PHYSICAL, MATERIAL, ASTRAL(aka spiritual) , and Ninjutsu

[khaydz5]

Wiki states a fact.

narutopedia is entirely fan made.

wiki, meaning that anyone can edit any unprotected page and improve articles immediately for all readers.

both are technically fan made.

You don't get it,
KAMUI , the attack itself, the little black hole like attack , Is NOT physical in any way..

The definition of spiritual that applies to kamui?



KAMUI is a spiritual attack.. and YATA MIRROR is a spiritual shield..Both have NO physical form, what so ever

Do you get where i'm going with this?

kamui is a spiritual attack?lol thats funny

[Owarij]

kamui is a spiritual attack?lol thats funny

You're thinking of another meaning of spiritual ,aka relating to religion, the databook definition is something that has no physical form, possibly existing between two realms

[AngryRock]

Susano'o is able to phase through the ground. But that isn't the point. How is Itachi going to get under the ground amidst his attack? Also Susano'o typically has to be either in skeletal form (without the flesh) or a higher iteration in order to utilize the Mirror/Sword (to hold it). Madara was only able to phase under the ground due to the usage of the Wood Clone and the fact that his Susano's arm was only present, not the entire or partial manifestation like Madara's was when he used it against Tsunade (only the arm/rib cage was used).

You're also overlooking the main element that made Wood Clone so deadly - its unpredictability. Remember, Madara said only he was able to anticipate it. Would Itachi know to counter from under the ground? Would Itachi be able to detect it? Is Itachi's Susano'o able to even use the Yata Mirror while being underground?

I don't think it's very much of a toss up analyzing the mechanics of the respective techniques--in fact, if anything the odds are pretty much skewed in favor of Wood Clone.

That is simply untrue. Why would Orochimaru want the legendary weapons if you need Susanoo to wield them?

[Owarij]

That is simply untrue. Why would Orochimaru want the legendary weapons if you need Susanoo to wield them?

He doesn't need susanno to wield them, they existed before madara who had the first ms...
there are legends of it and people deny their existence. As I stated, they have no true form, which is why the shield is seen becoming many different forms

[Draphsin]

You're thinking of another meaning of spiritual ,aka relating to religion, the databook definition is something that has no physical form, possibly existing between two realms

It physically(and i say this term loosely) manipulates the shape of the target. You dont get it, yata mirror would be physically distorted, think of kamui like a sealing jutsu. Youre right kamui isnt a physical attack, its something completely different that cant even be quantified as "physical" or "spiritual" or even "astral".

[Owarij]

It physically(and i say this term loosely) manipulates the shape of the target. You dont get it, yata mirror would be physically distorted, think of kamui like a sealing jutsu. Youre right kamui isnt a physical attack, its something completely different that cant even be quantified as "physical" or "spiritual" or even "astral".

Urm no.. its not something greater, there is nothing greater, every attack falls under a particular category. Kamui and gedo mazo's soul dragon both do not exist simply in a physical state.... Once again, you would need something that exists on the same level as those formentioned jutsu, to counter them... which is exactly what the mirror is ... Kamui won't "distort" the mirror as the mirror is capable of producing attributes or characteristics to completely render the incoming ability useless...

[Forget Me Not]

That is simply untrue. Why would Orochimaru want the legendary weapons if you need Susanoo to wield them?

Did you even understand my post? You're taking it out of context. I never said it's necessary for Susano to hold them. I'm saying when Itachi uses those items he uses Susano as his medium.

In the scenario of OP's argument Itachi is using Susano. Itachi has always been seen using Susano with the legendary weapons.

And Itachi not using Susano to wield these legendary weapons makes him far more vulnerable than with Susano, might I add. I hope you realize Itachi uses them with his Susano for a reason - it's more advantageous.

Stop trying to push an event that never happened - Itachi hasn't used these weapons without Susano so why would any battle instance have Itachi using the weapons without using Susano as well?

[fastrthnwind]

OK Kamui is not SPIRITUAL in any way because it is not an attack that holds ANY form, either physical or spiritual. It is a warp in reality which binds the spiritual and physical existence.

I just googled astral

astral:
1.Of, connected with, or resembling the stars: "astral navigation".
2.Of or relating to a supposed nonphysical realm of existence in which the physical human body is said to have a counterpart.

It states that it is of the nonphysical realm of existance and is said that it is the couterpart of the human body.

A perfect example of an something that is astral is Ino's mind control switch and Dan's Ghost transformation technique.

Kamui is above even that because it can essentially warp its existence through the space/time continuum. Only another reality warping jutsu can stop Kamui.

[Owarij]

OK Kamui is not SPIRITUAL in any way because it is not an attack that holds ANY form,

You just contradicted your entire post

the fact that it isn't an attack that holds and form, labels it spirtual, you should google the definition of what spiritual is

Lacking material body or form or substance

Once kamui isn't TANGIBLE, it HAS to be spiritual, as there is nothing else ...

[Draphsin]

Urm no.. its not something greater, there is nothing greater, every attack falls under a particular category. Kamui and gedo mazo's soul dragon both do not exist simply in a physical state.... Once again, you would need something that exists on the same level as those formentioned jutsu, to counter them... which is exactly what the mirror is ... Kamui won't "distort" the mirror as the mirror is capable of producing attributes or characteristics to completely render the incoming ability useless...

its not an incomming projectile. it appears where the users line of sight is and you havent convinced me with those extremely vague definitions and even then, it only mentions space and time on 1 plane. That means that kamui cant be astral because for it to work you need to manipulate properties of the physical world. What makes it greater than the soul dragon is that it manipulates physical properties and spiritual properties

[fastrthnwind]

You just contradicted your entire post

the fact that it isn't an attack that holds and form, labels it spirtual, you should google the definition of what spiritual is


Once kamui isn't TANGIBLE, it HAS to be spiritual, as there is nothing else ...

Your problem is that you think that there is only physical and spiritual attacks. Well, there is more to it than that. Kamui manipulates s/t itself, which both the Spiritual and the Physical exist in. Its in another class of its own simply because it can alter the existance of anything within its defined barrier.

Here is the level of attacks


SPACE/TIME - This is the next highest level that is neither perceivable through physical or spiritual means.
^
SPIRITUAL - This is a level that is out of human perception, but is still in existence in the universe at a set place and time
^
PHYSICAL - Basic level that humans can perceive with their senses

The only level beyond that would be anything that is Omnipresent, meaning that they exist in ALL levels of reality even beyond our own. That would the level of any DEITY or GODS if they existed.

[Owarij]

its not an incomming projectile. it appears where the users line of sight is and you havent convinced me with those extremely vague definitions and even then, it only mentions space and time on 1 plane. That means that kamui cant be astral because for it to work you need to manipulate properties of the physical world. What makes it greater than the soul dragon is that it manipulates physical properties

You're crossing borders..ofc in the NARUTO manga definitions may vary..

Totsuka and Yata mirror as stated by kishi are SPIRITUAL weapons, and yet they can still make contact with PHYSICAL things..
so your point in saying that just because kamui can come in contact with the physical world is moot... If because of that you consider Kamui a greater thing
then the two items are also on the same level

Oh and I uploaded a scan showing kamui basically travelling to the missle sent at chouji

Your problem is that you think that there is only physical and spiritual attacks. Well, there is more to it than that. Kamui manipulates s/t itself, which both the Spiritual and the Physical exist in. Its in another class of its own simply because it can alter the existance of anything within its defined barrier.

Read the definition of astral...even S/T jutsu or jutsu relating to other planes and dimensions would lose meaning according to the databook


and its funny, Kamui said in the databook, when translated means "Power of THE Gods" meaning its is the only or one of the only if i'm missing , jutsu that says its a godly power... ofc this is a hyperbole

but whats funny is that in Yata mirrors description , "In the Face of a God's power, all attacks lose their meaning"

[DeViliShChild]

Completely agree

[Draphsin]

You're crossing borders..ofc in the NARUTO manga definitions may vary..

Totsuka and Yata mirror as stated by kishi are SPIRITUAL weapons, and yet they can still make contact with PHYSICAL things..
so your point in saying that just because kamui can come in contact with the physical world is moot... If because of that you consider Kamui a greater thing
then the two items are also on the same level

Oh and I uploaded a scan showing kamui basically travelling to the missle sent at chouji



Read the definition of astral...even S/T jutsu or jutsu relating to other planes and dimensions would lose meaning according to the databook


and its funny, Kamui said in the databook, when translated means "Power of THE Gods" meaning its is the only or one of the only if i'm missing , jutsu that says its a godly power... ofc this is a hyperbole

but whats funny is that in Yata mirrors description , "In the Face of a God's power, all attacks lose their meaning"

This jutsu uses 2 planes, it manipulates the physical shape and then sends it to a spiritual realm. It's 2 forms of attack 1

[Owarij]

This jutsu uses 2 planes, it manipulates the physical shape and then sends it to a spiritual realm. It's 2 types of attack in 1

Once again, kamui isn't physical, just like totsuka isn't phyiscal... they can still affect physical things.. that's how it is in naruto... Its one attack, which is a spiritual attack...its an attack above a basic physical/material existence...Just as yata mirror is a defense above a physical/material existence

Not two things in one.. And even if it WAS... the description of yatta mirror states it could have as many attributes changed in order to defend the incoming attack..