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  1. #251
    Fastr than You fastrthnwind's Avatar
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    Re: Yata Mirror Grossly Underated- HardCounter to Dust Release

    Quote Originally Posted by Owarij View Post
    You're crossing borders..ofc in the NARUTO manga definitions may vary..

    Totsuka and Yata mirror as stated by kishi are SPIRITUAL weapons, and yet they can still make contact with PHYSICAL things..
    so your point in saying that just because kamui can come in contact with the physical world is moot... If because of that you consider Kamui a greater thing
    then the two items are also on the same level

    Oh and I uploaded a scan showing kamui basically travelling to the missle sent at chouji



    Read the definition of astral...even S/T jutsu or jutsu relating to other planes and dimensions would lose meaning according to the databook


    and its funny, Kamui said in the databook, when translated means "Power of THE Gods" meaning its is the only or one of the only if i'm missing , jutsu that says its a godly power... ofc this is a hyperbole

    but whats funny is that in Yata mirrors description , "In the Face of a God's power, all attacks lose their meaning"
    I already did read and posted the definition of astral. Astral beings are still not on the same plane of existance as anything that is physical, or percievable through the 5 senses, but they are present in another form of existence.

    Kamui has the ability to warp ALL existence because it warps Space/Time, which is something that physical and spiritual beings do not exist outside of. There is always a set point in time and space where anything physical or spiritual resides. Anything that can control that time and space has the definition of GODS power simply because they cannot do anything to stop it due to it being out of their perceivable control

    Yata Mirror was given the same description because it could defend against anything of the spiritual nature as well as the physical, but the yata miror itself still exists in one set point in time and space, meaning that it, like any other spiritual object is vulnerable to anything that has the power to control Space/Time, like Kamui can.
     
         

  2. #252
    第五生まれ Draphsin's Avatar
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    Re: Yata Mirror Grossly Underated- HardCounter to Dust Release

    Quote Originally Posted by fastrthnwind View Post
    I already did read and posted the definition of astral. Astral beings are still not on the same plane of existance as anything that is physical, or percievable through the 5 senses, but they are present in another form of existence.

    Kamui has the ability to warp ALL existence because it warps Space/Time, which is something that physical and spiritual beings do not exist outside of. There is always a set point in time and space where anything physical or spiritual resides. Anything that can control that time and space has the definition of GODS power simply because they cannot do anything to stop it due to it being out of their perceivable control

    Yata Mirror was given the same description because it could defend against anything of the spiritual nature as well as the physical, but the yata miror itself still exists in one set point in time and space, meaning that it, like any other spiritual object is vulnerable to anything that has the power to control Space/Time, like Kamui can.
    Ill let you take over im tired of debating with him + rep for seeing clearly
     
         

  3. #253
    Fastr than You fastrthnwind's Avatar
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    Re: Yata Mirror Grossly Underated- HardCounter to Dust Release

    Quote Originally Posted by Draphsin View Post
    Ill let you take over im tired of debating with him + rep for seeing clearly
    No problem. Thanks for holding out for me until now
     
         

  4. #254
    終 充琉寿 Owarij's Avatar
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    Re: Yata Mirror Grossly Underated- HardCounter to Dust Release

    Kamui has the ability to warp ALL existence because it warps Space/Time, which is something that physical and spiritual beings do not exist outside o
    This I disagree with


    I 100% know you're not going to argue that kamui can carry the Shiku Fujin Shinigami into another place..Or no different than saying kamui would teleport a Ghost into the dimension

    Kamui may be able to affect space and time and the phyiscal reality, but not the spiritual

    The death god , is an invisible spiritual entity ... not bound by physical laws.. Saying kamui can send it away, is basically the same as saying it can teleport the mirror



    According to the db, the user basically sends their chakra at a location , and in that location, a barrier appears which pulls the target in..
    The jutsu itself is a space time jutsu, and space and time are woven together by fabric aka matter aka material.. THIS is the reason it can affect physical things..

    Yata mirror has ELEMENTS and other properties imbued into it, which once again is a physical thing, and because of this it can defend against elemental attacks etc..

    SPIRITUAL entities cannot be affected
     
         
    Last edited by Owarij; 01-23-2013 at 04:15 PM.

  5. #255
    Fastr than You fastrthnwind's Avatar
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    Re: Yata Mirror Grossly Underated- HardCounter to Dust Release

    Quote Originally Posted by Owarij View Post
    This I disagree with


    I 100% know you're not going to argue that kamui can carry the Shiku Fujin Shinigami into another place..Or no different than saying kamui would teleport a Ghost into the dimension

    Kamui may be able to affect space and time and the phyiscal reality, but not the spiritual

    The death god , is an invisible spiritual entity ... not bound by physical laws.. Saying kamui can send it away, is basically the same as saying it can teleport the mirror



    According to the db, the user basically sends their chakra at a location , and in that location, a barrier appears which pulls the target in..
    The jutsu itself is a space time jutsu, and space and time are woven together by fabric aka matter aka material.. THIS is the reason it can affect physical things..

    Yata mirror has ELEMENTS and other properties imbued into it, which once again is a physical thing, and because of this it can defend against elemental attacks etc..

    SPIRITUAL entities cannot be affected
    OK the shinigami is a GOD who exists outside of even Space and Time. Kakashi wont be able to Kamui a GOD because a GOD is OMNIPRESENT, or lives on all planes of existence outside of the SPACE/TIME of the universe. It is also considered SPIRITUAL because it is not perceivable through any PHYSICAL means, yet has a FORM that it can take on inside of the S/T realm.

    Yata mirror is always in existence in some way, shape, or form in the universe. So it is vulnerable to anything that can control that place in time that it exists, like Kamui.

    Kamui does not require the user to send their chakra at a location. Its not even hinted at at all in the DB. It only requires the person to look "beyond" the object or being to Kamui and use the chakra to increase the field of the warp.

    SPIRITUAL entities cannot be affected by PHYSICAL means. Only through another spiritual entity, or higher level entity that can affect its very existance such as a S/T user, or a GOD.
     
         

  6. #256
    終 充琉寿 Owarij's Avatar
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    Re: Yata Mirror Grossly Underated- HardCounter to Dust Release

    OK the shinigami is a GOD who exists outside of even Space and Time

    Mate.. now you're grasping at straws.. Regardless of being a "god" or not.. its a spiritual entity, which puts your argument in shambles... You argued that kamui would be able to send a spiritual entity into its realm..

    You stated kamui is BEYOND just a simple spiritual attack, and that it would be able to send any spiritual or physical thing over
    Once again, Kamui wouldn't be able to do that, as it only manipulates SPACE/TIME , which is STILL woven together with fabric.... such a thing wont affect something BEYOND that

    Databook said that Yata mirror would defend even against a GOD'S attack..whether or not a god is omni present or not..

    PS- Noone said the death god is a omnipresent allpowerful being like the more popular christian God..
    A god just means
    A superhuman being
    or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity
    Just like long time ago people believed there was a sun god, water god
    some Japanese believe in the Death god aka Shinigami, responsible for deaths
     
         
    Last edited by Owarij; 01-23-2013 at 04:38 PM.

  7. #257
    Fastr than You fastrthnwind's Avatar
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    Re: Yata Mirror Grossly Underated- HardCounter to Dust Release

    Quote Originally Posted by Owarij View Post

    Mate.. now you're grasping at straws.. Regardless of being a "god" or not.. its a spiritual entity, which puts your argument in shambles... You argued that kamui would be able to send a spiritual entity into its realm..

    You stated kamui is BEYOND just a simple spiritual attack, and that it would be able to send any spiritual or physical thing over
    Once again, Kamui wouldn't be able to do that, as it only manipulates SPACE/TIME , which is STILL woven together with fabric.... such a thing wont affect something BEYOND that
    Ive never grasped at straws. I already defined the level of abilities earlier

    it went something like this

    GODS/DEITIES - Shinigami/GOD
    ^
    SPACE/TIME - Kamui
    ^
    SPIRITUAL - Yata Mirror
    ^
    PHYSICAL - Humans

    Something on one level can affect anything below it, but nothing above it.

    Did you not read what I mentioned earlier?

    OK the shinigami is a GOD who exists outside of even Space and Time. Kakashi wont be able to Kamui a GOD because a GOD is OMNIPRESENT, or lives on all planes of existence outside of the SPACE/TIME of the universe. It is also considered SPIRITUAL because it is not perceivable through any PHYSICAL means, yet has a FORM that it can take on inside of the S/T realm.
    The shinigami is spiritual only when inside the confines of the universe, which only happens when someone summons him from the physical world from its omnipresent existance outside of the S/T barriers of the universe.


    S/T is not woven to gether with actual fabric. Thats just something to help humans grasp how Space and Time are related and work together to create our universe, which physical and spiritual entities exist in. Only GODS or jutsu that can control S/T are above that level.
     
         

  8. #258
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    Re: Yata Mirror Grossly Underated- HardCounter to Dust Release

    Your exaggerating it a lot it's just a retard shield and sword everything can defend against Those weak attacks of sasuke stuff gets exaggerated by time.if that thing was that Op itachi couldn't have used and shaped it that Easly if something is that op no one should be able to use it without being a jinchuuriki and using 2 of it in single time plus susanoo yeah my ass dumbass thread.And itachi doesn't have that much chakra compared to kisames Karin proved that.And kisames chakra is near to 1 bijuus but not higher then it.So those 2 spiritual things are exaggerated a lot I think they are useless.
     
         
    Last edited by ahmetm; 01-23-2013 at 05:13 PM.

  9. #259
    終 充琉寿 Owarij's Avatar
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    Re: Yata Mirror Grossly Underated- HardCounter to Dust Release

    ^Once again,nowhere in the manga has it stated that the shinigami is an omnipresent god...all we were told is that he it is simply responsible for the souls of people caught in its grasp..

    You're assuming that this thing is omni present..
    The facts we do know is that it isn't tangible, and it is a SPIRITUAL thing......It would be completely unaffected by kamui
    Though it is spiritual,it can make contact with both physical and spiritual things, just like the two spiritual weapons...

    As I said, saying kamui would affect yata, is just like saying kamui would affect the death god, or that it would affect a GHOST..
    or that it would affect dan's spirit when he uses his jutsu..

    The shinigami has his own realm where the souls are stored... just like inside totsuka there is its own realm where sealed souls etc are stored


    Your exaggerating it a lot it's just a retard shield and sword everything can defend against Those weak attacks of sasuke stuff gets exaggerated by time.if that thing was that Op itachi couldn't have used and shaped it that Easly if something is that op no one should be able to use it without being a jinchuuriki and using 2 of it in single time yeah my ass dumbass thread
    .
    Didn't understand one thing you said
     
         

  10. #260
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    Re: Yata Mirror Grossly Underated- HardCounter to Dust Release

    Quote Originally Posted by Owarij View Post
    ^Once again,nowhere in the manga has it stated that the shinigami is an omnipresent god...all we were told is that he it is simply responsible for the souls of people caught in its grasp..

    You're assuming that this thing is omni present..
    The facts we do know is that it isn't tangible, and it is a SPIRITUAL thing......It would be completely unaffected by kamui
    Though it is spiritual,it can make contact with both physical and spiritual things, just like the two spiritual weapons...

    As I said, saying kamui would affect yata, is just like saying kamui would affect the death god, or that it would affect a GHOST..
    or that it would affect dan's spirit when he uses his jutsu..

    The shinigami has his own realm where the souls are stored... just like inside totsuka there is its own realm where sealed souls etc are stored


    .
    Didn't understand one thing you said
    What I say is if that thing is that op itachi wouldn't be able to use 2 of it in same time with susanoo he has Lower chakra then kisame so there is no goddamn way that thing is strong.
     
         

  11. #261
    Fastr than You fastrthnwind's Avatar
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    Re: Yata Mirror Grossly Underated- HardCounter to Dust Release

    Quote Originally Posted by Owarij View Post
    ^Once again,nowhere in the manga has it stated that the shinigami is an omnipresent god...all we were told is that he it is simply responsible for the souls of people caught in its grasp..

    You're assuming that this thing is omni present..
    The facts we do know is that it isn't tangible, and it is a SPIRITUAL thing......It would be completely unaffected by kamui
    Though it is spiritual,it can make contact with both physical and spiritual things, just like the two spiritual weapons...

    As I said, saying kamui would affect yata, is just like saying kamui would affect the death god, or that it would affect a GHOST..
    or that it would affect dan's spirit when he uses his jutsu..

    The shinigami has his own realm where the souls are stored... just like inside totsuka there is its own realm where sealed souls etc are stored

    OK what is the definition/translation of shinigami?

    The GOD of DEATH.

    It is spiritual in this realm of the physical and can make contact with physical and spiritual things when in this realm, but when it's not, it is an omnipresent GOD of DEATH.
     
         

  12. #262
    終 充琉寿 Owarij's Avatar
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    Re: Yata Mirror Grossly Underated- HardCounter to Dust Release

    What I say is if that thing is that op itachi wouldn't be able to use 2 of it in same time with susanoo he has Lower chakra then kisame so there is no goddamn way that thing is strong.
    Who ever said the weapons take chakra? From yata mirrors description it has its own chakra stored in it.. all 5 elements to be exact
    OK what is the definition/translation of shinigami?

    The GOD of DEATH.

    It is spiritual in this realm of the physical and can make contact with physical and spiritual things when in this realm, but when it's not, it is an omnipresent GOD of DEATH.

    But NOONE , literally not in the databook said that it was an OMNI present god of death.. ONLY that its responsible for the POOR souls caught in the technique..

    All we know is that its a spiritual ability that can be called upon and used ......You're thinking that a god HAS to be all powerful or omnipotent.. But that my friend is far from through.. anything with power of something, that is being worshipped, or has been praised is a God

    shiki fujin holds power of death and thus got that title.. infact , Minato would have been the one to NAME the technique that.... there is literally nothing in the manga saying that it actually IS a god..or even omnipresent at that...

    kamui can alter space and time yes, it can take physical things away into its other astral reality, yes,
    But can spiritual items like yatamirror, ghosts, dan's soul, shiki fujin , pein's astral projections be affected by it? Not in my opinion..entirely different ball game... these things aren't physical or Material AT ALL... no form, just like kamui.. l.... which means they are possibly existing on two planes at once..

    And just like Obito uses kamui on himself, and thus CAN exist on either plane.. these things operate beyond that, as they can make contact with things on the physical plane, but things on the physical plane can't make contact with them
     
         
    Last edited by Owarij; 01-23-2013 at 06:10 PM.

  13. #263
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    Re: Yata Mirror Grossly Underated- HardCounter to Dust Release

    Quote Originally Posted by Owarij View Post
    Who ever said the weapons take chakra? From yata mirrors description it has its own chakra stored in it.. all 5 elements to be exact

    But NOONE , literally not in the databook said that it was an OMNI present god of death.. ONLY that its responsible for the POOR souls caught in the technique..

    All we know is that its a spiritual ability that can be called upon and used ......You're thinking that a god HAS to be all powerful or omnipotent.. But that my friend is far from through.. anything with power of something, that is being worshipped, or has been praised is a God

    shiki fujin holds power of death and thus got that title.. infact , Minato would have been the one to NAME the technique that.... there is literally nothing in the manga saying that it actually IS a god..or even omnipresent at that...

    kamui can alter space and time yes, it can take physical things away into its other astral reality, yes,
    But can spiritual items like yatamirror, ghosts, dan's soul, shiki fujin , pein's astral projections be affected by it? Not in my opinion..entirely different ball game... these things aren't physical or Material AT ALL... no form, just like kamui.. l.... which means they are possibly existing on two planes at once..
    Haha you made me laugh there if it has 5 natures in it uses chakra you high or something?it has nature transformation stored it in not chakra.You waste chakra for it with whenever you use nature transformation you lose chakra it's that easy just like the fan tenten used it had all nature transformations in it but was about to kill tenten when she used it
     
         

  14. #264
    第五生まれ Draphsin's Avatar
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    Re: Yata Mirror Grossly Underated- HardCounter to Dust Release

    Quote Originally Posted by Owarij View Post
    Who ever said the weapons take chakra? From yata mirrors description it has its own chakra stored in it.. all 5 elements to be exact

    But NOONE , literally not in the databook said that it was an OMNI present god of death.. ONLY that its responsible for the POOR souls caught in the technique..

    All we know is that its a spiritual ability that can be called upon and used ......You're thinking that a god HAS to be all powerful or omnipotent.. But that my friend is far from through.. anything with power of something, that is being worshipped, or has been praised is a God

    shiki fujin holds power of death and thus got that title.. infact , Minato would have been the one to NAME the technique that.... there is literally nothing in the manga saying that it actually IS a god..or even omnipresent at that...

    kamui can alter space and time yes, it can take physical things away into its other astral reality, yes,
    But can spiritual items like yatamirror, ghosts, dan's soul, shiki fujin , pein's astral projections be affected by it? Not in my opinion..entirely different ball game... these things aren't physical or Material AT ALL... no form, just like kamui.. l.... which means they are possibly existing on two planes at once..

    And just like Obito uses kamui on himself, and thus CAN exist on either plane.. these things operate beyond that, as they can make contact with things on the physical plane, but things on the physical plane can't make contact with them
    gods are by definition omnipresent lol and the dead demon seal does call upon a god

    "The Dead Demon Consuming Seal is a seal which invokes the power of a spectral entity known as the Shinigami"
     
         
    Last edited by Draphsin; 01-23-2013 at 06:33 PM.

  15. #265
    終 充琉寿 Owarij's Avatar
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    Re: Yata Mirror Grossly Underated- HardCounter to Dust Release

    Haha you made me laugh there if it has 5 natures in it uses chakra you high or something?it has nature transformation stored it in not chakra.You waste chakra for it with whenever you use nature transformation you lose chakra it's that easy just like the fan tenten used it had all nature transformations in it but was about to kill tenten when she used it

    You bring up a good point,But it was stated the bannana fan is able to generate all 5 once the user thinks of it, while yata mirror is already imbuedwith all 5 forms of nature transformations..



    gods are by definition omnipresent lol and the dead demon seal does call upon a god
    Please relook up the definition of a God

    If you're too lazy

    God
    noun /gäd/ 

    (in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) The creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being

    (in certain other religions) A superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity
    - a moon god
    - an incarnation of the god Vishnu

    An image, idol, animal, or other object worshiped as divine or symbolizing a god

    Used as a conventional personification of fate
    - he dialed the number and, the gods relenting, got through at once

    An adored, admired, or influential person
    - he has little time for the fashion victims for whom he is a god

    A thing accorded the supreme importance appropriate to a god
    - don't make money your god
    All God's aren't all powerful,and omnipresent

    eg- thor


    "The Dead Demon Consuming Seal is a seal which invokes the power of a spectral entity known as the Shinigami"
    Unfortunately yata mirror is also a spectral entity
     
         
    Last edited by Owarij; 01-23-2013 at 06:39 PM.

  16. #266
    Fastr than You fastrthnwind's Avatar
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    Re: Yata Mirror Grossly Underated- HardCounter to Dust Release

    Quote Originally Posted by Owarij View Post
    Please relook up the definition of a God



    All God's aren't all powerful,and omnipresent

    eg- thor



    Unfortunately yata mirror is also a spectral entity
    Not all gods are omnipresent, but the god of death is one of them. The shinigami in Japanese folklore is the English equivalent of the grim reaper. It is death incarnate itself.

    It is a spectral entity when inside the mortal realm and can manipulate anything of physical and spiritual in nature. Outside of it, it is an Omnipresent being.
     
         

  17. #267
    終 充琉寿 Owarij's Avatar
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    Re: Yata Mirror Grossly Underated- HardCounter to Dust Release

    Not all gods are omnipresent, but the god of death is one of them. The shinigami in Japanese folklore is the English equivalent of the grim reaper. It is death incarnate itself.
    All of that is your opinion...Are you forgetting Minato created and named this technique? Once again noone knows if its actually a god or not..
     
         

  18. #268
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    Re: Yata Mirror Grossly Underated- HardCounter to Dust Release

    Underrated? laughable.. and why dig up old things liek this.. mirror and sword died with itachi ( prolly ) and with itachis chakras he couldnt maintain susanoo very long time, after susanoo drains him he's no longer "invincible"
     
         

  19. #269
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    Re: Yata Mirror Grossly Underated- HardCounter to Dust Release

    @NOemotions, we however are not talking about Itachi himself but the properties of Yatas shield.
    What is the reason for people to look for potential weaknesses of this shield, when Kihismoto explicitly noted there are no?
    Everyone agrees if I say that the databook is hyperbole at some point, when it's merely said that a certain ability, taken Preta-Path as an example, can absorb any Ninjutsu and Yatas mirror is able to protect its user from anything. Conclusions can be done by everyones interpretation, but both the databook and black Zetsu are not merely calling this weapon perfect, they call their user invincible and detailed explain how this shield works, in order to protect its user from anything. You cannot just ignore the meaning Kishimoto put into the databook when defining and not just hyping an ability.
     
         

  20. #270
    終 充琉寿 Owarij's Avatar
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    Re: Yata Mirror Grossly Underated- HardCounter to Dust Release

    Quote Originally Posted by NOemotions View Post
    Underrated? laughable.. and why dig up old things liek this.. mirror and sword died with itachi ( prolly ) and with itachis chakras he couldnt maintain susanoo very long time, after susanoo drains him he's no longer "invincible"

    This isn't about Itachi ....
    This is about yata mirror.. I'm very aware of Itachi problems with stamina
     
         

  21. #271
    Who ya gonna call? FizzyDrink's Avatar
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    Re: Yata Mirror Grossly Underated- HardCounter to Dust Release

    Quote Originally Posted by Owarij View Post

    Like amaterasu, Kamui does move in a path,the both are just so fast, kishi doesn't even show the path movement anymore



    It happened when he was sending it to Deidara's arms as welll

    I think this would end up a matter of if Yata mirror responds on its own to attacks, or if the wielder has to change its attributes.. The thing about kamui is that its an invisible attack
    I'll rethink the Kamui and Amaterasu not "appearing" on the target, I feel as though it's been said before that they appear on the target...but I'll let that be for now.

    What are your opinions on who controls the shield?
     
         

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    Re: Yata Mirror Grossly Underated- HardCounter to Dust Release

    Why did this thread suddenly resurface?
     
         

  23. #273
    終 充琉寿 Owarij's Avatar
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    Re: Yata Mirror Grossly Underated- HardCounter to Dust Release

    Quote Originally Posted by FizzyDrink View Post
    I'll rethink the Kamui and Amaterasu not "appearing" on the target, I feel as though it's been said before that they appear on the target...but I'll let that be for now.

    What are your opinions on who controls the shield?

    Yea, zetsu said amaterasu appears on where the user focuses his eye, But the problem is , In the manga we have scans implying it does move, though incredibly fast.. I'm open to both sides really


    As for who/ what controls the shield, I believe it reacts to the incoming attack and changes its attributes etc accordingly on its own
     
         

  24. #274
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    Re: Yata Mirror Grossly Underated- HardCounter to Dust Release

    The shield i believe has its own mind once itachi activates it an much like gaara sand it has a mind of its own,an since its a ghostly weapon i think kamui wont work itll probably be in a misdisorted kind of way, also add to the fact Obito was afried of itachi which the reason was most likely because of the spirit weapons i wonder if the blade of tsu could catch him even if he warps
     
         

  25. #275
    終 充琉寿 Owarij's Avatar
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    Re: Yata Mirror Grossly Underated- HardCounter to Dust Release

    ^agreed
     
         

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