Yata Mirror Grossly Underated- HardCounter to Dust Release

[binderr]

We all know of the two legendary spiritual weapons that caused Black zetsu to consider Itachi an Invincible force...

Hyperbole? Yes, But there is truth to his words...First one must understand what a Spirtual weapon is... Answer? Noone knows.. according to zetsu it's a supernatural item.... Databook implies noone really know how or when exactly they appeared.. but the legends have been passed down for years

What should be noted is that is has NO true phyiscal form, meaning these weapons have no true shape, and could essentially become what shape or size the user wishes... They way we see them now is at a size fit for susanno, but when these weapons were found by Itachi, they wouldn't have been large, they could have been anything, maybe even the normal size of a katana and shield..

If you don't believe what i'm saying, Of course , I have proof , often overlooked

Here you see how yatta mirror is, a flat shield, a bit bigger than Itachi, but still smaller than susanno itself..


Sasuke then throws explosive kunai to cause and explosion

You can no see the shield has grown, as the head of susanno is no longer higher in the air

specifically talking about this


You also should note the sfx showing the mirror was shrinking after the attack..


Next feat of this? pretty obvious

If you don't see it


You clearly see it extended again, covering more in the back of itachi, which is not how it originally looked, considering its flat


Now I want you to pay CLOSE attention , to the last two pictures I posted, and realize that for this attack, Yata mirror has changed size and shape, and is now fully covering Susanno....

This means that no matter WHAT attack comes at Itachi, Yata mirror can Change not only its ELEMENTS, but its ATTRIBUTES , to deflect it.....

The databook even says this

Note that it changes its attributes and properties..


You should also be aware that yata mirror doesn't simply "block' all attacks.. It REFLECTS.. All attacks.. as stated like 500 times in the manga and databook..





MUU - Onooki

People, alot of people , have been putting Muu over Itachi simply because Jinton is a "360" thing.... they claim, that yata mirror and its frontward defence would not at all protect Itachi from the molecule disintegration..
Bullocks..

As Ive shown before, ANY incoming attack, would be countered by the mirror and reflected... even if yata mirror has to stretch in a 360 manner to do so , similar to what happened here


This isnt solely for Jinton....Any incoming taijutsu attack will be countered... yata mirror repelled Sasuke's and his kusunagi thrust....
People claim that A would be able to go behind yata mirror and attack.. Once again, this isn't a legendary spirtual item for crap and giggles..Like gaara's sand, the yata mirror protects the user from ANY attack



But how far can yata mirror really go?
Its not exactly clear, the databook mostly speaks of its impervious fortitude when pitted against jutsu

Material

Astral

Physical

and Ninjutsu

What I want you to focus on is the two bolded

as·tral
/ˈastrəl/
Adjective
Of or relating to a supposed nonphysical realm of existence in which the physical human body is said to have a counterpart.

what? : o, Databook implies that Yata mirror would even defend against non physical dimension related attacks? Attacks like Long ranged Kamui?

....That my friends is up to you to see and consider

Grossly underated spiritual items

EDIT

i

Another thing everyone should note is the sheer speed that the shape manipulation happens... The mirror moves from its small state to incredibly large withing milliseconds of the attack actually hitting

Inb4 Bogard, minator94 Soloking solos

yeah. I pitted Itachis susanoo against Madaras PS once: everyobdy said PS was best but I still think Itachis susanoo is best

[Niwdog]

In my previous post I meant that it could counter Yata Mirror and Itachi altogether. Why? Because it isn't an elemental or astral attack - it has no notion of physicality. Nothing can escape gravity. It could probably hold its ground for a short time span, but it would ultimately be subdued.

Another reason why I'm lead to believe this is that Itachi used his Susano'o against Chibaku Tensei before. He stated the only way to counter Chibaku Tensei in that instance is to overwhelm it. If Yata Mirror was truly the panacea, why didn't he use it? He could have told Naruto and Bee to merely hide by his Yata Mirror if it could counter Chibaku Tensei's gravitational pull. The only conclusion is that Yata Mirror was not a feasible counter to Chibaku Tensei so he henceforth hypothesized a different strategy.

Whilst I agree that Yata Mirror is not sufficient for countering or eliminating Chibaku Tensei, I don't think that was the reason Itachi didn't try to counter it with Yata Mirror and have Naruto and Bee hide with him behind it to survive it. Let's say that Yata Mirror could was a feasible defence against Chibaku Tensei, it would have been fruitless for Naruto, Bee and Itachi to merely endure the attack and protect themselves because that would not really have progressed any further with defeating Nagato since that would prevent Naruto, Bee and to an extent Itachi's mobility, who would have to remain constantly behind the Yata Mirror whilst fighting Nagato. Itachi tends to make moves that attempt to end battles as soon as possible and eliminating Chibaku Tensei was a better move in that respect than providing a counter that would only defend him, Naruto and Bee against it.

[PureSkillz]

Yata can't defend against Kaumi.. Kaumi warps you into another
dimension.

Unless the Kaumi user tried to rip the Yata Mirror in half, then I have no doubts
that it would resist being destroyed. But you can't prove that Itachi's Susanoo
wouldn't be able to be warped.

Also, that didn't look like the bomb-kunai/explosion was reflected in your scan, it looked like it was blocked.

[Forget Me Not]

Itachi does not need to activate Susano'o to use the Totsuka Blade and Yata Mirror since they are items that are separate to Susanoo and can be used independent of them, or else Oro wouldn't have been after the blade and the mirror. This means that Itachi doesn't have to exhaust tonnes of chakra to use them. His invincibility still maintains without the use of his chakra. And if what this thread's OP claims is true and Yata Mirror can extend around Itachi, then Itachi's a lot more powerful and effective a shinobi than I already thought he was, and that sounds like such a backwards thing to say on this forum considering how overhyped Itachi is on it.

Another important thing, does Yata Mirror count as ninjutsu?

No, he obviously doesn't need Susano to use the items. But that is besides the point. The reason why Black Zetsu exclaimed that Itachi is invincible is because of the combination of Susano + Yata Mirror + Totsuka Blade. Not just because Itachi possesses them. He didn't state that the items are invincible.

We also don't know how much chakra wielding these items exhaust without a medium like Susano'o. The event of Itachi using these items without Susano was never introduced, so the point you're trying to make is more or less non-sequitur.

Yata Mirror is also not ninjutsu; it's a spiritual weapon.

[Forget Me Not]

yeah. I pitted Itachis susanoo against Madaras PS once: everyobdy said PS was best but I still think Itachis susanoo is best

Are you saying Itachi's Susano is superior to Madara's PS? Because if so please re-think your stance. Or better yet re-read this thread.

Those items are far from invincible. Itachi is also far from invincible.

[Niwdog]

No, he obviously doesn't need Susano to use the items. But that is besides the point. The reason why Black Zetsu exclaimed that Itachi is invincible is because of the combination of Susano + Yata Mirror + Totsuka Blade. Not just because Itachi possesses them. He didn't state that the items are invincible.

We also don't know how much chakra wielding these items exhaust without a medium like Susano'o. The event of Itachi using these items without Susano was never introduced, so the point you're trying to make is more or less non-sequitur.

Yata Mirror is also not ninjutsu; it's a spiritual weapon.

Hmmmm, that's true. You could be right there. The only time Itachi has used Totsuka Blade without Susano'o was when he was an Edo. But if Orochimaru wanted to use it, could it really exhaust that much chakra? At the same time, I agree with what you're saying. There really is no way to know at all how much chakra is required to use the items.

[Forget Me Not]

Hmmmm, that's true. You could be right there. The only time Itachi has used Totsuka Blade without Susano'o was when he was an Edo. But if Orochimaru wanted to use it, could it really exhaust that much chakra? At the same time, I agree with what you're saying. There really is no way to know at all how much chakra is required to use the items.

Yes, indeed. Also when has he used Totsuka Blade without Susano'o? He's always used it with Susano'o to my knowledge.

[Nupp]

Are you saying Itachi's Susano is superior to Madara's PS? Because if so please re-think your stance. Or better yet re-read this thread.

Those items are far from invincible. Itachi is also far from invincible.

Black Zetsu was made at a time Madara had his perfect susano and outright called Itachi invincible, you are simply a Madara fanboy

[Forget Me Not]

Black Zetsu was made at a time Madara had his perfect susano and outright called Itachi invincible, you are simply a Madara fanboy

What does your post have to do with anything? He didn't "outright" call Itachi invincible. Are you stupid? It's a consensus in this thread that this was hyperbole. Did you even read the OP?

If I'm a Madara fanboy is that why I've supported Itachi throughout this thread? Is that why I'm sporting an Itachi avatar? Just because I search for the truth in its purest form doesn't mean I'm opposed to any character. The fact that you even made this post leads me to believe you are the only fanboy here.

Simply a biased, mindless fanboy.

[sagedog]

Gotta give it to Itachi nobody else has these tools

[thegame]

Yeah I always agreed on this, this is why, Itachi can't be beaten with force. Why else would he be so excessive specialized in Genjutsu? The only thing that can possibly penetrate the shield, would be genjutsu, since it doesn't move in any spiritual or physical form, when it reaches its target.

Good thread Owarji, you proved it solidly, though I don't completely see 100 % proof that it protects 360 degrees (since we don't see all way around), but it would be weird, if it took the shape of a quarter hollow sphere, and couldn't move that to a half hollow sphere.

Question is, is the seal automatic life Susanoo? Or is it Itachis will? Depending on this, it would still be possible to get past the shield (from underground or using diversion, etc.).

The last thing is, yeah it does protect against dust release, but it's not like it can deflect the 360 degrees dust release to the outside of the box, so still has no danger to Onoki (given he uses this form of it, if he uses the cylindrical, he will still be protected, since it would just be reflected into his own, however, he would be in quite a ****ty situation given he can't move and will just deplete his chakra ). However, the chakra use of dust release exceeds that of Susanoo (at least for the time given during dust release compared to susanoo in the same amount of time), thus in terms of chakra levels, Itachi would last longer.

Anyway gj plus rep.

[Draphsin]

Jinton beats a susanoo with yata mrror simply because a shield cant defend from all angles while dust release is a jutsu that attacks from all angles

I DARE someone to prove me wrong...

[Nupp]

What does your post have to do with anything? He didn't "outright" call Itachi invincible. Are you stupid? It's a consensus in this thread that this was hyperbole. Did you even read the OP?

If I'm a Madara fanboy is that why I've supported Itachi throughout this thread? Is that why I'm sporting an Itachi avatar? Just because I search for the truth in its purest form doesn't mean I'm opposed to any character. The fact that you even made this post leads me to believe you are the only fanboy here.

Simply a biased, mindless fanboy.

I don't think a group of strangers who never met get to decide how the writer of a manga intended his work to be taken.... This thread can think what it likes but I have never seen black Zetsu use a hyperbole at any other point and even if he was exaggerating i'm sure if Madara's perfect susano was better than Itachi's with the spirit items then he would not have been as amazed or impressed....

To outright say Madara's Susano is better than Itachi's given we have seen very little of both either means you are swayed to one side out of favoritism or you read FAR to much into what little we have seen of them.... I had given your intelligence the benefit of the doubt and assumed it was favoritism rather than making wild assumptions off so little evidence but if that's not the case then fair enough.

[Forget Me Not]

I don't think a group of strangers who never met get to decide how the writer of a manga intended his work to be taken.... This thread can think what it likes but I have never seen black Zetsu use a hyperbole at any other point and even if he was exaggerating i'm sure if Madara's perfect susano was better than Itachi's with the spirit items then he would not have been as amazed or impressed....

Hyperbole is actually fairly common in Literature. It happens all the time. In almost any manga series. It isn't hard to determine what his writing means.

I also don't get how you see it that way. Susano'o w/ Yata Mirror + Totsuka Blade is NO laughing matter. Why wouldn't he compliment it amidst the battle as such? There is no comparison to be made in his statement. Madara's PS didn't have anything to do with that fight.

To outright say Madara's Susano is better than Itachi's given we have seen very little of both either means you are swayed to one side out of favoritism or you read FAR to much into what little we have seen of them.... I had given your intelligence the benefit of the doubt and assumed it was favoritism rather than making wild assumptions off so little evidence but if that's not the case then fair enough.

Madara's regular Susano'o isn't better than Itachi's with the legendary weapons. His PS, however, is based off of feats. Can Itachi's Susano'o defeat the 5 kages? Most likely not. How about reshape entire maps? What Itachi's Susano'o did to Orochimaru in like 1 min it would take a single stroke with Madara's.

We have seen pretty much entirely what Itachi's Susano'o can do. Even with the small glimpse we've seen of PS it is actually very easy to draw this conclusion.

I'm sorry, but if anyone can say Itachi's Susano'o > PS, they're either reading a different manga or don't understand the manga presented to them.

[Nupp]

Hyperbole is actually fairly common in Literature. It happens all the time. In almost any manga series. It isn't hard to determine what his writing means.

I also don't get how you see it that way. Susano'o w/ Yata Mirror + Totsuka Blade is NO laughing matter. Why wouldn't he compliment it amidst the battle as such? There is no comparison to be made in his statement. Madara's PS didn't have anything to do with that fight.




Madara's regular Susano'o isn't better than Itachi's with the legendary weapons. His PS, however, is based off of feats. Can Itachi's Susano'o defeat the 5 kages? Most likely not. How about reshape entire maps? What Itachi's Susano'o did to Orochimaru in like 1 min it would take a single stroke with Madara's.

We have seen pretty much entirely what Itachi's Susano'o can do. Even with the small glimpse we've seen of PS it is actually very easy to draw this conclusion.

I'm sorry, but if anyone can say Itachi's Susano'o > PS, they're either reading a different manga or don't understand the manga presented to them.

Yea if he was not about to die like he was against Sasuke.... Let's say Edo Itachi VS the 5 Kage then yea he probably could beat them all.... I'm well aware of how often hyperboles are used, for example Madara used one when he said his perfect susano could destroy all creation. All we saw of it was one sword swing which i'm sure people could argue the Yata mirror could block.

Like I said we simply don't know enough about it to know for sure, we never even saw Itachi fight using his full power.... Like not ever, he clearly went easy on Sasuke and intended from the start to lose, he was outright avoiding his full power against Kabuto and he never needed his full power against Nagato.

So can you 100% say Itachi could not have used perfect Susano in his edo form? Can you say for sure that the perfect Susano even has more moves than the previous versions? Can you say for sure that the Yata mirror can't block any moves it may have?

I'd bet a years wages that you can't at this point in time.... You don't know enough about either Susano to make that claim, Kishi could go either way with their Susano's without making a plot hole so don't state your thoughts as facts.

[EliteKakashi]

Kamui vs Yata Mirror is interesting.

I don't think it could warp the mirror itself. There's nothing physically there for it to warp. As I explained in a post a while back[1], and as Kakashi has stated in the past[2], he can put however much chakra in to kamui that he desires. The bigger the object, the more chakra he puts in it. So we know that he has to base his kamui off the physical size of the object. I imagine weight, along with height and width effects his decision. That sounds logical enough.

So determining how much chakra he would have to use to warp the Yata Mirror would be where Kakashi's/Kamui's first issue would come in. As Owarij showed, it can change it's size to protect the user. Now the 2nd issue comes in the fact is the Yata Mirror even capable of being warped, as it is not a physical object. Going off this definition/image that Owarij showed in his first post:



The answer would seem to be no. What I would find interesting is could the kamui "pierce through" or "ignore" the yata mirror and suck in whatever is being protected by it. It is stated that there is "no defense" against the technique. Could the Yata Mirror prevent whatever it's protecting from being sucked in to the other dimension? That would be what I would be interested in finding out.

[Forget Me Not]

Yea if he was not about to die like he was against Sasuke.... Let's say Edo Itachi VS the 5 Kage then yea he probably could beat them all.... I'm well aware of how often hyperboles are used, for example Madara used one when he said his perfect susano could destroy all creation. All we saw of it was one sword swing which i'm sure people could argue the Yata mirror could block.

So you're saying Edo Itachi could defeat the 5 kages? I'm sorry, I can no longer take you seriously. Based on feats this is wholly wrong.

Like I said we simply don't know enough about it to know for sure, we never even saw Itachi fight using his full power.... Like not ever, he clearly went easy on Sasuke and intended from the start to lose, he was outright avoiding his full power against Kabuto and he never needed his full power against Nagato.

Itachi has never used his full power in a fight? This is also wrong. We've already seen nearly all of his arsenal against Sasuke, Izanami exempt.

And Itachi didn't hold EVERYTHING back against Kabuto. Not even close. You are blowing Kishi's writing beyond epic proportions. And he *did* use his full power against Nagato. And ultimately that wasn't even enough. That's why he had help from Naruto and Bee. He wasn't able to take out Chibaku Tensei by himself.

You are overhyping Itachi and giving him feats he doesn't really have. And I'm sure mostly everyone would agree on this much.

So can you 100% say Itachi could not have used perfect Susano in his edo form? Can you say for sure that the perfect Susano even has more moves than the previous versions? Can you say for sure that the Yata mirror can't block any moves it may have?

What? Are you now suggesting Itachi could have possibly used PS? You have officially solidified yourself as an Itachi fanboy. Almost everything you've said has already been refuted..even by the OP indirectly.

PS's sheer horsepower alone cements it as the superior Susano'o. That's why it's called PERFECT Susano'o and Itachi's isn't.

Another reason why Itachi's Susano'o can't be better than Madara's is because he has stamina limitations. MS also pays a heavy toll on the user. So he wouldn't even be able to maintain his Susano'o for nearly long enough to compete with Madara's PS.

I'd bet a years wages that you can't at this point in time.... You don't know enough about either Susano to make that claim, Kishi could go either way with their Susano's without making a plot hole so don't state your thoughts as facts.

Kishi has given us sufficient evidence and information to make all of the conclusions that have been made in this thread. You are clearly in denial.

And you clearly have no idea how literature or writing works. You woefully misused the term "plot hole".

[thegame]

Jinton beats a susanoo with yata mrror simply because a shield cant defend from all angles while dust release is a jutsu that attacks from all angles

I DARE someone to prove me wrong...

Try reading the actual original post of this thread, and you will realize, your comment is invalid.

[thegame]

Kamui vs Yata Mirror is interesting.

I don't think it could warp the mirror itself. There's nothing physically there for it to warp. As I explained in a post a while back[1], and as Kakashi has stated in the past[2], he can put however much chakra in to kamui that he desires. The bigger the object, the more chakra he puts in it. So we know that he has to base his kamui off the physical size of the object. I imagine weight, along with height and width effects his decision. That sounds logical enough.

So determining how much chakra he would have to use to warp the Yata Mirror would be where Kakashi's/Kamui's first issue would come in. As Owarij showed, it can change it's size to protect the user. Now the 2nd issue comes in the fact is the Yata Mirror even capable of being warped, as it is not a physical object. Going off this definition/image that Owarij showed in his first post:



The answer would seem to be no. What I would find interesting is could the kamui "pierce through" or "ignore" the yata mirror and suck in whatever is being protected by it. It is stated that there is "no defense" against the technique. Could the Yata Mirror prevent whatever it's protecting from being sucked in to the other dimension? That would be what I would be interested in finding out.

Hmm, you seem to be forgetting major feats regarding kamui. Lets see it as a minor "hole" from one dimension to the other. Kakashi can open this hole, wherever he looks. Though he probably cannot use it behind objects, which he can't see through, it is highly possible that he can use it on the other side of transparent objects. I see no evidence suggesting otherwise.

Kamui, as I interpret it, opens at the location, Kakashi focuses the vision of his eye at. So focusing this behind some transparent object would be possible. Now the databook does not give a good description of how the mechanism for Kamui work. Do some chakra move from Kakashis eye and to the location, where he opens the hole? These are important factors, to determine, how it works. But if chakra was moving, we should see it. Which is why I believe it is an instant, sort of like Amaterasu, which also appears, where the user looks at. In general this is very characteristic for MS techniques. So I think even Amaterasu can "get through" the yata mirror. Well it doesn't slip through, it simply appears on the other side of it. However, this Itachi could just put out, but Kamui is a different story. IMO Kamui can beat the wielder of the mirror.

[EliteKakashi]

Hmm, you seem to be forgetting major feats regarding kamui. Lets see it as a minor "hole" from one dimension to the other. Kakashi can open this hole, wherever he looks. Though he probably cannot use it behind objects, which he can't see through, it is highly possible that he can use it on the other side of transparent objects. I see no evidence suggesting otherwise.

Kamui, as I interpret it, opens at the location, Kakashi focuses the vision of his eye at. So focusing this behind some transparent object would be possible. Now the databook does not give a good description of how the mechanism for Kamui work. Do some chakra move from Kakashis eye and to the location, where he opens the hole? These are important factors, to determine, how it works. But if chakra was moving, we should see it. Which is why I believe it is an instant, sort of like Amaterasu, which also appears, where the user looks at. In general this is very characteristic for MS techniques. So I think even Amaterasu can "get through" the yata mirror. Well it doesn't slip through, it simply appears on the other side of it. However, this Itachi could just put out, but Kamui is a different story. IMO Kamui can beat the wielder of the mirror.

The issue with that would be the mirror covering the entire body of the wielder. It would simply depend on how fast Kakashi warps it(it's shown he can warp humans practically instantly). However, the size of susanoo would play in to it, as susanoo is a physical being and a large one at that. Kakashi managed to use kamui to warp the gyuki at an extremely fast rate, but I dunno if it would be quick enough to warp before the mirror can protect the user from behind.

[khaydz5]

^ Never read the thread, you'd see scans of it doing that


@the rest, I'm in my HCI class , so when I get home i'll reply

I did a quick read through..
People do realize ASTRAL attacks are listed under the things yata mirror can defend from....
The ONLY astral attack in the databook or displayed in the manga since the last db was KAMUI...

can you post a page where it says KAMUI is an astral attack?

also do you believe that this shield can counter gravity like CT? lol and this attack is categorized as what? material?astral?ninjutsu?physical?

lol you're pulling everything out of your butt.

[Forget Me Not]

can you post a page where it says KAMUI is an astral attack?

also do you believe that this shield can counter gravity like CT? lol and this attack is categorized as what? material?astral?ninjutsu?physical?

lol you're pulling everything out of your butt.

I've already explained how I think CT can counter Yata Mirror.

I think Owariji is already aware of its weaknesses.. It's clear that it isn't invincible. If anyone paid any attention to the thread this has already been pretty much summed up a while ago.

[fastrthnwind]

How the hell are my comments not getting recognized in this thread?

Anyways, concerning kamui vs yata mirror. Kamui is a s/t jutsu that trancends any form of physical or ethereal jutsu because it is neither a physical attack or ethereal in nature. It literally alters reality to the user's desires. Because physical and etheral beings and objects are subject to reality, they can be subject to the reality warping abilities of Kamui. The only thing that could counter Kamui is another reality altering jutsu such as another kamui, or, possibly izanagi.

[Forget Me Not]

How the hell are my comments not getting recognized in this thread?

Anyways, concerning kamui vs yata mirror. Kamui is a s/t jutsu that trancends any form of physical or ethereal jutsu because it is neither a physical attack or ethereal in nature. It literally alters reality to the user's desires. Because physical and etheral beings and objects are subject to reality, they can be subject to the reality warping abilities of Kamui. The only thing that could counter Kamui is another reality altering jutsu such as another kamui, or, possibly izanagi.

This.

On top of that, someone like Obito could just use his S/T to warp where Itachi is and then Kamui him instead of directly using Kamui on Susano'o/Yata Mirror.

Don't take it personally man, a LOT of people have been ignoring a lot of critical posts made in this thread.

[KillYondaimeHaters]

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