Myth Busting Thread #3 - Hanzo was not this incredible, super kage level shinobi

[a thousand years of death]

just so you know hanzo lost his edge which is what mifune told him and nagato tried to tell him. and lets not forget nagato destroyed an entire major ninja villiage in a matter of hours.

hanzo is no push over. also i thought the masses of ninja in the battlefield were konoha shinobi that hanzo had killed not the other way around. i will have to check it latter.

[PrettyFlacko]

Hanzo stomps. They weren't teenagers. unless you call late 20's 28teen lol. 3 against 1 no contest.

[ItachiStyle]

It doesn't specify who all the dead ninja belong to. Which is why people shouldn't assume too much about this fight, because they didn't see it. Certainly my first impression was that the Sannin had been through the middle of a cluster F#@! war zone when Hanzo turns up and surveys the dead everywhere and says "even in the midst of all this, you were able to survive"

[ItachiStyle]

Hanzo stomps. They weren't teenagers. unless you call late 20's 28teen lol. 3 against 1 no contest.

They could have been teenagers, they could have been mid to early 20's. It isn't important though, what is important is that they were nowhere near as strong as they'd later become. Jesus, try reading the thread.

[PrimeOfTheSixPaths]

Hanzo was still strong.

It is true that the Sennin were not in their prime, and at that moment, Hanzo was. If he wasn't so paranoid, he'd probably wouldve been even better.

[ItachiStyle]

I think some lower end Kage level shinobi might have actually struggled with Hanzo... but frankly, I can't think of one Kage that would lose to him. At the end of the day, is he even in the top 30 Shinobi we've seen thus far? I doubt it. The adult Sannin would all curb stomp this guy. Not to mention pretty much every Uchiha we've seen in action, every Kage, most of Akatsuki, various Jonin (Gai, Kakashi, etc), most tailed beast hosts, the list goes on. Yeh, he was "strong", but nothing special.

[Knights Saotome]

hanzo's power lies in his poison, any enemy that breaths and has lil to no resists to the poison then their dead. waves of troops or unprepared kage, it matters not. in theory hanzo could beat garra, as long as contact with the poison is made. no hanzo dose not have huge chakra levels nor any super powerful jutsu. though his poison spewing lizard is pretty badass. :EDIT: also in the mifiune hanzo fight didnt mifiune have the upperhand due to his resist to hanzo poison? so hanzo was forced into a one sided fight he would prolly have avoided, or at least prepared for.

[Knights Saotome]

Why is it that people believe they are entitled to respect? You earn respect, it's not given automatically. Your opinion is not based on a reasonable analysis of the evidence, so it's uninformed and illogical... of course I don't respect it. Should I respect people who believe in the Santa too?

seeing as its only children who do so yes, unless your a godfearing pedofile.

[ItachiStyle]

Poison isn't the unbeatable technique it's being held out as. It's a gimmick technique, that is near useless against high level Shinobi. You just hold your breath when you see it coming, and get some distance, then counter attack. Even a teenage Sakura knew to hold her breath when poison was being used. Even Tsunade's lame apprentice can use poison (again, to no effect, Kabuto just dodged it). Shizune's poison is said to be fatal if even a whiff is breathed in. And it was useless. It's especially useless when the guys you are fighting can jump hundreds of feat in the air, summon creatures who are physically bigger than the gas cloud you created, fire attacks vastly bigger than the gas cloud (and bigger than an area you can dodge), and when those summoned creatures can jump thousands of feet through the air.

[The Infernal Spirit]

MANGA > YOU

[NLee]

I have noticed an alarming number of errors on this board, and I'm going to start trying to eliminate them so that people stop citing them as evidence for their theories.

The 3rd of these is that Hanzo of the Salamander was some amazingly awesome Shinobi. He wasn't.

Hanzo was a good ninja, no doubt there. And he had a great rep. But the more we've seen of him, the clearer it has been that he isn't anything special. The guys big claim to fame was that he fought evenly with the Sannin back when they were teenagers. This fight doesn't mean much though, because:
a) they were teenagers, who hadn't gotten nearly as strong as they would later. Tsunade didn't have her regen techniques for instance, Jiraiya doesn't seem to have Sage mode or the Rasengan (which hadn't been invented yet), Oro hadn't gone through numerous power ups from absorbing other host bodies, and adding their strength to his own, nor had he invented numerous techniques that would make him way stronger than Hanzo (like Edo Tensei). None of them seem to have had their summons available for the fight either (or were too tired to summon them). This brings me to the 2nd point,
b) We don't know the circumstances of the fight. For all we know the Sannin were exhausted from killing all Hanzo's men (see all the dead bodies visible in the fight?), and by the time Hanzo showed up they were in no condition to take him and his Salamander.

Your entire reasoning here is backwards.

Hanzo's fame didn't come from fighting the Sannin. The Sannin's fame came from fighting Hanzo. They were given the title by Hanzo. As a matter of fact, they were spared because they impressed him.

As for his placement in the war, you do realize that not a single of the War fights has been about action. Almost every single fight we've seen has been about the shinobi's feelings and history. We've seen Zabuza and Haku vs Kakashi, Gaara vs his father, Sasori vs Kankuro, and Hanzo vs Mifune. Kishi wanted that fight to do what it did - to explore Hanzo and Mifune's past.

[NowNoon]

He beat 3 sannin when they were young, not OLD like when we fans were first introduced to them. Can't count them out just cuz they were young, look at Naruto and Sasuke, still teens themselves. Hanzo was a monster.

[The Infernal Spirit]

Hanzo himself was a legendary shinobi he didn't just fight the soon to be dubbed sanin.They were the were the only ones to survive the fight.

He was pointed out to be powerful because he was based off of Japan's most famous and lgendary ninja Hattori Hanzo

Hanzō may have been named after a famous real-life samurai and widely believed ninja Hattori Hanzō (服部半蔵). This is further accentuated by his connections with samurai of the Naruto universe and his final act of suicide, typical of real-life samurai.
It is popular Japanese legend that Hattori Hanzō was killed by Fūma Kotarō. Pain's first Animal Path was said to be from the Fūma clan.
He may also be named after the Japanese giant salamander. This species is also called the hanzaki (半割), which shares the first kanji with Hanzō's name.
Hanzō's nickname and his element affinity have significant meaning because in ancient mythology, although being amphibious, the salamander was considered the living symbol of fire and as such was completely fireproof and able to live in fire itself.


Most Kishi fans know he draws a lot of inspiration from mythology and history.

[EliteKakashi]

Jiraiya's statement of not believing a single man can beat him, along side of the fact that the ninja he was interrogating claimed "this is a God we're talking about", in reference to someone needing to be so powerful to defeat Hanzo, says quite a bit. Jiraiya also says "impossible" over the shock of him being beaten, he even starts to sweat. Jiraiya obviously held him in pretty high regard.






Jiraiya doesn't go around praising random fodders. When he's in disbelief over someone getting defeated, I would take it seriously.

In regards to his placement with the Edos, Mifune himself says Hanzo isn't what he once was. If I remember correctly, he said Hanzo was a shell of his former self, or something to that effect.

[ghetto gladiator]

nice

[ItachiStyle]

Your entire reasoning here is backwards.

Hanzo's fame didn't come from fighting the Sannin. The Sannin's fame came from fighting Hanzo. They were given the title by Hanzo. As a matter of fact, they were spared because they impressed him.

Yes, as teenagers they gained a rep from impressing Hanzo and surviving a battle (of which fighting Hanzo was only one part). But that isn't the reason the Sannin are ranked where they are now, because after that they went and got alot stronger. At any rate, lots of Shinobi have a good rep. Sasori had a rep, white fang had a rep. It didn't make them stronger than someone just because they were famous, it's not like Jiraiya told us "Hanzo is the strongest Shinobi I've ever seen in battle", at least then we'd have something decisive to go off. Even if we were to give some cred to his (vague and undefined) rep, that evidence is nowhere near as persuasive as what we actually saw him do in battle when edo'd... which is to say, not very much. Feats trump a vague rep every time.

As for his placement in the war, you do realize that not a single of the War fights has been about action. Almost every single fight we've seen has been about the shinobi's feelings and history. We've seen Zabuza and Haku vs Kakashi, Gaara vs his father, Sasori vs Kankuro, and Hanzo vs Mifune. Kishi wanted that fight to do what it did - to explore Hanzo and Mifune's past.

The fact that the fight was a metaphor (as many are) in no way, shape or form means we should disregard the outcome of the fight.

Jiraiya's statement of not believing a single man can beat him

Jiraiya never says that. I can see how you might infer it to be one reading, but it's vague and unclear. I could also infer a very different meaning from it. What isn't vague and unclear are the rock solid feats we got from seeing Hanzo edo'd... in which he was nothing special. Jiraiya says "impossible" in response to the claim he destroyed all the Amagakure by himself... not at the fact he beat Hanzo. He expresses susprise a single man could have beaten Hanzo, but that's right after we have this fodder shinobi explain that Hanzo took crazy security measures, so it seems more likely Jiraiya is shocked about the fact one guy could fight his way through Amagakure's defences, and then defeat Hanzo, unaided. Not that a single guy could beat Hanzo period. We know that's not too tough... Mifune did it.

In regards to his placement with the Edos, Mifune himself says Hanzo isn't what he once was. If I remember correctly, he said Hanzo was a shell of his former self, or something to that effect.

Mifune doesn't say he physically got weaker, merely that he "lost his faith", part of some metaphysical wankery Kishi is pulling during the fight. His actual power was the same... and that power is someone who Kabuto put in the ambush unit because he wasn't worth using on the front lines, and who can't do jutsu without seals (and whose hyped up Salamander can be killed with a sword swung by Mifune).

[Killer B]

The real question: Is Mifune kage level?

[noni1997]

He might not be as big as most people say but he was definitly worthy of a kage level

[TheWillofFire]

I disagree, hanzo is some incredible kage level

Shunshin no jutsu, a rare, super awesome kage jutsu

[ItachiStyle]

He might not be as big as most people say but he was definitly worthy of a kage level

I can't think of one Kage we've seen in action who he could beat. Indeed, I can think of alot of non-Kages who are clearly more powerful than him. So far one of the weakest Kage we've seen in action is Gaara's father, and he looks like he's own Hanzo pretty easily.

[DESTRUCTO]

This entire thread is simply your opinion and how YOU view the manga and its character levels. You really haven't provided any facts and you're pretty much down playing everything. I don't even think we're reading the same manga. I think if i see your name as the producer of a thread, I'll probably just skip it and read a different one. So, using your own words "respect isn't given, it's earned..." You have been a member of the base for probably about a week or two, and you're not doing a very good job of earning MY respect, and I'm sure a few others would agree with me. Peace ya piece...

[Wysten]

To be fair, we have relatively little data to compare against.

We saw him fight the aftermath 3 Senin, he won but let them go. We don't have any real indications on how strong they were, or whether they were merely the last 3 standing out of an army conflict. We really don't have any idea what happened, only Hanzo was probably instrumental in that battle.

We saw him fight against Nagato twice, the first time he was forced to flee from the sheer assualt, the second time he was easily dealt with largely due to simply how powerful the 6 paths are. (To not, even Naruto hasn't fought the 6 paths of pain at the same time since God path was unavalible at the time. Even then, he had the asistance of summoned creatures, so Pain can logically descimate most ninja in the naruto world in a 6 on 1 battle with relative ease. The only character who fought the six paths and lived was J-Man, and he went back there and subquently died.)

We saw him fight a Samuari guy who was experienced and had been training to counter ninja. This hardly paints him in a good light since he really didn't do much that fight, he had been forced to play at the samurai's game and again, we really don't get much out of this battle either. Most likely the writer just wanted to get that battle done with quickly so the more importent issues could be addressed.


So really, we can either conclude he's really weak. Or has simply been put at a overwelming disadvantage whenever we have seen him.

What we can extract though is that he is a Kage level ninja, probably on the same level as those at the Kage summit. Which is respectively strong, but typically overly specialised. So that characters with a resistance to his speciality would walk all over him.

[ItachiStyle]

What we can extract though is that he is a Kage level ninja, probably on the same level as those at the Kage summit. Which is respectively strong, but typically overly specialised. So that characters with a resistance to his speciality would walk all over him.

Actually the idea of Kage level ninja is that they are more than mere specialists, who can't be paper-scissor-rocked easily. Who are these specialist Kage you're thinking of, who are walked all over in this fashion? Again, I can't think of any. I can't think of any who'd lose to Mifune either.

[Dannyd416]

Not Bad but you are missing a couple key elements to Hanzo. Hanzo was weak when he fought Mifune because years before his death he stopped training to "preserve" his skills. In reality his powers had seriously deteriorated to point where one path of pain was able to defeat him. The Hanzo brought back wasn't the Same Hanzo who defeated the Sannin. One more testament to his power is the fact that he is the only rain ninja who survived Pein's summoning of the demonic statue of the outer path. He even managed to cripple Nagato to point where he is unable to move properly. Although I think he is stronger than you give him credit, it is true that he is seriously hyped up.

[ItachiStyle]

Not Bad but you are missing a couple key elements to Hanzo. Hanzo was weak when he fought Mifune because years before his death he stopped training to "preserve" his skills. In reality his powers had seriously deteriorated to point where one path of pain was able to defeat him. The Hanzo brought back wasn't the Same Hanzo who defeated the Sannin. One more testament to his power is the fact that he is the only rain ninja who survived Pein's summoning of the demonic statue of the outer path. He even managed to cripple Nagato to point where he is unable to move properly. Although I think he is stronger than you give him credit, it is true that he is seriously hyped up.

I see alot of people say this, and it's almost a myth worthy of debunking on its own. Hanzo is never said to have substantially lost his skills, he is said to have "lost his faith", which Mifune evokes as a tired metaphor through their fight. His actual "power" is still exactly the same, and as a matter of fact he fought all 6 of the paths: http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/531/15 Hanzo was the same Hanzo as far as we know, except without as much "faith" or whatever metaphysical wank Mifune wants to claim (though Mifune also tells us later that he will speak of him as one who "never lost his faith", so a bit inconsistent here).

At the end of the day Hanzo lost to Mifune, and has very little to suggest he's awesome, aside from stalemating some well below peak Sannin when they were young, under unclear circumstances.