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  1. #76
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    Re: Myth Busting Thread #3 - Hanzo was not this incredible, super kage level shinobi

    Mhh, you just make a bunch of assumptions, which you have no knowledge about. Fact is, more evidence points against you. I revise you to read chapter 369 - About Pain. Jiraya is clearly amazed that Hanzou could be defeated by a single man. And we're talking about grown up, prime Jiraya here.

    The other thing is, you make assumptions on facts, like Tsunade not having her seal, and that the 3 of them didn't use their summons. How do you know? You don't.

    Fact is that, when Jiraya, Tsunade, and Oro met for the first time in the actual manga, they all summoned each of their giant summon. Gamabunta said something interesting. "It's been a while, Oro, Tsunade, you holding some reunion." And he also talked about Katsuyu and Manda.

    So clearly the 3 had been summoned together at some point in time. Now here it gets tricky, because Tsunade left Konoha after the 2nd war. Jiraya didn't return to Konoha for 2 years after losing to Hanzou, so clearly it must have been either during the Hanzou fight, or before it. So if you ask me, they used all disposable summon in that fight But here I am just assuming things as well, but it is ore likely that they used them, than what you assume.

    I will give you that, Tsunade probably didn't have that byakugou seal, since Oro didn't know about it. Of course it's possible, she didn't use it, but more likely she didn't have it.

    The last thing is that Jiraya had already learned sage mode, when they had that fight. Did he use it? We don't know, but he certainly had it. It was clearly stated by Fukasaku (and as I recall, we saw flashbacks of young Jiraya meeting the old priest toad).

    Also you mention the circumstances, surely we don't know them, but this goes for any past fight. Madara may as well be >>>>>>>> Hashirama, we don't know, but lets not base theories on unknown facts, it's silly. Besides Hanzou let the 3 sannin live, because Konoha was gonna win the war anyway. He had simply no reason to kill them, since the outcome of the war, was obvious. So they most likely weren't fighting alone, they were just the last shinobi standing.

    In the end, you base your argument, on edo tensei Hanzou losing to Mifune. Pretty vague, since Mifune isn't that bad either. Not only was he immune to his poison, he also seem to have some pretty neat sword techniques. Of course, more would be expected from Hanzou, but again it was in edo tensei. In general the standard edo tensei summon is weaker than its real self. That is, if the summon isn't being directly controlled or wants to win the fight himself.

    Anyway, as I said, read the chapter about Pain, Hanzou was a fearsome shinobi, besides the strength of a shinobi, should be measures by his actions/reputation, not what he can do as some edo tensei puppet
     
         
    Last edited by thegame; 01-28-2013 at 10:05 PM.

  2. #77
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    Re: Myth Busting Thread #3 - Hanzo was not this incredible, super kage level shinobi

    Quote Originally Posted by thegame View Post
    Mhh, you just make a bunch of assumptions, which you have no knowledge about. Fact is, more evidence points against you. I revise you to read chapter 369 - About Pain. Jiraya is clearly amazed that Hanzou could be defeated by a single man. And we're talking about grown up, prime Jiraya here.
    This has been covered. That's not really what he says. He is surprised a single guy could beat Hanzo, but that's after we're explicitly told about all Hanzo's security precautions and such. He could equally be surprised someone he's never heard of could do all that. And what is Jiraiya's reaction after? He doesn't say "gee, if this guy could single handedly get past all Hanzo's security and still beat Hanzo, he must be stronger than me". Instead he says "yeh, this guy could be strong, I'll take the key out as a precaution, but I think I'll be fine to go fight him... shouldn't take too long". So clearly Jiraiya is backing himself to beat someone who was apparently much stronger than Hanzo.

    The other thing is, you make assumptions on facts, like Tsunade not having her seal, and that the 3 of them didn't use their summons. How do you know? You don't.
    Well, we don't see them, and even in the anime (which suggests they had them during the war), the summons are depicted as substantially smaller than they would grow to be. It may just be that by the time Hanzo rocked up they were too exhausted to use them. I'm not going to just grant that the Sannin had them 25-35 years ago, just because it suits your argument. Tsunade didn't have her seal, and we know she hadn't developed regen yet (as you admit) because Oro didn't know about it... which says nothing of her even better Regen tech, which she didn't use until the Madara fight.

    So clearly the 3 had been summoned together at some point in time. Now here it gets tricky, because Tsunade left Konoha after the 2nd war. Jiraya didn't return to Konoha for 2 years after losing to Hanzou
    Over 3 years actually.

    The last thing is that Jiraya had already learned sage mode, when they had that fight. Did he use it? We don't know, but he certainly had it. It was clearly stated by Fukasaku (and as I recall, we saw flashbacks of young Jiraya meeting the old priest toad).
    There is a world of difference between knowing how to use Sage energy, and being able to go into Sage mode. There is no evidence Jiraiya went into it, and if he did why would he have stopped using it during the fight (given it not only makes him vastly stronger, but doesn't run out of energy)? It's pretty unlikely he used it, or was even able to use it yet.

    This has all been gone over in depth. There's little reason to give Hanzo much cred, and lots of reason not to (the latter evidence being more persuasive, and less hyperbolic). Repeating arguments that were long ago debunked is not constructive, and you should stop it.
     
         

  3. #78
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    Re: Myth Busting Thread #3 - Hanzo was not this incredible, super kage level shinobi

    Quote Originally Posted by ItachiStyle View Post
    This has been covered. That's not really what he says. He is surprised a single guy could beat Hanzo, but that's after we're explicitly told about all Hanzo's security precautions and such. He could equally be surprised someone he's never heard of could do all that. And what is Jiraiya's reaction after? He doesn't say "gee, if this guy could single handedly get past all Hanzo's security and still beat Hanzo, he must be stronger than me". Instead he says "yeh, this guy could be strong, I'll take the key out as a precaution, but I think I'll be fine to go fight him... shouldn't take too long". So clearly Jiraiya is backing himself to beat someone who was apparently much stronger than Hanzo.
    Mhh, you do realize that you don't need to be stronger than someone to beat him? Jiraya originally infiltrated to obtain information on Pain. What he found out, led to the flashback, where the elder said, he one day would need to make a very important choice. Jiraya thought that day had come, and he knew he had to face his former student.
    Also you are terribly wrong, thinking Jiraya went there to fight Pain. It was Pain that engaged Jiraya, rather it was Konan. Jiraya had disguised himself as the guy he interrogated.
    When Jiraya learned Pains true strength, he ran away for a moment, then they tried a sick OP genjutsu, and even later, when he could still escape, he made his "choice".
    Truly IMO Hanzou is kage material. He led a country for long, and showed explicit leader material through good negotiations and such.


    Well, we don't see them, and even in the anime (which suggests they had them during the war), the summons are depicted as substantially smaller than they would grow to be. It may just be that by the time Hanzo rocked up they were too exhausted to use them. I'm not going to just grant that the Sannin had them 25-35 years ago, just because it suits your argument. Tsunade didn't have her seal, and we know she hadn't developed regen yet (as you admit) because Oro didn't know about it... which says nothing of her even better Regen tech, which she didn't use until the Madara fight.
    Yeah, they were smaller, but they most likely still had them. We don't know about their strength at the time. The only early picture we saw of Gamabunta, he is still quite large. And this is, when Jiraya is like 12-15 years old. I simply wanted to point out that it's more likely that they actually used all summons in that particular fight.


    There is a world of difference between knowing how to use Sage energy, and being able to go into Sage mode. There is no evidence Jiraiya went into it, and if he did why would he have stopped using it during the fight (given it not only makes him vastly stronger, but doesn't run out of energy)? It's pretty unlikely he used it, or was even able to use it yet.
    Hmm, Jiraya was never able to use it. He needed to summon both elder toads. If they admitted defeat, he would unsummon them. That would be natural of course. I also don't think he used them though. It seems his relationship with them is rather personal, but still if it was to protect his comrades, I have no doubt that he would summon them. Again, no evidence.

    This has all been gone over in depth. There's little reason to give Hanzo much cred, and lots of reason not to (the latter evidence being more persuasive, and less hyperbolic). Repeating arguments that were long ago debunked is not constructive, and you should stop it.
    Well, the way of shooting Hanzou down, is not arguable IMO. Basing it one fight, where he was in edo tensei state, is not very provable. It's not like Sasori or Deidara used their full arsenal of jutsu either, and they even wanted to fight. Hanzou was in an emotional state, realizing all his errors, as he saw the united shinobi alliance, and the person he once defeated.

    I don't know, why Kishi chose Hanzou to give Mifune (and the Samurai) some credit. But most people agree that it was just a plotted fight, which allowed Mifune to win. Besides Hanzou didn't use any ninjutsu in that fight. I think Mifune did something in the start to prevent it, so tbh, you can't really use it for anything at all. Kishi had to give the Samurai some shine, and whether it had been Mifune or perhaps one of the 3 kages, does not matter. I don't see that fight as much valid evidence. Hanzou has been given enough credit throughout the manga, but we will never reach an agreement on that, I bet.
     
         

  4. #79
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    Re: Myth Busting Thread #3 - Hanzo was not this incredible, super kage level shinobi

    Also, you may wanna read through their fight again. Hanzou was able to even neglect the orders from Kabutos talisman due to his feelings and belief. Hanzou actually defeated himself with his own poison.
    Samurai uses IAI, which is a very fast strike with the sword. The opening created from performing seals, is enough for the samurai using this. So it's quite strong. So once a samurai gets in close combat of a shinobi relying on hand seals, he has a huge advantage. Though I wonder, why he couldn't use some replacement thing to escape, but that is why, I call it plot. Besides of that, he could likely have some strong jutsu to fight Jiraya and Oro. Else it wouldn't make sense. The 3 of them are/were still referred to by the name Hanzou gave them, so his reputation is without doubt
     
         
    Last edited by thegame; 01-29-2013 at 01:34 AM.

  5. #80
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    Re: Myth Busting Thread #3 - Hanzo was not this incredible, super kage level shinobi

    Quote Originally Posted by thegame View Post
    Mhh, you do realize that you don't need to be stronger than someone to beat him? Jiraya originally infiltrated to obtain information on Pain. What he found out, led to the flashback, where the elder said, he one day would need to make a very important choice. Jiraya thought that day had come, and he knew he had to face his former student.
    Also you are terribly wrong, thinking Jiraya went there to fight Pain. It was Pain that engaged Jiraya, rather it was Konan. Jiraya had disguised himself as the guy he interrogated.
    When Jiraya learned Pains true strength, he ran away for a moment, then they tried a sick OP genjutsu, and even later, when he could still escape, he made his "choice".
    Truly IMO Hanzou is kage material. He led a country for long, and showed explicit leader material through good negotiations and such.
    This is a minor point (compared to your usual errors), but it's important to point out Jiraiya was not "just going to get intel", he tells the frog key inside him as much; "I'm going to fight someone strong" as his justification for removing him. So yeh, Jiraya thought he could take the guy who single handedly got through all Hanzo's security, and killed Hanzo... that makes it pretty clear he thinks he's stronger than Hanzo. He also tells the frog "I shouldn't be long", so in "I don't expect it to take long to beat this guy".

    Yeah, they were smaller, but they most likely still had them. We don't know about their strength at the time. The only early picture we saw of Gamabunta, he is still quite large. And this is, when Jiraya is like 12-15 years old. I simply wanted to point out that it's more likely that they actually used all summons in that particular fight.
    There is no evidence they did. There is evidence Hanzo is owned by Mifune. When confronted with 2 bits of evidence, one of which is weak and ambiguous, and the other one is strong and clear, you go with the strong one.

    Well, the way of shooting Hanzou down, is not arguable IMO. Basing it one fight, where he was in edo tensei state, is not very provable. It's not like Sasori or Deidara used their full arsenal of jutsu either, and they even wanted to fight. Hanzou was in an emotional state, realizing all his errors, as he saw the united shinobi alliance, and the person he once defeated.
    In the case of Sasori, he was handicapped by not having any of his tools, etc, which in his case was what made him so strong. Deidara looked plenty strong fighting Onoki, and was plot-no-jutsu'd away quickly in the next fight he was in, so that he couldn't kill everyone. Deidara always had some weaknesses, so it's not surprising he'd go down to someone... he was a guy who was hard to rank for that very reason (great long distance, weak up close). Hanzo was seemingly at full strength, and he loses to Mifune... his Salamander (long hyped by Hanzo fans) also has a very poor showing.

    I don't know, why Kishi chose Hanzou to give Mifune (and the Samurai) some credit. But most people agree that it was just a plotted fight, which allowed Mifune to win. Besides Hanzou didn't use any ninjutsu in that fight. I think Mifune did something in the start to prevent it, so tbh, you can't really use it for anything at all. Kishi had to give the Samurai some shine, and whether it had been Mifune or perhaps one of the 3 kages, does not matter. I don't see that fight as much valid evidence. Hanzou has been given enough credit throughout the manga, but we will never reach an agreement on that, I bet.
    It doesn't really matter if you disagree with Kishi. The fight is what it is, and in it Hanzo fought how he fought. That fight is the best and most in depth we saw his fighting abilities... and they were so-so. If you don't like it, that's too bad, but it is what it is.

    Hanzou was able to even neglect the orders from Kabutos talisman due to his feelings and belief. Hanzou actually defeated himself with his own poison.
    Samurai uses IAI, which is a very fast strike with the sword. The opening created from performing seals, is enough for the samurai using this. So it's quite strong. So once a samurai gets in close combat of a shinobi relying on hand seals, he has a huge advantage
    1) Willpower is nice, but it has nothing to do with power, which is something wholly different. Hanzo has "will", but his actual power is inconsequential compared to Kage level guys.
    2) Yes... I get what it is... and as I've explained repeatedly, it is pathetic that Hanzo can't counter IAI. What Kage level ninja are helpless without seals? I can't think of any
     
         

  6. #81
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    Re: Myth Busting Thread #3 - Hanzo was not this incredible, super kage level shinobi

    hanzo only lost to nagato because he stopped training for many years cause he was paranoid...hanzo didnt fight evenly with the sannin, as it was stated in the manga they were simply the only ones of a konohoa brigade that survived an attack from hanzo not that they fought him evenly. get your facts straight and research your points before you just start throwing your opinions around like projectile vomit
     
         

  7. #82
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    Re: Myth Busting Thread #3 - Hanzo was not this incredible, super kage level shinobi

    Well they were strong enough to face a well known shinobi who people feared because of his strength. They withstood his attacks and survived the battle which would mean they are strong.

    Lost to Mifune? What? As we recall from the manga he defeated Mifune. He was defeated as an edo because he lost his power and his will. He didn't fight like how he did. He gave himself up by using the poison to paralyse himself and free his control from Kabuto. He retreated from Nagato because of the Demonic Statue. If he was touched by it he would die, it's not running away, it a tactical strategy. It was too much for him. As I recall Danzo ran away aswell so does that mean he is a coward, Danzo ran from Sasuke, is he a coward?

    Just saying Hanzo was strong and was even in Sannin or Below Kage level. They don't show characters in the manga and make flashbacks and a story for them if they are not powerful.
     
         

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    Re: Myth Busting Thread #3 - Hanzo was not this incredible, super kage level shinobi

    Quote Originally Posted by BossManKakashi View Post
    hanzo only lost to nagato because he stopped training for many years cause he was paranoid...hanzo didnt fight evenly with the sannin, as it was stated in the manga they were simply the only ones of a konohoa brigade that survived an attack from hanzo not that they fought him evenly. get your facts straight and research your points before you just start throwing your opinions around like projectile vomit
    Interesting. Show me where in the manga it says Hanzo's skills got worse because of lack of training.
     
         

  9. #84
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    Re: Myth Busting Thread #3 - Hanzo was not this incredible, super kage level shinobi

    Quote Originally Posted by ItachiStyle View Post
    This is a minor point (compared to your usual errors), but it's important to point out Jiraiya was not "just going to get intel", he tells the frog key inside him as much; "I'm going to fight someone strong" as his justification for removing him. So yeh, Jiraya thought he could take the guy who single handedly got through all Hanzo's security, and killed Hanzo... that makes it pretty clear he thinks he's stronger than Hanzo. He also tells the frog "I shouldn't be long", so in "I don't expect it to take long to beat this guy".
    While you may have a point, I do remember having this discussion in a old thread before (something about if Jiraya actually thought he could win against Pain), and he said that Jiraya didn't go with the intentions to fight Pain, and he used viz translation (or so he said), where the word "may" was.
    Nonetheless, since I can't find it, and am pretty busy atm, lets just say, Jiraya did go with the intentions to beat him. This still does not mean that he thought he is stronger than Pain (or Hanzou for the sake of your argument), besides you can't really argue that way in the first place, I mean Hanzou would still beat Jiraya, even if Pain beat Hanzou. Pain is immune to poison after all, since he is controlling the bodies from far away. Paralyzing poison, of course, we can't know, but it's likely to believe even that.
    Now to my point. Jiraya wanted to sneak in to gain more information, and look for Pain. He disguised hoping to possibly being able to ambush him. Even a fodder Jonin can kill a top10 shinobi with the perfect ambush/trap
    Jiraya used a certain technique to disguise himself, however, Konan saw through it, because she already knew the technique. Jiraya wasn't prepared for that. Thus he had to fight.
    Lastly, had he known it was the rinnengan, he had probably s


    There is no evidence they did. There is evidence Hanzo is owned by Mifune. When confronted with 2 bits of evidence, one of which is weak and ambiguous, and the other one is strong and clear, you go with the strong one.
    Uhm, I already explained that fight as well. Mifune isn't bad. He was hit by Hanzou's poison from his Salamander, and Hanzou didn't remember him at the time, so practically, if Mifune hadn't been immune he had lost big time... Besides, Mifune is pretty strong at close combat, and in the end, Mifune didn't win, Hanzou took himself out. Mifune just wan their clash with swords.

    In the case of Sasori, he was handicapped by not having any of his tools, etc, which in his case was what made him so strong. Deidara looked plenty strong fighting Onoki, and was plot-no-jutsu'd away quickly in the next fight he was in, so that he couldn't kill everyone. Deidara always had some weaknesses, so it's not surprising he'd go down to someone... he was a guy who was hard to rank for that very reason (great long distance, weak up close). Hanzo was seemingly at full strength, and he loses to Mifune... his Salamander (long hyped by Hanzo fans) also has a very poor showing.
    Uhm, the Salamander suddenly comes up from the ground. A completely unpredictable attack that would kill any shinobi, not immune/resistant to its poison.


    It doesn't really matter if you disagree with Kishi. The fight is what it is, and in it Hanzo fought how he fought. That fight is the best and most in depth we saw his fighting abilities... and they were so-so. If you don't like it, that's too bad, but it is what it is.
    You keep denying manga facts, it's not suitable for your arguments. Hanzous fighting abilities weren't shown. He said no shinobi could use hand seals, while fighting a Samurai, who uses IAI. He had to beat him weapon against weapon.


    1) Willpower is nice, but it has nothing to do with power, which is something wholly different. Hanzo has "will", but his actual power is inconsequential compared to Kage level guys.
    2) Yes... I get what it is... and as I've explained repeatedly, it is pathetic that Hanzo can't counter IAI. What Kage level ninja are helpless without seals? I can't think of any
    Ugh, you are clueless on this fight really. Hanzou has a counter for IAI. He breathes poison without hand seals, has his Salamander hidden in the ground from before a fight has even begun. He has counters, but when meeting someone, he already fought once, and he allowed him to live (which made him resistant to the poison), then to meet him again would be a huge disadvantage. Besides Hanzou was skilled with his weapon, since he already beat Mifune once. But as Mifune says, a clash of swords comes down to ones belief/feelings. A person is his katana. The Samurai was taken in to this, to give a certain perspective to a certain clash of fans in Japan. Mifune is by any means kage level. He is commander in the alliance after all.

    Your argument is like saying, if a Kage meets a person, who only has counters against him, but that person is a lower level than him, the kage is suddenly even lower? Hanzou met Mifune, who had only counters for him (poison immunity). That is why he lost. If you use only fire ninjutsu, and you meet Kisame, you are pretty ****ed as well. No matter how skilled as a kage you are.
     
         

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    Re: Myth Busting Thread #3 - Hanzo was not this incredible, super kage level shinobi

    Quote Originally Posted by thegame View Post
    While you may have a point, I do remember having this discussion in a old thread before (something about if Jiraya actually thought he could win against Pain), and he said that Jiraya didn't go with the intentions to fight Pain, and he used viz translation (or so he said), where the word "may" was.
    Nonetheless, since I can't find it, and am pretty busy atm, lets just say, Jiraya did go with the intentions to beat him. This still does not mean that he thought he is stronger than Pain (or Hanzou for the sake of your argument), besides you can't really argue that way in the first place, I mean Hanzou would still beat Jiraya, even if Pain beat Hanzou. Pain is immune to poison after all, since he is controlling the bodies from far away. Paralyzing poison, of course, we can't know, but it's likely to believe even that.
    Now to my point. Jiraya wanted to sneak in to gain more information, and look for Pain. He disguised hoping to possibly being able to ambush him. Even a fodder Jonin can kill a top10 shinobi with the perfect ambush/trap
    Jiraya used a certain technique to disguise himself, however, Konan saw through it, because she already knew the technique. Jiraya wasn't prepared for that. Thus he had to fight.
    Lastly, had he known it was the rinnengan, he had probably s
    There are alot of words there, and the only relevant ones are "you may have a point", the rest of what you said doesn't change what I said.

    Uhm, I already explained that fight as well. Mifune isn't bad. He was hit by Hanzou's poison from his Salamander, and Hanzou didn't remember him at the time, so practically, if Mifune hadn't been immune he had lost big time... Besides, Mifune is pretty strong at close combat, and in the end, Mifune didn't win, Hanzou took himself out. Mifune just wan their clash with swords.
    Yes, Mifune is bad... at least in the sense that any Kage level ninja losing to him should be embarassed. Many Jonin would mop the floor with him. This has been explained multiple times.

    Uhm, the Salamander suddenly comes up from the ground. A completely unpredictable attack that would kill any shinobi, not immune/resistant to its poison.
    Yes... the only counter to his deadly Salamander is to... um, dodge it... like lots of ninjas will be able to do... or if that fails, cut/blast your way out... something that is so difficult, Mifune can do it with a sword. Lots of traps, including Kankuro's crappy Salamander puppet, come up from the ground suddenly... what of it? good ninja will just dodge. Am I supposed to be impressed by this ability?

    [quote] You keep denying manga facts, it's not suitable for your arguments. Hanzous fighting abilities weren't shown. He said no shinobi could use hand seals, while fighting a Samurai, who uses IAI. He had to beat him weapon against weapon.

    Kage level shinobi don't need to use seals to perform jutsu, or have a work around. No Kage level ninja would be shut down by IAI. In fact I can think of many Jonin who wouldn't. It's a pathetic showing from Hanzo, something that has been broken down and explained in excruciating depth, and which you just ignore, so you can repeat "he used IAI!!!!", as though none of us had considered this before... wow, IAI! I didn't address than in 10 of my previous posts...
     
         

  11. #86
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    Re: Myth Busting Thread #3 - Hanzo was not this incredible, super kage level shinobi

    Wow I am amazed about how much people care to defend their opinion about Hanzo..another long dead irrelevant to the story character.

    Ok not so irrelevant as he showed mercy for the 3 sannin who then proceeded to show mercy to the 3 Ame orphans who then formed Akatsuki who collected the Bijuus and eventually revived the Juubi which has already killed Neji and will kill some more.

    So yeah Hanzo deserves all the above essays I guess because he is the root of all evil :P
     
         

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    Re: Myth Busting Thread #3 - Hanzo was not this incredible, super kage level shinobi

    Quote Originally Posted by thegame View Post
    While you may have a point, I do remember having this discussion in a old thread before (something about if Jiraya actually thought he could win against Pain), and he said that Jiraya didn't go with the intentions to fight Pain, and he used viz translation (or so he said), where the word "may" was.
    Nonetheless, since I can't find it, and am pretty busy atm, lets just say, Jiraya did go with the intentions to beat him. This still does not mean that he thought he is stronger than Pain (or Hanzou for the sake of your argument), besides you can't really argue that way in the first place, I mean Hanzou would still beat Jiraya, even if Pain beat Hanzou. Pain is immune to poison after all, since he is controlling the bodies from far away. Paralyzing poison, of course, we can't know, but it's likely to believe even that.
    Now to my point. Jiraya wanted to sneak in to gain more information, and look for Pain. He disguised hoping to possibly being able to ambush him. Even a fodder Jonin can kill a top10 shinobi with the perfect ambush/trap
    Jiraya used a certain technique to disguise himself, however, Konan saw through it, because she already knew the technique. Jiraya wasn't prepared for that. Thus he had to fight.
    Lastly, had he known it was the rinnengan, he had probably s
    There are alot of words there, and the only relevant ones are "you may have a point", the rest of what you said doesn't change what I said.

    Uhm, I already explained that fight as well. Mifune isn't bad. He was hit by Hanzou's poison from his Salamander, and Hanzou didn't remember him at the time, so practically, if Mifune hadn't been immune he had lost big time... Besides, Mifune is pretty strong at close combat, and in the end, Mifune didn't win, Hanzou took himself out. Mifune just wan their clash with swords.
    Yes, Mifune is bad... at least in the sense that any Kage level ninja losing to him should be embarassed. Many Jonin would mop the floor with him. This has been explained multiple times.

    Uhm, the Salamander suddenly comes up from the ground. A completely unpredictable attack that would kill any shinobi, not immune/resistant to its poison.
    Yes... the only counter to his deadly Salamander is to... um, dodge it... like lots of ninjas will be able to do... or if that fails, cut/blast your way out... something that is so difficult, Mifune can do it with a sword. Lots of traps, including Kankuro's crappy Salamander puppet, come up from the ground suddenly... what of it? good ninja will just dodge. Am I supposed to be impressed by this ability?

    You keep denying manga facts, it's not suitable for your arguments. Hanzous fighting abilities weren't shown. He said no shinobi could use hand seals, while fighting a Samurai, who uses IAI. He had to beat him weapon against weapon.
    Kage level shinobi don't need to use seals to perform jutsu, or have a work around. No Kage level ninja would be shut down by IAI. In fact I can think of many Jonin who wouldn't. It's a pathetic showing from Hanzo, something that has been broken down and explained in excruciating depth, and which you just ignore, so you can repeat "he used IAI!!!!", as though none of us had considered this before... wow, IAI! I didn't address than in 10 of my previous posts...
     
         

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    Re: Myth Busting Thread #3 - Hanzo was not this incredible, super kage level shinobi

    you guys are underestimating him way too much jairiah couldnt believe somone beat hanzo even after knowing that nagato had rennagan so that makes him be a super beast cuz jman was high kage level
     
         

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    Re: Myth Busting Thread #3 - Hanzo was not this incredible, super kage level shinobi

    Hanzo was not exaggerated.....

    Hanzos claim to fame was not tiring with the Sannins... You have it backwards... The Sannins claim to gain was tieing with Hanzo.. Hanzo was already knowned as a beast and for jiraiya tsunade and oro to survive a fight agaisnt him and be recognized that's what made them famous and reknowned...

    Hanzo lost to Pain who was ridicoulsy strong.. Pain killed Jiraiya, leader of an organization that included Itachi and Oro at one time, and single handedly destroyed the Leaf... If it wasnt for Jiraiyas intel Nauto would have not beaten Pain, Naruto would not have sage mode neither...

    Hanzo defeated a younger Mifune but lost to a wiser more experienced Mifune and that's not taking away from Hanzo but giving props to Mifune.. and this fact is due to the reoccurring theme of Naruto that the philosophies of the old will be proven wrong and beaten by the philosophies of the new... Mifune had grown and became wise, he knew the errors of his past and the errors of Hanzos and that's why Hanzo lost.. I forgot what the philosophy was exactly but this always happen.. When people fight in Naruto its always a fight about who has he better principle, who has the better outlook on life or better philosophy or "nindo way"... Those who hold on to cruel, brutal theories based on past and life cruelties like Obito and Nagato or Zabuza and even Sasuke will always lose to those with optimistic theories like Naruto Kakashi Sakura Shikumaru etc...
     
         

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    Re: Myth Busting Thread #3 - Hanzo was not this incredible, super kage level shinobi

    Quote Originally Posted by ItachiStyle View Post
    There are alot of words there, and the only relevant ones are "you may have a point", the rest of what you said doesn't change what I said.
    Well it's sad you can't consider anything, but your own beliefs, it's fine we have different opinions, but in the end, this entire thread and discussion is a matter of opinion, which contains little to no evidence at all.

    Yes, Mifune is bad... at least in the sense that any Kage level ninja losing to him should be embarassed. Many Jonin would mop the floor with him. This has been explained multiple times.
    No it hasn't? Surely if you start with a distance to him, it would be rather easy. But please explain to me, how Mei beats Mifune, starting 2 meters from each other.

    Yes... the only counter to his deadly Salamander is to... um, dodge it... like lots of ninjas will be able to do... or if that fails, cut/blast your way out... something that is so difficult, Mifune can do it with a sword. Lots of traps, including Kankuro's crappy Salamander puppet, come up from the ground suddenly... what of it? good ninja will just dodge. Am I supposed to be impressed by this ability?
    Mhh, you are saying that, which is correct, but the time you waste while dodging it, creates another opening for your opponent, in this case Hanzou. So yeah, easy to dodge, but seriously, you can't think any longer than one is in front of you...


    Kage level shinobi don't need to use seals to perform jutsu, or have a work around. No Kage level ninja would be shut down by IAI. In fact I can think of many Jonin who wouldn't. It's a pathetic showing from Hanzo, something that has been broken down and explained in excruciating depth, and which you just ignore, so you can repeat "he used IAI!!!!", as though none of us had considered this before... wow, IAI! I didn't address than in 10 of my previous posts...
    Mei would Spitting out lava/boil still requires you to move your hands to your mouth. I am ignore it? No, you my good man, is ignoring what is said directly in the manga. I can't argue with you any more, it's pathetic to just ignore manga facts, and believe your own logic explanation on some forum. Kishi, after all, is the deciding factor. And your entire reply just proved you completely ignored IAI, and several other possibilities.
     
         

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    Re: Myth Busting Thread #3 - Hanzo was not this incredible, super kage level shinobi

    Quote Originally Posted by thegame View Post
    Well it's sad you can't consider anything, but your own beliefs, it's fine we have different opinions, but in the end, this entire thread and discussion is a matter of opinion, which contains little to no evidence at all.
    All the evidence strongly supports my view... you just keep speculating maybe it doesn't. Occam has a razor he wants to show you.

    No it hasn't? Surely if you start with a distance to him, it would be rather easy. But please explain to me, how Mei beats Mifune, starting 2 meters from each other.
    Sure. Let's put any Kage level ninja in place of Hanzo- locking swords with Mifune a few feet away. Mei spits lava globs at him (seals required- zero). Mifune dies. End fight. Kakashi locks blades with Mifune... then he just Kamui's him. No seals required. Mifune dies. Darui uses Black Lightning. Zero seals required. Mifune dies. Yamato attacks him with wood style. Zero seals required. Mifune dies. Shi Sui (or any Uchiha at all) locks swords with Mifune. Genjutsu. Mifune dies. Oro locks swords with Mifune. Snake attacks (no seals required). Mifune dies. Jiraiya locks swords with Mifune. Hair attack. Mifune dies. Tsunade or A locks blades with Mifune. Punch Mifunes head off/break his sword. Mifune dies. On and on. Virtually every good character has a work around to using seals, as was explained over and over to you in this thread. Not having one tells us something about how mediocre Hanzo is. It is even more telling that in order to pump Hanzo, you have to create a scenario in which they start 2 meters from each other, when in reality Mifune and Hanzo were much further apart when the fight began (and Hanzo knew about Mifune knowing IAI anyway, or at least had been told he did).

    Mhh, you are saying that, which is correct, but the time you waste while dodging it, creates another opening for your opponent, in this case Hanzou. So yeah, easy to dodge, but seriously, you can't think any longer than one is in front of you...
    I'm pretty sure while the Sannin are atop their giant summons, they're not going to be too worried about being swallowed by a Salamander that comes up to Bunta's knee at best. Hanzo might be worried though, as he'll be getting attacked by guys who can one shot an area the size of a small village like (a weakened) Jiraiya (who couldn't control his Chakra) effortlessly did. It's embarassing for you to think Hanzo is close to the Sannin in their prime.

    Mei would Spitting out lava/boil still requires you to move your hands to your mouth. I am ignore it?
    What? Mei's lava globs attack doesn't require any seals at all.
     
         
    Last edited by ItachiStyle; 01-29-2013 at 11:29 PM.

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    Re: Myth Busting Thread #3 - Hanzo was not this incredible, super kage level shinobi

    Damn, this is hottest thread..
     
         

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    Re: Myth Busting Thread #3 - Hanzo was not this incredible, super kage level shinobi

    Uhm, it's a disgrace seeing how little you understand of the usage of jutsu in the manga. Almost every jutsu actually requires a hand seal, it's just that some people perfect it to the limit, where they need just 1 seal. Mei needs 1 seal to spit lava. Also you need time, when spitting something, being it fire, water, lava, or whatever. You should really read some more into this. In general, we don't see the shinobi doing all the seals, since if Kishi had to draw every image of it, it would fill a lot, we just see 1 seal, typically the ending seal, and then the jutsu.

    Of course there are other ways to mold chakra, but this just results in simple jutsu like rasengan or chidori, but this is a different way of manipulating chakra. Even when you use your mouth to manipulate chakra, you need at least one hand seal to control or manipulate the shape of the jutsu. You can insult me all you want, but it's pretty clear to me that you make huge misconceptions, and only follow your own ideas about characters. Surely Mifune is weak, but if you have a very short starting distance, it's different.

    Of course there are the special cases, where jutsu are manipulated through something else beside of the users will. Like Gaaras sand or Susanoo, but then again, I said from the start, beside of these cases, there are clearly shinobi on kage level, who with a short starting distance to Mifune, and no weapon, would get raped instantly. That is IAI. But if you just have some very strong tajutsu, you can of course easily beat him. But as I said, Mei doesn't have any of this, she would lose. And no, she can't just spit instantly lava, Mifune will be faster. Manga gives evidence enough.
     
         

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    Re: Myth Busting Thread #3 - Hanzo was not this incredible, super kage level shinobi

    Quote Originally Posted by thegame View Post
    Uhm, it's a disgrace seeing how little you understand of the usage of jutsu in the manga. Almost every jutsu actually requires a hand seal, it's just that some people perfect it to the limit, where they need just 1 seal. Mei needs 1 seal to spit lava. Also you need time, when spitting something, being it fire, water, lava, or whatever. You should really read some more into this. In general, we don't see the shinobi doing all the seals, since if Kishi had to draw every image of it, it would fill a lot, we just see 1 seal, typically the ending seal, and then the jutsu.

    Of course there are other ways to mold chakra, but this just results in simple jutsu like rasengan or chidori, but this is a different way of manipulating chakra. Even when you use your mouth to manipulate chakra, you need at least one hand seal to control or manipulate the shape of the jutsu. You can insult me all you want, but it's pretty clear to me that you make huge misconceptions, and only follow your own ideas about characters. Surely Mifune is weak, but if you have a very short starting distance, it's different.

    Of course there are the special cases, where jutsu are manipulated through something else beside of the users will. Like Gaaras sand or Susanoo, but then again, I said from the start, beside of these cases, there are clearly shinobi on kage level, who with a short starting distance to Mifune, and no weapon, would get raped instantly. That is IAI. But if you just have some very strong tajutsu, you can of course easily beat him. But as I said, Mei doesn't have any of this, she would lose. And no, she can't just spit instantly lava, Mifune will be faster. Manga gives evidence enough.
    What you just wrote was both irrelevant and a lie. Jutsu do not all require seals, and Mei's lava globs require no seals. That's why when she does them, we don't see any seals (in the manga nor anime), and that's why the wiki lists zero seals as required. For you to invent a seal to further your argument is disgraceful. What "seal" does she need? Ox? Boar? Please tell me. Maybe it's a new seal we haven't been told about.

    It's like you didn't even follow the argument... yes, most jutsu require seals... but mos Kage level shinobi either can do jutsu without seals, or can circumvent this weakness... this was explained in excruciatingly slow language, though apparently not slow enough for you. Hanzo can't... and that sucks for him. I mean, I just named dozens of shinobi who would have raped Mifune in those circumstances (and there are many, many more), and all you can do in reply is ignore those examples and talk about how it's "a special case". I mean, how special of a case is it if hundreds of shinobi can do it? It's Hanzo who looks crap, because he has no work around for it... embarassingly. Even Konohamaru could work around it with the rasengan. Some kid.
     
         

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    Re: Myth Busting Thread #3 - Hanzo was not this incredible, super kage level shinobi

    his hype is just like any kage's i suppose. the sand thought third kazekage couldnt lose.
    his main danger is poison. no one except chiyo is the slightest bit prepared for it and no one except sasori is immune
     
         

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    Re: Myth Busting Thread #3 - Hanzo was not this incredible, super kage level shinobi

    Hanzo only ever lost to Pain. Deal with it. He was Kage level. He took out a regiment of Konoha's best troops on his own, and he took out the Sannin. Jiraiya held him in very high regard too. Fail troll thread deserves 1 star.
     
         

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    Re: Myth Busting Thread #3 - Hanzo was not this incredible, super kage level shinobi

    All your objections were dealt with already. Jiraiya held him in such high regard, he told the frog with the key to Naruto's seal "I'm going to fight someone strong now... it shouldn't take too long". As in "I'm taking you out as a precaution, but I have every confidence I can beat this guy who single handedly got through all Hanzo's security precautions and defences and killed him and all his men".
     
         

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    Re: Myth Busting Thread #3 - Hanzo was not this incredible, super kage level shinobi

    you people are stupid if you think you can judge hanzos former strength by how he lost to mifune. mifune himself said that hanzo was not as strong as he used to be and that he lacked the passion that made him that strong. mifune also said hanzo was nowhere neare as good with his sword as he used to be because of his lost passion. also mifune was a great match because he knew hanzos style from previous experience, experience which gained him resistance from hanzos infamous poison. on top of that mifune had special sword skills built to stop a shinobi from doing handsigns and if you think that orochimarus snake jutsus or jiraiyas hair jutsus can beagt mifunes sword skills then your mistaken. rasengan could but only if it was combined with sage mode the way naruto did to beat 3rd raikage. fact is if that weakened hanzou could buy time to use even one jutsu it couldve been a different story.i dont pretend to know how strong hanzou is and i cant rate his prime strength. and i f you want proof to this justy reread the mifune vs hanzou fight and listen to everything mifune says. dont call me on facts you can easily find yourself, its your choice to be ignorant
     
         

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    Re: Myth Busting Thread #3 - Hanzo was not this incredible, super kage level shinobi

    Mifune didn't say that, what he said was far more abstract and vague. At no point did he say "you've become weaker Hanzo" or even "your sword skills have declined", instead we get some meta-wankery about how his "will" was less, which isn't the same thing as power, and doesn't change any of the points raised in this thread (like Hanzo being helpless without hand seals). As has been explained, good shinobi would have eaten Mifune alive, IAI or not.
     
         

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    Re: Myth Busting Thread #3 - Hanzo was not this incredible, super kage level shinobi

    Jiraya was surprised someone beat him maybecause before jirarya died, there wasnt many people as strong as himself (j-man) that was introduced or known at the time other than The hokages and some akatsuki members. J-man in sage mode would wreck hanzo. Hanzo wasnt stronger than many akatsuki members if you ask me.
     
         

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