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  1. #1
    Senior Member Sanguis's Avatar
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    Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Through all the barriers we have overcome as a species this is one we still have a firm grip on, I don't see why we hold so dear to the concept of wrong and right. At the end of the day all it does to the species is bring:
    • separation of between humanity
    • righteous pride
    • unfairness


    The most important one; it is too based on ones selfish need and too little for the benefit of others. Maybe it all boils down to the selfishness of humanity, but if we keep this concept humanity is never going to come to terms with one another and I shudder to think what will happen when we get civilised in space.


    Now I know if we do get rid of this something else will have to take its place. I am just speaking my mind here but I thought of the concept of Progression of Humanity and the Delay of humanity and we should have a common goal (e.g. to learn everything, or explore everywhere) so this concept stands true. It would be based on what makes humanity go froward(progress) and what makes us go backwards(delay).

    Now I don't know anyway this can actually be countered but I may just blinded by my own thoughts. So if you see a counter to this then please do tell.

    I don't know what peoples reactions are going to be to this, maybe you think I am just an idiot who shouldn't make these types of threads again or you may of found this to be interesting and a good read, nevertheless let me know what you think, thanks.
     
         

  2. #2
    Vigilante Missing-Nin Uchiha Josephus's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Yes, I believe in the concept of wrong and right.

    On the most base level, the purpose of such a "system" is to punish those who harm the populous and award those who help. It's a community survival thing.
     
         
    Last edited by Uchiha Josephus; 01-25-2013 at 01:11 PM.

  3. #3
    Senior Member gameove's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    If there is no morals then there is no future
     
         

  4. #4
    Vigilante Missing-Nin Uchiha Josephus's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Quote Originally Posted by gameove View Post
    If there is no morals then there is no future
    Nah, there's a future. It's just every man for himself

    Hence why people work together to form a society that protects citizens and provides a better quality of life.
     
         

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    Senior Member gameove's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Quote Originally Posted by uchiha josephus View Post
    nah, there's a future. It's just every man for himself

    hence why people work together to form a society that protects citizens and provides a better quality of life.
    u right is everyman for him self , but wtch the population go down and down and u know what im getting at
     
         

  6. #6
    Christian Jobrjo's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    I could right a whole page, but instead, I'll just write the summary instead of explaining it all the way though, unless I have to. Long story short: If there is no God, then there is no right or wrong. Otherwise, there is.
     
         

  7. #7
    Senior Member gameove's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Quote Originally Posted by jobrjo View Post
    i could right a whole page, but instead, i'll just write the summary instead of explaining it all the way though, unless i have to. Long story short: if there is no god, then there is no right or wrong. Otherwise, there is.
    god is an illusion to put fear in man so they can stay on the strait path .
     
         

  8. #8
    Vigilante Missing-Nin Uchiha Josephus's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Quote Originally Posted by gameove View Post
    god is an illusion to put fear in man so they can stay on the strait path .
    And who made that straight path?
     
         

  9. #9
    Christian Jobrjo's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Quote Originally Posted by gameove View Post
    god is an illusion to put fear in man so they can stay on the strait path.
    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha Josephus View Post
    And who made that straight path?
    Thank you, Uchiha Josephus. Responding before I could xD
    Anyhow, there is no straight path, or rule book, without a rule giver. And seeing how all people are equal, none of us has the right to tell another how he should live his life. Therefore, if we're the top, then guess what? Each man is basically his own god, and nothing can be done about that. Someone has the right to go into a school and shoot up people, and someone has the right to sacrifice his life to help others. It's survival of the fittest, if there is no God. For if there is no God, then we make the rules (and for that matter, we can break them if we want).

    ^One of the several arguments. In support of my claim, if there is no God, there is no right/wrong, no moral standard. However, if there is a God, then things are different. So that is truly the question.
     
         

  10. #10
    Senior Member Yusuke Urameshi's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Quote Originally Posted by gameove View Post
    god is an illusion to put fear in man so they can stay on the strait path .
    Is this fact or your own foolish thinking? I'm thinking the latter.

    OT: Yes, the basis of right and wrong definitely exist. You know not to steal because it's wrong. You know not to kill because it's wrong. You know that helping others is a kind and right thing to do. Simple enough.
     
         

  11. #11
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yusuke Urameshi View Post
    Is this fact or your own foolish thinking? I'm thinking the latter.

    OT: Yes, the basis of right and wrong definitely exist. You know not to steal because it's wrong. You know not to kill because it's wrong. You know that helping others is a kind and right thing to do. Simple enough.
    You know not to steal because there is a law, and you will be punished accordingly. Right and wrong are vague concepts. When you encounter a situation that society (i.e. social media) has not told you how to handle, you somehow are uncertain of which choice is "right" or "wrong."
     
         

  12. #12
    Spreading Love, Don't Hate Alpha M's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Everyone has right to be free, have their freedom! Your freedom ends where another person freedom starts. Long but worth reading, if you want ofc:

    Right and wrong, good and evil, depends on one's perspective. Look at this example: A person that kills 100 people, would be seen as evil. But what if it's a warrior, soldier or "hero" and had to kill those 100 people in order to save many more or stop something "bad" happening? In this case people opinion would change and he would considered good or/and hero. What if he killed it for it's own sake? Experiments, revenge, etc? Would be seen as really evil. So my conclusion here, is your actions to be considered "right" has to be good for everyone. If it's only for your sake but doesn't interfere with one's freedom is okay, but if it does you're doing it wrong.


    What if I said that person lived in a community, where there were slaves, that were maltreated, punished with cutting out the tongue, putting out the eye, castration, scalding, burning, and cutting off limbs; but permitted whipping, beating, putting in irons, and imprisonment (as it happened in black people slavery). 100 of these saves tried to be free or just return from where they were forcibly taken, and they were rebelling and fighting those people. So the only way to bring stability, to the community, let's say 5000 people, was to kill those 100 slaves, which they didn't want to free or send them back. These would bring stability to most of the people, but then would it be right to take 100 lives for the sake of 5000? That mistreated them?


    We are well evolved creatures, but our history shows that it has its advantages, like medicine, and disadvantages, like wars, genocides etc... Anyway, has a "good" man right to take an "evil" man's life? The best option is always to try and change the person, but it rarely happens. But still I believe in right and wrong, and there's still neutral.
     
         

  13. #13
    Vigilante Missing-Nin Uchiha Josephus's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Quote Originally Posted by RockPain View Post
    Everyone has right to be free, have their freedom! Your freedom ends where another person freedom starts. Long but worth reading, if you want ofc:

    Right and wrong, good and evil, depends on one's perspective. Look at this example: A person that kills 100 people, would be seen as evil. But what if it's a warrior, soldier or "hero" and had to kill those 100 people in order to save many more or stop something "bad" happening? In this case people opinion would change and he would considered good or/and hero. What if he killed it for it's own sake? Experiments, revenge, etc? Would be seen as really evil. So my conclusion here, is your actions to be considered "right" has to be good for everyone. If it's only for your sake but doesn't interfere with one's freedom is okay, but if it does you're doing it wrong.


    What if I said that person lived in a community, where there were slaves, that were maltreated, punished with cutting out the tongue, putting out the eye, castration, scalding, burning, and cutting off limbs; but permitted whipping, beating, putting in irons, and imprisonment (as it happened in black people slavery). 100 of these saves tried to be free or just return from where they were forcibly taken, and they were rebelling and fighting those people. So the only way to bring stability, to the community, let's say 5000 people, was to kill those 100 slaves, which they didn't want to free or send them back. These would bring stability to most of the people, but then would it be right to take 100 lives for the sake of 5000? That mistreated them?


    We are well evolved creatures, but our history shows that it has its advantages, like medicine, and disadvantages, like wars, genocides etc... Anyway, has a "good" man right to take an "evil" man's life? The best option is always to try and change the person, but it rarely happens. But still I believe in right and wrong, and there's still neutral.
    In other words:

    One who believes in God -> Good/Right is following God's commandments/statues. Evil/Wrong is disobeying said commandments/statues.

    One who does not believe in God -> Good/Right is anything that helps me. Evil/Wrong is anything that hurts me.
     
         

  14. #14
    Spreading Love, Don't Hate Alpha M's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha Josephus View Post
    In other words:

    One who believes in God -> Good/Right is following God's commandments/statues. Evil/Wrong is disobeying said commandments/statues.

    One who does not believe in God -> Good/Right is anything that helps me. Evil/Wrong is anything that hurts me.
    I'm a believer, religious... But I can recognise that many of the things written in the bible is to prevent suffering, injustice, etc. Like sex after marriage... I'm not going to wait for that... But the meaning of it, in my opinion, is that if you have a partner, and have sex (there wasn't condoms and stuff at that time) you'll have children, but eventually your partner may leave you, therefore the marriage would make sure the partner would stay with you (most probable)... And for the atheist, I respect the fact that they don't believe, but think it's hypocrite celebrating christmas, easter, using expressions such as "Oh my God", ask them for help when they need, etc... I have more than enough evidence, personal experience that there is something else, not sure what it is, but I say Jesus and God.

    A person that believes, lives more happily I think, but that would be philosofical. People need to use their brain instead of following things straight up. And one shall not be selfish and disrespect another person freedom.
     
         

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    上昇 Ninpou's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Lets abolish all the laws and legal systems then see who survives, I see where your comming from but boundaries have to be put in place.
     
         

  16. #16
    Sage of Six Paths Trippy Sage of all Dank's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Yes I do. This thread is bound to start unnecessary arguments doe imo
     
         

  17. #17
    Christian Jobrjo's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    ^^There you go again Uchiha Josephus, nice comment, *****. Well said, and concise.
    -
    One more point to my posts, however. I dare say that the fact that we have morals, the fact that child abuse wrings our hearts, the fact that we have a jail, the fact that we look down on dishonesty, and so many other things that 99+% of people unanimously say are wrong, is part of the many evidences for God's existence, the rule-giver.
    BUT, this thread isn't for that, so I'll stay on topic. Just one more little tidbit
     
         

  18. #18
    上昇 Ninpou's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jobrjo View Post
    ^^There you go again Uchiha Josephus, nice comment, *****. Well said, and concise.
    -
    One more point to my posts, however. I dare say that the fact that we have morals, the fact that child abuse wrings our hearts, the fact that we have a jail, the fact that we look down on dishonesty, and so many other things that 99+% of people unanimously say are wrong, is part of the many evidences for God's existence, the rule-giver.
    BUT, this thread isn't for that, so I'll stay on topic. Just one more little tidbit
    That is what you are taught from birth, what you were raised to believe could be completely different if you had a different upbringing.
     
         

  19. #19
    Christian Jobrjo's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninpou View Post
    That is what you are taught from birth, what you were raised to believe could be completely different if you had a different upbringing.
    Haha, no sir. True, I was taught this. But, I'm not a person to accept what anyone says. Believe it or not, I questioned everything, unbeknownst to them even this day. And I resonated myself and arrived at that conclusion before it was introduced to me by others.

    Now what I can tell you is this, I'm luckily to be born in the household I am, I undoublty would be different otherwise. However, while I may not be a Christian now (another thing that I have decided to do of my own will, because I saw it as a nessecity), my view on this wouldn't change, because it makes sound sense. Therefore, I'd probably live life with vain joy, and not care much about much anything else. Anyway, we're all gonna die, right? Might as well enjoy the ride before it's all done. Osama Bin Laden and Martin Luther King Jr. died the same. And if this is it, SO WHAT! They both get the same end result. So, IF this is it, then good sir, life is nothing but vanity.

    I type/talk too much, I really do >.>
     
         

  20. #20
    Kaika Saisei 開花再生 Chatte's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    I'll only quote the great Uchiha Itachi (this is why he is one of my favorite characters, not because silly things as power-ups or clan or stuff like that):

    "People live their lives bound by what they accept as correct and true. That's how they define "reality". But what does it mean to be "correct" or "true"? Merely vague concepts… their "reality" may all be a mirage. Can we consider them to simply be living in their own world, shaped by their beliefs?"
     
         

  21. #21
    Legend ~Yubel~'s Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    If we are to get rid of the concept of right and wrong then we might aswell destroy society and live as animals in the wild.
    Actually, the law and society is what keeps us in check, we're worse then animals and to me the most dangerous species alive.
     
         

  22. #22
    Vigilante Missing-Nin Uchiha Josephus's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Quote Originally Posted by ~Yubel~ View Post
    If we are to get rid of the concept of right and wrong then we might aswell destroy society and live as animals in the wild.
    Actually, the law and society is what keeps us in check, we're worse then animals and to me the most dangerous species alive.
    That's the truth.
     
         

  23. #23
    Christian Jobrjo's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninpou View Post
    Lets abolish all the laws and legal systems then see who survives, I see where your comming from but boundaries have to be put in place.
    Quote Originally Posted by ~Yubel~ View Post
    If we are to get rid of the concept of right and wrong then we might aswell destroy society and live as animals in the wild.
    Actually, the law and society is what keeps us in check, we're worse then animals and to me the most dangerous species alive.
    That's the funny thing, you see.

    Look at my and Uchiha Josephus arguments, they are sound. But, yet, despite the fact that morals have no reason and right to exist among us, like they don't with animals, they DO with us. None of us, at least the civil, would get together, kill everyone in a mall, take their money, and use it for our own good,. Heck, forget that. Why don't we just gather together and rob everything I want, kill witnesses. You know, as do I, that is wrong. But WHY is it? Read our previous arguments, it shouldn't be (if there is no God)? What does this mean? (I won't elaborate, because this thread isn't about the existence of God. But I can have a discussion with someone if they wish, privately.)
     
         

  24. #24
    上昇 Ninpou's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jobrjo View Post
    That's the funny thing, you see.

    Look at my and Uchiha Josephus arguments, they are sound. But, yet, despite the fact that morals have no reason and right to exist among us, like they don't with animals, they DO with us. None of us, at least the civil, would get together, kill everyone in a mall, take their money, and use it for our own good,. Heck, forget that. Why don't we just gather together and rob everything I want, kill witnesses. You know, as do I, that is wrong. But WHY is it? Read our previous arguments, it shouldn't be (if there is no God)? What does this mean? (I won't elaborate, because this thread isn't about the existence of God. But I can have a discussion with someone if they wish, privately.)
    You see, not everybody thinks like that. Not everybody has your upbringing or is taught right and wrong. The definition of civil is based around the morals your agrueing. Your asuming there is a universal sense of right and wrong amoung humans but there isnt.
     
         

  25. #25
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jobrjo View Post
    That's the funny thing, you see.

    Look at my and Uchiha Josephus arguments, they are sound. But, yet, despite the fact that morals have no reason and right to exist among us, like they don't with animals, they DO with us. None of us, at least the civil, would get together, kill everyone in a mall, take their money, and use it for our own good,. Heck, forget that. Why don't we just gather together and rob everything I want, kill witnesses. You know, as do I, that is wrong. But WHY is it? Read our previous arguments, it shouldn't be (if there is no God)? What does this mean? (I won't elaborate, because this thread isn't about the existence of God. But I can have a discussion with someone if they wish, privately.)
    I really don't like the argument that you are making. We are different than animals we can see that stealing from someone is a bad thing. I don't need anyone to tell me that killing people is bad. What stops me from doing bad things isn't fear of punishment.
     
         

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