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  1. #26
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninpou View Post
    That is what you are taught from birth, what you were raised to believe could be completely different if you had a different upbringing.
    Haha, no sir. True, I was taught this. But, I'm not a person to accept what anyone says. Believe it or not, I questioned everything, unbeknownst to them even this day. And I resonated myself and arrived at that conclusion before it was introduced to me by others.

    Now what I can tell you is this, I'm luckily to be born in the household I am, I undoublty would be different otherwise. However, while I may not be a Christian now (another thing that I have decided to do of my own will, because I saw it as a nessecity), my view on this wouldn't change, because it makes sound sense. Therefore, I'd probably live life with vain joy, and not care much about much anything else. Anyway, we're all gonna die, right? Might as well enjoy the ride before it's all done. Osama Bin Laden and Martin Luther King Jr. died the same. And if this is it, SO WHAT! They both get the same end result. So, IF this is it, then good sir, life is nothing but vanity.

    I type/talk too much, I really do >.>
     
         

  2. #27
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jobrjo View Post
    That's the funny thing, you see.

    Look at my and Uchiha Josephus arguments, they are sound. But, yet, despite the fact that morals have no reason and right to exist among us, like they don't with animals, they DO with us. None of us, at least the civil, would get together, kill everyone in a mall, take their money, and use it for our own good,. Heck, forget that. Why don't we just gather together and rob everything I want, kill witnesses. You know, as do I, that is wrong. But WHY is it? Read our previous arguments, it shouldn't be (if there is no God)? What does this mean? (I won't elaborate, because this thread isn't about the existence of God. But I can have a discussion with someone if they wish, privately.)
    You see, not everybody thinks like that. Not everybody has your upbringing or is taught right and wrong. The definition of civil is based around the morals your agrueing. Your asuming there is a universal sense of right and wrong amoung humans but there isnt.
     
         

  3. #28
    Nerd November's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha Josephus View Post
    What if you're weak but smart?
    Did You Think The Word "Weak" I Wrote Refer Only To Strength ?
     
         
    Last edited by November; 01-25-2013 at 02:56 PM.

  4. #29
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz View Post
    We dont have to believe. either way it will still dictate our lives even if we didnt.
    Well, then the thing is this. If God exists, then there is a Heaven to seek and a Hell to shun. Buuuuuut, this thread =/= that, so, another discussion is for that. But tbh, everything really hinges on one ?: "Does God exist?"
    ...except your car color. I believe it could be red or blue, whichever you wish
     
         

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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jobrjo View Post
    That's the funny thing, you see.

    Look at my and Uchiha Josephus arguments, they are sound. But, yet, despite the fact that morals have no reason and right to exist among us, like they don't with animals, they DO with us. None of us, at least the civil, would get together, kill everyone in a mall, take their money, and use it for our own good,. Heck, forget that. Why don't we just gather together and rob everything I want, kill witnesses. You know, as do I, that is wrong. But WHY is it? Read our previous arguments, it shouldn't be (if there is no God)? What does this mean? (I won't elaborate, because this thread isn't about the existence of God. But I can have a discussion with someone if they wish, privately.)
    I really don't like the argument that you are making. We are different than animals we can see that stealing from someone is a bad thing. I don't need anyone to tell me that killing people is bad. What stops me from doing bad things isn't fear of punishment.
     
         

  6. #31
    Vigilante Missing-Nin Uchiha Josephus's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Quote Originally Posted by November Nolove View Post
    Did You Think The Word "Weak" I Wrote Refer Only To Strength ?
    Wasn't trying to start an argument, just being sly
     
         

  7. #32
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Right or Wrong eh? There are levels for Very Right or Kinda Wrong! Then there are situations where you should give considerations of right or wrong irrespective of what it appears at first instance...Also different people presume different situations as Right or Wrong..1 considers it right and the other considers it wrong! So its not as simple as it seems!!
     
         

  8. #33
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Trickster View Post
    A universal concept of "wrong" and "right" needs to be established to benefit society as a whole. This is how we survive as a species.

    The majority recognizes things such as murder, rape, causing harm to others physically/emotionally and greed are detrimental towards others. The majority recognizes that aforementioned actions fall under the category of "wrong". The majority agrees that such things should be outlawed.

    What the majority demands, goes.

    Of course there are certain things people disagree on such as homosexuality, the death penalty and abortion -- but these are things which are to blame on the desperate clinging to archaic beliefs and traditions. The concept of "wrong" and "right" itself has nothing to do with this; you cannot blame an idea based on what different individuals do with it, and then try to destroy it. Ideas will never be destroyed as long as there are people who hold onto them, and there will be. It is an essential factor in civilization, otherwise we would all regress to wild savages.

    Trying to discard this concept is akin to destroying civilization itself.
    Crimso Trickster, tell me, isn't it true that the majority has been wrong various times in history? No to mention, majority is relative. Family, City, Country, World? We all affect each other, but what one majority says is right is different from another. And what gives any man the right to say his is better. We're all men, none is greater than another.

    And as for we having to be civil for our sustination, of course. But there is one problem, you see. Death. It happens. It is the unavoidable appointment we must all make. Yestderday, I went to the funeral of oen of my friends moms. He's in high-school, and had a wonderful mom, one who was very dear and kind to me as well. She was loved by so many, including myself. But guess what? NO matter what good she did, she's dead. It matters not. She is gone. ANythign she did here on earth matters not, if there is no eternity, for now she no longer exists. She is gone. And eventually, so will be everyone she helped. Rich, poor, weak, strong, smart, dumb, successful, wasteful, we all die. And when that happens, everything before does not matter, because, if there is no eternity, we are gone. All is vanity.

    Seeing how we have so little time, and once we're dead, it supposedly matters not, then tell me why I should use that to help others, and not me. Moral obligation, I suppose? Now, why do we have moral obligation? What purpose is it? Tell me, please, who is that lawgiver? Why does the majority, whatever it is, matter? The majority's mind changes, and is subjective to what we reference. Even so the majority will die to. Why should we help one another, and not ourselves. SO what about ruin? Why do we even care about what happens, as long as we stay on top? If it's just us, then there is only one's opinion and wants vs anothers', survival of the fittest.

    The fact is this. None of us would go through with that. Now why? Why is it? Because we have a heart. No man would say it's okay to kidnap a helpless child, because he wants a slave. But this life is temporal, we will all die. If so is the case, then why not attempt to enjoy it? Why live under the submition of those who are equal to myself? For their benefit?

    But, if there is a God, then we have reason, cause, hope, fear, purpose, accountability, an eternity, and much more. It's because of this that Doreen's life mattered. It's because I know now she is in heaven, as are all those who are Christians unto deathhhhhh...... okay I'm gong off topic, sorry. I'm not saying I believe in the things previously said, I'm saying however that they make sense if there is no God.
     
         
    Last edited by Jobrjo; 01-25-2013 at 03:25 PM.

  9. #34
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talal View Post
    I really don't like the argument that you are making. We are different than animals we can see that stealing from someone is a bad thing. I don't need anyone to tell me that killing people is bad. What stops me from doing bad things isn't fear of punishment.
    Can you show how we are if there is no God, ane if evolution is true? All we would be, is smarter animals. Why do we see it is wrong? What makes us different.

    If there is a God, people = people.
    If there is no God, people = smarter animals.

    I do know there is a God, so it's not like I worry about doing those things, seeing what Eccl. 13:14 says. All I'm doing is laying out the facts, and questioning why they are the case, and then leaving people to make their own choice from there.
     
         

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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Life Sucks, Deal With It
    We Get True Peace Only When We Die
     
         

  11. #36
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Well I do believe in the concepts of right and wrong, but again, these are just concepts, different societies in diferent times, and different individuals have different concepts, so IMO there is no ultimate wrong or right...something is wrong for someone, and something (maybe that exact same thing) is right for another.
     
         

  12. #37
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jobrjo View Post
    Crimso Trickster, tell me, isn't it true that the majority has been wrong various times in history? No to mention, majority is relative. Family, City, Country, World? We all affect each other, but what one majority says is right is different from another. And what gives any man the right to say his is better. We're all men, none is greater than another.

    And as for we having to be civil for our sustination, of course. But there is one problem, you see. Death. It happens. It is the unavoidable appointment we must all make. Yestderday, I went to the funeral of oen of my friends moms. He's in high-school, and had a wonderful mom, one who was very dear and kind to me as well. She was loved by so many, including myself. But guess what? NO matter what good she did, she's dead. It matters not. She is gone. ANythign she did here on earth matters not, if there is no eternity, for now she no longer exists. She is gone. And eventually, so will be everyone she helped. Rich, poor, weak, strong, smart, dumb, successful, wasteful, we all die. And when that happens, everything before does not matter, because, if there is no eternity, we are gone. All is vanity.

    Seeing how we have so little time, and once we're dead, it supposedly matters not, then tell me why I should use that to help others, and not me. Moral obligation, I suppose? Now, why do we have moral obligation? What purpose is it? Tell me, please, who is that lawgiver? Why does the majority, whatever it is, matter? The majority's mind changes, and is subjective to what we reference. Even so the majority will die to. Why should we help one another, and not ourselves. SO what about ruin? Why do we even care about what happens, as long as we stay on top? If it's just us, then there is only one's opinion and wants vs anothers', survival of the fittest.

    The fact is this. None of us would go through with that. Now why? Why is it? Because we have a heart. No man would say it's okay to kidnap a helpless child, because he wants a slave. But this life is temporal, we will all die. If so is the case, then why not attempt to enjoy it? Why live under the submition of those who are equal to myself? For their benefit? I've rambeled on too long, and possibly confused people. I'm sorry. However, at this point, I have to go, so have fun guys! ^_^ Sorry for any confusion caused.
    I enjoyed reading this.
     
         

  13. #38
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanguis View Post
    I enjoyed reading this.
    ...what is that supposed to mean :0 Good thing I guess? lol

    Anyway, I'm going to make a quick edit to that post.
     
         
    Last edited by Jobrjo; 01-25-2013 at 03:28 PM.

  14. #39
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Before I say anything, I just want to say that I only read the first post.

    Right and wrong is all about perception and what you believe. We as people are programmed with ideas of what is right and wrong. We are programmed with the idea of humanity and morality. If you are an individual who thinks for yourself then you probably understand this. We are told, this is right, this is wrong, this is that, that is this. Think about it... The sky is blue, right? Why is it not red? The color blue is a MAN-MADE word to distinguish and associate objects. We as people have more programmed thoughts and ideas than we realize which includes the idea of what is right and wrong.
     
         

  15. #40
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Continuing my convo with Crimson Trickster,
    Okay, I'm not going to respond point by point, I get what you're saying.
    Basically you're saying (and please tell me if I misunderstood): That the "majority" has views on things. We have the right to do what we want, but if we go against the majority, then we reap the consequences.

    That is my point.

    Why does the majority have good views and bad. Why is it that is is a bad thing to kill. Why is it a good thing ti serve. Because of the majority's opinion, right. Why do we have this opinion. Throughout time, while the specifics have certainly changed, there's always been a particular good side and bad side. Why is it? From whence does morality come? Opinions have sources. I like KK donuts because they taste good. It wouldn't make sense to say I like KK donuts because I do. Same thing with There being a good side. It doesn't make sense to say there is a good side because the majority believes those actions to be so. Why does the majority believe those actions to be good or bad? What is the source of their opinion?
     
         

  16. #41
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    First of all, I'd just like to say it's nice we can discuss this like civil people, many descend into hate comments. Kudos to you for that

    Moving on...

    "Largely genetic preferences, I'd think. We base our morality on what we like and don't like, to put it in simple terms. Most people do not enjoy seeing harm inflicted upon others when there is no reason to, because of empathy. This empathy is present in some animals as well. Why this is so, is because humans are social creatures. Even if we have evolved far beyond any other animals, there are still old instincts left to protect our "pack" so to speak."

    Well, that's the thing. People don't like seeing harm, that is known as morality. It is why jail exists for those who do horrid things. But animals actually don't! And the very rare times it does occur, it's with the smarter creatures defending their own pack/family/such, and the reason is for their own welfare. The moment the fellow animal no longer benefits them, their mutualism stops. All that is is a symbiotic-relationship within animal families. They act from instinct, not emotion or love. It is different for humans. The gap between an animals thinking ability versus ours is beyond comparison. We are on a totally different plain mentally. But that's another discussion for another time.
    What I'm saying is that animals do it because of instinct and their own benefits. And even then, hen one looks at the animal kingdom, it's extraordinarily rare. In general, in the wild it is survival of the fittest. Some animals even eat their own kind for survival. But they don't think about it, it's an instinct to survive.

    "It used to be nature's way of making sure we survived as a species by taking care of the others around us. Now we have gained a higher level of intelligence, this instinct as well has involved into something far more complex, and now translates into terms of morality, what is "right" and what is "wrong"."

    Several things here. I for one know evolution is wrong on several, no, countless levels. But assuming it was the case, why didn't we greater intelligence =/= morals. Think about it, if a lion became smarter, it would develop better technology, strategy, and learn more ways to better itself. A 10-year-old who has never been to school can understand morals, even if not multiplication. One is born with a conscience, not made with intelligence. Comparing intelligence to morals is apples to oranges.

    "Of course this is all just my opinion based on what I've read in scientific articles. But that's what I believe it to be."

    Personally, I don't believe anything unless it makes sense. No matter who publishes it, common sense in universal, and any argument that oversteps the boundaries should be discarded.
    There's a funny thing about truth. You see, truth doesn't change on what we want it to be. Truth exists, and we just have to find it. Truth is steadfast, and unchanging. The question is, can we find it, and once so, accept it. But, nowadays people are even starting to doubt the existence of truth.., another discussion for another time.



    I'm just saying that people have morals. That is why I cannot kill you're closest friend and the media not turn against me. The fact morals exist isn't explained by an evolutionary standpoint. In fact, despite the fact it can't be done anyway, even if it could, a desire to better ourselves would evolve; that is what evolution is anyway, isn't it?
    So one has to ask, where does morality come from? I argue it to be God.

    Anyway, I'm out. Have some work to do .-. cya guys
     
         

  17. #42
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    ^ Pointless back and forth. Just sayin'
     
         

  18. #43
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Trickster View Post
    Already acknowledged.



    Read before you post.

    Okay, I'm back now, haha. But I'll be bouncing in and out, so forgive the not-so-prompt responses. ^_^
    But, did you read what I said earlier? About Truth?
    Truth is there, no matter what I, you, or any other believes. I can readily, easily, and constantly show how evolution is wrong, as can any provided with the full picture. It can be done countless ways. But this is not that thread, therefore I will not get into this. This thread is also not about God, so I'll try to refrain from specifically mentioning that.
    Anyway, because there is a truth, we should be able to arrive at it. Someone is right, no matter what we believe, and I'd like to discuss it. If you are willing, we can continue.. Otherwise, if you'd like to stop, I will. But I am far from finished, no t until a conclusion that we cna both agree to is reached
     
         

  19. #44
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jobrjo View Post
    Okay, I'm back now, haha. But I'll be bouncing in and out, so forgive the not-so-prompt responses. ^_^
    But, did you read what I said earlier? About Truth?
    Truth is there, no matter what I, you, or any other believes. I can readily, easily, and constantly show how evolution is wrong, as can any provided with the full picture. It can be done countless ways. But this is not that thread, therefore I will not get into this. This thread is also not about God, so I'll try to refrain from specifically mentioning that.
    Anyway, because there is a truth, we should be able to arrive at it. Someone is right, no matter what we believe, and I'd like to discuss it. If you are willing, we can continue.. Otherwise, if you'd like to stop, I will. But I am far from finished, no t until a conclusion that we cna both agree to is reached
    Meh... Truth! What is truth? There is only one truth and that is absolute truth. The truth is what a person BELIEVES. Absolute Truth is something that is true to every person undeniably. Example? Um, this text in this post I am writing is black or a very dark gray. That is undeniable. There are somethings that just do not have answers. So even your post, Jobrjo, is just your belief. What you hold to be truth... but somebody else could disagree and have a different truth. All you really did here is post a belief about truth. Then again, maybe that's just my belief. A Paradox... So then what's the truth. :P
     
         
    Last edited by chancek7; 01-25-2013 at 06:33 PM.

  20. #45
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Quote Originally Posted by chancek7 View Post
    Meh... Truth! What is truth? There is only one truth and that is absolute truth. The truth is what a person BELIEVES. Absolute Truth is something that is true to every person undeniably. Example? Um, this text in this post I am writing is black or a very dark gray. That is undeniable. There are somethings that just do not have answers. So even your post, Jobrjo, is just your belief. What you hold to be truth... but somebody else could disagree and have a different truth. All you really did here is post a belief about truth. Then again, maybe that's just my belief. A Paradox... So then what's the truth. :P
    3 people are looking at an elephant. From their various view points, they think it's a rhino, hippo, and whale. But, it is still an elephant.
    No matter what our belief there is a truth. That's common sense. Either there is or isn't a God. He doesn't exist for some and not for others. Same for the universe, me, you, colors, or anything. Whether or not we agree to something doesn't affect it's existence or lack thereof. Truth is only for us to discover, accept, and act upon. Luckily it's available to all who will search.

    Just curios, how old are you guys? I'm pretty sure I'm much younger, haha.
     
         

  21. #46
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jobrjo View Post
    3 people are looking at an elephant. From their various view points, they think it's a rhino, hippo, and whale. But, it is still an elephant.
    No matter what our belief there is a truth. That's common sense. Either there is or isn't a God. He doesn't exist for some and not for others. Same for the universe, me, you, colors, or anything. Whether or not we agree to something doesn't affect it's existence or lack thereof. Truth is only for us to discover, accept, and act upon. Luckily it's available to all who will search.

    Just curios, how old are you guys? I'm pretty sure I'm much younger, haha.
    Good example... Kind of. The only problem is that it is made up to fit your statement. Anybody can do that and it makes nothing true. That entire statement was a made-up scenario.

    "No matter what our belief there is a truth"
    ^ This is a belief. You can belief that all day long, that's fine. The rest of the world may not agree. Say 75% do, does that make the other 25% wrong? Nope... Because it's a belief. There is nothing that exist that says that is the ultimate truth.

    "Either there is or isn't a God"
    ^ This is an absolute truth. It's like yes or no. Right or Wrong. Do or don't. There is no denying that. What else is there? The absolute truth is that there is a God or there is not. That is not a belief.

    I am 22.
     
         

  22. #47
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    To response to the title of the thread, I believe that often wrong or right is subjective and there's a lot of gray area. There some things however (like genocide) that are rightly accepted as wrong and others (like curing cancer) that are rightly accepted as right.

    It's not a question of "do you BELIEVE in wrong and right", because morals are not a belief they're something inherent in us as humans. Now the causes and extent to which we apply these morals are up to us as individuals and varies a lot, hence the gray area.

    I think your question is; do you believe in things being absolutely right or wrong? As they say, only Siths speak in absolutes
     
         

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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Yes I believe in ethics.
     
         

  24. #49
    Christian Jobrjo's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Alright, back again!

    Good example... Kind of. The only problem is that it is made up to fit your statement. Anybody can do that and it makes nothing true. That entire statement was a made-up scenario.

    "No matter what our belief there is a truth"
    ^ This is a belief. You can belief that all day long, that's fine. The rest of the world may not agree. Say 75% do, does that make the other 25% wrong? Nope... Because it's a belief. There is nothing that exist that says that is the ultimate truth.
    Eh, I do like analogies
    This is the think. I right now am on the internet. That is a fact. And it can be proven. A truth can be proven, a belief cannot. When I say "God" I speak of the existence of our omnipotent Creator. Whether or not something/someone/etc. exists is something that can be proven, and therefore there is a truth about it. See the Law of the Excluded Middle.

    "Either there is or isn't a God"
    ^ This is an absolute truth. It's like yes or no. Right or Wrong. Do or don't. There is no denying that. What else is there? The absolute truth is that there is a God or there is not. That is not a belief.
    Well, looks like you agree with my previous paragraph, so you can ignore it, lol. But, let us both keep this on topic, as much as I'd like to discuss truth. In relation to this topic, there, by nessicity, are either no morals and "good" and "bad" are chosen by the whims of the fellow men that happen to live near us, or there is One above us who has a set of rules that we must follow.

    I am 22.
    Yeah... I'm defiantly younger... let's just say I'm a minor, haha ^_^
    But to be honest, I would say that mentally and physically I'm somewhat more mature than the average person my age. Good to know we can talk peacefully.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Just something i think is worth posting. A book I happen to be reading that had a chapter covering morality. Thought I'd speak from it:

    There are 4 questions regarding morality
    Whence the origin of morality?
    -If there is no God, it comes from man's opinion.
    What is the motivation for morality?
    -If there is no God, then I would do best to live for myself alone.
    How is morality to be defined?
    -If there is no God, there is no evil.
    Does immorality have an ultimate consequence?
    -If there is no God, it makes no difference how one lives their life.

    Atheism thus affirms:
    In the beginning, Nothing was. And Nothing caused man to evolve from nothingness. With the passage of time, from nothingness man developed morality, which suggests that we "ought" to do right, and not do evil. But the time is coming when again there will be nothing. Let us, therefore, fall down before the throne of Nothing, and be good.

    I summarized a section of the book in my own words, please understand that.
     
         

  25. #50
    Member chancek7's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jobrjo View Post
    Alright, back again!


    Eh, I do like analogies
    This is the think. I right now am on the internet. That is a fact. And it can be proven. A truth can be proven, a belief cannot. When I say "God" I speak of the existence of our omnipotent Creator. Whether or not something/someone/etc. exists is something that can be proven, and therefore there is a truth about it. See the Law of the Excluded Middle.


    Well, looks like you agree with my previous paragraph, so you can ignore it, lol. But, let us both keep this on topic, as much as I'd like to discuss truth. In relation to this topic, there, by nessicity, are either no morals and "good" and "bad" are chosen by the whims of the fellow men that happen to live near us, or there is One above us who has a set of rules that we must follow.


    Yeah... I'm defiantly younger... let's just say I'm a minor, haha ^_^
    But to be honest, I would say that mentally and physically I'm somewhat more mature than the average person my age. Good to know we can talk peacefully.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Just something i think is worth posting. A book I happen to be reading that had a chapter covering morality. Thought I'd speak from it:

    There are 4 questions regarding morality
    Whence the origin of morality?
    -If there is no God, it comes from man's opinion.
    What is the motivation for morality?
    -If there is no God, then I would do best to live for myself alone.
    How is morality to be defined?
    -If there is no God, there is no evil.
    Does immorality have an ultimate consequence?
    -If there is no God, it makes no difference how one lives their life.

    Atheism thus affirms:
    In the beginning, Nothing was. And Nothing caused man to evolve from nothingness. With the passage of time, from nothingness man developed morality, which suggests that we "ought" to do right, and not do evil. But the time is coming when again there will be nothing. Let us, therefore, fall down before the throne of Nothing, and be good.

    I summarized a section of the book in my own words, please understand that.
    It's very good that you have strong beliefs but my questions to you is this... Are they your own? or ideas from the books you read? Be honest
     
         
    Last edited by chancek7; 01-25-2013 at 09:46 PM.

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