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  1. #41
    Christian Jobrjo's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    First of all, I'd just like to say it's nice we can discuss this like civil people, many descend into hate comments. Kudos to you for that

    Moving on...

    "Largely genetic preferences, I'd think. We base our morality on what we like and don't like, to put it in simple terms. Most people do not enjoy seeing harm inflicted upon others when there is no reason to, because of empathy. This empathy is present in some animals as well. Why this is so, is because humans are social creatures. Even if we have evolved far beyond any other animals, there are still old instincts left to protect our "pack" so to speak."

    Well, that's the thing. People don't like seeing harm, that is known as morality. It is why jail exists for those who do horrid things. But animals actually don't! And the very rare times it does occur, it's with the smarter creatures defending their own pack/family/such, and the reason is for their own welfare. The moment the fellow animal no longer benefits them, their mutualism stops. All that is is a symbiotic-relationship within animal families. They act from instinct, not emotion or love. It is different for humans. The gap between an animals thinking ability versus ours is beyond comparison. We are on a totally different plain mentally. But that's another discussion for another time.
    What I'm saying is that animals do it because of instinct and their own benefits. And even then, hen one looks at the animal kingdom, it's extraordinarily rare. In general, in the wild it is survival of the fittest. Some animals even eat their own kind for survival. But they don't think about it, it's an instinct to survive.

    "It used to be nature's way of making sure we survived as a species by taking care of the others around us. Now we have gained a higher level of intelligence, this instinct as well has involved into something far more complex, and now translates into terms of morality, what is "right" and what is "wrong"."

    Several things here. I for one know evolution is wrong on several, no, countless levels. But assuming it was the case, why didn't we greater intelligence =/= morals. Think about it, if a lion became smarter, it would develop better technology, strategy, and learn more ways to better itself. A 10-year-old who has never been to school can understand morals, even if not multiplication. One is born with a conscience, not made with intelligence. Comparing intelligence to morals is apples to oranges.

    "Of course this is all just my opinion based on what I've read in scientific articles. But that's what I believe it to be."

    Personally, I don't believe anything unless it makes sense. No matter who publishes it, common sense in universal, and any argument that oversteps the boundaries should be discarded.
    There's a funny thing about truth. You see, truth doesn't change on what we want it to be. Truth exists, and we just have to find it. Truth is steadfast, and unchanging. The question is, can we find it, and once so, accept it. But, nowadays people are even starting to doubt the existence of truth.., another discussion for another time.



    I'm just saying that people have morals. That is why I cannot kill you're closest friend and the media not turn against me. The fact morals exist isn't explained by an evolutionary standpoint. In fact, despite the fact it can't be done anyway, even if it could, a desire to better ourselves would evolve; that is what evolution is anyway, isn't it?
    So one has to ask, where does morality come from? I argue it to be God.

    Anyway, I'm out. Have some work to do .-. cya guys
     
         

  2. #42
    Member chancek7's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    ^ Pointless back and forth. Just sayin'
     
         

  3. #43
    Christian Jobrjo's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Trickster View Post
    Already acknowledged.



    Read before you post.

    Okay, I'm back now, haha. But I'll be bouncing in and out, so forgive the not-so-prompt responses. ^_^
    But, did you read what I said earlier? About Truth?
    Truth is there, no matter what I, you, or any other believes. I can readily, easily, and constantly show how evolution is wrong, as can any provided with the full picture. It can be done countless ways. But this is not that thread, therefore I will not get into this. This thread is also not about God, so I'll try to refrain from specifically mentioning that.
    Anyway, because there is a truth, we should be able to arrive at it. Someone is right, no matter what we believe, and I'd like to discuss it. If you are willing, we can continue.. Otherwise, if you'd like to stop, I will. But I am far from finished, no t until a conclusion that we cna both agree to is reached
     
         

  4. #44
    Member chancek7's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jobrjo View Post
    Okay, I'm back now, haha. But I'll be bouncing in and out, so forgive the not-so-prompt responses. ^_^
    But, did you read what I said earlier? About Truth?
    Truth is there, no matter what I, you, or any other believes. I can readily, easily, and constantly show how evolution is wrong, as can any provided with the full picture. It can be done countless ways. But this is not that thread, therefore I will not get into this. This thread is also not about God, so I'll try to refrain from specifically mentioning that.
    Anyway, because there is a truth, we should be able to arrive at it. Someone is right, no matter what we believe, and I'd like to discuss it. If you are willing, we can continue.. Otherwise, if you'd like to stop, I will. But I am far from finished, no t until a conclusion that we cna both agree to is reached
    Meh... Truth! What is truth? There is only one truth and that is absolute truth. The truth is what a person BELIEVES. Absolute Truth is something that is true to every person undeniably. Example? Um, this text in this post I am writing is black or a very dark gray. That is undeniable. There are somethings that just do not have answers. So even your post, Jobrjo, is just your belief. What you hold to be truth... but somebody else could disagree and have a different truth. All you really did here is post a belief about truth. Then again, maybe that's just my belief. A Paradox... So then what's the truth. :P
     
         
    Last edited by chancek7; 01-25-2013 at 06:33 PM.

  5. #45
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Quote Originally Posted by chancek7 View Post
    Meh... Truth! What is truth? There is only one truth and that is absolute truth. The truth is what a person BELIEVES. Absolute Truth is something that is true to every person undeniably. Example? Um, this text in this post I am writing is black or a very dark gray. That is undeniable. There are somethings that just do not have answers. So even your post, Jobrjo, is just your belief. What you hold to be truth... but somebody else could disagree and have a different truth. All you really did here is post a belief about truth. Then again, maybe that's just my belief. A Paradox... So then what's the truth. :P
    3 people are looking at an elephant. From their various view points, they think it's a rhino, hippo, and whale. But, it is still an elephant.
    No matter what our belief there is a truth. That's common sense. Either there is or isn't a God. He doesn't exist for some and not for others. Same for the universe, me, you, colors, or anything. Whether or not we agree to something doesn't affect it's existence or lack thereof. Truth is only for us to discover, accept, and act upon. Luckily it's available to all who will search.

    Just curios, how old are you guys? I'm pretty sure I'm much younger, haha.
     
         

  6. #46
    Member chancek7's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jobrjo View Post
    3 people are looking at an elephant. From their various view points, they think it's a rhino, hippo, and whale. But, it is still an elephant.
    No matter what our belief there is a truth. That's common sense. Either there is or isn't a God. He doesn't exist for some and not for others. Same for the universe, me, you, colors, or anything. Whether or not we agree to something doesn't affect it's existence or lack thereof. Truth is only for us to discover, accept, and act upon. Luckily it's available to all who will search.

    Just curios, how old are you guys? I'm pretty sure I'm much younger, haha.
    Good example... Kind of. The only problem is that it is made up to fit your statement. Anybody can do that and it makes nothing true. That entire statement was a made-up scenario.

    "No matter what our belief there is a truth"
    ^ This is a belief. You can belief that all day long, that's fine. The rest of the world may not agree. Say 75% do, does that make the other 25% wrong? Nope... Because it's a belief. There is nothing that exist that says that is the ultimate truth.

    "Either there is or isn't a God"
    ^ This is an absolute truth. It's like yes or no. Right or Wrong. Do or don't. There is no denying that. What else is there? The absolute truth is that there is a God or there is not. That is not a belief.

    I am 22.
     
         

  7. #47
    Heart of a Lion. HiraishinFTG's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    To response to the title of the thread, I believe that often wrong or right is subjective and there's a lot of gray area. There some things however (like genocide) that are rightly accepted as wrong and others (like curing cancer) that are rightly accepted as right.

    It's not a question of "do you BELIEVE in wrong and right", because morals are not a belief they're something inherent in us as humans. Now the causes and extent to which we apply these morals are up to us as individuals and varies a lot, hence the gray area.

    I think your question is; do you believe in things being absolutely right or wrong? As they say, only Siths speak in absolutes
     
         

  8. #48
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Yes I believe in ethics.
     
         

  9. #49
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Alright, back again!

    Good example... Kind of. The only problem is that it is made up to fit your statement. Anybody can do that and it makes nothing true. That entire statement was a made-up scenario.

    "No matter what our belief there is a truth"
    ^ This is a belief. You can belief that all day long, that's fine. The rest of the world may not agree. Say 75% do, does that make the other 25% wrong? Nope... Because it's a belief. There is nothing that exist that says that is the ultimate truth.
    Eh, I do like analogies
    This is the think. I right now am on the internet. That is a fact. And it can be proven. A truth can be proven, a belief cannot. When I say "God" I speak of the existence of our omnipotent Creator. Whether or not something/someone/etc. exists is something that can be proven, and therefore there is a truth about it. See the Law of the Excluded Middle.

    "Either there is or isn't a God"
    ^ This is an absolute truth. It's like yes or no. Right or Wrong. Do or don't. There is no denying that. What else is there? The absolute truth is that there is a God or there is not. That is not a belief.
    Well, looks like you agree with my previous paragraph, so you can ignore it, lol. But, let us both keep this on topic, as much as I'd like to discuss truth. In relation to this topic, there, by nessicity, are either no morals and "good" and "bad" are chosen by the whims of the fellow men that happen to live near us, or there is One above us who has a set of rules that we must follow.

    I am 22.
    Yeah... I'm defiantly younger... let's just say I'm a minor, haha ^_^
    But to be honest, I would say that mentally and physically I'm somewhat more mature than the average person my age. Good to know we can talk peacefully.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Just something i think is worth posting. A book I happen to be reading that had a chapter covering morality. Thought I'd speak from it:

    There are 4 questions regarding morality
    Whence the origin of morality?
    -If there is no God, it comes from man's opinion.
    What is the motivation for morality?
    -If there is no God, then I would do best to live for myself alone.
    How is morality to be defined?
    -If there is no God, there is no evil.
    Does immorality have an ultimate consequence?
    -If there is no God, it makes no difference how one lives their life.

    Atheism thus affirms:
    In the beginning, Nothing was. And Nothing caused man to evolve from nothingness. With the passage of time, from nothingness man developed morality, which suggests that we "ought" to do right, and not do evil. But the time is coming when again there will be nothing. Let us, therefore, fall down before the throne of Nothing, and be good.

    I summarized a section of the book in my own words, please understand that.
     
         

  10. #50
    Member chancek7's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jobrjo View Post
    Alright, back again!


    Eh, I do like analogies
    This is the think. I right now am on the internet. That is a fact. And it can be proven. A truth can be proven, a belief cannot. When I say "God" I speak of the existence of our omnipotent Creator. Whether or not something/someone/etc. exists is something that can be proven, and therefore there is a truth about it. See the Law of the Excluded Middle.


    Well, looks like you agree with my previous paragraph, so you can ignore it, lol. But, let us both keep this on topic, as much as I'd like to discuss truth. In relation to this topic, there, by nessicity, are either no morals and "good" and "bad" are chosen by the whims of the fellow men that happen to live near us, or there is One above us who has a set of rules that we must follow.


    Yeah... I'm defiantly younger... let's just say I'm a minor, haha ^_^
    But to be honest, I would say that mentally and physically I'm somewhat more mature than the average person my age. Good to know we can talk peacefully.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Just something i think is worth posting. A book I happen to be reading that had a chapter covering morality. Thought I'd speak from it:

    There are 4 questions regarding morality
    Whence the origin of morality?
    -If there is no God, it comes from man's opinion.
    What is the motivation for morality?
    -If there is no God, then I would do best to live for myself alone.
    How is morality to be defined?
    -If there is no God, there is no evil.
    Does immorality have an ultimate consequence?
    -If there is no God, it makes no difference how one lives their life.

    Atheism thus affirms:
    In the beginning, Nothing was. And Nothing caused man to evolve from nothingness. With the passage of time, from nothingness man developed morality, which suggests that we "ought" to do right, and not do evil. But the time is coming when again there will be nothing. Let us, therefore, fall down before the throne of Nothing, and be good.

    I summarized a section of the book in my own words, please understand that.
    It's very good that you have strong beliefs but my questions to you is this... Are they your own? or ideas from the books you read? Be honest
     
         
    Last edited by chancek7; 01-25-2013 at 09:46 PM.

  11. #51
    Christian Jobrjo's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Quote Originally Posted by chancek7 View Post
    It's very good that you have strong beliefs but my questions to you is this... Are they your own? or ideas from the books you read?
    It shouldn't matter. Sound proof is sound proof, no matter if it's from a homeless man or the President of the USA.
    But, to answer your question, I had these thoughts before reading the book, it's just confirming and building them up. It was suggested to me to read. Anyway, the only part that is taken from the book, filtered through me, and posted here is the 2nd 1/2 of that one post. Everything else isn't.

    But as I said, it truly shouldn't matter .-. But hey, curiosity is good!
     
         

  12. #52
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanguis View Post
    Through all the barriers we have overcome as a species this is one we still have a firm grip on, I don't see why we hold so dear to the concept of wrong and right. At the end of the day all it does to the species is bring:
    • separation of between humanity
    • righteous pride
    • unfairness


    The most important one; it is too based on ones selfish need and too little for the benefit of others. Maybe it all boils down to the selfishness of humanity, but if we keep this concept humanity is never going to come to terms with one another and I shudder to think what will happen when we get civilised in space.


    Now I know if we do get rid of this something else will have to take its place. I am just speaking my mind here but I thought of the concept of Progression of Humanity and the Delay of humanity and we should have a common goal (e.g. to learn everything, or explore everywhere) so this concept stands true. It would be based on what makes humanity go froward(progress) and what makes us go backwards(delay).

    Now I don't know anyway this can actually be countered but I may just blinded by my own thoughts. So if you see a counter to this then please do tell.

    I don't know what peoples reactions are going to be to this, maybe you think I am just an idiot who shouldn't make these types of threads again or you may of found this to be interesting and a good read, nevertheless let me know what you think, thanks.
    Yes, I believe in this concept, and yes there IS a general sense of what's right or wrong, unlike someone said it here. Killing is bad, helping is good. Don't overthink it.
     
         

  13. #53
    Senior Member Dreckerplayer's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    It'll take several continuous disasters for us to get along with one another...and it can happen.
     
         

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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    interesting...
     
         

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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Somewhat. ...

    It depends on the situation though. (IMO)
     
         

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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Good and Evil will always exist because the two can't exist without each other. Moreover, if it wasn't for this concept, humans would be nothing but savage animals who'd destroy everything for their own needs.
     
         

  17. #57
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    this is rather funny. i was meaning to look up the meaning of nihilism, as i had forgotten what it meant, and did this just a few moments ago, decided to open a tab to the base, and here it is. a question about nihilism.

    no, i dont believe in morality in general and hold that any moral is simply an abstract creation of society.

    EDIT: after rereading my post, i would like to clarify. i, like most, dont always practice what i preach. i still hold the morality that was taught to me, the "standard" set most people are raised to believe, and i agree with many on here that without any morality, society would not function, the only difference, i believe it wont function well, but it depends on many factors wether it will function at all (societal size, contents of people, the past presence of morality, etc.) i believe all morality is a creation, and there is no inherent right and wrong. that is all.
     
         
    Last edited by origin29; 01-26-2013 at 03:08 AM.

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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    There is no right or wrong, only the consequence of your action.
     
         

  19. #59
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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yusuke Urameshi View Post
    Is this fact or your own foolish thinking? I'm thinking the latter.

    OT: Yes, the basis of right and wrong definitely exist. You know not to steal because it's wrong. You know not to kill because it's wrong. You know that helping others is a kind and right thing to do. Simple enough.
    You know not to steal because there is a law, and you will be punished accordingly. Right and wrong are vague concepts. When you encounter a situation that society (i.e. social media) has not told you how to handle, you somehow are uncertain of which choice is "right" or "wrong."
     
         

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    Re: Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

    the concept of right and wrong exists, and is very neccesary. To progress humanity we need humble caring people. Simple as that. If there are no morals than anything goes, and we degrade as society. I may type better later, when i can use my other hand(as i have to hold something i am super glueing.
     
         

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