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    Re: (DrProof) Raikiri's Extirpating Aptitude

    Quote Originally Posted by Owarij View Post
    Kishi states in the Databook that the whole scenario of Kakashi cutting a lightning bolt with Chidori is a legend ... Is it true or not? we don't know.. Scientifically speaking, even with Sharingan it would be impossible for anyone to predict a strike and cut a lightning bolt before it touches the ground...Lightning may not move at the speed of light.. but it still moves at a speed much faster than what the average brain synapse works at.. However,these are ninjas of a manga, beings who easily exceed the normal capabilities of simple human beings.. Even with this in mind, it seems that even in this fictional manga, certain things remain impossible.. as Black Zetsu stated without doubt that even for a normal ninja, it would be impossible to dodge or react to

    Ps. It would be in your best interest to dumb down your next threads, as ampititude said, As nice as it may look, it gives of an ostentatious feeling
    Kishi does subconsciously admit it to being a legend, but it's obviously as the end result it results in being an allegory.. We cannot deduce rather our theories are correct 100%.. However, the manga has the most canonical reasons as to why the said statement can be true. Thus even if it defies human nature..


    Quote Originally Posted by SasoriOfTheRedSaand View Post
    Oh, and don't hold onto the databook. "Amaterasu as hot as the sun?" Nah, not really.


    Indeed the databook can hype a technique/weapon.. However this was moreover a legend, leaving it as a story untold.. An allegory.. We cannot deduce rather it is correct or not.. But canonically we have evidence of said statements.
     
         

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    Re: (DrProof) Raikiri's Extirpating Aptitude

    Your argument is based on the Hype of Rikiri? I'd have thought better of you...your old self wouldn't have done a thread based on hype but proof. Or are you now... Dr. Hype?

    I've already seen several post that flaw your theory.
     
         

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    Re: (DrProof) Raikiri's Extirpating Aptitude

    Quote Originally Posted by DrProof View Post
    Hey Noddy, it is a great pleasure to debate with you. And as impossible as it seems, as it defies human logic itself as Lentz stated it is evidently a manga, and as I recall in my personal theory, real life logic can be applied "sometimes"..

    What I'm getting at is he's done it before as the Databook, and the manga itself has stated. I don't know how exactly (which is why I constructed this theory) but due to it being said canonically I can consistently believe that it was possible.
    Well, this is the issue I have. At least 50% of the descriptive statements in the databooks can be classed as bullshiit, more commonly known as 'hyperbole'. Raikiri being able to cut lightning may have been canonically stated, but as far as i'm concerned, this hype holds little value since from feats, Kakashi has never shown himself capable of movements with speeds exceeding that of 1000th of a second (which is the speed at which Kirin reaches the ground). Not only that, but Kakashi would have to move his arm though the entire Jutsu during this small interval, remembering that it was wide enough to both 'consume' Itachi's Susano'o and completely destroy a hill. I wouldn't go as far as saying Raikiri's hype is a lie, rather, that it is an example of common overexaggeration on Kishimoto's part. If Kakashi had/goes on to reveal movements and/or reflexes which put him on the level of reacting to and defeating a supposedly 'inescapable Jutsu', then I would probably reconsider.
     
         

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    Re: (DrProof) Raikiri's Extirpating Aptitude

    Quote Originally Posted by DrProof View Post
    Kishi does subconsciously admit it to being a legend, but it's obviously as the end result it results in being an allegory.. We cannot deduce rather our theories are correct 100%.. However, the manga has the most canonical reasons as to why the said statement can be true. Thus even if it defies human nature..






    Indeed the databook can hype a technique/weapon.. However this was moreover a legend, leaving it as a story untold.. An allegory.. We cannot deduce rather it is correct or not.. But canonically we have evidence of said statements.
    Seems like hyperbole to me. And as it is a legend, we cannot actually confirm Gai's statement. It's possible, but the odds are stacked against Raikiri. Kirin isn't your everyday Raiton technique.
     
         

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    Re: (DrProof) Raikiri's Extirpating Aptitude

    Quote Originally Posted by PuppyDogGeneral View Post
    Your argument is based on the Hype of Rikiri? I'd have thought better of you...your old self wouldn't have done a thread of this based on hype but proof.
    Or are you now... Dr. Hype?

    I've already seen several post that flaw your theory.
    You change your opinion of me, because of a thread such as this? That gives a situational opinion? If so your opinion means nothing as hence forth..

    OT: We cannot deduce rather or not said theory is true or not, as I've stated it is an Allegory.
     
         

  6. #56
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    Re: (DrProof) Raikiri's Extirpating Aptitude

    Noddy pretty much shutdown the thread...
     
         

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    Re: (DrProof) Raikiri's Extirpating Aptitude

    Quote Originally Posted by SasoriOfTheRedSaand View Post
    Pfft, no way man. Kakuzu nearly fried his hands off, and that was with chakra lightning, what makes you think his hands can withstand raw lightning? Not only that, but the magnitude it damages leaves Kakashi pretty much screwed. With that said, the jutsu is too large to be dispelled by simply raising your hands, with elemental chakra lightning.
    Hmm, you have some point in the lightning not matching the size of his hand, however, by simply accumulating enough static charge in his hand, it could be possible oppose or redistribute the lightning, thus actually forcing the lightning to split in 2 parts, divided evenly on each side of his hand or arm. That is of course that the size of the lightning upon impact does not differ too much compared to the hand, since else the distortion effect from the hand would mean nothing due to the power/force the lightning actually has.

    Where as the heat from the lightning pose no real thread to smaller objects, since the photons containing energy, will never reach into direct contact with the object, thus no heat exchange will be made.
     
         

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    Re: (DrProof) Raikiri's Extirpating Aptitude

    The answer to this will never be answered, unless kishi himself states Kakashi's raikiri hype is nothing more than caricature.....however to state that it didn't happen simply because we haven't seen it would be a logical fallacy.. thus really making the entire debate of whether this situation happened or not kind of pointless .....
    As Noddy said, The feats of Kakashi simply do not match up with the kind of superhuman prerequisites that would be needed to acomplish a task as cutting a lightning bolt...
     
         

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    Re: (DrProof) Raikiri's Extirpating Aptitude

    Quote Originally Posted by DrProof View Post
    You change your opinion of me, because of a thread such as this? That gives a situational opinion? If so your opinion means nothing as hence forth..

    OT: We cannot deduce rather or not said theory is true or not, as I've stated it is an Allegory.
    I'll stay on topic. A thread such as this has many equivalents..your argument is based on the hype (hyperbole) stated by Guy and the Data book that Raikiri could cut a lightening bolt and due to the fact it says so Kirin should fall under that category.

    Personally I'm not a Hype fanatic because most hype in the manga can't stand up for themselves but i would advise you look at it logically before making a theory.
     
         

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    Re: (DrProof) Raikiri's Extirpating Aptitude

    Da fuq
     
         

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    Re: (DrProof) Raikiri's Extirpating Aptitude

    Quote Originally Posted by Noddy View Post
    Well, this is the issue I have. At least 50% of the descriptive statements in the databooks can be classed as bullshiit, more commonly known as 'hyperbole'. Raikiri being able to cut lightning may have been canonically stated, but as far as i'm concerned, this hype holds little value since from feats, Kakashi has never shown himself capable of movements with speeds exceeding that of 1000th of a second (which is the speed at which Kirin reaches the ground). Not only that, but Kakashi would have to move his arm though the entire Jutsu during this small interval, remembering that it was wide enough to both 'consume' Itachi's Susano'o and completely destroy a hill. I wouldn't go as far as saying Raikiri's hype is a lie, rather, that it is an example of common overexaggeration on Kishimoto's part. If Kakashi had/goes on to reveal movements and/or reflexes which put him on the level of reacting to and defeating a supposedly 'inescapable Jutsu', then I would probably reconsider.
    Riddle me this then Noddy.. Why was Itachi able to construct his Susanoo faster and/or equal to the speed of Kirin?[1][2]
     
         

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    Re: (DrProof) Raikiri's Extirpating Aptitude

    So many big words that I do understand...nice theory tho :D
     
         

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    Re: (DrProof) Raikiri's Extirpating Aptitude

    Quote Originally Posted by SasoriOfTheRedSaand View Post
    Noddy pretty much shutdown the thread...
    You cannot simply "shut down" a theory such as this, seeing as it's an Allegory..
     
         

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    Re: (DrProof) Raikiri's Extirpating Aptitude

    Quote Originally Posted by thegame View Post
    Hmm, you have some point in the lightning not matching the size of his hand, however, by simply accumulating enough static charge in his hand, it could be possible oppose or redistribute the lightning, thus actually forcing the lightning to split in 2 parts, divided evenly on each side of his hand or arm. That is of course that the size of the lightning upon impact does not differ too much compared to the hand, since else the distortion effect from the hand would mean nothing due to the power/force the lightning actually has.

    Where as the heat from the lightning pose no real thread to smaller objects, since the photons containing energy, will never reach into direct contact with the object, thus no heat exchange will be made.
    We could debate this, but at the end of the day, you and I both know it's your opinion against mine. Not facts, opinions. Kakashi is way too slow to react to Kirin anyway, and Raw lighting is going to be tougher than the chakra enhanced Raikiri. Even if his hand splits part of it in two, a part of Kirin is always going to hit him.
     
         

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    Re: (DrProof) Raikiri's Extirpating Aptitude

    Riddle me this then Noddy.. Why was Itachi able to construct his Susanoo faster and/or equal to the speed of Kirin?[1][2]

    Who said he did? We didn't get to see around itahi's body.. he had more than enough time to start materializing susanno before it even started coming down
     
         

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    Re: (DrProof) Raikiri's Extirpating Aptitude

    Quote Originally Posted by DrProof View Post
    Riddle me this then Noddy.. Why was Itachi able to construct his Susanoo faster and/or equal to the speed of Kirin?[1][2]
    Kakashi couldn't even keep up with Itachi's hand signs though.....
     
         

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    Re: (DrProof) Raikiri's Extirpating Aptitude

    Quote Originally Posted by DrProof View Post
    Riddle me this then Noddy.. Why was Itachi able to construct his Susanoo faster and/or equal to the speed of Kirin?[1][2]
    simple, here's what i think happened.

    Firstly, we see that Sasuke takes quite a bit of time to prepare the jutsu (after the fire balls produced the storm). Zetsu himself was able to immediately understand the exact mechanics behind Kirin. Now as we know, Zetsu isn't exactly praised for having vast intellect lol. Zetsu was observing both Sasuke and the storm in the same way that Itachi was. Now can we really say that Itachi didn't know what was coming? Absolutely not. If Zetsu could so easily deduce the workings of Kirin long before the Jutsu was actually used, there is no denying that Itachi was quite aware of exactly what was about to happen. Not only this, but consider the fact that he has the Sharingan as well. This means that not only was Itachi aware of precisely what was coming through intellect, but he was also aware through what he could perceive with his Sharingan. It doesn't help that Sasuke himself outright stated to Itachi that the jutsu's power source is real lighting from the heavens lol. Then there is the fact that a giant beast made of lighting emerges from the clouds lol.

    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v43/c391/6.html
    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v43/c391/7.html

    So it has been established that Itachi was totally aware of what Kirin was, and how the jutsu functions. Now let us address the feat of him blocking it. As we see, Itachi's body remains out of view to the readers for the last few panels he is shown in just before Kirin is used. The view is focused completely on his face. Also keep in mind that Itachi already had his MS activated long before Kirin was used.

    Before I explain why Itachi did not react to the lighting itself, I first want to explain what the term "Aim Dodging" is. This is a concept involving gunfire, where the target is basing his reaction on the shooter him/herself, as opposed to the actual bullet. When Aim Dodging, you are not dodging the bullet itself after it is fired. Rather, you are reacting to the aim of the gun and remaining out of the gun's direction. Another interpretation is when you are focusing on the shooter's trigger finger. You watch carefully for the very moment that the shooter's finger squeezes the trigger, and get out of the shooter's aim at the very second you see him squeeze the trigger. When doing this, you are actually dodging the gunfire a split-second before the actual bullet leaves the gun, hence you are not dodging the bullet by any means.

    This is what Itachi did. Now of course, he isn't "aim dodging" in the sense that he's getting out of Sasuke's aim or the jutsu's path. However, he is reacting to when Sasuke fires the jutsu, rather than the jutsu itself. As we know, Sasuke must use his Raiton chakra to take command of the lightning. It is after this point that he uses his hand to guide the jutsu directly onto his opponent. Meaning the jutsu is firing completely on Sasuke's cue. This is virtually akin to the concept of a shooter firing his gun. The bullet itself will not leave the gun until the trigger is pulled by the shooter. Comparatively, Kirin's lighting bolt will not descend onto the target until Sasuke throws his hand down, and guides it. Now keep in mind, Sasuke blatantly tells Itachi that all he needs to do is guide it right through his skull. At this point, Itachi now knows not only the jutsu's mechanics, but he also knows the cue of which Sasuke is going to use the execute the jutsu.

    The cue being this: http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v43/c391/8.html

    That being said, Itachi could have simply timed his Susanoo on the instant Sasuke threw his hand down, thus executing the jutsu. Once Sasuke throws down his hand, we see a closeup on Itachi's face being covered in the jutsu's light. If he timed his Susanoo for the instant that Sasuke threw down his hand, it is quite obvious that by the time we see Itachi bathed in light, he had already initiated his Susanoo.

    So considering these things, it is quite evident that Itachi was timing his Susanoo for when Sasuke threw down his hand to guide Kirin down on Itachi. As the Itachi supporters aptly put, Itachi is quite intelligent. Now barring in mind how fast real lightning is, do we all really believe that Itachi purposely waited until the instant after the lightning struck to defend against it? Remember that Itachi quite obviously knew exactly what was coming (unless someone wishes to argue that Zetsu is smarter than Itachi lol). So here we have a genius shinobi that is aware of the fact that he is about to get blasted by real lighting that strikes at possibly relativistic speeds. What are the chances that Itachi, knowing these things, decided to gamble his reaction speeds against lightning itself, whereas he could take the much safer approach and time his reaction on Sasuke's cue? This would ensure that he could have Susanoo up the instant before the lightning strikes and guarantee that he survives.
     
         

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    Re: (DrProof) Raikiri's Extirpating Aptitude

    Quote Originally Posted by Owarij View Post

    Who said he did? We didn't get to see around itahi's body.. he had more than enough time to start materializing susanno before it even started coming down
    Then how do you speculate that Itachi can't react at the same speed, and extirpate Kirin?

    OT: Good Debating Owarij, you to Noddy, I can't wait to debate again on other topics.



    Quote Originally Posted by -Yami- View Post
    Kakashi couldn't even keep up with Itachi's hand signs though.....
    True, but that was back in part 1..
     
         

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    Re: (DrProof) Raikiri's Extirpating Aptitude

    Quote Originally Posted by DrProof View Post
    Riddle me this then Noddy.. Why was Itachi able to construct his Susanoo faster and/or equal to the speed of Kirin?[1][2]
    - Sasuke stood there and practically told Itachi what was about to happen
    - Itachi activated Susano'o off panel, before Kirin began to move
     
         

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    Re: (DrProof) Raikiri's Extirpating Aptitude



    manga already brought some doubt (as you can see ino and sakura doubting this) to the fact that kakashi can cut lightning

    also kakashi cut a lightning bolt (supposedly), kirin will engulf him. he can't possibly defend against it.

    noddy pretty much killed the thread, he simply can't react fast enough
     
         

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    Re: (DrProof) Raikiri's Extirpating Aptitude

    Quote Originally Posted by Noddy View Post
    - Sasuke stood there and practically told Itachi what was about to happen
    - Itachi activated Susano'o off panel, before Kirin began to move
    However being off panel is a prediction, or speculation on your part is it not? As we can not actually see such happening. Thus supporting my argument further.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sexy Steel View Post


    manga already brought some doubt (as you can see ino and sakura doubting this) to the fact that kakashi can cut lightning

    also kakashi cut a lightning bolt (supposedly), kirin will engulf him. he can't possibly defend against it.

    noddy pretty much killed the thread, he simply can't react fast enough
    Agreed that Kirin is a huge bolt of lightning however, why couldn't Kakashi simply extirpate upward with Raikiri? Has extirpating upward not cut severed anything in real life physics?

    But their doubting the said "Legend" supports my theory on it being an Allegory.. It simply cannot be deemed correct or incorrect.
     
         

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    Re: (DrProof) Raikiri's Extirpating Aptitude

    Quote Originally Posted by SasoriOfTheRedSaand View Post
    We could debate this, but at the end of the day, you and I both know it's your opinion against mine. Not facts, opinions. Kakashi is way too slow to react to Kirin anyway, and Raw lighting is going to be tougher than the chakra enhanced Raikiri. Even if his hand splits part of it in two, a part of Kirin is always going to hit him.
    Yeah, I never disagreed on this. My initial answer to this thread, was that it is simply a metaphor used by Kishi. I was simply trying to deem it possible with human logic + manga logic. It could happen, no doubt, but it would require immense luck and anticipation. Say Kakashi was in a thunderstorm for many days, a setup could be made, so that a lightning would strike at a certain location more times than all the other locations inside the storm. Thus having luck and anticipation, it could be timed, so that he would strike the lightning. If one were to simply interact with the lightning momentarily, say less than 0,01 seconds, it would not cause damage to the person.

    Though as I said, I believe it is a metaphor. Kakashi would simply have no reason to even give it a try, nor is he stupid enough to stay in the middle of a thunderstorm for a longer period of time.

    Even airplanes traveling with about 800 kmh are hit by lightnings. The speed, which they travel with, are one of the main factors, for the low-damage taken, allowing the plane to complete its travel. Though I would believe most are landed afterwards just to be sure. Of course an airplane has several other factors, which determine the outcome, however, the people inside it feels nothing, or so I would believe (never tried it). In the end, however, this is a manga. I mean Kishi even explains much at a molecular/cellular level already.
     
         

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    Re: (DrProof) Raikiri's Extirpating Aptitude

    Quote Originally Posted by DrProof View Post
    However being off panel is a prediction, or speculation on your part is it not? As we can not actually see such happening. Thus supporting my argument further.
    Fair enough, it's totally up to you if you want to take that stance.
     
         

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    Re: (DrProof) Raikiri's Extirpating Aptitude

    In regards to Kakashi ever actually having cut a lightning bolt, the part that strikes me is when Gai stated he did it, Kakashi never denied it. Ever since Obito's "death", Kakashi has been more of a mellow character. He's never been one to hype himself up or talk about his "accomplishments", even at times stating people have surpassed him when it doesn't really appear to have been the case(Naruto after the Kakuzu fight). It seems to me he would have denied the claim if it were false, but that's just an assumption.

    Him cutting Kirin though? I doubt it. It's size is just far too much, even if the speed is not. Raiden probably could cut through it..but if he manages to distance himself from his clone quickly enough to even use the technique and cut through kirin, he may as well just avoid the attack instead.
     
         

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    Re: (DrProof) Raikiri's Extirpating Aptitude

    Quote Originally Posted by thegame View Post
    Yeah, I never disagreed on this. My initial answer to this thread, was that it is simply a metaphor used by Kishi. I was simply trying to deem it possible with human logic + manga logic. It could happen, no doubt, but it would require immense luck and anticipation. Say Kakashi was in a thunderstorm for many days, a setup could be made, so that a lightning would strike at a certain location more times than all the other locations inside the storm. Thus having luck and anticipation, it could be timed, so that he would strike the lightning. If one were to simply interact with the lightning momentarily, say less than 0,01 seconds, it would not cause damage to the person. Even airplanes traveling with about 800 kmh are hit by lightnings. The speed, which they travel with, are one of the main factors, for the low-damage taken, allowing the plane to complete its travel. Though I would believe most are landed afterwards just to be sure. Of course an airplane has several other factors, which determine the outcome, however, the people inside it feels nothing, or so I would believe (never tried it). In the end, however, this is a manga. I mean Kishi even explains much at a molecular/cellular level already.
    I agree. And to the statement that Kishi explains into the cellular level etc.. He explains into mythology as well, and scientific notions at times.
     
         

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