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  1. #41
    Senior Member eyesofthekyuubi44's Avatar
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    Re: How would Naruto fare in the Kage encounter if he swapped with Sasuke???

    Quote Originally Posted by Nanaki View Post
    "man ur logic is crap..."

    If you're going to make a statement like that you should really make better posts.....



    "'He did not defeat Pain. He defeated the six paths of pain, but those were simply puppets of Nagato's. He never actually fought the real Nagato so you cannot say he defeated him. Saying he defeated Pain for destroying the six paths of pain is like saying Sakura and Chiyo defeated Sasori when they took out the 3rd Kazekage and the 100 puppets.

    yea thats also like saying " you kicked sasukes ass, layed his susano and all other eye tricks to waste" BUT YOU DIDNT BEAT HIM BC MADARA saved him lol"

    Ummm.....no......no its not. Sasuke is an actual person. Beating Sasuke's ass is beating Sasuke's ass. Its really a simple concept and I'm a little shocked you can't grasp it. The six paths of pain are corpses that are being controlled by Nagato. They are no different than puppets such as the ones Kankaro or Sasori used. Defeating the puppets, is not defeating the puppet master. I really don't see how your example is in any way related to what I said.....

    "cmon really? defeated his 6 paths but not him? and what happened when konan said bla bla bla finish him off and he didnt, what else could he do?? he already tried a short rangge chakra stick attack... didnt work..."

    Oh no! Naruto can resist Nagato's chakra at close range! What ever will he do?! Nagato has the rinnengan.....the eye technique that was said to give rise to ALL JUTSU! What makes you think he can't use the same techniques as his puppets? What about Gedo Maze? He used that without the need of a puppet when Hanzo attacked him. Hell he killed Hanzo with the use of his puppets. But no you're right, all he can do is use chakra sticks. LOL.


    "i totally disagree when u compare naruto vs nagato with sasuke vs itachi... i mean cmon.... itachi would have annihalated sasuke.. nagato couldnt"

    I was comparing the ending situation of both fights. In both fights the stronger character ended up dead. Itachi planned his death from the beginning to give Sasuke the MS. Pain's mind was changed by Naruto's words so he decided to sacrifice himself to revive Konoha.
    One thing we need to know though is what abilities the actual Nagato has. We have NO idea what the actual Nagato can do using his OWN body vs. the corpses. Until we know that he can do more than revive the dead and use chakra rods, Naruto is stronger.

    True, in his fight with Hanzo he used Gedo Mazo and Shinra Tensei, but we haven't seen those since his flashback. Shinra Tensei did a lot of good against Naruto in the first place, (although it is one of my favorite techniques), and Gedo Mazo...Can Nagato really get any more rods in his back? Look at the state he was in.
     
         

  2. #42
    Senior Member eyesofthekyuubi44's Avatar
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    Re: How would Naruto fare in the Kage encounter if he swapped with Sasuke???

    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyria View Post
    Now, now guys. Let's not derail this thread :D

    eyesofthekyuubi44 we've already had this discussion already in the Naruto vs Raikage thread. Pain/Nagato was already nerfed enough so that it'd seem somewhat possible/credible for Naruto to come out on up. The easiest way to put it is, if both Naruto and Pain both encountered each other randomly and were both willing to kill each other then the fight certainly stacks toward Pain. Mainly because Naruto won't be in Sage mode at the very beginning, he won't have multiple sage clones as backup power source, he won't have summons to back him up straight away, non-fighting personnel used as distractions and he certainly won't have important intel like the 5 sec rule and other path powers with instant updates from a healing slug. On the other side you'd have a fresh Pain with actual killing intent, Tendou pain fully powered at the very start and the valuable information of Pain's individual powers still intact. Don't forget that Naruto's fighting style is primarily Rasengans and Kage Bushins and that is how he fights from the get go. There's not a lot of info to be gotten from him as it's pretty straight forward and not comparable to Pain's abilities which are basically otherworldly.
    We've already discussed this on this thread. Naruto doesnt kill for one. Summonings have already proven worthwhile to distract when one enters Sage Mode. NEITHER ONE OF THEM HAD KILLING INTENT.Like the whole purpose of the fight was to show how Naruto had not given into revenge. Itachi had fought Naruto, and probably had to give info. Kakashi said that the main purpose of the Naruto and Itachi fight in Part II was to stall and get info. Naruto has elaborate back-up plans, and uses Kage Bunshins for deception. Heck, Narutos CLONE was about enough to take out Preta Path. His Rasengans and Kage Bunshins equate about enough info from him as does the intel they got on Pain. Nagato would have 6 different bodies with different abilities fighting one, not only that but they are linked. Naruto won. Thus, he's stronger.
     
         

  3. #43
    Bieberlicious <3 Valkyria's Avatar
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    Re: How would Naruto fare in the Kage encounter if he swapped with Sasuke???

    Quote Originally Posted by eyesofthekyuubi44 View Post
    We've already discussed this on this thread. Naruto doesnt kill for one. Summonings have already proven worthwhile to distract when one enters Sage Mode. NEITHER ONE OF THEM HAD KILLING INTENT.Like the whole purpose of the fight was to show how Naruto had not given into revenge. Itachi had fought Naruto, and probably had to give info. Kakashi said that the main purpose of the Naruto and Itachi fight in Part II was to stall and get info. Naruto has elaborate back-up plans, and uses Kage Bunshins for deception. Heck, Narutos CLONE was about enough to take out Preta Path. His Rasengans and Kage Bunshins equate about enough info from him as does the intel they got on Pain. Nagato would have 6 different bodies with different abilities fighting one, not only that but they are linked. Naruto won. Thus, he's stronger.
    Of course Naruto had killing intent. This guy had at the time killed 2 of his Sensei's and flattened his entire village and all because he was coming for him. We saw him obliterate Azura Path with his Rasengan and Rasenshuriken is a one hit kill jutsu. He almost gave into the Kyuubi because he wanted it that bad. It was his father Minato that put some sense back into him and helped him remember who he was and what he should've been fighting for. All high level ninja are expected to be deceptive. That's a given. But like I said, Naruto's fighting is basically Rasengans and Kage Bunshins. It was one of the first things he did and info on that regard would have not made any difference. Info about Frog kata's and Rasenshuriken are something Pain didn't have. They are in no way equal to the info they had on Pain. The most important piece of info was Deva Path's 5 second rule which was found out by Kakashi and relied to Naruto by Katsuya. The only reason they found out was because it was 7 ppl vs 1 at the time and the difference was noticeable. Wouldn't have been the same with 5 Path backing up Deva. Preta Path was taken because Katsuya had immediately given info that he prefers to asorb jutsu. Naraka path was taken out because Naruto was given the info that all Pain have shared eyesight and he exploited this confidence in his vision. Animal Path was taken out because of his Ma and Pa's plan. You have to remember that Sage clones have a limit. Animal Path can spam summons like nothing. Naruto wouldn't have been able to defeat the Cerebus summon and been fighting the other summons for that matter w/o that tactic. He would've been using precious time and energy fending them off whilst the other Pain in action as well. In that previous I listed the obvious factors into why Naruto had won. The manga is called Naruto so he has to win and it had to be plausible.
     
         

  4. #44
    is carbon based. Ira's Avatar
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    Re: How would Naruto fare in the Kage encounter if he swapped with Sasuke???

    Quote Originally Posted by Nanaki View Post
    I feel like in every thread discussing Naruto's strength someone always tries to say Naruto "defeated" Pain. This NEVER happened. First of all you must take into the fact that Pain did not want to kill Naruto. That greatly alters the path of the battle. Then consider the fact that Pain had just laid waste to the ENTIRE village of Konoha. He killed multiple top shinobi including Kakashi, and he made Tsunade exert herself to the point of falling into a coma. On top of that, Pain had Naruto pinned down this his chakra bolt thing stuck through Naruto's hands. The battle at this point was OVER. It only continued because Hinata interfered and got Naruto to release his Kyuubi chakra. Then even after this Naruto was then imprisoned in a mini-moon which he broke out of thanks to 8 tails of Kyuubi power. In this case the word Kyuubi can be subbed out for "main char". Then if you actually pay attention to their meeting in Konan's paper tree, it is clear that Nagato has the ability to kill Naruto. It is only through Naruto's words that Nagato changes his heart and sacrifices himself to revive the fallen shinobi of Konoha.

    Saying Naruto defeated Pain is like saying Sasuke defeated Itachi. It just never happened.

    You really didn't need to give us whole account of Pain's attack on Konoha. We all read the manga. One can win the toughest battle and still can lose the war on the table, like Nagato did.

    Naruto defeated Pain and other puppets physically. It was only after defeating Pain, Naruto reached Nagato himself.

    Naruto was able to defeat Nagato on psychological level and it was Naruto who succeeded in the end of the fight. He got Nagato to do what he wanted and change him. Naruto won- simple.

    If Pain was spent so was Naruto, as he came directly from his training. Pain might not have wanted to kill Naruto himself but, he had no problem finishing of entire village, he was not concerned by fate of Konoha. Naruto might have wanted to kill Pain but, then he had to consider that Konoha doesn't get any more damage that it had already sustained. It was his handicapt.

    Regarding what would have happenned if Nagato choose to fight, most of the arguments are circular by nature. We can debate all day and we will never reach an agreement. It is a moot point.
     
         
    Last edited by Ira; 10-14-2009 at 11:05 AM.

  5. #45
    Academy Student ZGMFX1586Edea's Avatar
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    Re: How would Naruto fare in the Kage encounter if he swapped with Sasuke???

    Who's stronger is a very subjective question. The reason being is that the data we collected to answer that particular question relies heavily on our own point of view when reading the manga and/or watching the anime. Let me give an example :

    Lets say that Naruto fought with........Kisame. After 2 hours of intense battle, Kisame cornered Naruto and was almost ready to cut Naruto's head off. But..Kisame didn't, he chose to simply walk away and leave Naruto there half dead. Q : Who is stronger? Kisame or Naruto?. The logical conclusion is that Kisame's stronger than Naruto. But, Naruto's die hard fans will say something like "he didn't enter his SM, or maybe Kyuubi mode and thats why he lost, if not Kisame will be on deep shit tool". Some fans will probably analyse on why Kisame "retreated", they probably come up with an analysis that Kisame was afraid that Naruto entered the Kyuubi or Sage Mode if cornered, and in the end they would say that Kisame will be in deep shit tool if Naruto use either one. See what I mean?

    We tend to analyse the situation by adding the gap between each page in manga with our own interpretation (e.g : What would have happened if it goes "this" way). With "this" is our own interpretation of how the story goes. To most people, this is done automatically. Which is part of the excitement on reading manga and waiting for the next one. However, this is also the reason that make some of us tend to ignore some facts and keep pushing their own point of view. They don't like their interpretation challenged.

    Nagato had Naruto cornered and pinned down in manga during the battle at Konoha, but Hinata came in, fought Nagato and ended up almost dead. Which in turn sent Naruto into berserk and activated the kyuubi mode. Nagato got Naruto pinned down and that's all there is to it, don't add another assumption that he could have killed Naruto but he didn't. On the other hand, Naruto defeated the 6 paths of Pain, went to confront the real pain, get hit with the chakra controlling stick at close range and was able to resist Nagato chakra. That's all there is to it, don't add another stuff like Gedo Maze or whatever thing that Nagato could have pulled but he didn't or the stuff that Naruto could have easily killed him but he didn't. In the end, Nagato entrusted Naruto with His dream and died after using his remaining chakra to revive those that he killed in Konoha.

    In my interpretation, defeat means only when that person lose more than the other. In Nagato vs Naruto case......Naruto lose Jiraiya, Nagato lose his life......so, there is no winner since there is no loser. That's why, I quote what Naruto said to the party assigned to find the real pain "Win, lose....is that really matter", there was no winner on that day, they all lose something.

    I think i am going off track here, so let me summarize before i go too far away w.r.t the topic. Naruto would have fared better than Sasuke in his fight against the Kages, I based this on what appear in manga only, such as SM speed, Endurance, Power and the fact that he can use clone to accumulate Chakra as backup. Sasuke only have 1 chakra and there is no backup and he sure can't use natural chakra either. So, please don't say something like "heh, there is no way Naruto would be given a chance to call his chakra backup, Raikage/Mizukage/Tsuchikage would kick him in the head before he could have pulled it off." This is what I called "between page" interpretation. If all naruto's battle ended up by kicking the bad guy head or stab him/her b4 they could do hand seals....Naruto's manga will be pretty lame, right?

    Okay.........I have no idea what I said here, but i typed it already, so I might as well post it.
     
         

  6. #46
    is carbon based. Ira's Avatar
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    Re: How would Naruto fare in the Kage encounter if he swapped with Sasuke???

    Quote Originally Posted by ZGMFX1586Edea View Post
    Who's stronger is a very subjective question.
    Yep.

    Lets say that Naruto fought with........Kisame. After 2 hours of intense battle, Kisame cornered Naruto and was almost ready to cut Naruto's head off. But..Kisame didn't, he chose to simply walk away and leave Naruto there half dead. Q : Who is stronger? Kisame or Naruto?. The logical conclusion is that Kisame's stronger than Naruto. But, Naruto's die hard fans will say something like "he didn't enter his SM, or maybe Kyuubi mode and thats why he lost, if not Kisame will be on deep shit tool". Some fans will probably analyse on why Kisame "retreated", they probably come up with an analysis that Kisame was afraid that Naruto entered the Kyuubi or Sage Mode if cornered, and in the end they would say that Kisame will be in deep shit tool if Naruto use either one. See what I mean?

    And if Naruto beats Kisame up, Naruto haters are going to say- that's only because Naruto has that Kyuubi chakra. It wouldn't matter that handling Kyuubi chakra is also a strength and a part of Naruto. Temari can use her fan , then Naruto can use Kyuubi. XP

    Nagato had the most powerful Eye and was at least of Minato's age.. Naruto still a kid who even hasn't mastered Sage mode fully. Hinata interviened becase Nagato gave her time, being in talkative mood. No real fight is ever fought based on databooks.



    We tend to analyse the situation by adding the gap between each page in manga with our own interpretation (e.g : What would have happened if it goes "this" way).

    Yes- Data book would have told you Hidan stronger than Shikamaru and he was but yet he lost. Such arguments rely too much on hypothetical situations and that's why I called it a circular argument.



    I think i am going off track here, so let me summarize before i go too far away w.r.t the topic. Naruto would have fared better than Sasuke in his fight against the Kages, I based this on what appear in manga only, such as SM speed, Endurance, Power and the fact that he can use clone to accumulate Chakra as backup.

    Who knows? He would start talking and all the kages would accept defeat in leiu of getting him to shut his mouth up!
     
         

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