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  1. #101
    Member Guilty as Sin's Avatar
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    Re: Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiinoob64 View Post
    hey so can i ask you something ( off topic but i really wanted to know ) .. does the bible say anything specific about ghost or human spirits. You know like paranormal phenomenon? :confused: (or maybe people who didn't cross over)
    That's an intriguing question, and something that I'm not very familiar with. In Luke 24:39, Jesus says "Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have". Basically, after Jesus resurrected and appeared to his disciples, they were astonished and though he was a "spirit". The NIV renders this "ghost", but the ESV (which is the above translation), is more literal (spirit = pneuma).

    I don't believe that ghosts are "human spirits". I do not accept the idea of purgatory or limbo; I hold the view that when one dies, they either go to heaven or hell immediately. However, I am open to the idea that there are "spirits", whatever that may be. Perhaps angels, perhaps demons. Alas, I do not know. Sorry I could not be of much help
     
         

  2. #102
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    Re: Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

    Quote Originally Posted by Mante View Post
    how can son and the father be one? Also, why does he has to send his own son to be brutally murder for the sins that we never comit, but Adam and Eve did?
    This is a question with a complicated answer. I think John is a terse theological statement about the nature of what Christians call "the Trinity".

    Briefly:

    "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

    First, the first part states that the Word existed in the beginning. In other words, this word was eternal. The second statement says that this eternal Word was with God. The interesting thing is that "with" denotes distinction. If I said I were with you, I would be implicitly saying that I am not you, I am me. The next statement becomes even more interesting: the Word was God.

    How can the Word be both with God and be God at the same time? It would be like saying I am with myself, right?

    Well, not quite. The beauty of the language is lost in the English, but marvelously displayed in Greek. In short, when it says that the Word is God, the syntax suggests a qualitative assertion. In other words, the Word is qualitatively God. He is, in essence God.

    How is he with God? The Word is with God in that he is not "the Father", he is "the Son". This is the gist of the Trinity: God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three separate persons. They are not 1 person occurring in three forms. They are distinct and unique. However, they are each have the quality or essence of God/divinity. Yet there are not three gods, there is only one. In this way, the Word is God (has the essence/quality of divinity) and is with God (is distinct in personhood from God aka the Father).

    This is what Scriptures affirm. How this "works" is a mystery to me. Some people have pointed out helpful (although imperfect examples) of H2O (liquid, solid, gas; one compound) and marriage (two people become one flesh). All I know is that this is what the Scriptures teach.

    Jesus' Godhood enables him to say what he said in John 14:7: "If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.” To know the Son is to know the Father. To see the Son is to see the Father. Why? Because the Son and the Father are "one". If it's complicated, it is only because God is God. It's even crazier to suggest that God became incarnate (in the flesh).

    But this is who Jesus is. It's exactly why the Jews tried to kill him. Because they thought he was blaspheming the name of God by identifying himself with Him. Normally, they'd be right. Normally anyone who called themselves God would be considered a nutjob. But it turns out this "Jesus" really was God. And it's not really a leap of faith; Jesus accompanied his words with deeds. He demonstrated his divinity visibly by his actions. He raised Lazarus from the dead, he walked on water, he healed the sick. God loved us even to the point of condescend himself to our fleshly nature so that he could be with us and give to us eternal life.
     
         
    Last edited by Guilty as Sin; 01-31-2013 at 05:58 AM. Reason: Clarity

  3. #103
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    Re: Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

    U r in denial. U do know that bible has been changed m
    any times ( if u don't then please gtfo )
    Unfortunately my friend heaven does exist. If u want to know more about it, then maybe u should read Quran ( the holy book of Muslims ) it really is an eye opener.
    And ur welcome in advance
     
         

  4. #104
    Member Guilty as Sin's Avatar
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    Re: Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

    Quote Originally Posted by Mante View Post
    how can son and the father be one? Also, why does he has to send his own son to be brutally murder for the sins that we never comit, but Adam and Eve did?
    Now to answer your second question. This is another question with a complex answer. I'll try to be brief and to the point.

    First, let me say that Adam's sin is something that we inherit. Adam and Eve are representatives of humanity and their sin not only effects them, it effects everyone, even the earth itself. You and I are witnesses to that. We see it in the news: murder, rape, hate, violence, homophobia, racism; the list goes on. The Biblical worldview says that all this is a result of our sinful nature, our corruption that all began in Adam and Eve.

    Our problem is not just the sins we commit; it's our sinful nature from which those sins flow forth. This nature is diametrically opposed to God. God is not sending his Son to die for you because you once looked at a girl wrong or you stole your aunt's 20, you know what I mean? God sent his Son to die in order to abolish, destroy, and conquer sin. This is the movement of the entire Bible. God creates, creation mucks it up, and God makes things right through Jesus Christ.

    God wants to reconcile this divide between himself and his creation. This is why he reveals himself in his word and through Jesus. He wants to have fellowship with us, but guess what? People reject him. You know who I'm talking about. You see it all the time. People hate God. People hate the Bible. It's all a myth. It's just false hope. Or is it?

    In the end, Jesus becomes the only way. Why? Because he's the only guy who is righteous. He's the only one who actually deserved to go to heaven. Turns out this guy was also God. Turns out, if you simply believe in him and what he has done, God counts you as righteous. You don't just have your sins "wiped", you're actually righteous as far as God is concerned. And here is another thing: You can't accept Jesus Christ as your savior, as the one who cleanses you and gives you a righteous standing before God if you think you're a good guy.

    This is the problem people have with Christianity. They think that they're alright. They're good people. They may have done some wrong, but surely that's no reason for eternity in hell, right? In other words, they don't need Jesus Christ. Ouch. If they were right, I guess Jesus died for nothing. I guess they really don't need God.

    But Jesus didn't come to save the "righteous". He came to save the lost. If you don't think your lost, go look elsewhere; I hear the Hindus say that if you're a cool guy you'll come back as a rockstar or something. But don't be surprised when you find out that you rejected, spurned, and trivialized God's gift to the world: his Son.

    I know it's tough, but when you compare yourself to a murderer, I think any normal human being would be pretty alright. But when you compare yourself to God, it doesn't matter if you're 5 inches taller then the next guy, you're both ants when it comes to the 100 foot giant that is God, understand?

    That's why you have many Christians "imposing" their beliefs on you. I know it's annoying, but hey, they're just trying to share the good news. They just want you to hear about what Jesus Christ has already done for you. Believe it or not, some Christians don't like the idea that people are going to hell, and neither does God. That's why he sends out his disciples to spread the good news. Shame on me if I keep my mouth shut, even if it gets me ridiculed.
     
         
    Last edited by Guilty as Sin; 01-31-2013 at 05:52 AM. Reason: Grammar

  5. #105
    Member RaiTazaOfTheCloud's Avatar
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    Re: Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

    i dont get how that was selfish god created jesus to die for all our sins jesus became a man and when he did hehad human emotions he didn't bring him back just because he was sad he brought hiim back as a mircale to show people god's power
     
         

  6. #106
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    Re: Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

    Religion is far beyond humans mind there are things that man kind cannot understand because god created us limited
    I thing that much very much people of this world will burn in hell because they sin every day every second
    But one thing about the cristian catholic religion i do not understand
    Did Jesus ever said you shall pray to me or to my mother ( ave maria ) no he said nothing of that so it is wrong a part of the cristian religion was build on false ground
     
         

  7. #107
    Senior Member Micho22's Avatar
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    Re: Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

    Jesus was the messenger of god a holy person choosed by God
    Maria was the most nobelst women in cristian religion and Muslim religion
    But fact is jesus never never said that he is god and that the people shoud pray to him
    If jesus is god why did he not wrote the bible by himself the gospels everything was written by other peoples
    How can other peoples write things about jesus even if they where his friends
    That is impossible jesus never said that he is god and that the people shoud pray to him and his mother
     
         

  8. #108
    Senior Member Micho22's Avatar
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    Re: Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

    Everything was written at 100 nc so 100 years after his death by other people so think of it
     
         

  9. #109
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    Re: Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

    Jesus created Edo Tensei
     
         

  10. #110
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    Re: Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

    Quote Originally Posted by Micho22 View Post
    Jesus was the messenger of god a holy person choosed by God
    Maria was the most nobelst women in cristian religion and Muslim religion
    But fact is jesus never never said that he is god and that the people shoud pray to him
    If jesus is god why did he not wrote the bible by himself the gospels everything was written by other peoples
    How can other peoples write things about jesus even if they where his friends
    That is impossible jesus never said that he is god and that the people shoud pray to him and his mother
    people wrote down what they witnessed to help us learn the ways of God,to enable us believe more in God. without the Bible people would have doubts or up coming children won't know much about God every generation would get a watered down version of what actually happened.......also like the books people write they re their to educate you right from child hood....
    People take it to be a holy book become the Bible talks about God.
     
         

  11. #111
    Senior Member asad70ful's Avatar
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    Re: Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

    i havent read bible,but i have read QURAN(bcoz am mulsim)(in ur spellings KORAN) and it is stated more than one time that
    truthful,honest,just,and who have better virtues than sins will go to heaven.(NOTE:this pervious line isnt real,its just summary of many verses of QURAN)

    and dont hate me
    christianity isnt only religion in the world
     
         

  12. #112
    Senior Member Baka Sennin's Avatar
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    Re: Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

    imo it's because the notion of time doesn't exist in heaven... we're supposed to go there for eternity after all and i always thought it would be unfair for those who lived 10k years ago to enjoy it longer than I would xD

    at any rate, imo Jesus was just a VERY holy person who had walked further down the path of enlightenment than anyone else, which allowed him to work miracles etc. the bible is in my opinion, a series of methaphors and lessons which give us the key to lead better lives. idon't think it's a biography, it's more of a coded message to the power of man to attain a godly state imo.
     
         

  13. #113
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    Re: Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

    Quote Originally Posted by TruthLover19 View Post
    U r in denial. U do know that bible has been changed m
    any times ( if u don't then please gtfo )
    Unfortunately my friend heaven does exist. If u want to know more about it, then maybe u should read Quran ( the holy book of Muslims ) it really is an eye opener.
    And ur welcome in advance
    I never said Heaven doesn't exist.
     
         

  14. #114
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    Re: Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

    sinning was indeed forgiven by God before Jesus died on the cross, but for the people who indeed know some aspect of the bible you'll know that when we die with God's forgiveness we're are not immediately admitted into heaven, the scriptures say those who die go to a place of rest for when God comes for his church these spirits would rise first... so its not a matter that Jesus toke laza out of heaven, and indeed in part it was to show his power over death "Marta" (Spanish version) was laza's sister and when Jesus came she said she was waiting for some time, and they were still grieving him at the time. tears Rad down Jesus face meaning he cried for the death of his friend because indeed they were good friends. in the bible JESUS WAS INDEED THE SON OF GOD, AND HE WAS 100% MAN ALSO 100% GOD its in the bible look it up.. now it makes no sense if your gonna read just one little part and assign whatever meaning u THINK it has, this is wrong.
     
         

  15. #115
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    Re: Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

    As i learned in catholic school,after adam and eve's disobedience of God,and after being kicked out of eden,the whole human lineage was imprinted with their sin,the primordial sin.That's why God promised them that he will send his son as a sacrafice.And as i recall,humans that died before the coming of christ could not get into heaven for they were also guilty of the primordial sin(defying God's command).So if Lazzarus couldn't get into heaven,he would go to hell,and jesus being a good friend ressurected him so he wouldn't suffer in the pits of hell(a little bit unfair to the other people that had to go to hell,but w/e ).After the crucifiction of christ,the gates of heaven had opened and the good souls that had suffered in hell went to heaven.

    P.S. This is what i remembered from this.I do not belive in any of this,just trying to help with the question.
     
         

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    Re: Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

    As a Christian I need to comment on this due to the miss-concepts people have about heaven or hell. The Lazarus story was to portray the power of our love God Jehovah and his son Jesus Christ. The bible speaks about heaven and only the saints would live there. The saints are chosen by God and the amount would be 144 thousand. The rest of God righteous people would live on the new earth that God would provide for them. So not all God's righteous people would be placed in heaven. People there is the book called revelation that speaks about this controversial topic. Another thing when we die the bible says in the old testament that we are put in a deep sleep. He even said that the dead is not aware of anything nor do they have a conscious. So when Lazarus was awaken from the death it was not really of a big deal to him because to him it felt like waking up. So the whole idea of heaven and hell is really read and interpreted out of context. When we die we wait until judgement day so yes we would be all in a deep sleep only God saints would be chosen to live with him in heaven directly but the rest of God's children would be resurrected to live on the new Jerusalem meaning the new earth that God would provide. The wicked would not be resurrected and that is an entirely different topic lol.
     
         

  17. #117
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    Re: Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

    Quote Originally Posted by Micho22 View Post
    Religion is far beyond humans mind there are things that man kind cannot understand because god created us limited
    I thing that much very much people of this world will burn in hell because they sin every day every second
    But one thing about the cristian catholic religion i do not understand
    Did Jesus ever said you shall pray to me or to my mother ( ave maria ) no he said nothing of that so it is wrong a part of the cristian religion was build on false ground
    You're as delusional as one can get.
    1. Organised religion teaches, like you mentioned, that we are inferior to this phenomenon we call god. That is a delusion, since god is not something external. We are god, and can only found ourselves when we look deep inside our own being, we failed to find that using religion so it's time to stop deluding ourselves with external means.

    2. 'Hell' and 'Sin' are used way too much. stop it.. It's just a story made to symbolize what we can create on earth. (heaven/hell), but the curch uses it to scare the sheep and to keep them in line with it.

    3. Indeed, religion is too much for most people to grasp the concept of, since they fell victim to cultural/religious dogma that imprison their mind. They can't think anymore, only 'believe' and 'follow'.
     
         

  18. #118
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    Re: Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

    who so ever doubt the existince of heaven is drunk,and whosover misquote the bible is a failure.......
     
         

  19. #119
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    Re: Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

    Heaven and Hell are both created on earth. The afterlife is what you leave for your next generation.
     
         

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    Re: Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

    i am not a christian i am a muslim so i dont care about these stories
     
         

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    Re: Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

    First and foremost Heaven and hell is real....u talk of christ raising lazarus from the dead and twisted that scripture to your belief...if you read the bible well..during the baptism of christ..the heavens opend...during his transfiguration..the heavens opend...do not forget the parable of the rich man and lazarus...you talk of lazarus but u forget he aint the only person christ raised from the dead..example..jarius daughter, the widow's son...christ was moved to tears when he saw the sorrow of the sisters of lazarus that's why he rose lazarus...so please try getting facts before you twist the scripture and confuse people.
     
         

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    Re: Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

    I agree with you,
    Lazarus (joke: Edo Lazarus ;-) ) was dead for 4 days yet when he was brought back, he didn't narrate any story or show any signs that he was either enjoying in heaven or suffering in hell.
     
         

  23. #123
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    Re: Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandaime hokage View Post
    First and foremost Heaven and hell is real....u talk of christ raising lazarus from the dead and twisted that scripture to your belief...if you read the bible well..during the baptism of christ..the heavens opend...during his transfiguration..the heavens opend...do not forget the parable of the rich man and lazarus...you talk of lazarus but u forget he aint the only person christ raised from the dead..example..jarius daughter, the widow's son...christ was moved to tears when he saw the sorrow of the sisters of lazarus that's why he rose lazarus...so please try getting facts before you twist the scripture and confuse people.
    No doubt heaven is real. but hell ... it's a complicated issue. some people would be thrown into the lake of fire, and thereafter, burn to death/ashes.
    Heaven is coming to earth in the person of Jesus Christ. meaning, nobody goes to heaven at death.

    BTW how come you have just 2 posts since 2011? few posts just like me too. :-D
     
         

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    Re: Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

    Quote Originally Posted by rikerslade View Post
    To explain why I believe there is no Afterlife, I will use a tale directly from the Bible itself: The resurrection of Lazarus.

    Lazarus was a holy man and a friend of Jesus. Now, when Lazarus died, even Jesus was in grief and was driven to tears. This caused Jesus to bring Lazarus back from the dead.

    But, think about this for a second. Lazarus was Jesus' friend. That means that Lazarus was holy enough to get into Heaven, right? But, since Heaven is the greatest place ever, why would Jesus remove him from there just to bring him back to Earth, just so he die a second time? Why would he do that to someone whom he cared so much about?

    Now, I understand that Jesus could have brought him back to ease his and others' grief. But Jesus isn't a selfish person, and this is a selfish act. Jesus also has shown that he does not use his power for personal benefit, such as when Satan tempted him.

    This is why I don't believe we go to Heaven when we die. Thoughts?

    Note: Please don't see things like Jesus and God and stuff doesn't exist. No one cares and this discussion is based on their existence. If you don't believe they exist, but still wanna discuss, then pretend they exist, pretend this is from an anime/manga.
    maybe jesus knows that he wont go to heaven. and who says that this lazarus is holy
     
         

  25. #125
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    Re: Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

    If we are to assume that God is both omnipotent and omniscient, then we also have to assume that there would be no need for any sacrifices, psychological torture, backwards laws, nor "have none of it" with hateful groups of people that is portrayed in these religious books. There's no need, if God had that power! He could have created everything the exact same way without the need for needless sacrifices (note: killing of self, killing of children, killing of babies, extinction of plants), and we would have all been hunky-dory people nonetheless. What hopskotch!
     
         

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