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  1. #126
    and if i lost the map toothpaste's Avatar
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    Re: Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

    Quote Originally Posted by Guilty as Sin View Post
    This is a question with a complicated answer. I think John is a terse theological statement about the nature of what Christians call "the Trinity".

    Briefly:

    "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

    First, the first part states that the Word existed in the beginning. In other words, this word was eternal. The second statement says that this eternal Word was with God. The interesting thing is that "with" denotes distinction. If I said I were with you, I would be implicitly saying that I am not you, I am me. The next statement becomes even more interesting: the Word was God.

    How can the Word be both with God and be God at the same time? It would be like saying I am with myself, right?

    Well, not quite. The beauty of the language is lost in the English, but marvelously displayed in Greek. In short, when it says that the Word is God, the syntax suggests a qualitative assertion. In other words, the Word is qualitatively God. He is, in essence God.

    How is he with God? The Word is with God in that he is not "the Father", he is "the Son". This is the gist of the Trinity: God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three separate persons. They are not 1 person occurring in three forms. They are distinct and unique. However, they are each have the quality or essence of God/divinity. Yet there are not three gods, there is only one. In this way, the Word is God (has the essence/quality of divinity) and is with God (is distinct in personhood from God aka the Father).

    This is what Scriptures affirm. How this "works" is a mystery to me. Some people have pointed out helpful (although imperfect examples) of H2O (liquid, solid, gas; one compound) and marriage (two people become one flesh). All I know is that this is what the Scriptures teach.

    Jesus' Godhood enables him to say what he said in John 14:7: "If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.” To know the Son is to know the Father. To see the Son is to see the Father. Why? Because the Son and the Father are "one". If it's complicated, it is only because God is God. It's even crazier to suggest that God became incarnate (in the flesh).

    But this is who Jesus is. It's exactly why the Jews tried to kill him. Because they thought he was blaspheming the name of God by identifying himself with Him. Normally, they'd be right. Normally anyone who called themselves God would be considered a nutjob. But it turns out this "Jesus" really was God. And it's not really a leap of faith; Jesus accompanied his words with deeds. He demonstrated his divinity visibly by his actions. He raised Lazarus from the dead, he walked on water, he healed the sick. God loved us even to the point of condescend himself to our fleshly nature so that he could be with us and give to us eternal life.


    the better question would be: why would this sky fairy create us in a way which allows for sin?

    christopher hitchens said it best i think. (i paraphrase)

    "in order to be christian you have to believe that for 98,000 years, our species suffered, most of our species died. high mortality rate during childbirth, there was famine, disease, natural disasters, and wars. then 2000 years later, god decided it was time to intervene. god sent himself down to have himself tortured and executed, then resurrected. god decided to intervene in the most illiterate part of the world at that time, the middle east. let's not, for example, go to the Chinese at that time who knew how to read and write and had a civilization."

    what a majestic plan from the all knowing. let's not also forget the persecution of future generations of jews because of this.

    but before we can argue any of this, we've to prove the assertion before we assume it: the assertion that there is a god and the assertion that jesus is god/son.

    until today, there is no evidence.
     
         

  2. #127
    Senior Member NinjutsuSeeker's Avatar
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    Re: Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

    Quote Originally Posted by rikerslade View Post
    To explain why I believe there is no Afterlife, I will use a tale directly from the Bible itself: The resurrection of Lazarus.

    Lazarus was a holy man and a friend of Jesus. Now, when Lazarus died, even Jesus was in grief and was driven to tears. This caused Jesus to bring Lazarus back from the dead.

    But, think about this for a second. Lazarus was Jesus' friend. That means that Lazarus was holy enough to get into Heaven, right? But, since Heaven is the greatest place ever, why would Jesus remove him from there just to bring him back to Earth, just so he die a second time? Why would he do that to someone whom he cared so much about?

    Now, I understand that Jesus could have brought him back to ease his and others' grief. But Jesus isn't a selfish person, and this is a selfish act. Jesus also has shown that he does not use his power for personal benefit, such as when Satan tempted him.

    This is why I don't believe we go to Heaven when we die. Thoughts?

    Note: Please don't see things like Jesus and God and stuff doesn't exist. No one cares and this discussion is based on their existence. If you don't believe they exist, but still wanna discuss, then pretend they exist, pretend this is from an anime/manga.
    Well or one thing, you are right, you do not die then magically go someplace in the sky called heaven. But what I can say is heaven and hell does exist. but it exist while you are alive. Think about it, your life can either be good( heaven ) or bad ( hell ), Do you see what I mean? God didn put us on this earth so that we can look forward to death, no, we are to do good now, so we can live a life of heaven, or we can choose to be disobedient and live a life of hell.
     
         

  3. #128
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    Re: Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

    wow since when did people on an anime site talk about religion so much...
     
         

  4. #129
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    Re: Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

    Quote Originally Posted by Kage Jake View Post
    God abandoned us a long time ago. We dont even care for each other, we're a "failed creation".
    God does not fail
     
         

  5. #130
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    Re: Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

    I am Muslim and believe there is an afterlife with paradise and hell. Islam is the only religion that makes sense. Although the Original Torah and Original Bible were books sent by God, the current versions are full of fabricated stories. In the Qur'an there are lots of scientific miracles which explains the way the universe works. go here http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_index.html and check it out
     
         

  6. #131
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    Re: Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

    Quote Originally Posted by Kages View Post
    But many don't believe words in the Bible, Christianity isn't the only religion.
    I am one of them, the bible was translated many times and without a doubt there were things that couldn't be translated directly, so its open to say that some parts were written to turn things to suit human needs.

    Another reason why i don't believe in the bible is because its totally open to interpretation! Everyone that reads it will have a different idea of what happened!
     
         

  7. #132
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    Re: Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

    The bible was written and translated so many different times that it's difficult to really appreciate it's credibility. Plus if you do your research it mimics so many later texts before it, like almost exactly. Whether it's exact procedures and dates or even the stories
     
         

  8. #133
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    Re: Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

    I think the answer is pretty clear, there's no heaven for us. Only resurrection at least that's what I understood when reading the bible especially revelation.
     
         

  9. #134
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    Re: Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

    Quote Originally Posted by toothpaste View Post

    the better question would be: why would this sky fairy create us in a way which allows for sin?

    christopher hitchens said it best i think. (i paraphrase)

    "in order to be christian you have to believe that for 98,000 years, our species suffered, most of our species died. high mortality rate during childbirth, there was famine, disease, natural disasters, and wars. then 2000 years later, god decided it was time to intervene. god sent himself down to have himself tortured and executed, then resurrected. god decided to intervene in the most illiterate part of the world at that time, the middle east. let's not, for example, go to the Chinese at that time who knew how to read and write and had a civilization."

    what a majestic plan from the all knowing. let's not also forget the persecution of future generations of jews because of this.

    but before we can argue any of this, we've to prove the assertion before we assume it: the assertion that there is a god and the assertion that jesus is god/son.

    until today, there is no evidence.
    That is a loaded question, considering that it assumes that God was logistically able to create human beings who could not sin.

    The better question would therefore be, "Could God have created humans who could not sin?"

    That is a more philosophical question which I'm sure better men than I have responded to. In my opinion, I don't think God could have. Now, this might lead one to say, "then God is not omnipotent", but this is hardly what omnipotence means. The idea that one can do ANYTHING is inherently self-contradictory: For example, God's holiness demands that he never sin. Sin is contrary to his nature; God cannot sin. Does that mean he is not omnipotent? Hardly.

    Rather, omnipotence simply means that God can do whatever he wants. If he wills X, he could do X. Consequently, because God is holy, he could not will sin. He therefore cannot commit sin, because he is God.

    Now, are perfect moral beings something that God could create? Is that logically feasible? Maybe. I'd like to argue it's not. I think that "holiness", "morality", etc., are things that humans develop. Notice that Jesus died on the cross only after his baptism and ministry. He didn't die as an infant, or a child, or a teenager, or even a young man. He died after he proved through his deeds that he was the Son of God. He was exalted only after the cross. To put it simply, Jesus earned his title Son of God by what he did.

    Romans 1:3 says, "concerning his Son, who was decended from David according to the flesh and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead. Note that Jesus was already the "Son of God" ontologically speaking; this is referring to his exaltation to the throne at the "right hand of God". Hence, Son of God "in power".

    That's all I'll say about that. Again, this is a question for God, not really for people. Hence the philosophical nature of it. I don't presume to understand how God works, but I do try my best to understand what I can and exercise humility and faith when I don't.

    *****

    Now onto that Christopher Hitchen quote.

    He's quite wrong about the time of God's intervention. God did not intervene "2000 years later". He intervened at the very beginning. In fact, the entire Bible, from Genesis to Revelations, is a movement of God's plan of salvation for humanity. Check out Genesis 3:15, which has been called the primitive gospel: "I will put enmity between you (Satan) and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring (singular; i.e. the referent is to Jesus Christ), he (Jesus) shall bruise your (Satan) head, and you shall bruise his heel (this referring ultimately to Jesus' death on the Cross by which he defeated sin and Satan).

    God's plan didn't not begin in 3 B.C. at Christ's birth "2000 years later". It didn't even begin in Genesis after the fall. God is, after all, omniscient.

    That last part of that quote is pretty stupid. The gospel began in the middle east. More importantly, after the conquering of Ceasar which led to the Hellenization of many Jews, it would only make sense that Christianity begin in one of the largest empires; the Roman empire. This eventually spread to Europe and birthed the Roman Catholic Church. And then to North and South America. I'm sure you know your history regarding the movement to what as to become America in pursuit of religious freedom? I think, in retrospect, middle east was a pretty good idea: now Christianity is a global religion. That "critique", if it could even be called one, is entirely irrelevant. The gospel spread, and that's what matters.

    Now, I want to very briefly answer your last statement about evidence, assertions, etc. I could go into more philosophical arguments (like the cosmological argument; all things needing a cause, etc.). You can always look that up yourself. I want to say this: there is evidence. No, I'm not talking about spiritual evidence, although I do think that the lives of other people are a wonderful testimony to the transforming power of the Holy Spirit.

    I'm talking about the Bible. Have you noticed? How else can I know that God created Adam and Eve? How else would I know that Jesus Christ died for our sins if it were not for the recorded evidence that is called Scriptures.

    Now, before you roll your eyes, I acknowledge that to you, it can hardly be called good evidence. How do we know this wasn't just made up by some guys, right? I'll let the scholars and archeologists who unearth manuscripts, etc., deal with that.

    Here's my point though: there is evidence. Even if you consider it to be unreliable. The burden of proof is on Christians, and we have it in the Holy Scriptures: God's revelation of himself to us. If you don't like it, all well and good. That is your prerogative. But don't say that there isn't evidence, because it's staring you right in the face.
     
         

  10. #135
    King of Tea and Biscuits Captain Jimjam's Avatar
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    Re: Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

    Quote Originally Posted by Kages View Post
    You're **

    Anyway, Chirstianity isn't the only religion. I am not a Christian, but I guess it was her opinion that it's not the best.
    Ehr... whut. It's your actually. You're is 'you are'. You are opinion. I doubt he's opinion.
     
         

  11. #136
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    Re: Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

    I am not a Christian myself, but I learned of this when I was in school.

    According to my teacher (he's a prick), Lazarus died before Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice. It was until after the Jesus' sacrifice that everyone was promised heaven. And since Lazarus was already dead, he resurrected him, in fear that he might have gone to hell.
     
         

  12. #137
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    Re: Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkbootexxx View Post
    Sadly my freind there is heaven and based of what you did in your life if you did good and prayed for god then you will go to heaven but if you did bad in Real life sadly you will go to hell.
    You know, you aren't considering what the OP said. It's a conundrum.

    The entire heaven and hell thing, I am pretty sure God forgives all, unless he does things like the Egyptians with the Feather of Truth.
     
         

  13. #138
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    Re: Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

    Quote Originally Posted by noni1997 View Post
    wow since when did people on an anime site talk about religion so much...
    It's not strictly for "anime". This is a forum that has a multitude of sections where you can discuss a variety of topics.
     
         

  14. #139
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    Re: Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

    Jesus also apparently Edo Tensei'd Moses and Elijah but then released them. Lazarus was a full Rinnei Tensei
     
         
    Last edited by Gyakusetsu; 01-31-2013 at 06:59 PM.

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    Re: Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of the Kings View Post
    Did you read the Bible? Human was allowed to go to Heaven when Jesus sacrificed himself to save the world.He resurrected Lazarus because he was afraid that he is going straight to hell,Jesus didn't die at that time
    this before Jesus died on the cross no one went to heaven in the bible it says they go to paradise and and he comes back they will got to heaven with every body that has lived and believe in him will go to
     
         

  16. #141
    Member Sasuke082594's Avatar
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    Re: Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of the Kings View Post
    Did you read the Bible? Human was allowed to go to Heaven when Jesus sacrificed himself to save the world.He resurrected Lazarus because he was afraid that he is going straight to hell,Jesus didn't die at that time
    This
     
         

  17. #142
    I Torture Death with Love UnrealSoul's Avatar
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    Re: Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

    Quote Originally Posted by rikerslade View Post
    To explain why I believe there is no Afterlife, I will use a tale directly from the Bible itself: The resurrection of Lazarus.

    Lazarus was a holy man and a friend of Jesus. Now, when Lazarus died, even Jesus was in grief and was driven to tears. This caused Jesus to bring Lazarus back from the dead.

    But, think about this for a second. Lazarus was Jesus' friend. That means that Lazarus was holy enough to get into Heaven, right? But, since Heaven is the greatest place ever, why would Jesus remove him from there just to bring him back to Earth, just so he die a second time? Why would he do that to someone whom he cared so much about?

    Now, I understand that Jesus could have brought him back to ease his and others' grief. But Jesus isn't a selfish person, and this is a selfish act. Jesus also has shown that he does not use his power for personal benefit, such as when Satan tempted him.

    This is why I don't believe we go to Heaven when we die. Thoughts?

    Note: Please don't see things like Jesus and God and stuff doesn't exist. No one cares and this discussion is based on their existence. If you don't believe they exist, but still wanna discuss, then pretend they exist, pretend this is from an anime/manga.

    Good points, Have you ever heard from people that died and said they went to heaven but God sent them back to earth?

    Could it be that when jesus "wanted"(Like attempting to bring Lazzy back lol) to bring him back that God aloud him to because Lazarus still served a purpose?

    I hope their is a heaven...because earth is fcking hell with cold and warm happy places.


    Edit: Oh poop seems like i'm wrong based on the other posts I read.
     
         

  18. #143
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    Re: Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

    Agh! you guys have it all wrong! The reason why Jesus was crying is because he was ashamed of the non belief in his people.

    The first passage, John 11:1-45, concerns the death and resurrection of Lazarus, brother of Mary and Martha and a friend of our Lord. Jesus wept (John 11:35) when He gathered with the sisters and others mourning Lazarus' death. Jesus did not weep over the death itself since He knew Lazarus would soon be raised and ultimately spend eternity with Him in heaven. Yet He could not help but weep when confronted with the wailing and sobbing of Mary, Martha, and the other mourners (John 11:33). The original language indicates that our Lord wept 'silent tears' or tears of compassion for His friends (Romans 12:15).
     
         

  19. #144
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    Re: Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

    Why are we bringing up religion that's what I'd like to know?
     
         

  20. #145
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    Re: Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

    Why start a thread and then make retarded stipulations against those with opposing views and tell them what they can or can't say? That's not an intelligent debate you just want to entertain your deluded way of thinking; imagine if an athiest made a thread saying that there was no god then wrote something like note: down right you believe in god because no one cares blah blah blah...
    How then can you have an intelligent and balanced discussion if everyone has to jump through your BS hoops

    Ask yourself this, if ressurection was so uncommon why then did NO ONE write about it before the third century? Why are all of the books of the bible written at least a hundred fifty years after jesus's crucifixion? When he rose from the grave the bible states that 5000 others rose from their graves and walked the streets of jerusalem...... Ummm.... why did n one outside of their sect write about it? Why was it not the talk of the town (I mean a zombie apocalypse couldn't be kept quite that's simply impossible). Think people before you blindly follow plagiarized myths and legends, otay?

    Now OT: No according to your bible you wouldn't go to heaven because revelation's talks about a new heaven and earth and men will dwell upon that earth not in heaven that is a perversion of the original gnostic teachings committed by the catholic church. How can you call yourself a believer and not know the history or words of your religion? Someone needs to go back to sunday school if you ask me. Have a good day!
     
         

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    Re: Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

    Quote Originally Posted by Kages View Post
    You're **

    Anyway, Chirstianity isn't the only religion. I am not a Christian, but I guess it was her opinion that it's not the best.
    Your*
     
         

  22. #147
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    Re: Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

    Nah.It's even easier.You know what gravity is?
     
         

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