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  1. #21
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    Re: Establishing Why K11 > Tsunade

    Mitotic regeneration makes the big difference,so I disagree.Taijutsu users can't do a thing against her.I think they have a small chance due to Shikamaru.
     
         

  2. #22
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    Re: Establishing Why K11 > Tsunade

    K11 wins. Shikamaru traps her with the help of his teammates, then they all hit her with their best moves like two headed wolf gatsuuga, sakura punch, neji 128 palms, hinata lion fist, chouji bufferfly mode meat tank, Lee primary lotus. Owned. Over.
     
         

  3. #23
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    Re: Establishing Why K11 > Tsunade

    disagree but nice effort,
     
         

  4. #24
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    Re: Establishing Why K11 > Tsunade

    Lmao everybody that disagrees can't even think of a possible counter to back up their biased opinion. :rofl:

    OT: Nice thread man, I completely agree.
     
         

  5. #25
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    Re: Establishing Why K11 > Tsunade

    Quote Originally Posted by Forbidden Technique View Post
    Lmao everybody that disagrees can't even think of a possible counter to back up their biased opinion. :rofl:

    OT: Nice thread man, I completely agree.
    While I do believe that they have a good shot. I can also see Tsunade being victorious often. But for the sake of external time constraints I will not explain why.
     
         

  6. #26
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    Re: Establishing Why K11 > Tsunade

    Really? All the Tsunade fans come up in here and say she wins without a deabte?
     
         

  7. #27
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    Re: Establishing Why K11 > Tsunade

    Quote Originally Posted by DemonicAvenger View Post
    Really? All the Tsunade fans come up in here and say she wins without a deabte?
    There was a thread about this and I explained why she can win. I'm not going to repeat myself.
     
         

  8. #28
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    Re: Establishing Why K11 > Tsunade

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug Princess Tsunade View Post
    There was a thread about this and I explained why she can win. I'm not going to repeat myself.
    The whole reason I made this thread was to essentially create the final battlefield for this disscusion. Copy paste your arguments if you have to, although i probably already covered them.
     
         

  9. #29
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    Re: Establishing Why K11 > Tsunade

    Ive even mentioned how Neji himself could solo tsunade without Katsuya. Adding in 10 more people, especially one who could take on a summon, would be overkill for her.
     
         

  10. #30
    The Demon of NB DemonicAvenger's Avatar
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    Re: Establishing Why K11 > Tsunade

    Quote Originally Posted by fastrthnwind View Post
    Ive even mentioned how Neji himself could solo tsunade without Katsuya. Adding in 10 more people, especially one who could take on a summon, would be overkill for her.
    But she was "old and rusty" lol

    Honestly a Kabuto who himself mention that he was horrible at Taijutsu trashed her, and since then she hasn't shown any feats that put her at the level people hype her. Nor can she compete with Neji in Taijutsu match, especially when his style of Taijutsu is only topped by Uchiha's Sharin-Taijutsu and Jinchuriki's anti-gentle fist abilties mixed with Taijutsu (healing and Chakra strong enough to force open the tenketsu)
     
         

  11. #31
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    Re: Establishing Why K11 > Tsunade

    Quote Originally Posted by DemonicAvenger View Post
    But she was "old and rusty" lol

    Honestly a Kabuto who himself mention that he was horrible at Taijutsu trashed her, and since then she hasn't shown any feats that put her at the level people hype her. Nor can she compete with Neji in Taijutsu match, especially when his style of Taijutsu is only topped by Uchiha's Sharin-Taijutsu and Jinchuriki's anti-gentle fist abilties mixed with Taijutsu (healing and Chakra strong enough to force open the tenketsu)
    Thats one of their biggest arguements against Neji actually. That and they say she could still heal with Byakugou against the gentle fist :sy:

    Even uchiha sharing-taijutsu would be of little effect against some as skilled as neji in taijutsu, who boasts the second fastest handspeeds in the manga besides guy using morning peacock.
     
         

  12. #32
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    Re: Establishing Why K11 > Tsunade

    Quote Originally Posted by fastrthnwind View Post
    Thats one of their biggest arguements against Neji actually. That and they say she could still heal with Byakugou against the gentle fist :sy:

    Even uchiha sharing-taijutsu would be of little effect against some as skilled as neji in taijutsu, who boasts the second fastest handspeeds in the manga besides guy using morning peacock.
    Generally it would heal, but even Tsunade herself says it takes an enourmous amount of chakra to heal organs like that (she even failed at healing dan's kidney's lol)

    Or Neji just seals the Tenketsu around Tsunade's forehead effectively sealing off Byakugo and Genisis: Rebirth.

    It all depends on the person, Itachi would trash Neji in a Taijustu battle (but Itachi arguably has the best Taijutsu skill in the manga) and when im talking about Sharin-Taijutsu, i mean the genral sense. Sharingan Pre-cog would be able to keep up with Gentle fist and counter there strikes pretty effectively. While they do lack the one hit Kill ability that Gentle fist has. (a lower form of 0tk Naruto went head to head with CE Neji, but a higher form of 0tk Naruto got Trashed by 3 Tomoe Sasuke)
     
         

  13. #33
    Fastr than You fastrthnwind's Avatar
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    Re: Establishing Why K11 > Tsunade

    Quote Originally Posted by DemonicAvenger View Post
    Generally it would heal, but even Tsunade herself says it takes an enourmous amount of chakra to heal organs like that (she even failed at healing dan's kidney's lol)

    Or Neji just seals the Tenketsu around Tsunade's forehead effectively sealing off Byakugo and Genisis: Rebirth.

    It all depends on the person, Itachi would trash Neji in a Taijustu battle (but Itachi arguably has the best Taijutsu skill in the manga) and when im talking about Sharin-Taijutsu, i mean the genral sense. Sharingan Pre-cog would be able to keep up with Gentle fist and counter there strikes pretty effectively. While they do lack the one hit Kill ability that Gentle fist has. (a lower form of 0tk Naruto went head to head with CE Neji, but a higher form of 0tk Naruto got Trashed by 3 Tomoe Sasuke)
    I wont say that Itachi will trash a hyuuga taijutsu prodigy in a taijutsu bout just because of sharingan precog. He's good in taijutsu and he's a bit faster, but Neji overall has greater experience with taijutsu and has faster handspeeds, plus his advanced taijutsu such as kaiten and vacuum palm would definitely keep itachi at bay.

    neji vs 0tk naruto wasnt really even much of a taijutsu battle as more of a long range kunai fight, with a final clash in the end. Neji was keeping up perfectly with Narutos movements, he was just surprised that Naruto had gotten much faster. After all he trains with the fastest in konoha. (Gai/Lee)

    Sasuke 3 tomoe vs 0tk was more close range and even then, Naruto was only using very crude chakra enhanced taijutsu that could be countered easily if one could visually keep up with him, which would be very hard for a person not trained in taijutsu or without a doujutsu could do.

    Neji has more and greater reaction feats based off of his own reflexes and general fighting prowes in comparison to most sharingan users who rely heavily on their sharingan to predict and avoid attacks.
     
         

  14. #34
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    Re: Establishing Why K11 > Tsunade

    Quote Originally Posted by fastrthnwind View Post
    I wont say that Itachi will trash a hyuuga taijutsu prodigy in a taijutsu bout just because of sharingan precog. He's good in taijutsu and he's a bit faster, but Neji overall has greater experience with taijutsu and has faster handspeeds, plus his advanced taijutsu such as kaiten and vacuum palm would definitely keep itachi at bay.

    neji vs 0tk naruto wasnt really even much of a taijutsu battle as more of a long range kunai fight, with a final clash in the end. Neji was keeping up perfectly with Narutos movements, he was just surprised that Naruto had gotten much faster. After all he trains with the fastest in konoha. (Gai/Lee)

    Sasuke 3 tomoe vs 0tk was more close range and even then, Naruto was only using very crude chakra enhanced taijutsu that could be countered easily if one could visually keep up with him, which would be very hard for a person not trained in taijutsu or without a doujutsu could do.

    Neji has more and greater reaction feats based off of his own reflexes and general fighting prowes in comparison to most sharingan users who rely heavily on their sharingan to predict and avoid attacks.
    I meant in terms of skill and ability xD obviously match-up would change who he can beat CQC. Faster handspeeds? Noooo, Itachi's were nigh instant. Sharingan user's couldn't even register his handseals. (although i stil think Itachi or Sasuke would beat Neji in a Taijutsu bought)

    But Naruto was confident that he could go head to head with him even going as far as mocking him, and Neji didn't deny that. He wasn't just surprised, his face was pracitcally terrified after trading blows a few times (maybe in part to how Naruto's chakra looked like a demon).

    May have to re-read, the Anime might be messing with my head, but at the very least I know that Naruto in 0tk was much faster than Neji and he couldn't even touch Sauce.

    Im gonna have to disagree here. I think Hyuuga have the best complex Reactions (multi-angulared) while Uchiha's have better Linear Reactions (whats in front of them)

    All in all they're both good, but at diffrent things. Sharingan is better for fighting one or 2 people that are extremely skilled, while Byakugan is better at taking on many (dozens) of Medium level oppenants. Its just happens to be my opion that that Sharingan is better.
     
         
    Last edited by DemonicAvenger; 02-02-2013 at 10:00 PM.

  15. #35
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    Re: Establishing Why K11 > Tsunade

    Quote Originally Posted by DemonicAvenger View Post
    I meant in terms of skill and ability xD obviously match-up would change who he can beat CQC. Faster handspeeds? Noooo, Itachi's were nigh instant. Sharingan user's couldn't even register his handseals. (although i stil think Itachi or Sasuke would beat Neji in a Taijutsu bought)

    But Naruto was confident that he could go head to head with him even going as far as mocking him, and Neji didn't deny that. He wasn't just surprised, his face was pracitcally terrified after trading blows a few times (maybe in part to how Naruto's chakra looked like a demon).

    May have to re-read, the Anime might be messing with my head, but at the very least I know that Naruto in 0tk was much faster than Neji and he couldn't even touch Sauce.

    Im gonna have to disagree here. I think Hyuuga have the best complex Reactions (multi-angulared) while Uchiha's have better Linear Reactions (whats in front of them)

    All in all they're both good, but at diffrent things. Sharingan is better for fighting one or 2 people that are extremely skilled, while Byakugan is better at taking on many (dozens) of Medium level oppenants. Its just happens to be my opion that that Sharingan is better.
    Even in terms of skill and ability, Neji still surpasses Itachi in taijutsu, being a taijutsu prodigy of the gentle fist style taijutsu.(god im saying taijutsu multiple times in every sentence ) Itachi has faster handseals, not handspeeds, which is his ability to attack rapidly with his hands, something that Neji is capable of doing, being able to perform 64 palms very quickly.

    Naurto was trying to bluff Neji since he knows that he is superior in taijutsu, but was playing cocky since he had this chakra cloak that allowed him to move faster than beforeand fooled Neji into thinking that he wouldnt charge in yet he did so anyways , catching Neji off guard and forcing him to resort to Kaiten at the last second because of Naruto's speed. Their speed was depicted to be roughly even in the end of that match because before, Neji was literally blitzing Naruto and all of his shadow clones effortlessly, but when Naruto had the cloak, Neji was able to physically keep up with him.

    How is it that a person who can avoid things from several angles at once cant avoid a linear attack? It doesnt makes much sense in that respect.
    Uchihas are better able to see attacks coming in clear focus and predict where they will land, allowing the uchihas time to react before it actually hits them.

    Hyuugas can see in all directions and train themselves to react to anything that comes within that field of vision. They have a limited ability to predict attacks based on the opponents chakra network and chakra flow so that they know what to look for when avoiding the attack.

    As you said, they are both good at different things, and my preference would happen to be the Byakugan.
     
         
    Last edited by fastrthnwind; 02-02-2013 at 10:33 PM.

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    Re: Establishing Why K11 > Tsunade

    The K11 Trashes Tsunade
     
         

  17. #37
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    Re: Establishing Why K11 > Tsunade

    i argued this a while back(minus sai) preety much said the same thing i said.
     
         

  18. #38
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    Re: Establishing Why K11 > Tsunade

    Quote Originally Posted by Forbidden Technique View Post
    Lmao everybody that disagrees can't even think of a possible counter to back up their biased opinion. :rofl:

    OT: Nice thread man, I completely agree.
    I rest my case.
     
         

  19. #39
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    Re: Establishing Why K11 > Tsunade

    Quote Originally Posted by fastrthnwind View Post
    Even in terms of skill and ability, Neji still surpasses Itachi in taijutsu, being a taijutsu prodigy of the gentle fist style taijutsu.(god im saying taijutsu multiple times in every sentence ) Itachi has faster handseals, not handspeeds, which is his ability to attack rapidly with his hands, something that Neji is capable of doing, being able to perform 64 palms very quickly.

    Naurto was trying to bluff Neji since he knows that he is superior in taijutsu, but was playing cocky since he had this chakra cloak that allowed him to move faster than beforeand fooled Neji into thinking that he wouldnt charge in yet he did so anyways , catching Neji off guard and forcing him to resort to Kaiten at the last second because of Naruto's speed. Their speed was depicted to be roughly even in the end of that match because before, Neji was literally blitzing Naruto and all of his shadow clones effortlessly, but when Naruto had the cloak, Neji was able to physically keep up with him.

    How is it that a person who can avoid things from several angles at once cant avoid a linear attack? It doesnt makes much sense in that respect.
    Uchihas are better able to see attacks coming in clear focus and predict where they will land, allowing the uchihas time to react before it actually hits them.

    Hyuugas can see in all directions and train themselves to react to anything that comes within that field of vision. They have a limited ability to predict attacks based on the opponents chakra network and chakra flow so that they know what to look for when avoiding the attack.

    As you said, they are both good at different things, and my preference would happen to be the Byakugan.
    Itachi was trashing Sasuke in Taijutsu while he was sick and holding back. There is really no one that is as skilled in Taijutsu as Itachi. (I know from our messages your tired of the Itachi wank, and I agree, but I cant let his abilities be overlooked either)

    Handseal speed and Hand speed are one in the same. If he can make multiple complex handseals before a Sharingan can even register it then Punches are no biggie.

    It wasn't just a bluff. Even Neji was in marvel at Naruto's hand to hand ability after he got the powerup. their speed was roughly the same, but their strength were on two diffrent levels. Naruto tied Kaiten with Mearly a punch. Neji may have been more "Skilled" but that just goes to show how far Power and Speed can go.

    (the bit about the Naruto and his Bunshin also backs up my argument about Sharingan v Byakugan. Sharingan is far superior when it comes to battling one or two very powerful oppenants, while the Byakugan is better at dealing with multiple weaker oppenants)

    Thats basically what I meant. Uchihas can defent from a much faster attack when its right in front of them, something on the level that a hyuuga wouldn't. But a Hyuuga can defend from mutliple angles at a level an Uchiha can't.

    Sharingan and Byakugan are very similar in terms of eye prowress (excluding MS) simply because Gentle fist isn't exactly part of Byakugans abilities. its something they developed to maximize their use of Byakugan. The same way that Uchiha's learned to copy Ninjutsu, use Sharingan for Genjutsu, and be really haxxed in Taijutsu to maximize their use of Sharingan.

    But I guess we can agree to disagree here.
     
         

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    Re: Establishing Why K11 > Tsunade

    Quote Originally Posted by DemonicAvenger View Post
    First and foremost, no fanon will be taken into account on this thread. Statements like "Shes a Sanin! no way a bunch of Chunin/Jonin can do anything to her!" will be ignored.
    --------------------



    Composition of the K11 in this thread:

    Sakura, Kiba, Shino, Hinata, Ino, Shikamaru, Choji, Neji, Lee, Ten-Ten, Sai

    Conditions:

    Everyone is fully rested and healthy. Mindset is Bloodlusted but calm and fight in character.

    Intel:

    Full

    Location:

    Atop the Hokage Mansion

    Distance:

    Tsunade starts at the railing facing the cluster of the the K11 that stands in the middle of the ring. The combatants are allowed to move about the entire village as they please without worry of damage to the buildings. Civilians have been evacuated.


    -----------------------


    Explanation:

    Now, Im going to be doing this a bit diffrently than before in my other threads. Since they're so many combatants this time and Range isn't something that accounted for since its a group effort. I'll be more or less showing how the K11 will take this and cover as much ground on Tsunade's abilities as possible and how they counter them.


    In this fight Neji, Kiba, and Lee will be the main offensive against Tsunade. Choji will be the main Deterant of Katsuya if she is summoned, otherwise Choji will also be fighting Tsunade. The other ninja's have their roles to play, Sakura will be there for healing, Shikamaru will be looking for an opening to land Kagemane, Ten-Ten will be constantly harrasing Tusnade with Kunai and ninja tools to coax a mistake out of her, Shino will play a double role in using countless insects to feed on her chakra and also poison her with poisones insect which in turn will also burn through her chakra faster to remove the poison and also allow the others to attack her. Ino will be playing piggyback off of Shikamaru's Justu and be wainting for him to land Kagemane to combo into ****enshin. Ino could also provide basic medical treatment if Sakura is tied up.

    Lastly, Sai plays a crucial role here. He also plays back up like other ninja's to constantly force Tsunade to tank attacks and heal, but he brings to the table one feat of speed that Tsunade cannot counter.

    I will now go into each individuals jobs in this battle and go more in-depth than above.

    ----------------------------------------------

    Sakura:In a word, Healing. She will be there to to heal any possible injuries that will be inflicted upon her team. If the chance arrives, she can use her own Chakra enhanced Strength to land a blow on Tsunade. Harrasment with exploding tags is also a possibility. Also, her extensive training with Tsunade gives her a leg up on dodging Tsuande's attacks. During training, Tsunade even said she wasn't holding back when it came to landing a blow. She will be familiar with the way Tsunade moves when she wants to attack a certain way, so she can warn the others to jump if HKoP is on the way, or if Tsunade is going to try shattering the ground.

    Kiba:One of the Frontline fighters in this battle. Gatsuuga and Tsuuga will his main tools in attacking Tsunade. This will go unabided due to the constant other danger's she'll have to deal with from the other Ninja's. Kiba's main job is to keep landing blows on Tsunade so she has to keep burning chakra to heal. Garoga would be will be used whenever needed and will burn more of Tsunade's Chakra than the normal Tsuugas.

    Shino:Shino plays but one role in this battle, and that is to keep Tsunade under a hail of insects. These insects will force her to burn yet even more chakra than the massive amount she is going to need to keep healing. His secondary objective is to use poisonous insects to ail her. She will have to extract these poison's herself which wont be possible while constantly fighting off Neji, Kiba, and Lee and all the harrasment of other attacks.

    Hinata: Hinata plays an odd role in this battle. She lacks the physical capabilities of going hand to hand with Tsunade like some of the others, but it is her only way of fighting. So, in this battle her main objective is the keep back far enough that she isn't engagin Tsunade, but close enough that she can jump in and attack when needed. She can also harrass Tsunade with Air Palm or combo this with Neji's Air Palm to create a stronger single strike. When she jumps in, it must be when she is absolutely sure that she is guarenteed hit and she must target vital organs to ensure that Tsunade burns as much Chakra as possible from healing this wound.

    Ino:Ino's main role will be basic medical attention, but her main offensive measure against Tsunade is ****enshin. She wont have to worry much about when to land it, since Shikamaru essentially will do that for her. If Ino See's that Shikamaru has landed Kagemane, she will launch ****enshin and posses her. She from there will give the rest of the team to attack. (Choji's Butterly Bomb is a good choice)

    Shikamaru:Strategy is Shikmaru's main role in this battle. He will be in the rear looking for a chance to land Kagemane (easily accomplishable since she will be distracted with the myriad of other things) This reprieve from the actual fight will allow Shikamaru to formulate a plan unhindered (although its likely it wont be needed). Basic exploding tags could also be used as a deterant.

    Choji:Summon control is Choji's part to play in this fight. If Tsunade manages to release Katsuya (not a guarenteed) then Choji will be the one to deal with her until the Coup de' grace will landed on Tsunade. His butterfly bomb is in turn, the perfect blow to end Tsunade. Largely due to Tsunade's body not being able to funtion if her brain is destroyed, in turn making Byakugo useless.

    Neji:Neji along with Lee, are the only one's that will be trading blows in the traditional fashion with Tsunade. His main role is to shut down her chakra points, essentailly shutting down her ability to heal even with byakugo. Secondary objective is to attack vital organs to wittle her chakra down even further.

    Neji more than anyone else in the K11, is able to go hand to hand with Tsunade. With the Byakugan he can see her chakra and will give him a heads up when he see's her focusing chakra in her palm or foot. Tsunade's Straightforward fighting style will also be a major downfall when combined with her gap in speed compared to Neji. Allowing him easy openings to land blows on the tenketsu or vital organs.

    Lee: Lee in base's objective is little more than to keep her attention even further seperated to allow for the myriad of other jutsu's to land. When he see's her slowing down and getting tired, He will activate Gates and land his ownly meaningfull way to harm her in Ura Renge. Ura Renge is also meant just to wittle down her stamina.

    Ten-Ten: Ten-Ten has one role and that is to constantly keep the ninja tools coming to, like others, wittle down her chakra and keep her distracted so other attacks can land that have the same purpose.


    Sai:Sai as said earlier in the OP plays a key role. His paintings are just another form of harrasement, but he has one thing that can set up an unavoidable opening for others with his attack that in any circumstance is also unavoidable by any means.

    The two scans below show one of Sai's Blitze's on Ninja far faster than Tsunade. The Ninja's in question, one of which was able to dodge multiple Hebi Sasuke blitzes, was absolutely blitzed in every fashion of the word. These two ninja's were completely incapable of even turning their heads before the attack landed, and since the attack went under these ninja, this makes this the perfect counter to HKoP
    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/518/12
    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/518/13

    --------------------------------------------------------


    All in all, The K11 have this wrapped up neatly.
    Ok so a few basic flaws. Choji isn't holding back Katsuyu. If he tries to engage in taijutsu he gets acid to the face. Meanwhile Katsuyu is immune to his physical attacks.
    Shino has never been shown using the poisonous insects, we're not sure if he's capable of a technique of that level just yet.
    Furthermore, where the idea is to take Tsunade out by working as a team Tsunade, However, fighting as a team with Katsuyu there is no reason Tsunade won't take the win. After she summons Katsuyu , she will target first Sakura as the main medic, then Ino to ensure no healing takes place. After the medics are taken out of commission, the next target Tsunade will go after is Shikamaru. Is kagemane has never been shown to hold someone of great strength and will power which is true of Tsunade. Shikamaru would be hardpressed to deal with Tsunade when she comes his way.
    Now wow this is simultaneously happening Katsuyu is holding off the other members of the k11. If a Katsuyu that has divided herself hundreds of times possibly thousands is still big enough to absorb entire adults, that a Katsuyu only divided into 21 would be enough to hold off the k11. So that would mean that each person has a Katsuyu to deal with plus Tsunade still has a katsuyu next to her at all times which means when she takes on a member from the k11 it will be them vs. 2 Large Katsuyu minis and Tsunade.
    Now under these conditions the K11 who before outnumbered Tsunade faces a large problem. In fact Ino may very well be taken out by her Katsuyu mini.
     
         

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