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  1. #26
    The Demon of NB DemonicAvenger's Avatar
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    Re: Establishing Why K11 > Tsunade

    Really? All the Tsunade fans come up in here and say she wins without a deabte?
     
         

  2. #27
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    Re: Establishing Why K11 > Tsunade

    Quote Originally Posted by DemonicAvenger View Post
    Really? All the Tsunade fans come up in here and say she wins without a deabte?
    There was a thread about this and I explained why she can win. I'm not going to repeat myself.
     
         

  3. #28
    The Demon of NB DemonicAvenger's Avatar
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    Re: Establishing Why K11 > Tsunade

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug Princess Tsunade View Post
    There was a thread about this and I explained why she can win. I'm not going to repeat myself.
    The whole reason I made this thread was to essentially create the final battlefield for this disscusion. Copy paste your arguments if you have to, although i probably already covered them.
     
         

  4. #29
    Fastr than You fastrthnwind's Avatar
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    Re: Establishing Why K11 > Tsunade

    Ive even mentioned how Neji himself could solo tsunade without Katsuya. Adding in 10 more people, especially one who could take on a summon, would be overkill for her.
     
         

  5. #30
    The Demon of NB DemonicAvenger's Avatar
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    Re: Establishing Why K11 > Tsunade

    Quote Originally Posted by fastrthnwind View Post
    Ive even mentioned how Neji himself could solo tsunade without Katsuya. Adding in 10 more people, especially one who could take on a summon, would be overkill for her.
    But she was "old and rusty" lol

    Honestly a Kabuto who himself mention that he was horrible at Taijutsu trashed her, and since then she hasn't shown any feats that put her at the level people hype her. Nor can she compete with Neji in Taijutsu match, especially when his style of Taijutsu is only topped by Uchiha's Sharin-Taijutsu and Jinchuriki's anti-gentle fist abilties mixed with Taijutsu (healing and Chakra strong enough to force open the tenketsu)
     
         

  6. #31
    Fastr than You fastrthnwind's Avatar
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    Re: Establishing Why K11 > Tsunade

    Quote Originally Posted by DemonicAvenger View Post
    But she was "old and rusty" lol

    Honestly a Kabuto who himself mention that he was horrible at Taijutsu trashed her, and since then she hasn't shown any feats that put her at the level people hype her. Nor can she compete with Neji in Taijutsu match, especially when his style of Taijutsu is only topped by Uchiha's Sharin-Taijutsu and Jinchuriki's anti-gentle fist abilties mixed with Taijutsu (healing and Chakra strong enough to force open the tenketsu)
    Thats one of their biggest arguements against Neji actually. That and they say she could still heal with Byakugou against the gentle fist :sy:

    Even uchiha sharing-taijutsu would be of little effect against some as skilled as neji in taijutsu, who boasts the second fastest handspeeds in the manga besides guy using morning peacock.
     
         

  7. #32
    The Demon of NB DemonicAvenger's Avatar
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    Re: Establishing Why K11 > Tsunade

    Quote Originally Posted by fastrthnwind View Post
    Thats one of their biggest arguements against Neji actually. That and they say she could still heal with Byakugou against the gentle fist :sy:

    Even uchiha sharing-taijutsu would be of little effect against some as skilled as neji in taijutsu, who boasts the second fastest handspeeds in the manga besides guy using morning peacock.
    Generally it would heal, but even Tsunade herself says it takes an enourmous amount of chakra to heal organs like that (she even failed at healing dan's kidney's lol)

    Or Neji just seals the Tenketsu around Tsunade's forehead effectively sealing off Byakugo and Genisis: Rebirth.

    It all depends on the person, Itachi would trash Neji in a Taijustu battle (but Itachi arguably has the best Taijutsu skill in the manga) and when im talking about Sharin-Taijutsu, i mean the genral sense. Sharingan Pre-cog would be able to keep up with Gentle fist and counter there strikes pretty effectively. While they do lack the one hit Kill ability that Gentle fist has. (a lower form of 0tk Naruto went head to head with CE Neji, but a higher form of 0tk Naruto got Trashed by 3 Tomoe Sasuke)
     
         

  8. #33
    Fastr than You fastrthnwind's Avatar
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    Re: Establishing Why K11 > Tsunade

    Quote Originally Posted by DemonicAvenger View Post
    Generally it would heal, but even Tsunade herself says it takes an enourmous amount of chakra to heal organs like that (she even failed at healing dan's kidney's lol)

    Or Neji just seals the Tenketsu around Tsunade's forehead effectively sealing off Byakugo and Genisis: Rebirth.

    It all depends on the person, Itachi would trash Neji in a Taijustu battle (but Itachi arguably has the best Taijutsu skill in the manga) and when im talking about Sharin-Taijutsu, i mean the genral sense. Sharingan Pre-cog would be able to keep up with Gentle fist and counter there strikes pretty effectively. While they do lack the one hit Kill ability that Gentle fist has. (a lower form of 0tk Naruto went head to head with CE Neji, but a higher form of 0tk Naruto got Trashed by 3 Tomoe Sasuke)
    I wont say that Itachi will trash a hyuuga taijutsu prodigy in a taijutsu bout just because of sharingan precog. He's good in taijutsu and he's a bit faster, but Neji overall has greater experience with taijutsu and has faster handspeeds, plus his advanced taijutsu such as kaiten and vacuum palm would definitely keep itachi at bay.

    neji vs 0tk naruto wasnt really even much of a taijutsu battle as more of a long range kunai fight, with a final clash in the end. Neji was keeping up perfectly with Narutos movements, he was just surprised that Naruto had gotten much faster. After all he trains with the fastest in konoha. (Gai/Lee)

    Sasuke 3 tomoe vs 0tk was more close range and even then, Naruto was only using very crude chakra enhanced taijutsu that could be countered easily if one could visually keep up with him, which would be very hard for a person not trained in taijutsu or without a doujutsu could do.

    Neji has more and greater reaction feats based off of his own reflexes and general fighting prowes in comparison to most sharingan users who rely heavily on their sharingan to predict and avoid attacks.
     
         

  9. #34
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    Re: Establishing Why K11 > Tsunade

    Quote Originally Posted by fastrthnwind View Post
    I wont say that Itachi will trash a hyuuga taijutsu prodigy in a taijutsu bout just because of sharingan precog. He's good in taijutsu and he's a bit faster, but Neji overall has greater experience with taijutsu and has faster handspeeds, plus his advanced taijutsu such as kaiten and vacuum palm would definitely keep itachi at bay.

    neji vs 0tk naruto wasnt really even much of a taijutsu battle as more of a long range kunai fight, with a final clash in the end. Neji was keeping up perfectly with Narutos movements, he was just surprised that Naruto had gotten much faster. After all he trains with the fastest in konoha. (Gai/Lee)

    Sasuke 3 tomoe vs 0tk was more close range and even then, Naruto was only using very crude chakra enhanced taijutsu that could be countered easily if one could visually keep up with him, which would be very hard for a person not trained in taijutsu or without a doujutsu could do.

    Neji has more and greater reaction feats based off of his own reflexes and general fighting prowes in comparison to most sharingan users who rely heavily on their sharingan to predict and avoid attacks.
    I meant in terms of skill and ability xD obviously match-up would change who he can beat CQC. Faster handspeeds? Noooo, Itachi's were nigh instant. Sharingan user's couldn't even register his handseals. (although i stil think Itachi or Sasuke would beat Neji in a Taijutsu bought)

    But Naruto was confident that he could go head to head with him even going as far as mocking him, and Neji didn't deny that. He wasn't just surprised, his face was pracitcally terrified after trading blows a few times (maybe in part to how Naruto's chakra looked like a demon).

    May have to re-read, the Anime might be messing with my head, but at the very least I know that Naruto in 0tk was much faster than Neji and he couldn't even touch Sauce.

    Im gonna have to disagree here. I think Hyuuga have the best complex Reactions (multi-angulared) while Uchiha's have better Linear Reactions (whats in front of them)

    All in all they're both good, but at diffrent things. Sharingan is better for fighting one or 2 people that are extremely skilled, while Byakugan is better at taking on many (dozens) of Medium level oppenants. Its just happens to be my opion that that Sharingan is better.
     
         
    Last edited by DemonicAvenger; 02-02-2013 at 09:00 PM.

  10. #35
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    Re: Establishing Why K11 > Tsunade

    Quote Originally Posted by DemonicAvenger View Post
    I meant in terms of skill and ability xD obviously match-up would change who he can beat CQC. Faster handspeeds? Noooo, Itachi's were nigh instant. Sharingan user's couldn't even register his handseals. (although i stil think Itachi or Sasuke would beat Neji in a Taijutsu bought)

    But Naruto was confident that he could go head to head with him even going as far as mocking him, and Neji didn't deny that. He wasn't just surprised, his face was pracitcally terrified after trading blows a few times (maybe in part to how Naruto's chakra looked like a demon).

    May have to re-read, the Anime might be messing with my head, but at the very least I know that Naruto in 0tk was much faster than Neji and he couldn't even touch Sauce.

    Im gonna have to disagree here. I think Hyuuga have the best complex Reactions (multi-angulared) while Uchiha's have better Linear Reactions (whats in front of them)

    All in all they're both good, but at diffrent things. Sharingan is better for fighting one or 2 people that are extremely skilled, while Byakugan is better at taking on many (dozens) of Medium level oppenants. Its just happens to be my opion that that Sharingan is better.
    Even in terms of skill and ability, Neji still surpasses Itachi in taijutsu, being a taijutsu prodigy of the gentle fist style taijutsu.(god im saying taijutsu multiple times in every sentence ) Itachi has faster handseals, not handspeeds, which is his ability to attack rapidly with his hands, something that Neji is capable of doing, being able to perform 64 palms very quickly.

    Naurto was trying to bluff Neji since he knows that he is superior in taijutsu, but was playing cocky since he had this chakra cloak that allowed him to move faster than beforeand fooled Neji into thinking that he wouldnt charge in yet he did so anyways , catching Neji off guard and forcing him to resort to Kaiten at the last second because of Naruto's speed. Their speed was depicted to be roughly even in the end of that match because before, Neji was literally blitzing Naruto and all of his shadow clones effortlessly, but when Naruto had the cloak, Neji was able to physically keep up with him.

    How is it that a person who can avoid things from several angles at once cant avoid a linear attack? It doesnt makes much sense in that respect.
    Uchihas are better able to see attacks coming in clear focus and predict where they will land, allowing the uchihas time to react before it actually hits them.

    Hyuugas can see in all directions and train themselves to react to anything that comes within that field of vision. They have a limited ability to predict attacks based on the opponents chakra network and chakra flow so that they know what to look for when avoiding the attack.

    As you said, they are both good at different things, and my preference would happen to be the Byakugan.
     
         
    Last edited by fastrthnwind; 02-02-2013 at 09:33 PM.

  11. #36
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    Re: Establishing Why K11 > Tsunade

    The K11 Trashes Tsunade
     
         

  12. #37
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    Re: Establishing Why K11 > Tsunade

    i argued this a while back(minus sai) preety much said the same thing i said.
     
         

  13. #38
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    Re: Establishing Why K11 > Tsunade

    Quote Originally Posted by Forbidden Technique View Post
    Lmao everybody that disagrees can't even think of a possible counter to back up their biased opinion. :rofl:

    OT: Nice thread man, I completely agree.
    I rest my case.
     
         

  14. #39
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    Re: Establishing Why K11 > Tsunade

    Quote Originally Posted by fastrthnwind View Post
    Even in terms of skill and ability, Neji still surpasses Itachi in taijutsu, being a taijutsu prodigy of the gentle fist style taijutsu.(god im saying taijutsu multiple times in every sentence ) Itachi has faster handseals, not handspeeds, which is his ability to attack rapidly with his hands, something that Neji is capable of doing, being able to perform 64 palms very quickly.

    Naurto was trying to bluff Neji since he knows that he is superior in taijutsu, but was playing cocky since he had this chakra cloak that allowed him to move faster than beforeand fooled Neji into thinking that he wouldnt charge in yet he did so anyways , catching Neji off guard and forcing him to resort to Kaiten at the last second because of Naruto's speed. Their speed was depicted to be roughly even in the end of that match because before, Neji was literally blitzing Naruto and all of his shadow clones effortlessly, but when Naruto had the cloak, Neji was able to physically keep up with him.

    How is it that a person who can avoid things from several angles at once cant avoid a linear attack? It doesnt makes much sense in that respect.
    Uchihas are better able to see attacks coming in clear focus and predict where they will land, allowing the uchihas time to react before it actually hits them.

    Hyuugas can see in all directions and train themselves to react to anything that comes within that field of vision. They have a limited ability to predict attacks based on the opponents chakra network and chakra flow so that they know what to look for when avoiding the attack.

    As you said, they are both good at different things, and my preference would happen to be the Byakugan.
    Itachi was trashing Sasuke in Taijutsu while he was sick and holding back. There is really no one that is as skilled in Taijutsu as Itachi. (I know from our messages your tired of the Itachi wank, and I agree, but I cant let his abilities be overlooked either)

    Handseal speed and Hand speed are one in the same. If he can make multiple complex handseals before a Sharingan can even register it then Punches are no biggie.

    It wasn't just a bluff. Even Neji was in marvel at Naruto's hand to hand ability after he got the powerup. their speed was roughly the same, but their strength were on two diffrent levels. Naruto tied Kaiten with Mearly a punch. Neji may have been more "Skilled" but that just goes to show how far Power and Speed can go.

    (the bit about the Naruto and his Bunshin also backs up my argument about Sharingan v Byakugan. Sharingan is far superior when it comes to battling one or two very powerful oppenants, while the Byakugan is better at dealing with multiple weaker oppenants)

    Thats basically what I meant. Uchihas can defent from a much faster attack when its right in front of them, something on the level that a hyuuga wouldn't. But a Hyuuga can defend from mutliple angles at a level an Uchiha can't.

    Sharingan and Byakugan are very similar in terms of eye prowress (excluding MS) simply because Gentle fist isn't exactly part of Byakugans abilities. its something they developed to maximize their use of Byakugan. The same way that Uchiha's learned to copy Ninjutsu, use Sharingan for Genjutsu, and be really haxxed in Taijutsu to maximize their use of Sharingan.

    But I guess we can agree to disagree here.
     
         

  15. #40
    Senior Member Tazzilla88's Avatar
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    Re: Establishing Why K11 > Tsunade

    Quote Originally Posted by DemonicAvenger View Post
    First and foremost, no fanon will be taken into account on this thread. Statements like "Shes a Sanin! no way a bunch of Chunin/Jonin can do anything to her!" will be ignored.
    --------------------



    Composition of the K11 in this thread:

    Sakura, Kiba, Shino, Hinata, Ino, Shikamaru, Choji, Neji, Lee, Ten-Ten, Sai

    Conditions:

    Everyone is fully rested and healthy. Mindset is Bloodlusted but calm and fight in character.

    Intel:

    Full

    Location:

    Atop the Hokage Mansion

    Distance:

    Tsunade starts at the railing facing the cluster of the the K11 that stands in the middle of the ring. The combatants are allowed to move about the entire village as they please without worry of damage to the buildings. Civilians have been evacuated.


    -----------------------


    Explanation:

    Now, Im going to be doing this a bit diffrently than before in my other threads. Since they're so many combatants this time and Range isn't something that accounted for since its a group effort. I'll be more or less showing how the K11 will take this and cover as much ground on Tsunade's abilities as possible and how they counter them.


    In this fight Neji, Kiba, and Lee will be the main offensive against Tsunade. Choji will be the main Deterant of Katsuya if she is summoned, otherwise Choji will also be fighting Tsunade. The other ninja's have their roles to play, Sakura will be there for healing, Shikamaru will be looking for an opening to land Kagemane, Ten-Ten will be constantly harrasing Tusnade with Kunai and ninja tools to coax a mistake out of her, Shino will play a double role in using countless insects to feed on her chakra and also poison her with poisones insect which in turn will also burn through her chakra faster to remove the poison and also allow the others to attack her. Ino will be playing piggyback off of Shikamaru's Justu and be wainting for him to land Kagemane to combo into ****enshin. Ino could also provide basic medical treatment if Sakura is tied up.

    Lastly, Sai plays a crucial role here. He also plays back up like other ninja's to constantly force Tsunade to tank attacks and heal, but he brings to the table one feat of speed that Tsunade cannot counter.

    I will now go into each individuals jobs in this battle and go more in-depth than above.

    ----------------------------------------------

    Sakura:In a word, Healing. She will be there to to heal any possible injuries that will be inflicted upon her team. If the chance arrives, she can use her own Chakra enhanced Strength to land a blow on Tsunade. Harrasment with exploding tags is also a possibility. Also, her extensive training with Tsunade gives her a leg up on dodging Tsuande's attacks. During training, Tsunade even said she wasn't holding back when it came to landing a blow. She will be familiar with the way Tsunade moves when she wants to attack a certain way, so she can warn the others to jump if HKoP is on the way, or if Tsunade is going to try shattering the ground.

    Kiba:One of the Frontline fighters in this battle. Gatsuuga and Tsuuga will his main tools in attacking Tsunade. This will go unabided due to the constant other danger's she'll have to deal with from the other Ninja's. Kiba's main job is to keep landing blows on Tsunade so she has to keep burning chakra to heal. Garoga would be will be used whenever needed and will burn more of Tsunade's Chakra than the normal Tsuugas.

    Shino:Shino plays but one role in this battle, and that is to keep Tsunade under a hail of insects. These insects will force her to burn yet even more chakra than the massive amount she is going to need to keep healing. His secondary objective is to use poisonous insects to ail her. She will have to extract these poison's herself which wont be possible while constantly fighting off Neji, Kiba, and Lee and all the harrasment of other attacks.

    Hinata: Hinata plays an odd role in this battle. She lacks the physical capabilities of going hand to hand with Tsunade like some of the others, but it is her only way of fighting. So, in this battle her main objective is the keep back far enough that she isn't engagin Tsunade, but close enough that she can jump in and attack when needed. She can also harrass Tsunade with Air Palm or combo this with Neji's Air Palm to create a stronger single strike. When she jumps in, it must be when she is absolutely sure that she is guarenteed hit and she must target vital organs to ensure that Tsunade burns as much Chakra as possible from healing this wound.

    Ino:Ino's main role will be basic medical attention, but her main offensive measure against Tsunade is ****enshin. She wont have to worry much about when to land it, since Shikamaru essentially will do that for her. If Ino See's that Shikamaru has landed Kagemane, she will launch ****enshin and posses her. She from there will give the rest of the team to attack. (Choji's Butterly Bomb is a good choice)

    Shikamaru:Strategy is Shikmaru's main role in this battle. He will be in the rear looking for a chance to land Kagemane (easily accomplishable since she will be distracted with the myriad of other things) This reprieve from the actual fight will allow Shikamaru to formulate a plan unhindered (although its likely it wont be needed). Basic exploding tags could also be used as a deterant.

    Choji:Summon control is Choji's part to play in this fight. If Tsunade manages to release Katsuya (not a guarenteed) then Choji will be the one to deal with her until the Coup de' grace will landed on Tsunade. His butterfly bomb is in turn, the perfect blow to end Tsunade. Largely due to Tsunade's body not being able to funtion if her brain is destroyed, in turn making Byakugo useless.

    Neji:Neji along with Lee, are the only one's that will be trading blows in the traditional fashion with Tsunade. His main role is to shut down her chakra points, essentailly shutting down her ability to heal even with byakugo. Secondary objective is to attack vital organs to wittle her chakra down even further.

    Neji more than anyone else in the K11, is able to go hand to hand with Tsunade. With the Byakugan he can see her chakra and will give him a heads up when he see's her focusing chakra in her palm or foot. Tsunade's Straightforward fighting style will also be a major downfall when combined with her gap in speed compared to Neji. Allowing him easy openings to land blows on the tenketsu or vital organs.

    Lee: Lee in base's objective is little more than to keep her attention even further seperated to allow for the myriad of other jutsu's to land. When he see's her slowing down and getting tired, He will activate Gates and land his ownly meaningfull way to harm her in Ura Renge. Ura Renge is also meant just to wittle down her stamina.

    Ten-Ten: Ten-Ten has one role and that is to constantly keep the ninja tools coming to, like others, wittle down her chakra and keep her distracted so other attacks can land that have the same purpose.


    Sai:Sai as said earlier in the OP plays a key role. His paintings are just another form of harrasement, but he has one thing that can set up an unavoidable opening for others with his attack that in any circumstance is also unavoidable by any means.

    The two scans below show one of Sai's Blitze's on Ninja far faster than Tsunade. The Ninja's in question, one of which was able to dodge multiple Hebi Sasuke blitzes, was absolutely blitzed in every fashion of the word. These two ninja's were completely incapable of even turning their heads before the attack landed, and since the attack went under these ninja, this makes this the perfect counter to HKoP
    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/518/12
    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/518/13

    --------------------------------------------------------


    All in all, The K11 have this wrapped up neatly.
    Ok so a few basic flaws. Choji isn't holding back Katsuyu. If he tries to engage in taijutsu he gets acid to the face. Meanwhile Katsuyu is immune to his physical attacks.
    Shino has never been shown using the poisonous insects, we're not sure if he's capable of a technique of that level just yet.
    Furthermore, where the idea is to take Tsunade out by working as a team Tsunade, However, fighting as a team with Katsuyu there is no reason Tsunade won't take the win. After she summons Katsuyu , she will target first Sakura as the main medic, then Ino to ensure no healing takes place. After the medics are taken out of commission, the next target Tsunade will go after is Shikamaru. Is kagemane has never been shown to hold someone of great strength and will power which is true of Tsunade. Shikamaru would be hardpressed to deal with Tsunade when she comes his way.
    Now wow this is simultaneously happening Katsuyu is holding off the other members of the k11. If a Katsuyu that has divided herself hundreds of times possibly thousands is still big enough to absorb entire adults, that a Katsuyu only divided into 21 would be enough to hold off the k11. So that would mean that each person has a Katsuyu to deal with plus Tsunade still has a katsuyu next to her at all times which means when she takes on a member from the k11 it will be them vs. 2 Large Katsuyu minis and Tsunade.
    Now under these conditions the K11 who before outnumbered Tsunade faces a large problem. In fact Ino may very well be taken out by her Katsuyu mini.
     
         

  16. #41
    The Demon of NB DemonicAvenger's Avatar
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    Re: Establishing Why K11 > Tsunade

    Quote Originally Posted by Tazzilla88 View Post
    Ok so a few basic flaws. Choji isn't holding back Katsuyu. If he tries to engage in taijutsu he gets acid to the face. Meanwhile Katsuyu is immune to his physical attacks.
    Shino has never been shown using the poisonous insects, we're not sure if he's capable of a technique of that level just yet.
    Furthermore, where the idea is to take Tsunade out by working as a team Tsunade, However, fighting as a team with Katsuyu there is no reason Tsunade won't take the win. After she summons Katsuyu , she will target first Sakura as the main medic, then Ino to ensure no healing takes place. After the medics are taken out of commission, the next target Tsunade will go after is Shikamaru. Is kagemane has never been shown to hold someone of great strength and will power which is true of Tsunade. Shikamaru would be hardpressed to deal with Tsunade when she comes his way.
    Now wow this is simultaneously happening Katsuyu is holding off the other members of the k11. If a Katsuyu that has divided herself hundreds of times possibly thousands is still big enough to absorb entire adults, that a Katsuyu only divided into 21 would be enough to hold off the k11. So that would mean that each person has a Katsuyu to deal with plus Tsunade still has a katsuyu next to her at all times which means when she takes on a member from the k11 it will be them vs. 2 Large Katsuyu minis and Tsunade.
    Now under these conditions the K11 who before outnumbered Tsunade faces a large problem. In fact Ino may very well be taken out by her Katsuyu mini.
    Choji can remove Katsuya by BFR, with Butterfly bomb or otherwise. The K11 wont allow her to summon Katsuya a second time.

    There are poisonous insect. With Shino's Jutsu he can control them. This isn't even speculation.

    So the whole rest of the team will sit by and let her attack Sakura and Ino? especially when they're in the back and Neji, Kiba, and Lee are the main offensive. Tsunade alone is barely able to keep up with Neji, much less Kiba and Lee as well, on top of Dodging Kagemane and ****enshin.


    ----

    On another note, im kinda sad how i work so hard on these threads but never get any rep :c
     
         
    Last edited by DemonicAvenger; 02-03-2013 at 05:46 PM.

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    Re: Establishing Why K11 > Tsunade

    Quote Originally Posted by DemonicAvenger View Post
    Choji can remove Katsuya by BFR, with Butterfly bomb or otherwise. The K11 wont allow her to summon Katsuya a second time.

    There are poisonous insect. With Shino's Jutsu he can control them. This isn't even speculation.

    So the whole rest of the team will sit by and let her attack Sakura and Ino? especially when they're in the back and Neji, Kiba, and Lee are the main offensive. Tsunade alone is barely able to keep up with Neji, much less Kiba and Lee as well, on top of Dodging Kagemane and ****enshin.
    There are poisonous insects, that doesn't mean Shino can control them. The ones we've seen him control are not poisonous, we've seen someone else from his clan use poisonous insects but the technique of one person in the clan doesn't mean everyone has that ability. The insects Shino controls live within his body, if he doesn't have poisonous insects he can't use poisonous insects.

    Now explain exactly how Choji removes Katsuyu. All here minis, even if he attempts defeating Katsuyu, it would be in vain. As he doesn't actually have something to hurt Katsuyu with.

    The whole team won't have much of a choice as there is a Katsuyu towering over them.
    Also I will point out that Tsunade is very capable of fast handseals. So stopping her from summoning seems a bit odd.
     
         

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    Re: Establishing Why K11 > Tsunade

    Quote Originally Posted by Tazzilla88 View Post
    There are poisonous insects, that doesn't mean Shino can control them. The ones we've seen him control are not poisonous, we've seen someone else from his clan use poisonous insects but the technique of one person in the clan doesn't mean everyone has that ability. The insects Shino controls live within his body, if he doesn't have poisonous insects he can't use poisonous insects.

    Now explain exactly how Choji removes Katsuyu. All here minis, even if he attempts defeating Katsuyu, it would be in vain. As he doesn't actually have something to hurt Katsuyu with.

    The whole team won't have much of a choice as there is a Katsuyu towering over them.
    Also I will point out that Tsunade is very capable of fast handseals. So stopping her from summoning seems a bit odd.
    Your trying to bend his abilities in favor of Tsunade. Poisonous insects arnt any diffrent from regular ones in the eyes of Shino.

    If Katsuya has split then its only easier to move her. Chōdan Bakugeki would easily remove the small Katsuya's from the battlefield while he's using Chō Baika no Jutsu.

    Tsunade doesn't have a single feat of fast handseals. Even then, Sai easily blitzs her before she can do a single thing. Especially with Neji, Kiba, and Lee on top of her, who are all faster than her. While she's constantly being harrased by others

    The same thing i've been saying over and over
     
         

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    Re: Establishing Why K11 > Tsunade

    Oh dear lord, (with a little vibrato to it)
     
         

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    Re: Establishing Why K11 > Tsunade

    Quote Originally Posted by JTO View Post
    Oh dear lord, (with a little vibrato to it)
    u think she can win?
     
         

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    Re: Establishing Why K11 > Tsunade

    Quote Originally Posted by DemonicAvenger View Post
    Itachi was trashing Sasuke in Taijutsu while he was sick and holding back. There is really no one that is as skilled in Taijutsu as Itachi. (I know from our messages your tired of the Itachi wank, and I agree, but I cant let his abilities be overlooked either)

    Handseal speed and Hand speed are one in the same. If he can make multiple complex handseals before a Sharingan can even register it then Punches are no biggie.

    It wasn't just a bluff. Even Neji was in marvel at Naruto's hand to hand ability after he got the powerup. their speed was roughly the same, but their strength were on two diffrent levels. Naruto tied Kaiten with Mearly a punch. Neji may have been more "Skilled" but that just goes to show how far Power and Speed can go.

    (the bit about the Naruto and his Bunshin also backs up my argument about Sharingan v Byakugan. Sharingan is far superior when it comes to battling one or two very powerful oppenants, while the Byakugan is better at dealing with multiple weaker oppenants)

    Thats basically what I meant. Uchihas can defent from a much faster attack when its right in front of them, something on the level that a hyuuga wouldn't. But a Hyuuga can defend from mutliple angles at a level an Uchiha can't.

    Sharingan and Byakugan are very similar in terms of eye prowress (excluding MS) simply because Gentle fist isn't exactly part of Byakugans abilities. its something they developed to maximize their use of Byakugan. The same way that Uchiha's learned to copy Ninjutsu, use Sharingan for Genjutsu, and be really haxxed in Taijutsu to maximize their use of Sharingan.

    But I guess we can agree to disagree here.
    I must still disagree on this point here. Itachi, while highly skilled in all 3 areas of combat, is not the best in taijutsu. It was said that he was considered to be rather advanced in taijutsu when it wasnt his primary form of combat. According to the databooks, Sasuke only had a 3.5 in the manga while itachi had a 4.5, putting him on another level than Sasuke.

    That being said, Neji also boasts a 4.5 in taijutsu. The thing is, however, that Neji, having trained his whole life in taijutsu, has much greater experience over Itachi, who typically does not use taijutsu unless his opponent is too nimble for him to put them into a genjutsu off the spot and his ninjutsu wasnt enough of a distraction for him to find an opening. Not only that, but being a prodigy himself, Neji was able to recreate his clans most powerful taijutsu abilities such as 64 palms and kaiten purely through observation and in a relatively short time. Itachi's only true redeeming quality in this area is his speed that sits at a 5, which is only barely higher than Neji's 4.5.

    Handseal speed is not the same as handspeeds, or attacking speed. His ability to weave handsigns is a testament to how much time he dedicated to mastering handseals to the point where even the sharingan is unable to see them. Handspeeds, is not just about throwing punches out as fast as possible, its about being able to land an attack on the opponent faster than the opponent is able to react with great accuracy. Anyone could simply throw thier hands out as fast as possible to try to overwhelm their opponent with a barrage of punches, but they key is being able to actually land those hits accuratley enough to do some damage. Itachi is all about being able to move quickly in a fight, so that he can outmanuevre his opponent and ultimately put his opponent into a genjutsu; his super-quick handsigns being crucial to for him to retain the element of surprise.

    Neji, on the other hand, has actually trained his body to not only be fast and nimble, but to be able to attack his opponents with a barrage of strikes with pinpoint accuracy (meaning he's not just throwing his arms about hoping to land a hit, but deliberately placing each strike exactly where he intends for it to land) before they can react so that he can do maximum damage to the opponent through his gentle fist. He is also capable to simultaneously attacking and defending himself, which further showcases his taijutsu ability. This is something that Neji has specifically conditioned himself to do when in a taijutsu bout and has repeatedly shown this in practically every fight he has shown.

    In conclusion, should Neji and Itachi ever fight in a taijutsu bout, Neji would ultimately win due to his prowess, advanced techniques, and conditioning for said area of combat. Itachi is pretty good himself in taijutsu as well and has his sharingan to help him perceive his opponents next move, but ultimately, he will not be able to land a crucial blow on Neji the way Neji can to Itachi, nor will he be able to outlast him. After all, it only takes one hit for Neji to seriously mess anybody up, meaning the longer that the battle is dragged out, the more it will be in Neji's favor, because he will likely be able to land at least a few crucial blows in a relatively short period of time with his near overwhelming handspeed and his ability to attack and defend at the same time, while Itachi himself lacks a true tide-turning taijutsu ability to make up for his lack of experience in that general field of combat besides his sharingan precog. Itachi will likely be on the defensive the entire time.

    Now, there are other people who truly are better in taijutsu than Itachi such as Guy, Lee, Hiashi, Tsunade, and Hiruzen to name a few, just to clarify that Itachi is not the best in the NV at taijutsu. His sharingan is crucial for him to really be able to compete with these high-level taijutsu masters, but without it, he wont be able to match up against most of these people.

    Anyways, about Naruto vs Neji, Neji had only marveled at his speed, being able to dodge most of Neji's attacks and being able to keep up with him from a distance. When Naruto and Neji clashed, Neji's Kaiten wasn't actually complete, or at full strength, and I can go into another explanation about it, but I would rather not. In any case, it would not prove your point specifically because of Nejis attitude during that fight. Had he taken Naruto more seriously, he would have won the fight against that one opponent.

    At this last point, I guess we can agree to disagree.
     
         

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    Re: Establishing Why K11 > Tsunade

    No matter what proof you have, the kids stands no chance against Tsunade. She is on a completely different level then them.
     
         

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    Re: Establishing Why K11 > Tsunade

    Quote Originally Posted by fastrthnwind View Post
    I must still disagree on this point here. Itachi, while highly skilled in all 3 areas of combat, is not the best in taijutsu. It was said that he was considered to be rather advanced in taijutsu when it wasnt his primary form of combat. According to the databooks, Sasuke only had a 3.5 in the manga while itachi had a 4.5, putting him on another level than Sasuke.

    That being said, Neji also boasts a 4.5 in taijutsu. The thing is, however, that Neji, having trained his whole life in taijutsu, has much greater experience over Itachi, who typically does not use taijutsu unless his opponent is too nimble for him to put them into a genjutsu off the spot and his ninjutsu wasnt enough of a distraction for him to find an opening. Not only that, but being a prodigy himself, Neji was able to recreate his clans most powerful taijutsu abilities such as 64 palms and kaiten purely through observation and in a relatively short time. Itachi's only true redeeming quality in this area is his speed that sits at a 5, which is only barely higher than Neji's 4.5.

    Handseal speed is not the same as handspeeds, or attacking speed. His ability to weave handsigns is a testament to how much time he dedicated to mastering handseals to the point where even the sharingan is unable to see them. Handspeeds, is not just about throwing punches out as fast as possible, its about being able to land an attack on the opponent faster than the opponent is able to react with great accuracy. Anyone could simply throw thier hands out as fast as possible to try to overwhelm their opponent with a barrage of punches, but they key is being able to actually land those hits accuratley enough to do some damage. Itachi is all about being able to move quickly in a fight, so that he can outmanuevre his opponent and ultimately put his opponent into a genjutsu; his super-quick handsigns being crucial to for him to retain the element of surprise.

    Neji, on the other hand, has actually trained his body to not only be fast and nimble, but to be able to attack his opponents with a barrage of strikes with pinpoint accuracy (meaning he's not just throwing his arms about hoping to land a hit, but deliberately placing each strike exactly where he intends for it to land) before they can react so that he can do maximum damage to the opponent through his gentle fist. He is also capable to simultaneously attacking and defending himself, which further showcases his taijutsu ability. This is something that Neji has specifically conditioned himself to do when in a taijutsu bout and has repeatedly shown this in practically every fight he has shown.

    In conclusion, should Neji and Itachi ever fight in a taijutsu bout, Neji would ultimately win due to his prowess, advanced techniques, and conditioning for said area of combat. Itachi is pretty good himself in taijutsu as well and has his sharingan to help him perceive his opponents next move, but ultimately, he will not be able to land a crucial blow on Neji the way Neji can to Itachi, nor will he be able to outlast him. After all, it only takes one hit for Neji to seriously mess anybody up, meaning the longer that the battle is dragged out, the more it will be in Neji's favor, because he will likely be able to land at least a few crucial blows in a relatively short period of time with his near overwhelming handspeed and his ability to attack and defend at the same time, while Itachi himself lacks a true tide-turning taijutsu ability to make up for his lack of experience in that general field of combat besides his sharingan precog. Itachi will likely be on the defensive the entire time.

    Now, there are other people who truly are better in taijutsu than Itachi such as Guy, Lee, Hiashi, Tsunade, and Hiruzen to name a few, just to clarify that Itachi is not the best in the NV at taijutsu. His sharingan is crucial for him to really be able to compete with these high-level taijutsu masters, but without it, he wont be able to match up against most of these people.

    Anyways, about Naruto vs Neji, Neji had only marveled at his speed, being able to dodge most of Neji's attacks and being able to keep up with him from a distance. When Naruto and Neji clashed, Neji's Kaiten wasn't actually complete, or at full strength, and I can go into another explanation about it, but I would rather not. In any case, it would not prove your point specifically because of Nejis attitude during that fight. Had he taken Naruto more seriously, he would have won the fight against that one opponent.

    At this last point, I guess we can agree to disagree.
    True, But usually I dont take DB Scores into account unless there's nothing else to go on or to reinforce an argument (since they can be so misleading). So I really didn't think to check his score since Sasuke's CQC abilities looked top notch.

    I'll have to disagree on that. Neji's fighting style is certainly based around Taijutsu, But hes 4 years younger than Itachi and has been a "Ninja" for 4 Years. While Itachi has been a Ninja for almost 17 years. While that Gives him a monumental amount of overall experience over Neji, and feats show that Taijutsu has been a large part of that.

    That doesn't change the fact that they're one in the same. It still shows he can move his hands at insane speeds, this can be applied to a punch, maybe not as much so as a handseal, but still so.

    Agreed

    Disagreed, I think we're interpretting things diffrently

    Gai maybe, but im going to have to disagree with the rest (Hiashi goes without saying since I still believe Itachi to be above Neji), but he's definately above Tsunade in skill without question, Lee as well.

    Neji should have been fully taking Naruto Seriously there, the surprise factor should have worn off and he would have been going all out, in an extended fight Naruto had the stamina advantage and a slight speed advantage (distance closing speed, not short burst Taijutsu speed; which was around equal after the 0tk power-up), any way it went the result would have ended up the way it did. (IMO Kishi drew Neji's Kaiten at that instant more for dramatic writing, but thats really not a counter, which if i were trying to do i would say that Naruto would be able to do just as he did in the manga any way it whent. )


    BTW: what do you think of the new AVA and Sig? better than the Naruto and Madara one?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheEvilOne View Post
    No matter what proof you have, the kids stands no chance against Tsunade. She is on a completely different level then them.
    So your saying your opinion > proof? That doesn't make much sense.

    Btw, Neji, Lee, and Ten-Ten were all about 17-18. Making them Adults.
     
         
    Last edited by DemonicAvenger; 02-03-2013 at 08:28 PM.

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    Re: Establishing Why K11 > Tsunade

    Quote Originally Posted by DemonicAvenger View Post
    So your saying your opinion > proof? That doesn't make much sense.
    Btw, Neji, Lee, and Ten-Ten were all about 17-18. Making them Adults.
    Exactly. Kishi made Tsunade's character too OP. She is a Legendary Sannin, her name is feared and respected all over the Shinobi world. Saying a bunch of chuunins can defeat her, is equal with insulting her character. Even that Katsu-whatever would be a challange to them, let alone the Hokage herself.
    And I don't even like her character. I'm an Uchiha fan.
     
         
    Last edited by TheEvilOne; 02-03-2013 at 08:40 PM.

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    Re: Establishing Why K11 > Tsunade

    Quote Originally Posted by TheEvilOne View Post
    Exactly. Kishi made Tsunade's character too OP. She is a Legendary Sannin, her name is feared and respected all over the Shinobi world. Saying a bunch of chuunins can defeat her, is equal with insulting her character. Even that Katsu-whatever would be a challange them, let alone the Hokage herself.
    And I don't even like her character. I'm an Uchiha fan.
    The instant you agreed that your opinion was above proof your argument was null and void. Kakashi's name was more well know than her's, and his father's was equal to all to all the Sanin, but you don't see anyone saying that Sakumo could solo the Sanin.

    Hype means nothing in Vs. Threads.

    What does being an Uchiha fanboy have to do with anything? Im an Uchiha fanboy as well (but it usually gets overshadowed by my Naruto/Biju/Jinchuriki fanboyism)
     
         

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