[VS] Mei vs kakuzu

['Ray]

The manga is my explanation.

Fuuton > Boil
Rock armor > Lava

what's so special about mei's abilities ?

[Slug Princess Tsunade]

Fuuton > Boil
Rock armor > Lava

what's so special about mei's abilities ?

Katon > Fuuton
Suiton > Katon
Doton > Suiton
Futton > Madara's Complete Susanoo, therefore Futton > Kakuzu's defence
Yoton > Kakuzu's doton.

+ Mei uses those elements on Kage level. Remember, in part1 the jounins were surprised when Tobirama used a Water Dragon with one hand seal. Mei can do the same too.

['Ray]

Katon > Fuuton

fuuton just makes katon stronger, so he'll just use katon too, which is stronger than her's.

Doton > Suiton

that's in kakuzu's favor , isn't it ?

Futton > Madara's Complete Susanoo, therefore Futton > Kakuzu's defence

that's just too stupid, madara's susanoo is chakra, kakuzu's defence is rocks
mei's fuuton won't melt it.,and even if it could, it won't affect kakuzu's body from the inside ,he'll just create another armor.

+ Mei uses those elements on Kage level. Remember, in part1 the jounins were surprised when Tobirama used a Water Dragon with one hand seal. Mei can do the same too.

there's no evidence, her hand seal were just fast , she didn't only use 1 handseal.
i can't believe you're comparing her to Tobirama

*you just listed each jutsu's weakness, you didn't even prove how and which one will mei use?

[EjBlack]

To those who are saying that Kakuzu jutsu size is not comparable to Mei:

First, here is the size of humans to give you reference


Notice how small the human is to the trees,




And now look at the size of the jutsu compared to those same trees that dwarf the humans

Wind


Fire

NOW, lets compare that to Madara's body and Mei's Suiton:


Madara's body size


Madara's Katon that Mei counter size


Mei's Water Dragon size compare to human.


Is this cleared up?

[-6 Paths-]

To those who are saying that Kakuzu jutsu size is not comparable to Mei:

First, here is the size of humans to give you reference


Notice how small the human is to the trees,




And now look at the size of the jutsu compared to those same trees that dwarf the humans

Wind


Fire

NOW, lets compare that to Madara's body and Mei's Suiton:


Madara's body size


Madara's Katon that Mei counter size


Mei's Water Dragon size compare to human.


Is this cleared up?

Huh, that was a pretty damn good post

I never realized just how much smaller Mei's Dragon is compared to his attacks, good job, thanks for clearing that up :D

[Shikamaru101]

Mei's water dragon size does not matter and it is unfair to compare. The water dragon is smaller due to the fact that it arrives on a head on collision to the Susanno to push it back to allow A to hit it. If it covered a larger area then it would not have served this purpose.

Second of all, Mei's reaction time was incredibly fast. Able to use the Water Dragon with no available water source as a defence to the Fire Style and then to instantly attack again with a Water Style as offence.

Thirdly, Uchiha's are known to have the most powerful Fire Style's. If Mei could counter one of Madara's who was known to be especially powerful, i am sure she could handle Kakuzu's.

Fourthly, Mei's Boil and Lava release are not to be taken lightly. Both able to break through Susanoo and even Madara said that he could not be drawn into a technique of that level when talking about the lava. As the Susanoo is considered a Ultimate Defense, it can get through Kakuzu's armour.

[ItachiStyle]

Those trees are not consistent in their size, as I pointed out in the other thread, you can't assume all of them are the size of the largest. Likewise, the biggest tree is no more than the size of the head of the Water Dragon at best, a tech much larger. Lastly, Mei's jutsu needs to be infused with enough chakra to counter Madara's flame release, so by default Mei's attacks are using comparable chakra to Madara's fire ones... are you seriously suggesting Kakuzu's attacks have anything like that amount of chakra infused in them? Seriously?

[EjBlack]

Those trees are not consistent in their size, as I pointed out in the other thread, you can't assume all of them are the size of the largest. Likewise, the biggest tree is no more than the size of the head of the Water Dragon at best, a tech much larger. Lastly, Mei's jutsu needs to be infused with enough chakra to counter Madara's flame release, so by default Mei's attacks are using comparable chakra to Madara's fire ones... are you seriously suggesting Kakuzu's attacks have anything like that amount of chakra infused in them? Seriously?

My response is the same as the other post.

[TheEvilOne]

My response is the same as the other post.

He countered that post.
Mei's jutsus are FAAAR stronger then Kakuzus. All he has are his hearts and the doton armor. Mei melted a Complete Susanoo, Kakuzu won't be a problem.

[ItachiStyle]

Even if we assume it's the biggest trees:
a) it's still smaller than the water dragon (it's a little under the size of the head), and
b) chakra infusion isn't just about size. The rasengan shuriken for instance is not very large but has incredible infusion relative to size. Mei's chakra infusion is sufficient that she can counteract Madara's Katon's. That's incredible. Nothing about Kakuzu's attacks suggests that level of power (indeed, it was stopped by Yamato and Naruto quite easily, and this was a much weaker Naruto than we have running around now). His lightning attack was stopped by Kakashi too, so that tells you something about the sort of power each individual mask has... decent, but not Madara levels or even close.

[EjBlack]

Even if we assume it's the biggest trees:
a) it's still smaller than the water dragon (it's a little under the size of the head),

Mei's dragon (Compare to the biggest tree) Is the same height but not the same width (Tree has larger width). Which Kakuzu's jutsu completely overwhelm with it's weight and height.

and
b) chakra infusion isn't just about size. The rasengan shuriken for instance is not very large but has incredible infusion relative to size.
Naruto's width of the explosion would overwhelm Mei's dragon. Naruto's infusion wind in Rasengan>Mei's infusion in her suiton.

Mei's chakra infusion is sufficient that she can counteract Madara's Katon's. That's incredible.
Look at Mardara's again then look at Kakuzu. Not saying Kakuzu is a better fire user but to compare it on what fire Madara used and size comparing to what Kakuzu used is wrong.

Nothing about Kakuzu's attacks suggests that level of power
Re-read the scan

(indeed, it was stopped by Yamato and Naruto quite easily, and this was a much weaker Naruto than we have running around now).
Show me the difference in scan, him using it more fluently now doesn't prove that it was weaker then previous times

His lightning attack was stopped by Kakashi too, so that tells you something about the sort of power each individual mask has... decent, but not Madara levels or even close.

How is that lower Kakuzu jutsu value by comparing Kakashi blocking it? Read what Mei counter compare to his other fire release.

[ItachiStyle]

That reply basically implies Madara's standard fire attacks are the same chakra infusion as Kakuzu... ridiculous. Nor is the fire one the same size as the dragon attack, which is huge, you're simply wrong. Kakashi's chakra levels are relatively low... and he can block Kakuzu's attack... the only reason he couldn't block fire anymore was because it was bolstered by Wind... Kakashi's chakra is nowhere close to Madara's, which Mei can block. It seems obvious that Kakuzu's chakra infusion is not close to Mei's.

[EjBlack]

That reply basically implies Madara's standard fire attacks are the same chakra infusion as Kakuzu...ridiculous.

No the scan clearly shows that Kakuzu's beats Madara's standard fire in every way.


or



Scans are clear, ridiculous and underrate on your part, as usual/



Nor is the fire one the same size as the dragon attack, which is huge, you're simply wrong.
Look at Madara's body size compare to his Standard fire. Compare Madara's body to the trees in Kakuzu scene. You are wrong, body size matters

Kakashi's chakra levels are relatively low... and he can block Kakuzu's attack...
Kakashi used his signature move to cancel the lightening release. That is the only attacked he blocked

the only reason he couldn't block fire anymore was because it was bolstered by Wind... Kakashi's chakra is nowhere close to Madara's, which Mei can block. It seems obvious that Kakuzu's chakra infusion is not close to Mei's.

Mei cannot break Kakuzu's combo with water alone, especially of the size you clearly are not getting. Note that I am not implying that Fire alone would beat Mei's Water. My argument is that Kakuzu jutsu are actually compared to Mei size, but infact has a wider scale.

[ItachiStyle]

Your interpretation of those scans is wrong. Mei's water dragon is not just a head, it is significantly larger, and the tongue of that head is as big as Madara's Susanoo. The trees are not taller than that, Mei's attack stretches all the way through Onoki's dust release for heaven's sake:

That space is much longer than the trees are tall, and the dragon's head is as large as Kakuzu's biggest attack:

Note, that's just the head of the dragon, which goes all the way through Onoki's giant Jinton.

You also continue to claim Kakuzu's jutsu's have equal chakra infusion to Madara, even though I explained size and chakra infusion were not the same. This is difficult to believe.

Lastly, Kakashi blocking with his Raikiri means the chakra infusion would need to be comparable to Kakuzu's... Kakashi has relatively poor chakra levels for a top end fighter. That Kakashi can counter Kakuzu's suggests a comparable amount of chakra infused in his techs... in other words nothing like Madara type levels (which Mei can block).

[EjBlack]

Your interpretation of those scans is wrong. Mei's water dragon is not just a head, it is significantly larger, and the tongue of that head is as big as Madara's Susanoo. The trees are not taller than that, Mei's attack stretches all the way through Onoki's dust release for heaven's sake:

That space is much longer than the trees are tall, and the dragon's head is as large as Kakuzu's biggest attack:

Note, that's just the head of the dragon, which goes all the way through Onoki's giant Jinton.

I really don't think you understand the tree's size to a human that I just post. Im gonna post it again. How do you conclude The head of the Dragon that bite Madara (At a right size to consume a human body) is comparable to these trees (Which are way bigger and wider then a human size?:


You also continue to claim Kakuzu's jutsu's have equal chakra infusion to Madara, even though I explained size and chakra infusion were not the same. This is difficult to believe.
How do you even disprove that Kakuzu infusion is lacking?

Lastly, Kakashi blocking with his Raikiri means the chakra infusion would need to be comparable to Kakuzu's... Kakashi has relatively poor chakra levels for a top end fighter. That Kakashi can counter Kakuzu's suggests a comparable amount of chakra infused in his techs... in other words nothing like Madara type levels (which Mei can block).

Raikiri lacks infusion? The whole point of the signature jutsu (that is well-known around the NV) is base on infusion to cut through anything. By what proof are you giving Madara's infusion (His standard fire) compare to Kakuzu's type of Release?

[zexion333]

Dont bother you should of seen that guys teir list lol he thinks hes the greatest debater and wont admit he lost

[ItachiStyle]

Because that's just the head of the dragon? Duh. And I explained how we can analyse Kakuzu's infusion, not that we should need to when it's being compared to Madara. If you want to claim his techniques have the same chakra infusion as Madara, you're going to need some evidence for it... so far we can see both his Earth and Lightning techs were of comparable infusion to Kakashi (who could counter them)... Kakashi also remarked that he couldn't stop the fire attack with his suiton because it was bolstered by wind. That's two and a half examples of Kakuzu being comparable to Kakashi in terms of infusion, Kakashi who is famed for his mediocre chakra levels... as opposed to Madara, famed as one of the most chakra heavy characters in the manga.

[EjBlack]

Dont bother you should of seen that guys teir list lol he thinks hes the greatest debater and wont admit he lost

I saw some quotes of how he view the Zombie Duo. In no way I am trying to convince to disagree on Mei's defeat. But to not deny that Kakuzu and Mei's jutsu scales are at par.

Because that's just the head of the dragon? Duh.
So then you are wrong by saying just the head is comparable to those tress


And I explained how we can analyse Kakuzu's infusion, not that we should need to when it's being compared to Madara.

Just because Madara specialize in fire as in Unchia doesn't make his standards comparable to a fire release that takes difficulty to perform.

If you want to claim his techniques have the same chakra infusion as Madara, you're going to need some evidence for it...
There will never be evidence of them clashing jutsu. We have to go by logic. By scans I post Kakuzu's fire (Intellent HARD WORK) is better then Madara's standard fire. Mei is not taking the combo with Wind nor is Madara.

so far we can see both his Earth and Lightning techs were of comparable infusion to Kakashi (who could counter them)... Kakashi also remarked that he couldn't stop the fire attack with his suiton because it was bolstered by fire. That's two and a half examples of Kakuzu being comparable to Kakashi in terms of infusion, Kakashi who is famed for his mediocre chakra levels... as opposed to Madara, famed as one of the most chakra heavy characters in the manga.

That doesn't proof anything just because someone has more chakra then you doesn't prove that their infusion is better. Other wise Naruto's Rasegen should alway be superioir then Sasuke clashing his Chidori. And btw Kakuzu can change the size of of his attack and "Infusion" at will then comparing to what Kakashi was trying to counter:

Size 1:


Size change:

[zexion333]

^ya alright but even that this guy does not like to change his views :/ BUT GOOD luck your a pretty skilled debater more so then myself so hope you can do it

[ItachiStyle]

So your argument boils down to "because some of Kakuzu's fire attacks were bigger in scale than some of Madara's, they must be equal or greater in chakra infusion". That isn't convincing anyone.

We've seen 2 of Kakuzu's natures v.s Kakashi, and both times Kakashi had sufficient chakra to counter them, meaning their attacks were of comparable chakra infusion (or blocking them wouldn't have worked). Kakuzu has every incentive to put lots of chakra into his earth spear especially, as it is what's protecting him from being killed. A 3rd time Kakashi tries to counter, but remarks he must not be able to because the fire was bolstered by wind, so a 3rd time Kakashi seems to think he can counter Kakuzu's chakra infusion. Does anyone think Kakashi could counter Madara's normal chakra infusion? Of course not, because he's on a different level, a level Mei is at apparently, but Kakashi is not (and by extension, Kakuzu is not).

[EjBlack]

So your argument boils down to "because some of Kakuzu's fire attacks were bigger in scale than some of Madara's, they must be equal or greater in chakra infusion". That isn't convincing anyone.

We've seen 2 of Kakuzu's natures v.s Kakashi, and both times Kakashi had sufficient chakra to counter them, meaning their attacks were of comparable chakra infusion (or blocking them wouldn't have worked). Kakuzu has every incentive to put lots of chakra into his earth spear especially, as it is what's protecting him from being killed. A 3rd time Kakashi tries to counter, but remarks he must not be able to because the fire was bolstered by wind, so a 3rd time Kakashi seems to think he can counter Kakuzu's chakra infusion. Does anyone think Kakashi could counter Madara's normal chakra infusion? Of course not, because he's on a different level, a level Mei is at apparently, but Kakashi is not (and by extension, Kakuzu is not).

Kakashi only counter Earth and Lightening. I don't know why you keep bringing him up. These two counters is irrelevant to my arugment of fire and wind. Kakashi never counter fire and wind. The whole purpose of Kakashi pushing Fire+Wind combo was for kishi to demonstrate something important in the Manga (2 elements merge can would not be enough to counter it's weakness). Kishi heavenly applies this by (according to translations) adding " " to get the readers to understand. Kishimoto cannot go out of his way to destroy a main character from this thus CHANGED THE SIZE AND INFUSION ON KAUZU BEHAVE:

Look at the size Kishi wants the reader to demonstrate of countering:


NOW Kakuzu ACTUAL POTENTIAL:

[ItachiStyle]

None of what you posted is relevant. It's all been covered. Yes, we all get that the wind made the fire stronger. It doesn't change the fact that we have no reason to believe that made the attack anywhere near Madara levels (which is where Mei is). Say the wind doubled the fire's strength... that's still only double the level of chakra infusion which Kakuzu normally has in his attacks... and that level is comparable to Kakashi (i.e. nowhere near Madara levels). Problem, not solved.

[EjBlack]

None of what you posted is relevant. It's all been covered. Yes, we all get that the wind made the fire stronger. It doesn't change the fact that we have no reason to believe that made the attack anywhere near Madara levels (which is where Mei is). Say the wind doubled the fire's strength... that's still only double the level of chakra infusion which Kakuzu normally has in his attacks... and that level is comparable to Kakashi (i.e. nowhere near Madara levels). Problem, not solved.

None of what you posted is relevant. It's all been covered. Yes, we all get that the wind made the fire stronger. It doesn't change the fact that we have no reason to believe that made the attack anywhere near Madara levels (which is where Mei is). Say the wind doubled the fire's strength... that's still only double the level of chakra infusion which Kakuzu normally has in his attacks... and that level is comparable to Kakashi (i.e. nowhere near Madara levels). Problem, not solved.

Your whole argument is base off Kakashi is able to counter it therefore Kakuzu attacks are not in Madara's level (Which you are wrong about Kakashi ever doing). Kakuzu fire release (Intellengt hard work) has shown to be better then Madara's standard fire release by far in Infusion and size. So is his Wind. Problem solved, until you realize Kakashi never counter these:




And actually understand the purpose of this scan "That you claim proof that Kakashi did" in its actual context:


That Kakuzu's jutsu are in par or greater then what Mei and Standard fire Madara has shown:

[ItachiStyle]

You are basing infusion on size. The size of a tech doesn't tell us how much chakra was infused into it though, as I have explained repeatedly.

We do have 2 techs to go on for Kakuzu's chakra infusion however- his earth spear, and his lightning attack. Both of those were at Kakashi levels, otherwise he couldn't have countered them with his own jutsu. It seems reasonable to infer most of his attacks are at the same sort of level (after all, why would be pour less chakra into his other techs, especially earth spear, which he needs to protect himself).

That is totally consistent with his air and fire attacks, which Kakashi cannot counter because he's using two of them together to make the attack stronger. I'm happy to assume he's doubling the offensive power... however double Kakashi's chakra infusion shouldn't bring you up to Madara type levels, or even close really. So on the evidence we have, Kakuzu's chakra infusion can't compare to Mei's. The rest is just speculation.

[EjBlack]

You are basing infusion on size. The size of a tech doesn't tell us how much chakra was infused into it though, as I have explained repeatedly.

No, my point was the show that the size of all their attacks are the same in par (And I was right that are the same size). It is you who have no solid foundation to say Kakuzu lacks infusion/strength of the attack, base on Mei and Madara.

We do have 2 techs to go on for Kakuzu's chakra infusion however- his earth spear, and his lightning attack. Both of those were at Kakashi levels, otherwise he couldn't have countered them with his own jutsu. It seems reasonable to infer most of his attacks are at the same sort of level (after all, why would be pour less chakra into his other techs, especially earth spear, which he needs to protect himself).

No we have to go by all of Kakuzu techs to know Kakuzu's chakra infusion. Your being bias on only two out of 5 techs to support your claims. But infact now you have to disprove that Kakashi signature move (Raikri) lacks infusion (Just because "he lacks chakra reserves") , your not being reasonable at all.

That is totally consistent with his air and fire attacks, which Kakashi cannot counter because he's using two of them together to make the attack stronger. I'm happy to assume he's doubling the offensive power... however double Kakashi's chakra infusion shouldn't bring you up to Madara type levels, or even close really. So on the evidence we have, Kakuzu's chakra infusion can't compare to Mei's. The rest is just speculation.

Ok lets leave out the fusion. STILL, Kakashi can not even counter the Fire alone which I just post. Kakashi cannot counter the air alone. So you using Kakashi has your foundation on why Kakuzu lacks infusions bares no water. You lack a foundation to support your claim that Kakuzu's infusion lacks Mei and Madara.