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  1. #126
    Member jdorm's Avatar
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    Re: Abortion

    that is the thinking that let this laws pass cause you are letting someone kill a living organism because a technicality, science is not always right takes time to prove something....just tell me if you never hear a doctor be wrong about a diagnostic that was or case

    saying a fetus is not alive when he is growing inside is not right....after all the baby body is making a choice to live
    if it is alive you are killing it what ever his situation is
     
         

  2. #127
    Senior Member KuraiandAlbel's Avatar
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    Re: Abortion

    I strongly believe it is the right of the mother.
     
         

  3. #128
    Member DeViliShChild's Avatar
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    Re: Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by jdorm View Post
    that is the thinking that let this laws pass cause you are letting someone kill a living organism because a technicality, science is not always right takes time to prove something....just tell me if you never hear a doctor be wrong about a diagnostic that was or case

    saying a fetus is not alive when he is growing inside is not right....after all the baby body is making a choice to live
    if it is alive you are killing it what ever his situation is
    It is alive but it needs the mother to live. So essentially, it is an extension of the mother. That "baby" is absolutely nothing without the mother. So why can't the mother choose to do with essentially is herself?

    As for science, it is the best thing we have and until your point is proven by it, then you have to accept the current school of thought as valid. You may disagree with it, but smarter people than you and I have devoted their lives to figuring it out, so to say that they are wrong is rather ignorant.

    Lastly, as for being wrong as a doctor, that is human error. But ya know what, lets say someone aborts and it didn't need to. You can always make another.
     
         

  4. #129
    Member jdorm's Avatar
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    Re: Abortion

    i think or difference is who you are trying to protect and i always give a hand to the helpless
    yes terrible things happen to everyone but give a chance.... an opportunity if nothing can be done its understandable
    but why kill someone because you are going to be bother or was unprepared ....make a good choice look for a foster parent someone that you know is going to love this child as his own

    vasectomy for man
    hysterectomy for woman that doesn't want kids that's the scientific solution for this
     
         
    Last edited by jdorm; 02-04-2013 at 04:23 AM.

  5. #130
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    Re: Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by jdorm View Post
    i think or difference is who you are trying to protect and i always give a hand to the helpless
    yes terrible things happen to everyone but give a chance.... an opportunity if nothing can be done its understandable
    but why kill someone because you are going to be bother or was unprepared ....make a good choice look for a foster parent someone that you know is going to love this child as his own

    vasectomy for man
    hysterectomy for woman that doesn't want kids that's the scientific solution for this
    I agree that people need to stop having sex with no protection if they don't want a kid.
     
         

  6. #131
    Member jdorm's Avatar
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    http://www.epm.org/resources/2010/Ma...ng-conception/

    Scientists Attest To Life Beginning At Conception

    By Randy Alcorn
    Some of the world’s most prominent scientists and physicians testified to a U.S. Senate committee that human life begins at conception:

    A United States Senate Judiciary Subcommittee invited experts to testify on the question of when life begins. All of the quotes from the following experts come directly from the official government record of their testimony.1

    Dr. Alfred M. Bongiovanni, professor of pediatrics and obstetrics at the University of Pennsylvania, stated:

    “I have learned from my earliest medical education that human life begins at the time of conception.... I submit that human life is present throughout this entire sequence from conception to adulthood and that any interruption at any point throughout this time constitutes a termination of human life....

    I am no more prepared to say that these early stages [of development in the womb] represent an incomplete human being than I would be to say that the child prior to the dramatic effects of puberty...is not a human being. This is human life at every stage.”

    Dr. Jerome LeJeune, professor of genetics at the University of Descartes in Paris, was the discoverer of the chromosome pattern of Down syndrome. Dr. LeJeune testified to the Judiciary Subcommittee, “after fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into being.” He stated that this “is no longer a matter of taste or opinion,” and “not a metaphysical contention, it is plain experimental evidence.” He added, “Each individual has a very neat beginning, at conception.”

    Professor Hymie Gordon, Mayo Clinic: “By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception.”

    Professor Micheline Matthews-Roth, Harvard University Medical School: “It is incorrect to say that biological data cannot be decisive.... It is scientifically correct to say that an individual human life begins at conception.... Our laws, one function of which is to help preserve the lives of our people, should be based on accurate scientific data.”

    Dr. Watson A. Bowes, University of Colorado Medical School: “The beginning of a single human life is from a biological point of view a simple and straightforward matter—the beginning is conception. This straightforward biological fact should not be distorted to serve sociological, political, or economic goals.”

    A prominent physician points out that at these Senate hearings, “Pro-abortionists, though invited to do so, failed to produce even a single expert witness who would specifically testify that life begins at any point other than conception or implantation. Only one witness said no one can tell when life begins.”2

    Many other prominent scientists and physicians have likewise affirmed with certainty that human life begins at conception:

    Ashley Montague, a geneticist and professor at Harvard and Rutgers, is unsympathetic to the prolife cause. Nevertheless, he affirms unequivocally, “The basic fact is simple: life begins not at birth, but conception.”3

    Dr. Bernard Nathanson, internationally known obstetrician and gynecologist, was a cofounder of what is now the National Abortion Rights Action League (NARAL). He owned and operated what was at the time the largest abortion clinic in the western hemisphere. He was directly involved in over sixty thousand abortions.

    Dr. Nathanson’s study of developments in the science of fetology and his use of ultrasound to observe the unborn child in the womb led him to the conclusion that he had made a horrible mistake. Resigning from his lucrative position, Nathanson wrote in the New England Journal of Medicine that he was deeply troubled by his “increasing certainty that I had in fact presided over 60,000 deaths.”4

    In his film, “The Silent Scream,” Nathanson later stated, “Modern technologies have convinced us that beyond question the unborn child is simply another human being, another member of the human community, indistinguishable in every way from any of us.” Dr. Nathanson wrote Aborting America to inform the public of the realities behind the abortion rights movement of which he had been a primary leader.5 At the time Dr. Nathanson was an atheist. His conclusions were not even remotely religious, but squarely based on the biological facts.

    Dr. Landrum Shettles was for twenty-seven years attending obstetrician-gynecologist at Columbia-Presbyterian Medical Center in New York. Shettles was a pioneer in sperm biology, fertility, and sterility. He is internationally famous for being the discoverer of male- and female-producing sperm. His intrauterine photographs of preborn children appear in over fifty medical textbooks. Dr. Shettles states,

    I oppose abortion. I do so, first, because I accept what is biologically manifest—that human life commences at the time of conception—and, second, because I believe it is wrong to take innocent human life under any circumstances. My position is scientific, pragmatic, and humanitarian. 6

    The First International Symposium on Abortion came to the following conclusion:

    The changes occurring between implantation, a six-week embryo, a six-month fetus, a one-week-old child, or a mature adult are merely stages of development and maturation. The majority of our group could find no point in time between the union of sperm and egg, or at least the blastocyst stage, and the birth of the infant at which point we could say that this was not a human life.7

    The Official Senate report on Senate Bill 158, the “Human Life Bill,” summarized the issue this way:

    Physicians, biologists, and other scientists agree that conception marks the beginning of the life of a human being—a being that is alive and is a member of the human species. There is overwhelming agreement on this point in countless medical, biological, and scientific writings.8
     
         
    Last edited by Ira; 02-04-2013 at 05:20 AM.

  7. #132
    Member DeViliShChild's Avatar
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    Re: Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by jdorm View Post
    see that was my choice how do you find it wrong i copy paste...but i did for the people that don't go to links
    It is against the rules of the site and is considered spam, I was just trying to help you out. However, you take it as a personal attack. Well i am done with this so good night.
     
         

  8. #133
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    Re: Abortion

    holy ass monkeys at the text walls O_o
     
         

  9. #134
    Member jdorm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by narutothetoadsage View Post
    See, in my country, fetus is considered viable at the age of 7 months gestation.
    And as for baby being born at 5 months, it will happen even sooner with the advancement in medical technology. But then, they will also be able to clone humans sometime. So, this argument is of no use.
    ha

    Quote Originally Posted by DeViliShChild View Post
    Don't copy paste what was in the link that you just posted
    see that was my choice how do you find it wrong i copy paste...but i did for the people that don't go to links

    a decision to abortion should be carefully consider by the person involves and a counselor, i am not all against in special situations like when the baby is going to suffer all his life its acceptable

    but the decision should be based in what is the best for the baby even if it is dependent on the mother
    after all they still are an extension of us until they become undependent

    Quote Originally Posted by DeViliShChild View Post
    It is against the rules of the site and is considered spam, I was just trying to help you out. However, you take it as a personal attack. Well i am done with this so good night.
    i am sorry and is not taking it as a personal attack i apologize

    yeah this is a political and religious discussion it will never end
    ill keep my point of view and vote for it
     
         
    Last edited by Ira; 02-04-2013 at 05:19 AM.

  10. #135
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    Re: Abortion

    Aint noobody got time for that
     
         

  11. #136
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    Re: Abortion

    Abortion? In my opinion, it's wrong because it's a human being. If the mother was raped and can't take care of it, put the baby up for adoption. Even if the baby isn't born yet, it's still a human being. Killing the baby is just horrible. You're basically taking its life away.... its future. If the baby isn't a healthy baby, still don't kill it. That baby has a future and you're going to take it away just because you were raped or because you can't take care of it ? Regardless who the mother was raped by; like a father, uncle, etc... Abortion is not the way to go. That's how I feel towards Abortion. Imagine if your mother killed you while you were still in your womb, can you imagine how horrible that would be?
     
         

  12. #137
    is carbon based. Ira's Avatar
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    Re: Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by jdorm View Post
    yeah this is a political and religious discussion it will never end
    ill keep my point of view and vote for it
    Please, do not multi post. Do not make duplicate posts either. It is against forum rules and now I will have to merge all and fix it all for you.


    As for this post- yes we got your point. Now you can relax and let others state their opinion instead of trying to hijack the thread all for yourself and trying to control the flow of conversation.
     
         
    Last edited by Ira; 02-04-2013 at 06:13 AM.

  13. #138
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    Re: Abortion

    I'd side with the right of the mother. Many people argue that an unwanted pregnancy can be solved by giving the child up for adoption or some foster care system but it's the effects of pregnancy and not the child that I often consider.

    Being pregnant isn't an easy task and doesn't just involve a slight bump in the abdomen. Carrying a child compresses your organs and causes discomfort during the later months. A woman will often need to take an extended period of time off work/schooling close to the birth and afterwards. In the event that the child breeches then the woman will often be advised to deliver via a Caesarean section. This can weaken the abdomen and increase the chances of muscle weakening and hernias. It also increases the likelihood of complications in later pregnancies. There is also the chance (admittedly very slim) that the pregnancy could take the life of the mother.

    Personally I'm fond of kids but I still think it's the mother's right to abort given that I wouldn't be the one lugging it around for the better part of a year.
     
         

  14. #139
    Senior Member Mangomango's Avatar
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    Re: Abortion

    Being pro-choice doesn't mean that you are anti-life. It just means that you think it's not up to you. I would say that I'm both. I would prefer that no one had abortions but at the end of the day life isn't perfect and some people need to make hard choices for the best for themselves no matter how selfish it maybe and I respect that right.

    One thing that does piss me off about this argument is when people get on the moral high horse and label young girls as murderers. If we are honest everyone in the world plays a part in murder every day. We support the economy and pay taxes, both of which goes towards funding war. We are indirectly killing people by allowing others to die on a daily basis when we could do something about it.

    Very few people die with a clean moral slate.
     
         

  15. #140
    Senior Member OrochimaruFan's Avatar
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    Re: Abortion

    I don't think men (with the exception of doctors) should publicly express their opinions on abortion. It pretty much has nothing to do with XYs.
     
         

  16. #141
    Senior Member SilverfoxUchiha's Avatar
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    Re: Abortion

    i dont think it is right, i see it as the murder of an innocent child in an indirect way. that said, however, i do feel there are understandable exceptions: i.e rape (not sure this is really appropriate for naruto base... but as you asked..), or underage (which constitutes as rape) and sometimes if the a danger the child might be seriously deformed or ill to the point that it might never have a normal life.

    Other than that i think people need to take responsibility for their actions. if you mature enough to have sex then use protection. if you choose not to then take responsibility. dont take it out on the innocent child, just because their conception was 'inconvenient'.
     
         

  17. #142
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    Re: Abortion

    as you say it's murder in an indirect way
     
         

  18. #143
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    Re: Abortion

    The question is not is abortion ok, the question is, is murder of small undeveloped people ok? The fact is, it IS murder. Now where you go from there, whether you justify it as a choice, it doesnt change the fact of what the act is. The real fact, is 100% of ALL pregnacies start with a choice. At least 80% of those pregnancies start with a mutual choice(i think more like 95% but i am being generous as i have not looked up the statistics). My question is what part of SEXUAL REPRODUCTION do you people not understand. Sex is designed to create pregnacies. It is not made for just pleasure. If you CHOOSE to have sex, you take a RISK that pregnancy can happen(even if you use contraceptives). Its the same risk that you take when you get on a airplane, that it COULD crash. It may not be likely, if the plane is built and maintained properly, but things can go wrong.

    Simply what i am saying, is if you CHOOSE to have sex, you should be fully prepared to have a kid. If you arent fully prepared to have a kid then keep your pants on. So in essence i am PRO CHOICE(the choice to have sex). Im just not pro murder. You have a choice to have sex.

    The only grounds you can somewhat try to justify abortion, is rape and in lifethreating pregnacy problems. Rape is the result of a single persons choice. But haveing an abortion wont stop the rape from happening, or take away that memory of it. In life threating situations, then obvidiously it is fine, as you are saving one life, by killing the other(like self defense) but it should be used only if a life can be saved(preferably both would be saved)


    The arguement that a fetus, is just "a clump of cells" is kinda lame and is a mute point. Any scientist who studies cells, can tell you that *wait for it* all HUMANS are just "clumps of cells" The only difference between a fetus and a full grown adult, is that the adult may have a slightly wider variety of cells than the fetus might depending on what stage of growth it is at. The only other thing, is that we have much more cells(through growth).


    What is something ALL humans have in common? WE were ALL zygotes at one time. And what is something all human zygotes have in common? 100% of them have always become human. Until you give me a example of a single time that a fetus has become anything but a human, then the fetus is human.

    There are many examples of human sperm not becoming a zygote, and human eggs not becoming a zygote. So an egg cant just become a fetus , and a sperm cant just become a fetus. It requires both(although with some technologies, it can be made artificially with 2 eggs.)





    And to those that may argue that the child inconveinences the mother for being pregnant. Most children, to the day they move out incovenience the parents. Children from at least 0-2 cant care for themselves at all. Many of them cause the parents lives to be crap early years, with lack of sleep, changing the dirty diapers and feeding them.

    To those that accuse the men who are prolife of not being capable of understanding the troubles that women go through being pregnant, please tell me, if being a woman makes that big of a difference, why are there many women who have been pregnant and are pro life? It is true we have not, and cannot expierence pregnancies, but we can still understand it.


    Also people may argue that pregnacies can be risky to health and lead to long term problems. Well, abortions can do the same thing. Just saying.

    I do not condemn anyone for haveing abortions. It makes me sad that they decided to kill the little guy, but i will not hate them for their action. What i hate, is how people try to play the act off as if its just like takeing a dump. Like it is a casual choice. Like it is just stopping a pregnacy instead of killing a baby. I would dislike, but say people could make the choice, only and only if one condition is met. That the woman wanting the abortion, needs to see a picture of the child before the abort it. I would like them to see a after photo as well. I guarentee you, that if that were done, people would wake up and see that it is a child. The numbers of the prochoice would fizzle greatly.


    So simply, there is no evidence to show that a zygote/fetus is anything other than a human, or that it isnt alive. So terminating it is a form of murder. So if anything, pro abortion people need to stop argueing that it isnt alive or it isnt a human, because it is. And abortion is killing a human.

    If you want to make a case based on facts, that is not just a hollow arguement, make a case why killing the young baby is fine. (murder in self defence is acceptable for instance. But it is still murder)(we murder millions of animals for food for example....that doesnt make the fetus any less human than you or me, i am simply trying to show that murder is murder, but it can be justified in certain cases. That doesnt change the fact it is still murder )

    So try to justify why the murder is ok. I may not agree with you, but at least then we can begin the reasonable(and rational) discussion.(to my critiques....i am trying not to take a moral position here. My main point i am trying to make is the fetus is a full fledged human, and killing it is a form of murder. I am not saying if it is or isnt right or wrong to have the choice, but i am calling it for what it is. While you may know that it is a child, or may at least understand what it is, many people who have abortions, have no clue what they are actually doing. They would treat the abortion as if it is like a flu shot. Treating abortion as a light matter is wrong, that much is clear.

    Also in no way am i being "righteous", or holding myself on a higher moral scale. I recognize noone is perfect and we all do dumb crap. I just have a dislike for people spinning the truth, and twisting what something is. Obidiously you can tell what side of the arguement i am. But what i am calling for and argueing about, should be something both sides agree on.


    at the end of the day nothing you or I say, will affect this issue at all. even talking about it is kinda pointless. I personally cant wait, as there will be a good chapter in 3 days, and in a month road to ninja will come out.

    So good night my friends. If we disagree we agree to disagree.
     
         

  19. #144
    Uchiha-Versteherin Kikki's Avatar
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    Re: Abortion

    If somebody got raped and decides to do this quickly, I agree, it's right or at least understandable in that situation. Otherwise I find it wrong. Having a child because of some little 'accident' and your boyfriend left you, said child should still have their chance. But a child that came from rape, I can understand how a woman feels totally disgusted and doesn't want to carry it for 9 months. But such a decision should be made quickly and not after 8 whatever months when it is really killing a fully developed human being.
     
         

  20. #145
    テン Tenten テン Kárma's Avatar
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    Re: Abortion

    I don't think its right the deprive someone of life why not just have the baby and put it up for adoption.....
     
         

  21. #146
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    Re: Abortion

    I vote "Kill it"

    Maybe use as a sacrifice for a good corn crop?
     
         

  22. #147
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    Re: Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by cptenn94 View Post
    Also people may argue that pregnacies can be risky to health and lead to long term problems. Well, abortions can do the same thing. Just saying.
    Provided the abortion occurs early enough in the pregnancy and is done in a safe manner (an actual medical person in a sterile environment) then it has a lower mortality rate than childbirth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kikki View Post
    If somebody got raped and decides to do this quickly, I agree, it's right or at least understandable in that situation. Otherwise I find it wrong. Having a child because of some little 'accident' and your boyfriend left you, said child should still have their chance. But a child that came from rape, I can understand how a woman feels totally disgusted and doesn't want to carry it for 9 months. But such a decision should be made quickly and not after 8 whatever months when it is really killing a fully developed human being.
    Abortions are restricted to a certain gestation time. Also I can't quite get my head around how you would physically abort an 8 month old foetus.
     
         

  23. #148
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    Re: Abortion

    It's murder anyway you look around it.

    Wether is right or wrong to murder someone who's inside your body waiting to come out....depends on the person.
     
         

  24. #149
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    Re: Abortion

    I think it's wrong but it's the womans body. It's selfish in my eyes. That woman chose to let a man ejaculate inside her for a night of fun instead of being careful, like the doctor warned, and the parents lectured, and teachers taught. Etc. If it was rape, I understand the woman completely. If the condom broke I also understand that. I'm just saying I know a lot of woman having unprotected sex, drunk sex, giving away their bodies. Then the tests come out positive and they're the victims and kill the fetus. A fetus can feel.
     
         

  25. #150
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    Re: Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Detective L View Post
    Do you feel abortion is the right of the mother or murder in an indirect way?
    I don't think anyone has ANY RIGHT in killing someone, especially a baby.
     
         

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