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  1. #101
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    Re: Kishi ruining the chronology on a whim

    Quote Originally Posted by Floydical View Post
    I don't get what everyone's so butt-hurt about. We knew for a fact that Hashirama lived at least until Tsunade's birth. Now we know he lived until she was at least 4 or 5, that's not much of a difference.
    So Hashirama died when she was 4 then "Tobirama was appointed as the Second Hokage. During his reign he was primarily responsible for establishing Konoha's organisational system. He established various organisations such as the Academy, the ANBU, the Chūnin Exams and the Konoha Military Police Force. At some point during his era, he and the Second Raikage met to form a formal alliance between Kumogakure and Konohagakure; however, Kinkaku and Ginkaku, Kumo's Gold and Silver Brothers, attempted a coup d’etat against the Second Raikage and left Tobirama near death during the fiasco". Then the First Shinobi War started and he died before it even ended. Hiruzen became Hokage won the war managed to mature and grow a beard all that in less than a year. Yeah that seems likely.
     
         

  2. #102
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    Re: Kishi ruining the chronology on a whim

    And btw, this is not "day 2" of the 4th Shinobi war... the war has been going for a while now, mobilising armies, moving them, etc... this is just day 2 of the first large scale fight.
     
         

  3. #103
    IMMORTAL THREAD COG DeadManWonderLand's Avatar
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    Re: Kishi ruining the chronology on a whim

    Quote Originally Posted by ItachiStyle View Post
    Why Kishi, why? It was already clear Tsunade couldn't have known the 1st Hokage, based on the timeline. Now, suddenly she did, so we get a funny joke... doesn't he have staff to point this stuff out to him before he does it?

    After all, the 1st and 2nd Hokage reigned for a not inconsiderable period, so even if the 1st knew her just before his death, and the 2nd reigned the minimal number of years, she's still too old to be a genin under (adult) Saru, with his beard and such. Annoying.
    ill let someone else point out how fail your are im soking a cigg and cant be bothered right now
     
         

  4. #104
    Kimblee Vs. Kisame Floydical's Avatar
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    Re: Kishi ruining the chronology on a whim

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarutobi Sasuke View Post
    Ohh, I see where this is coming from.

    I cant find that scene anywhere in the manga, maybe I'm not looking properly but I'm pretty sure you won't find it there either. But I do know that, that was a weird flashback Hiruzen was having in the anime. That was probably just some sort composite flashback. i.e. Two flashbacks in one. Anyway, thats all irrelevant since it comes from the anime. I'll assume that you know already that every now and then the anime decides to take initiative add their own ideas to the story. Which is why the anime is not considered cannon. That scene might be one of those times where the anime people made up their own stuff.

    Hiruzen is 18 years older than Tsunade. Which means that Hiruzen was 20-23 years old when Hashirama died, according to my timeline. In Hiruzen's anime flashback, he's portrayed as a very young boy (probably thirteen, give or take a few years). Read chapter 481 and you'll realize that Hiruzen was not a young boy when Tobirama declared him Hokage. Hashirama also was definitely also not present when Hiruzen was declared Hokage. Thats the sort of nonsense the anime sometimes comes up with every now and then.

    My advice to you is to disregard the anime and rely only on the Manga (and the databooks) for reference.

    Also, like I said before. The first Databook states that Tobirama became Hokage after Hashirama died.
    Ya this whole thing about Hashirama and Tobirama declaring Hiruzen Hokage at the same time is all based on an anime mistake. Now this top image is actually accurate, but that's when Hiruzen is really young:



    All this means is that he was a strong prospect from a very early age, but he definitely wasn't hokage yet.

    More importantly, as you said, the actual image from the anime of them declaring him Hokage together is not cannon. The problem stems from the the anime doing their best to interpret very small things out of the manga that we wouldn't normally notice. What I mean by that is usually the anime is pretty good at clarifying small things that we might not easily see for ourselves in the manga.

    The problem in this case is that they made an error in determining what the manga was implying. This is the page in question:



    As you can see, the anime came to the conclusion that the 2 kage were saying these things to Hiruzen at the same time, however this is not true. It is understandable, however, since the graphic surrounding the word 'Hokage' typically implies a very loud expression, or multiple people stating it at the same time. Basically what I'm saying is that the Anime came to the conclusion that they stated these things to Hiruzen at the same time, but they didn't. We know the situation where the 2nd promoted Hiruzen to Hokage, and this isn't it. Therefore, we can tell that they did not say this statement at the same time.

    Long story short, its an anime mistake, but the manga left it interpretable in various ways.
     
         

  5. #105
    ヽ(`Д´)ノ︵ ┻━┻ Kirin Rei's Avatar
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    Re: Kishi ruining the chronology on a whim

    Quote Originally Posted by Talal View Post
    So Hashirama died when she was 4 then "Tobirama was appointed as the Second Hokage. During his reign he was primarily responsible for establishing Konoha's organisational system. He established various organisations such as the Academy, the ANBU, the Chūnin Exams and the Konoha Military Police Force. At some point during his era, he and the Second Raikage met to form a formal alliance between Kumogakure and Konohagakure; however, Kinkaku and Ginkaku, Kumo's Gold and Silver Brothers, attempted a coup d’etat against the Second Raikage and left Tobirama near death during the fiasco". Then the First Shinobi War started and he died before it even ended. Hiruzen became Hokage won the war managed to mature and grow a beard all that in less than a year. Yeah that seems likely.
    Seriously though, I don't see the problem here.

    First of all we can only guess about Tsunade's age in Hashi's flashback, she could be anywhere from two to four, so that gives us an additional two year span.

    Second of all, even if we consider she's four years old back then, it gives us a two year time span, not less than a year.

    Lastly, it has been nearly a year (give or take) since Naruto returned to the village and do you want me to list the happenings in that short time span?
    The Kazekage dies and is saved by Konoha nin, they battle Akatsuki numerous times, Konoha is attacked, Konoha is destroyed down to the rubble, Pein is defeated, they build Konoha back from scratch, Tsunade is in a coma, Danzo is (temporarily) appointed as Hokage, Danzo dies, Tsunade reclaims her poisition, a Kage summit is held and the biggest war ever is waged.

    Just two days into the war the alliance has fought zombie previous Kage's, bosses, Gin-Kin brothers, sealed the Gin-Kin brothers and is currently battling Madara, Obito and the bloody Juubi and I assure you that this fight won't drag out till nightfall.
    On the other hand, the four previous Hokage's have been zombified by the likes of one sick b*stard named Orochimaru who was supposed to be dead.

    The above paragraph has happened mostly in one day.

    Just because Kishi likes to drag out instances doesn't mean they actually last that long. Every manga we read is about five minutes in Narutoverse, some more, some less. So it's perfectly plausible to consider all that you listed in your post happening in a time frame of two to four years.
     
         

  6. #106
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    Re: Kishi ruining the chronology on a whim

    I don't see the issue. The third is about 17 years older then tsunade. And a even bigger obvious age gap between her and hashi. Any pictures shown of any of them together one way or the other reflect the age differences. Even the pic of the sannin as genin, the third looks like he's in his early 20's. wasn't tsunade like 6 or something at that time? Hashi reminiscing about tsunade as a toddler fits the timeline.
     
         

  7. #107
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    Re: Kishi ruining the chronology on a whim

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirin Rei View Post
    Seriously though, I don't see the problem here.

    First of all we can only guess about Tsunade's age in Hashi's flashback, she could be anywhere from two to four, so that gives us an additional two year span.

    Second of all, even if we consider she's four years old back then, it gives us a two year time span, not less than a year.

    Lastly, it has been nearly a year (give or take) since Naruto returned to the village and do you want me to list the happenings in that short time span?
    The Kazekage dies and is saved by Konoha nin, they battle Akatsuki numerous times, Konoha is attacked, Konoha is destroyed down to the rubble, Pein is defeated, they build Konoha back from scratch, Tsunade is in a coma, Danzo is (temporarily) appointed as Hokage, Danzo dies, Tsunade reclaims her poisition, a Kage summit is held and the biggest war ever is waged.

    Just two days into the war the alliance has fought zombie previous Kage's, bosses, Gin-Kin brothers, sealed the Gin-Kin brothers and is currently battling Madara, Obito and the bloody Juubi and I assure you that this fight won't drag out till nightfall.
    On the other hand, the four previous Hokage's have been zombified by the likes of one sick b*stard named Orochimaru who was supposed to be dead.

    The above paragraph has happened mostly in one day.

    Just because Kishi likes to drag out instances doesn't mean they actually last that long. Every manga we read is about five minutes in Narutoverse, some more, some less. So it's perfectly plausible to consider all that you listed in your post happening in a time frame of two to four years.
    When he draws Hiruzen looking like an early teen, then draw him as a mature man that implies a somewhat significant period of time. I guess we can fit all of the events in that short of a time span but it just doesn't make sense at all. He never implied that the Second had this short of a reign. He never implied that Hiruzen taught the sannin immediately after becoming Hokage. These constant inconsistencies all point towards him not caring that much about the timeline, which is frustrating.

    Besides, we are watching these events happening. He can't just say that the Shinobi slept and continued the next day. But when he's telling us something that happened before the story started it wouldn't be logical for him to cram all these events in such a short period.
     
         
    Last edited by Talal; 02-07-2013 at 12:47 AM.

  8. #108
    Kid Itachi x44jackal44x's Avatar
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    Re: Kishi ruining the chronology on a whim

    Quote Originally Posted by ministerC4 View Post
    Hey the first did give her a gift of a necklace
    WOAH! If the Edo Hokage make it to the battlefield and Hashi sees Naruto wearing it some stuffs bout to go down!
     
         

  9. #109
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    Re: Kishi ruining the chronology on a whim

    Quote Originally Posted by x44jackal44x View Post
    WOAH! If the Edo Hokage make it to the battlefield and Hashi sees Naruto wearing it some stuffs bout to go down!
    The necklace broke a while ago.
     
         

  10. #110
    Kid Itachi x44jackal44x's Avatar
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    Re: Kishi ruining the chronology on a whim

    Quote Originally Posted by Talal View Post
    The necklace broke a while ago.
    *walks to corner of room*
    dunce cap
     
         

  11. #111
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    Re: Kishi ruining the chronology on a whim

    Quote Originally Posted by Sephy100 View Post
    Please explain how it was clear that Tsunade wouldn't have known Hashirama.
    ^this.
     
         

  12. #112
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    Re: Kishi ruining the chronology on a whim

    So much math..
     
         

  13. #113
    The last Sanin Orochimaruofthesound's Avatar
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    Re: Kishi ruining the chronology on a whim

    Its unknown. no one knows the ages of death for the 1st. except kishisama
     
         

  14. #114
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    Re: Kishi ruining the chronology on a whim

    Why do people assume that Tobirama BECAME Hokage AFTER Hashirama died? The current hokage simply has to retire for a new hokage to be appointed. Hiruzen was alive and well when Minato was appointed. The reason I bring this up is, the reign of each hokage is much shorter if they don't serve til death. Which means there's no reason why Tsunade has to be 5 million+ years old for her to have been alive when her grandfather was alive.

    From their chat in the latest chapter, all we know is that Tobirama was STILL Hokage WHEN Hashirama died (because Hashi didn't know about the dealings with the Uchiha).
     
         

  15. #115
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    Re: Kishi ruining the chronology on a whim

    Quote Originally Posted by CloakedDeception View Post
    Why do people assume that Tobirama BECAME Hokage AFTER Hashirama died? The current hokage simply has to retire for a new hokage to be appointed. Hiruzen was alive and well when Minato was appointed. The reason I bring this up is, the reign of each hokage is much shorter if they don't serve til death. Which means there's no reason why Tsunade has to be 5 million+ years old for her to have been alive when her grandfather was alive.

    From their chat in the latest chapter, all we know is that Tobirama was STILL Hokage WHEN Hashirama died (because Hashi didn't know about the dealings with the Uchiha).
    Nicely put
     
         

  16. #116
    The last Sanin Orochimaruofthesound's Avatar
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    Re: Kishi ruining the chronology on a whim

    age and death has proven to have no consequence in this manga
     
         

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    Re: Kishi ruining the chronology on a whim

    Quote Originally Posted by CloakedDeception View Post
    Why do people assume that Tobirama BECAME Hokage AFTER Hashirama died? The current hokage simply has to retire for a new hokage to be appointed. Hiruzen was alive and well when Minato was appointed. The reason I bring this up is, the reign of each hokage is much shorter if they don't serve til death. Which means there's no reason why Tsunade has to be 5 million+ years old for her to have been alive when her grandfather was alive.

    From their chat in the latest chapter, all we know is that Tobirama was STILL Hokage WHEN Hashirama died (because Hashi didn't know about the dealings with the Uchiha).
    read the thread, it's not how old she would have to be, it's the weird aging dynamic in between her and hiruzen
     
         

  18. #118
    Senior Member ~MC117~'s Avatar
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    Re: Kishi ruining the chronology on a whim

    Flashbacks have been shown before of the 2 of them together, even in part 1 I think.
     
         

  19. #119
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    Re: Kishi ruining the chronology on a whim

    Quote Originally Posted by CloakedDeception View Post
    Why do people assume that Tobirama BECAME Hokage AFTER Hashirama died? The current hokage simply has to retire for a new hokage to be appointed. Hiruzen was alive and well when Minato was appointed. The reason I bring this up is, the reign of each hokage is much shorter if they don't serve til death. Which means there's no reason why Tsunade has to be 5 million+ years old for her to have been alive when her grandfather was alive.

    From their chat in the latest chapter, all we know is that Tobirama was STILL Hokage WHEN Hashirama died (because Hashi didn't know about the dealings with the Uchiha).
    "When Hashirama, who was appointed the First Hokage, died, Tobirama was appointed as the Second Hokage." From Kishimoto himself.
     
         

  20. #120
    Senior Member Ero sennin jiraiya's Avatar
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    Re: Kishi ruining the chronology on a whim

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadManWonderLand View Post
    ill let someone else point out how fail your are im soking a cigg and cant be bothered right now

    I'll take the task, though I'm mid cig too -_-


    Quote Originally Posted by ItachiStyle View Post
    Why Kishi, why? It was already clear Tsunade couldn't have known the 1st Hokage, based on the timeline. Now, suddenly she did, so we get a funny joke... doesn't he have staff to point this stuff out to him before he does it?

    After all, the 1st and 2nd Hokage reigned for a not inconsiderable period, so even if the 1st knew her just before his death, and the 2nd reigned the minimal number of years, she's still too old to be a genin under (adult) Saru, with his beard and such. Annoying.
    Well there are pictures of Hiruzen with a beard and his team young, that isn't proof that Tsuande wasn't alive and 2-5 years old when Hashirama died.

    We see the flashback of Hiruzen being appointed Hokage by the second. How long the second reigned, we don't know, but it isn't out of the realm of possibility that it was for a very short period.

    Keeping this in mind, i would guess Hiruzen was a young adult at this time. Perhaps 21 or 22. If this is true and Tobirama only served as hokage for a year or two, it's possible Hashirama could have met his grandaughter while she was very young. (if you look at the picture of her in the latest chapter, it looks like she's like 3.) Obvously when Tsunade was only 3 she wasn't one of Hiruzen's students yet.

    Some people can grow beards as young as 16. Others cant grow beards at all until they are in their mid-twenties. What I'm saying here is a beard isn't really an accurate indication of how old someone is. Hiruzen could have chosen to grow the chin beard a few years after that event, which is why he had it when he is seen with the 3 sannin as his students.


    On Narutowiki it claims that Hashirama appointed his brother second hokage before he died. I'm not using this as undeniable proof, but just bringing it up. Narutowiki isn't always 100% accurate but I don't see it as that unlikely this was the case.

    Either way it is still now manga fact that Hashirama had met his granddaughter. Really I see your timeline problems as quite minimal. we're looking at a 2-3 year discrepancy at the most, which can be explained away anyways.
     
         
    Last edited by Ero sennin jiraiya; 02-07-2013 at 02:31 AM.

  21. #121
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    Re: Kishi ruining the chronology on a whim

    do you remember tsunade's face when she was under sarutobi , it's the same as that in recent manga may be first hokage lived longer until she made chunin. he might have made tobirama hokage soon after the fight with madara
     
         

  22. #122
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    Re: Kishi ruining the chronology on a whim

    Quote Originally Posted by CloakedDeception View Post
    Transformation jutsu. She was already 50 when she was a genin under Sarutobi. Now's she's 100. Plot-no-jutsu: uzumaki immortality...
    if shes 100, then how is jiryaya only like 60 at max? they were all around the same age when the three saninns were in a team.
     
         

  23. #123
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    Re: Kishi ruining the chronology on a whim

    This is a theoritic timeline I made few months ago for my "who Tobi is" thread, I think I can use it here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mante View Post
    Timeline:
    - Consider "Naruto Shippuden Date" as 2000.. Eg: Madara and hashirama fought 80 years ago, so in 1920..got it?
    - some years after hashi vs madara (let's say 24 years) 1st Shinobi world War began in..uh, so in 1944. 2nd Hokage died in this war.
    - Then after 20 years of peace and 2nd War, in 1964. The Sannin (they were 18 years old) fought Hanzo in this war. And Madara gave Nagato rinnegan 2 years ago, so in 1962
    - Inbetween 1967 and 1982: Nagato formed Akatsuki, and Oro joined it
    - In 1982 3rd Shinobi world War, lost Obito, Sasori joined Akatsuki
    - In 1983 Izuna manipulating Mizukage, and Kisame (he was 16) joined Akatsuki
    - In 1984 or 1985 Obito vs. Minato
    - In 1991 Uchiha massacre, Itachi joined Akatsuki and became Oro's Akatsuki partner.
    Correction:
    - the clans war ended in 1920 (say, madara and hashi were 21).
    - After 29 years madara attacked konoha in 1949
    - In 1946 Tsunade was born (3-4 years before hashi's death) and Hiruzen was 17-18 years old
    - In 1952 first shinobi world war and 2nd hokage died.
    - after about 20 years of peace, in 1972 second shinobi world war began, and the sannin (they were 26) fought Hanzo. And Nagato was 12.
    - In between 1979 and 1984 Nagato formed Ataksuki.
    - In 1983 Third war, and Obito joined Madara.
    - In 1984 Yahiko died.
    - In 1984-1985 obito attacked konoha, and Itachi was 7 years old.
    - itachi massacre in 1991 and he was 13.
    - in 2000: Naruto is 16 and Tsunad is 54.

    There you go, timeline fixed >_>'
     
         

  24. #124
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    Re: Kishi ruining the chronology on a whim

    Quote Originally Posted by Mante View Post
    This is a theoritic timeline I made few months ago for my "who Tobi is" thread, I think I can use it here:



    Correction:
    - the clans war ended in 1920 (say, madara and hashi were 21).
    - After 29 years madara attacked konoha in 1949
    - In 1946 Tsunade was born (3-4 years before hashi's death) and Hiruzen was 17-18 years old
    - In 1952 first shinobi world war and 2nd hokage died.
    - after about 20 years of peace, in 1972 second shinobi world war began, and the sannin (they were 26) fought Hanzo. And Nagato was 12.
    - In between 1979 and 1984 Nagato formed Ataksuki.
    - In 1983 Third war, and Obito joined Madara.
    - In 1984 Yahiko died.
    - In 1984-1985 obito attacked konoha, and Itachi was 7 years old.
    - itachi massacre in 1991 and he was 13.
    - in 2000: Naruto is 16 and Tsunad is 54.

    There you go, timeline fixed >_>'
    im pretty sure itatchi was older then 13, he was around 18. obitio didnt attack konoha for a good 3-4 years, so thats wrong too, and yahiko seems a bit off too, but i couldsee how that MAY have been true as he did die young.
     
         

  25. #125
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    Re: Kishi ruining the chronology on a whim

    So many posts that don't read the thread...
    1) inconsistent with Kishi's earlier given timeline in databooks, etc. This is less of an issue, but
    2) it's inconsistent even within the Manga, mainly because of the impossible age dynamic between her and Hiruzen (as was pointed out repeatedly). We're being told a seemingly impossible number of things took place in 3 years...
     
         

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