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  1. #51
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    Re: (DrProof) Tobirama's Resolve

    Quote Originally Posted by SilverSlick View Post
    Haters gon hate. Wankers gon wank. Debators gon debate. Procrastinators gon procrastinate. Potatos gon potate.

    Please, Tobirama is fabulous.
    Tobirama is flawless, but we must debate to not fit in with the fanboys/fangirls.
     
         

  2. #52
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    Re: (DrProof) Tobirama's Resolve

    I say fck everyone one and their moms, tobirama just told sh#t how it was. if they hate him for that than their the douche's,its really nothing but the uchiha queers talking sh#t as usual,because someone just bashed their precious clan,
     
         
    Last edited by enditallsin; 02-06-2013 at 01:26 AM.

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    Re: (DrProof) Tobirama's Resolve

    One could argue that Tobirama acted amorally but I have no doubts about the absence of malice in his course of actions.
     
         

  4. #54
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    Re: (DrProof) Tobirama's Resolve

    Quote Originally Posted by enditallsin View Post
    I say fck everyone one and their moms, tobirama just told sh#t how it was. if they hate him for that than their the douche's,its really nothing but the uchiha queers talking sh#t as usual,because someone just bashed their precious clan,
    Quote Originally Posted by Derp Obito View Post
    One could argue that Tobirama acted amorally but I have no doubts about the absence of malice in his course of actions.
    Agreed.
     
         

  5. #55
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    Re: (DrProof) Tobirama's Resolve

    The best word to describe Tobirama is that he is more than anything a Utilitarian, the genetic predisposition of the Uchihas are a given but he wanted to use that for the greater good, tempering their strong emotions for the benefit of Konoha rather than being a detriment to it.
     
         

  6. #56
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    Re: (DrProof) Tobirama's Resolve

    Quote Originally Posted by drknght View Post
    Well, now you have a big ass war about it. How is that for a great future? There wouldn't be any plans of rebellion, if Tobirama would have been more respectful, and didn't treat Uchihas like a dogs. What was the purpose of slaughtering the innocent people? They didn't do anything wrong. We don't know if they would comprise their own home. Words are just words, only actions matter. I oppose prevention. It's basically treating a person like a complete moron, to tell what will a person do beforehand. Let people do as they please, but when they commit the crime, THEN you punish them, not before.
    Hahaha. What is wrong with you? You do know planning a murder is a crime punishable under law right? If the police discover enough evidence that you're planning a crime, you will be put away.

    Quote Originally Posted by Derp Obito View Post
    The best word to describe Tobirama is that he is more than anything a Utilitarian, the genetic predisposition of the Uchihas are a given but he wanted to use that for the greater good, tempering their strong emotions for the benefit of Konoha rather than being a detriment to it.
    Well you know what they say;"the road to hell is paved with good intentions."
     
         

  7. #57
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    Re: (DrProof) Tobirama's Resolve

    Quote Originally Posted by Derp Obito View Post
    The best word to describe Tobirama is that he is more than anything a Utilitarian, the genetic predisposition of the Uchihas are a given but he wanted to use that for the greater good, tempering their strong emotions for the benefit of Konoha rather than being a detriment to it.
    You kind of backed up my thread perfectly with this post mind if it goes in the OP?
    Quote Originally Posted by TrollingSage View Post
    Hahaha. What is wrong with you? You do know planning a murder is a crime punishable under law right? If the police discover enough evidence that you're planning a crime, you will be put away.


    Well you know what they say;"the road to hell is paved with good intentions."
    Exactly my point, why would you allow someone to do something evil when you know they're going to do it before hand?
     
         

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    Re: (DrProof) Tobirama's Resolve

    Quote Originally Posted by DrProof View Post
    That whole second paragraph goes contradicts to what you said previously.
    It's either you didn't understand what I said or I was not clear enough. So, let me try again. When someone will say to me, for example: "I'm gonna kill your mother" (or any other relative), the first thing you would do, in my situation, I assume, would be to kill him right there as he stands, because there is a chance that he might do it. Because he says he will do it - he actually would do it. You would call it "preventing a murder", I would call it "slaughter of an innocent person". I would kill the man only if he was really attempting to kill my relative. For example, pointing with the gun, or running with the knife near my friend or family member. There is nothing contradicting in what I say.
     
         

  9. #59
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    Re: (DrProof) Tobirama's Resolve

    Quote Originally Posted by drknght View Post
    It's either you didn't understand what I said or I was not clear enough. So, let me try again. When someone will say to me, for example: "I'm gonna kill your mother" (or any other relative), the first thing you would do, in my situation, I assume, would be to kill him right there as he stands, because there is a chance that he might do it. Because he says he will do it - he actually would do it. You would call it "preventing a murder", I would call it "slaughter of an innocent person". I would kill the man only if he was really attempting to kill my relative. For example, pointing with the gun, or running with the knife near my friend or family member. There is nothing contradicting in what I say.
    The thing is, Tobirama didn't kill the Uchiha, he put them in a respected area where their abilities would be most benefited, however yes I'd probably kill/severely injure the person rather they were joking or not as that isn't something you say to someone.
     
         

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    Re: (DrProof) Tobirama's Resolve

    Quote Originally Posted by drknght View Post
    It's either you didn't understand what I said or I was not clear enough. So, let me try again. When someone will say to me, for example: "I'm gonna kill your mother" (or any other relative), the first thing you would do, in my situation, I assume, would be to kill him right there as he stands, because there is a chance that he might do it. Because he says he will do it - he actually would do it. You would call it "preventing a murder", I would call it "slaughter of an innocent person". I would kill the man only if he was really attempting to kill my relative. For example, pointing with the gun, or running with the knife near my friend or family member. There is nothing contradicting in what I say.
    Yea you're right. I wouldnt kill someone who just says he will kill my mother. I will however watch my back around that person, just like Tobirama did.
     
         

  11. #61
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    Re: (DrProof) Tobirama's Resolve

    Quote Originally Posted by Kages View Post
    Nice job
    Quote Originally Posted by Thundercles View Post
    I agree. Tobirama was a realist and did what he had to do and how he saw fit to do it. He was around when these so called "allies" we're enemies. You can't blame him for being so wary of them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ƒālconer View Post
    nice stuff man.
    Thanks guys, and I agree thundercles.
     
         

  12. #62
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    Re: (DrProof) Tobirama's Resolve

    We also have to clearly differentiate perceived discrimination from the actual one, Did the Uchihas suffer a curtailment of their liberties and freedom? No, were they excluded from the privileges and opportunities available to the common Konohan? No, were they treated with partial justice under the jurisprudence of their village law? No, it's one thing for a party to accuse discrimination it's another to actually prove it, unsubstantiated personal feelings of perceived prejudices does not hold water.
     
         
    Last edited by Sir Derp Obito; 02-06-2013 at 02:10 AM.

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    Re: (DrProof) Tobirama's Resolve

    Quote Originally Posted by Derp Obito View Post
    We also have to clearly differentiate perceived discrimination from the actual one, Did the Uchihas suffer a curtailment of their liberties and freedom? No, were they excluded from the privileges and opportunities available to the common Konohan? No, were they treated with partial justice under the jurisprudence of their village law? No, it's one thing for a party to accuse discrimination it's another to actually prove it, unsubstantiated personal feelings of perceived prejudices does not hold water.

    • Were the Uchiha's while being present in Tobirama's era exterminated as many justify as his own fault without such reasoning? No.
    • Was it that of his fault that the Uchiha's infatuation got out of control, to which Madara evil persona withdrew to the surface, producing an outcome to which "Madara's Will" was displayed along the younger Uchiha? No.
    • So what is this constant misconception about Tobirama being discriminate to the Uchiha, and/or displaying fascism coming from? Is this just falsity hoping that others will partake in this illogical ignorance? Please someone help me comprehend such.
     
         

  14. #64
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    Re: (DrProof) Tobirama's Resolve

    Quote Originally Posted by DrProof View Post

    • Were the Uchiha's while being present in Tobirama's era exterminated as many justify as his own fault without such reasoning? No.
    • Was it that of his fault that the Uchiha's infatuation got out of control, to which Madara evil persona withdrew to the surface, producing an outcome to which "Madara's Will" was displayed along the younger Uchiha? No.
    • So what is this constant misconception about Tobirama being discriminate to the Uchiha, and/or displaying fascism coming from? Is this just falsity hoping that others will partake in this illogical ignorance? Please someone help me comprehend such.
    Some seem to be under the assumption that culpability lies in the unforeseeable consequences of the then present policies Tobirama enacted which is plain wrong, culpability by the strict legal and moral definition must be done with purposely, knowingly, negligently and recklessly committing an act or displaying conduct in which it is in Tobirama's acquiescence and conscious object that its' engagement or a result thereof caused the said detriments to the belligerent party like the Uchihas (eg. The Uchiha Massacre, Uchiha Rebellion, etc.) but it is not applicable in Tobirama's case for he acted in good conscience when he enacted such policies.
     
         
    Last edited by Sir Derp Obito; 02-06-2013 at 02:35 AM.

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    Re: (DrProof) Tobirama's Resolve

    Agreed.

    If they just read the chapter correctly, and had some prior knowledge, they would have known that it was Tobirama's assumption that Orochimaru was an immediate threat to Konohagakure that made him act the way he did this chapter: http://narutobase.net/forums/showthread.php?t=317096
     
         
    Last edited by Omnipotent; 02-06-2013 at 02:35 AM.

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    Re: (DrProof) Tobirama's Resolve

    Remember, he who acts in the manner required by the authority of his office that is in being is in a good and reputable disposition, and very far from being a tyrant
     
         

  17. #67
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    Re: (DrProof) Tobirama's Resolve

    Quote Originally Posted by Omnipotent View Post
    Agreed.

    If they just read the chapter correctly, and had some prior knowledge, they would have known that it was Tobirama's assumption that Orochimaru was an immediate threat to Konohagakure that made him act the way he did this chapter: http://narutobase.net/forums/showthread.php?t=317096
    Nice thread, I thanked it as it explains his actions. Well truthfully it justifies his actions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Derp Obito View Post
    Remember, he who acts in the manner required by the authority of his office that is in being is in a good and reputable disposition, and very far from being a tyrant
    Tell the misguided Tobirama haters this.
     
         

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    Re: (DrProof) Tobirama's Resolve

    Tobirama comes off to me as a realist, and his views are clearly not entirely unjustified with guys like Madara and Obito running around.
     
         

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    Re: (DrProof) Tobirama's Resolve

    Quote Originally Posted by DrProof View Post
    Nice thread, I thanked it as it explains his actions. Well truthfully it justifies his actions.
    Thank you :D
     
         

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    Re: (DrProof) Tobirama's Resolve

    Quote Originally Posted by saw2097 View Post
    Tobirama comes off to me as a realist, and his views are clearly not entirely unjustified with guys like Madara and Obito running around.
    Why do you state that his actions aren't entirely justified?
    Quote Originally Posted by Omnipotent View Post
    Thank you :D
    No problem bro, good to see a Tobirama informer around here who actually knows what he's talking about.
     
         

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    Re: (DrProof) Tobirama's Resolve

    Tobirama doesn't care about the village, he just likes to have everything under control. He put the unique Uchiha clan into a "cage", because he was afraid of their power. It was one of the clans that gave rise this village, and they are suppose to be equal as any other citizen? In fact, they are/were much lower. Not everyone in the village was forced to live in one place, not everyone was spied.

    The will of fire went from 1st hokage straight to the 3rd. TOBI THE SECOND didn't have any qualities of a lawful ruler. Hashirama should have invested own time in having own son, so that maybe the junior would get some of his ideas, becoming a better choice for the "throne". When Hiruzen was fighting against Oro to protect the village, he wanted to protect every single one of them. His motivation and the way he spoke about Konoha makes him a reliable person as to protect this village. Hashirama obviously had these feelings too.

    But, not our boy Tobirama. First thing he did was divide society, causing troubleful atmosphere in the village. There is something that must have happened, that made Tobi so hateful towards Uchiha. I don't know what it is, maybe we will soon find out. When they told him that Uchiha went into chaos, almost fighting each other, he was like, meeh it's none of my problem, look at his attitude. That's not the way a real hokage should respond. He should feel responsible for causing the war that is now. For now, Tobirama appears to be the main antagonist of this series. The source of all problems.
     
         
    Last edited by drknght; 02-06-2013 at 03:52 AM.

  22. #72
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    Re: (DrProof) Tobirama's Resolve

    Quote Originally Posted by drknght View Post
    Tobirama doesn't care about the village, he just likes to have everything under control. He put the unique Uchiha clan into a "cage", because he was afraid of their power. It was one of the clans that gave rise this village, and they are suppose to be equal as any other citizen? In fact, they are/were much lower. Not everyone in the village was forced to live in one place, not everyone was spied.

    The will of fire went from 1st hokage straight to the 3rd. TOBI THE SECOND didn't have any qualities of a lawful ruler. Hashirama should have invested own time in having own son, so that maybe the junior would get some of his ideas, becoming a better choice for the "throne". When Hiruzen was fighting against Oro to protect the village, he wanted to protect every single one of them. His motivation and the way he spoke about Konoha makes him a reliable person as to protect this village. Hashirama obviously had these feelings too.

    But, not our boy Tobirama. First thing he did was divide society, causing troubleful atmosphere in the village. There is something that must have happened, that made Tobi so hateful towards Uchiha. I don't know what it is, maybe we will soon find out. When they told him that Uchiha went into chaos, almost fighting each other, he was like, meeh it's none of my problem, look at his attitude. That's not the way a real hokage should respond. He should feel responsible for causing the war that is now. For now, Tobirama appears to be the main antagonist of this series. The source of all problems.
    I woul like to point out:

    1. Giving a clan authority to enforce law upon anyone save the ANBU directly under the Hokage is not a cage. Rather its more authority than any usual Shinobi.
    2. Everyone should be afraid of another Madara, as such people is likely to bring harm to the village and its people.
    3. Actually the most of the spying was done by the Danzo and co. after Kurama attack, also no other clan leader tried to kill Hashirama and brought Kurama to do the job.
    4. Oh yes its totally Tobirama's fault, Madara had no hand in anything. /sarcasm
     
         
    Last edited by Anorien16; 02-06-2013 at 04:26 AM.

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    Re: (DrProof) Tobirama's Resolve

    Quote Originally Posted by Anorien16 View Post
    I woul like to point out:

    1. Giving a clan authority to enforce law upon anyone save the ANBU directly under the Hokage is not a cage. Rather its more authority than any usual Shinobi.
    2. Everyone should be afraid of another Madara, as such people is likely to bring harm to the village and its people.
    3. Actually the most of the spying was done by the Danzo and co. after Kurama attack, also no other clan leader tried to kill Hashirama and brought Kurama to do the job.
    4. Oh yes its totally Tobirama's fault, Madara had no hand in anything.
    1. Of course not. You can call it a semi-cage as you want.
    2. Not everyone is another Madara. That's highly prejudice. Just because Madara was an Uchiha, doesn't mean every Uchiha is like "Madara"
    3. We will find that out, I mean Tobi II put them in one place, he founded ANBU but didn't use them? It sounds suspicious. Almost like not Tobi II.
    4. Do you know anything about slavery in America? There were many black people that wanted to free from the slavery, but there were far too many snitches there. Most of them wanted to live as a slave, because they were not able to think for themselves. Every rebellion sooner or later was to end up quick. Nat Turner's rise up is one of the most renowned. Instead of living on the smaller plantations they rather wanted the bigger ones, where they had more work to do, and much more harsh treatment. But they did it. It's called stupidity. You have to understand Madara. Everyone would get pissed in his position. Still, this is a family problem and should be solved among family members. Hokage should get much involved in here.
     
         

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    Re: (DrProof) Tobirama's Resolve

    Quote Originally Posted by drknght View Post
    It's either you didn't understand what I said or I was not clear enough. So, let me try again. When someone will say to me, for example: "I'm gonna kill your mother" (or any other relative), the first thing you would do, in my situation, I assume, would be to kill him right there as he stands, because there is a chance that he might do it. Because he says he will do it - he actually would do it. You would call it "preventing a murder", I would call it "slaughter of an innocent person". I would kill the man only if he was really attempting to kill my relative. For example, pointing with the gun, or running with the knife near my friend or family member. There is nothing contradicting in what I say.
    flawed logic is flawed. According to your logic, the uchiha are only guilty once they successfully complete the coup d'etat. Once that plan leads to several deaths, but something like that could have been prevented beforehand. That makes you as guilty as the Uchiha. People would ask you "If you knew the uchiha were planning a coup d'etat, why didn't you take measures and stop them" ? It's easy to say someone is wrong after the whole situation goes down, because you are looking at the world from your own lense, a flaw naruto also shares. It's easy to point fingers and say someone is wrong, like naruto sitting on his high horse acting like he's jesus. That's natural for people to point fingers because we don't see the world from a 360 degree angle. We see the world from 90 degress, which is our front view. A flaw which nagato tried to get naruto to learn from. You need to understand people's views, morals & beliefs not just your own. Just because naruto or hashirma say something is wrong does not make it so. Just because they are the leading character archetype in the series(cheerful, want peace, ect) does not make their every decision righteous and brand them the next messiah. That's a flaw I see too much in kishi development of naruto's character. I don't find him relate able anymore, because he's been pegged the next messiah figure. Kishi removed pretty much all of naruto's flaws in favor of a perfect man. Now he has the right to judge people based off his own precepts because he's the chosen one.
     
         

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    Re: (DrProof) Tobirama's Resolve

    Honestly, I'd have to disagree. I find Tobirama's actions towards the Uchiha a bit extreme. Madara had tried to get the Uchiha to betray the Senju and attack them, but every single member of his clan refused. There wasn't a single person willing to follow his will, which should have at least resulted in the Senju trusting the Uchiha a bit better. They had just refused the will of their leader, a testament of the fact that they truly wanted peace, while the believed the Senju would have the dignity to hold up their part of the treaty that they suggested in the first place.

    However, instead of doing as Hashirama suggested,*Tobirama decided to keep on no trusting them, and like we know, isolated them in a corner of the village, giving them the role of police officers. He himself stated that he did this to prevent another Madara from appearing, but that logic is honestly just flawed. Following that logic, the mayor of NY could isolate every German in the city, simply because of the chance that another Hitler might appear. A wise solution would for example have been to secretly have a few of his personal servants, the ANBU, follow the ones that might have seemed likely to follow in Madara's footsteps. Making them police officers may have been a good idea, sure, but just like Orochimaru stated, the officers of the law tend to be disliked by the public.

    So, instead of simply pushing the clan, that he himself stated that was really sensitive and prone to anger and revenge, into a single corner of the village, in order to keep watch on every single member because of something that might happen, he could have simply done his duty as a Hokage, and treated them like actual people. After all, the Hokage's role is to protect all members in his village, but Tobirama's actions towards the Uchiha showed that he was simply biased toward the clan due to their issues in the past, and simply did as he pleased, using his power as Hokage to get a revenge of the people that he had argued with, completely ignoring the treaty and the purpose of the Hokage, which is to love and protect all the village members, not just the ones he likes. Honestly, his actions were more based on racism and paranoia rather than logic.

    And the purpose of Edo Tensei hasn't been confirmed yet, so it can't really be included. Your solution seems quite likely, I'll give you that, but since the purpose hasn't been confirmed, we don't know why he invented it. For all we know he could have been resurrecting some dead whores of the village in order to blow off some steam with them. Not saying it's likely, I'm just saying that we shouldn't assume anything yet.
     
         

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