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  1. #1
    Molten Dragon AGoodBoy's Avatar
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    Possible Plot hole?

    tl;dr how did Orochimaru summon 4th

    During Chunning Exams
    So Orochimaru had his hands sealed. After fighting hiruzen and so he went through the trouble of ripping open the stomach of the demon, in the recent chapters, to release his hands. This also released the souls of the 4 hokages( and possibly kurama). So, A sealed body cannot be edo tensei'd. That's why 1st/2nd couldn't be brought back after they were RDS'd by hiruzen.

    Now, I may be wrong here as I can't read japanese, but during the Orochimaru Vs Hiruzen Fight, the 3rd container had 4th on it. Correct? if not you can stop reading here

    Minato
    During the 9 tails invasion, minato ended the foxes rampage by sealing half of it's chakra with the RDS seal. This means that for 13 years, minato's soul was banished in the reaper fighting with the demon fox.
    Minato's soul was sealed.


    The hole
    If minato sealed away his soul with RDS so long ago, how was orochimaru able to summon him during the chunning exams? How was able to even attempt it? Should it not have been impossible? ORochimaru obviously didn't release minato's soul from the demon because orochimaru would not have been able to get into the uchiha shrine. Futhermore, Orochimaru said that After hiruzen sealed his hands that he went to search for a way to get them back. This does not make sense to me.

    Was this a plothole by kishi, or am i missing something?
     
         

  2. #2
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    Re: Possible Plot hole?

    The fact that Minato was sealed is why Oro's attempt to summon him failed.
     
         

  3. #3
    Senior Member rollin's Avatar
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    Re: Possible Plot hole?

    It explains it intbe manga

    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/520/11
     
         

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    Re: Possible Plot hole?

    ....
    .....
    ......
    .......
    Reread manga
     
         

  5. #5
    ..A Member To Remember.. LBeezy's Avatar
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    Re: Possible Plot hole?

    Maybe the third coffin was Madara Uchiha.. and Hiruzen just assumed it was Minato..


    But idk..

    Juat a thought..
     
         

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    Re: Possible Plot hole?

    Oro tried to summon the 4th during the chunnin exams and failed because he didn't know he was in rds which did summon the 4th except without the soul because it was trapped inside the stomach of the death god hope this helps!
     
         

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    Re: Possible Plot hole?

    Guys he has a point. lol.

    When you think about it, Orochimaru had prepared the Edos before they were stored in the coffin - no? Just like Kabuto demonstrated to Tobi.

    But remember, the Edo Tensei was just revealed back then, so it hadn't developed plot-wise as much.
     
         

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    Re: Possible Plot hole?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mangekyo Muslim View Post
    ....
    .....
    ......
    .......
    Reread manga
    ......
    .......
    .....

    Reread the rules.
     
         

  9. #9
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    Re: Possible Plot hole?

    Quote Originally Posted by rikerslade View Post
    The fact that Minato was sealed is why Oro's attempt to summon him failed.
    ^^^^Yup this is the reason.
     
         

  10. #10
    Molten Dragon AGoodBoy's Avatar
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    Re: Possible Plot hole?

    Quote Originally Posted by rollin View Post
    The fact that Minato was sealed is why Oro's attempt to summon him failed.
    Then i did miss something. But why did kishimoto have hiruzen act as though he stopped the 4ths coffin himself? The coffin was rising. Hiruzen made a hand seal and the coffin started to recede into the ground with hiruzen saying "I did it"




    This makes that manga page seem like a convenience to me to try to bypass this.
     
         

  11. #11
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    Re: Possible Plot hole?

    The 3rd Hokage only thought he prevented the 4th Hokage from being summoned. (As Kabuto stated in the "Edo Tensei" Chapter.)

    we can only speculaite since he don't really know what happened but Orochimaru most likely prepared the Edo Summoned of the 4th Hokage but never used or tried him. because of that, to Orochimaru's surprise he was unable to summon him when the time came.
     
         

  12. #12
    Molten Dragon AGoodBoy's Avatar
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    Re: Possible Plot hole?

    Quote Originally Posted by -S- View Post
    Guys he has a point. lol.

    When you think about it, Orochimaru had prepared the Edos before they were stored in the coffin - no? Just like Kabuto demonstrated to Tobi.

    But remember, the Edo Tensei was just revealed back then, so it hadn't developed plot-wise as much.
    Exactly. Wouldn't it mean that Oro had summoned the 4th before and done all the preparations? Kishi makes it seems like hiruzen actually was the one that stopped it, both manga and anime. Anime shows coffin rising until hiruzen tosses seals. It doesn't try to open or even finish rising, it just goes down.
     
         

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    Senior Member rollin's Avatar
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    Re: Possible Plot hole?

    Quote Originally Posted by AGoodBoy View Post
    Then i did miss something. But why did kishimoto have hiruzen act as though he stopped the 4ths coffin himself? The coffin was rising. Hiruzen made a hand seal and the coffin started to recede into the ground with hiruzen saying "I did it"




    This makes that manga page seem like a convenience to me to try to bypass this.
    In the manga two coffins only came up a third one never came up and went back down like the anime
    What hiruzen said might have been a mistranslation
     
         

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    Re: Possible Plot hole?

    Quote Originally Posted by AGoodBoy View Post
    Exactly. Wouldn't it mean that Oro had summoned the 4th before and done all the preparations? Kishi makes it seems like hiruzen actually was the one that stopped it, both manga and anime. Anime shows coffin rising until hiruzen tosses seals. It doesn't try to open or even finish rising, it just goes down.
    You're absolutely right; good thinking.

    This was back during the early part of the plot, Kishimoto was just building on his storyline. Remember how Gaara didn't form a chakra cloak when he was transforming like the other Jinchuriki? This was because the plot was young and fresh with little development.
     
         

  15. #15
    Molten Dragon AGoodBoy's Avatar
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    Re: Possible Plot hole?

    Quote Originally Posted by -S- View Post
    You're absolutely right; good thinking.

    This was back during the early part of the plot, Kishimoto was just building on his storyline. Remember how Gaara didn't form a chakra cloak when he was transforming like the other Jinchuriki? This was because the plot was young and fresh with little development.
    Yes I noticed that too. Also gaara didn't have bijuudama. Kishi seems to have changed his mind alot in shippuuden and is trying to weasle in explanations.

    In the manga two coffins only came up a third one never came up and went back down like the anime
    What hiruzen said might have been a mistranslation
    Then how do you explain the 'three' in the page? Doesn't that already mean that a third coffin was most likely seen coming up? It means that a 3rd coffin was coming up. Kishi probably ommited it because he didn't want to waste a panel.
     
         

  16. #16
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    Re: Possible Plot hole?

    Still pretty reckless of Orochimaru to use a technique he hadn't tried before. Most likely Kishi didn't want to commit to Minato's character or abilities yet.
     
         

  17. #17
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    Re: Possible Plot hole?

    A true fan does not look for reasons why the story may not work. A true fan looks for reasons why the parts that are iffy could work. This way, the true fan tries to build up the story and make it work the way it is.

    With that said, the only people who said the final coffin was Minato, if I'm correct, were Hiruzen and Kabuto. Now, if Orochimaru had prepared his summons before-hand, then he may have done it while Kabuto was around, though I wouldn't think so; if Kabuto wasn't around when Oro prepared his summons, than neither of the people who claimed it was Minato knew for sure. Also, in the panels you provided, it is said that "The third one ... it did not work." Weather it was Hiruzen or Orochimaru who said this, I'm not sure, though it was probably Hiruzen (though Oro may have had the same thought). As you can see the two coffins that did "work" are covered in shuriken, and yet they still open. Honestly, I don't care what happened in the anime, but in the manga there appears to be (by the panels you provided) no sign of the third coffin; for all we know, Oro could have made a handseal he had done for the first two and Hiruzen was expected a third coffin. And Hiruzen's idea that he stopped the third one is just his interpretation; he was fairly certain that Orochimaru would not make a mistake, as he was an intelligent, though mad, man, and therefore the logical answer was that Hiruzen himself did something. Though now we know that Orochimaru did, in fact, make a mistake when preparing his jutsu.

    Now, as I said before, a true fan looks for ways to make what seems off, right again. So, what is very possible is that Orochimaru sealed the three coffins away and prepared the bodies of his corpses within each of the coffins, along with the DNA of the three Hokage he wished to resurrect. Then, as Orochimaru summoned the coffins, he performed Edo Tensei at the same time, thus turning his victims into the Hokage as they were summoned, and thus the fourth's coffin not working because of the last-minute summon. Now, this makes sense for the main reason that Orochimaru is seen placing the controlling tags within each of the Hokage's heads after they were summoned to the field; had he Edo'd them before-hand, he would have either done it at the time of summoning, or the Hokage would have broken out of the coffins and done as they pleased, most likely killing Orochimaru as he attempted to control him and do evil with the 2nd's technique.

    Now, assuming that it is correct that Orochimaru knew that he couldn't summon Minato, and everyone simply assumed it was him, then we can go back to the fact that it is most logical that Edo Tensei was performed on the rooftop, and not beforehand, and therefore no one except for Orochimaru knows exactly who Oro was going to summon, nor that it matters anymore because it was stopped by Hiruzen (remember, only if we are to assume that Oro knew what he was doing, didn't summon the fourth, and Hiruzen did, in fact, stop it out of his own power).
     
         

  18. #18
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    Re: Possible Plot hole?

    He couldn't summon minato, the coffin stopped halfway
    And Oro voided Hiruzen hand sealing back at the end of part 1
     
         

  19. #19
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    Re: Possible Plot hole?

    Quote Originally Posted by AGoodBoy View Post
    tl;dr how did Orochimaru summon 4th

    During Chunning Exams
    So Orochimaru had his hands sealed. After fighting hiruzen and so he went through the trouble of ripping open the stomach of the demon, in the recent chapters, to release his hands. This also released the souls of the 4 hokages( and possibly kurama). So, A sealed body cannot be edo tensei'd. That's why 1st/2nd couldn't be brought back after they were RDS'd by hiruzen.

    Now, I may be wrong here as I can't read japanese, but during the Orochimaru Vs Hiruzen Fight, the 3rd container had 4th on it. Correct? if not you can stop reading here

    Minato
    During the 9 tails invasion, minato ended the foxes rampage by sealing half of it's chakra with the RDS seal. This means that for 13 years, minato's soul was banished in the reaper fighting with the demon fox.
    Minato's soul was sealed.


    The hole
    If minato sealed away his soul with RDS so long ago, how was orochimaru able to summon him during the chunning exams? How was able to even attempt it? Should it not have been impossible? ORochimaru obviously didn't release minato's soul from the demon because orochimaru would not have been able to get into the uchiha shrine. Futhermore, Orochimaru said that After hiruzen sealed his hands that he went to search for a way to get them back. This does not make sense to me.

    Was this a plothole by kishi, or am i missing something?
    The one thing that most people do not know, is that he was never supposed be be summoned.
    This was only done in the anime. Orochimaru never tried to summon the fourth in the original manga.

    It was a mistake from the animator's end.
     
         

  20. #20
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    Re: Possible Plot hole?

    Quote Originally Posted by AGoodBoy View Post
    Then i did miss something. But why did kishimoto have hiruzen act as though he stopped the 4ths coffin himself? The coffin was rising. Hiruzen made a hand seal and the coffin started to recede into the ground with hiruzen saying "I did it"




    This makes that manga page seem like a convenience to me to try to bypass this.
    No the coffin did not rise. It didn't even begin to rise. The anime screwed that up.
     
         

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