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  1. #1
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    EMS Madara isn't far behind Hashirama in power[Please read first]

    Hello,
    I saw many threades stating "Hashirama> Madara by huge marginess" or "Madara is fodder to Hashi" created after the latest chapter came out.

    before I will go to back up statement of my thread, I want to say that I am not Uchiha fan or troll. I accept statment that Hashirama in prime age(excluding sage mode) >=Madara in prime age and Senjuu>Uchiha.

    After short introduction I would like to go straight into my reasons, why "EMS Madara isn't far behind Hashirama in power".

    First fact is in latest chapter Madara has just accquired Eternal Mangenkyou sharingan, so couldn't use EMS's full power and surely he wasn't skilled with it just yet.

    prove:



    Above picture show us Madara who has just accquired EMS and fought Hashirama. Madara only use full skeleton form of Sussano, so he didn't has expierience with it, surely MS Madara could use Complete Sussano.



    and this picture above show Madara with mastered EMS against Hashirama.

    It simply show us that you have to train EMS to master it's powers, it will be same with Sasuke.


    The fact alone that Madara was able to fight for twenty fours hours still against Hashirama should be prove to it. Obviously you can say that Madara fought with killing itent where Hashirama was not, but it is assumption.

    Morever fight itself wasn't shown to us, readers. We can't know who has upper hand, how long and by how much or maybe once Madara had upper hand then Hashirama had and it could repeat, obviously it is assumption. If you look again into manga chapter 624, then as Madara is lying on ground near Hashirama, there is Tobirama and more Senjuu clan members. Tobirama has dirt on his clothes and he even shouted that it was chance for them to kill Madara, if he was sure that Hashirama, his older brother could deal with Madara easily then he wouldn't say that.

    In my opinion it could go like that:
    EMS Madara(chapter 624)=80% base Hashirama(excluding Sage mode if he had already)
    EMS Madara + Kyuubi(vote)=150% base Hashirama(excluding Sage mode),
    Sage mode Hashirama=200% Hashirama

    so maybe: EMS Madara(vote)=base Hashirama

    I think base Hashirama was slightly stronger than EMS Madara or even equal but he has too much amount of chakra so simply could outlast Madara whenever he fought him.

    prove for EMS Madara + Kyuubi>base Hashirama:



    , Hashi was going into sage mode so couldn't he defeat Madara + Kurama without it


    Conclusion: I think EMS Madara was slightly weaker than Hashirama in Chapter 624, probably Hashirama was slightly stronger then Madara or simply has much more bigger amount of chakra, so he outlast Madara simply.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I would like to talk about Izuna and Tobirama too, I know that Tobirama is supperior to Izuna but question is how much...

    Remeber that Senjuu are famous from having the biggest amount of chakra, so maybe Izuna use his MS offscreen and Tobirama countered all his powers, but couldn't win too, until Izuna used almost all his chakra, so Tobirama could kill him, so he would simply outlast him, we don't know how long battle lasted, it maybe be assumption but it would make sense.

    IMO: Izuna=80% Tobirama, or maybe higher

    Again Tobirama use Space Time Ninjutsu, maybe he has just invented it so Izuna has no intel on it and understimated Tobirama but still it is no exccuse for experienced Uchiha warrior for loose. I think Tobirama could even kill MS Madara by suprise. EMS Madara could be out of his league although he would kill him if he distracted Madara and then used Space Time Ninjutsu, but Madara would be to smart to fal for it.


    IMO: Sage mode Hashirama>EMS Madara + Kyuubi>Base Hashirama>=EMS Madara>Tobirama>=Izuna

    I hope you get what i meant

    Sorry for my mistakes but english is not my first language ;/

    Do you agree or not ?, if you disagree then explain why
     
         
    Last edited by KCMNaruto; 03-20-2013 at 10:29 PM.

  2. #2
    Simple Logic TheCloudsBlackLightning's Avatar
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    Re: EMS Madara isn't far behind Hashirama in power[Please read first]

    In the end Hashirama>/=EMS Madara+Kyuubi. The two of them are almost equals. The last chapter doesnt change that.
     
         

  3. #3
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    Re: EMS Madara isn't far behind Hashirama in power[Please read first]

    Agreed, everyone plus in the latest chapter wasn't Tobirama helping? Whatever though, haters can hate. I agree Hashi > Mad but it's definately not easy.
     
         

  4. #4
    Senior Member muutobirama3rdraikagemizu's Avatar
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    SHISHUI IS UNDARRATED
     

    Re: EMS Madara isn't far behind Hashirama in power[Please read first]

    hashirama has several biju, wood golem, 1000 hands ems madara has 9 tails, hashirama would win


    current madara is a different story, both are my top 2 and 3 characters so IDGAF
     
         

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    Re: EMS Madara isn't far behind Hashirama in power[Please read first]

    doesn't matter, madara still behind hashirama
     
         

  6. #6
    Senior Member KCMNaruto's Avatar
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    Re: EMS Madara isn't far behind Hashirama in power[Please read first]

    Quote Originally Posted by muutobirama3rdraikagemizu View Post
    hashirama has several biju, wood golem, 1000 hands ems madara has 9 tails, hashirama would win


    current madara is a different story, both are my top 2 and 3 characters so IDGAF
    You are right, and I agree with Hashirama>Madara, although i think base Hashirama>=EMS Madara. However I think power difference between of them is small, they are closer to each other than people think.
     
         

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    Re: EMS Madara isn't far behind Hashirama in power[Please read first]

    "surely MS Madara could use Complete Sussano."
    Uhhh... Don't you need Rinnegan to summon Perfect Susano'o?
     
         

  8. #8
    Senior Member KCMNaruto's Avatar
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    Re: EMS Madara isn't far behind Hashirama in power[Please read first]

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefHermit View Post
    doesn't matter, madara still behind hashirama
    No it does matter, but yeah Madara was still behind Hashirama but not far behind him. There is small difference between them, obviously excluding Sage mode for Hashirama, because if I had to include Sage mode for Hashirama and EMS Madara without Kyuubi then it would be like that:

    Sage Hashirama >> EMS Madara or even Sage Hashirama >>> EMS Madara
     
         
    Last edited by KCMNaruto; 03-21-2013 at 08:12 AM.

  9. #9
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    Re: EMS Madara isn't far behind Hashirama in power[Please read first]

    Quote Originally Posted by muutobirama3rdraikagemizu View Post
    hashirama has several biju, wood golem, 1000 hands ems madara has 9 tails, hashirama would win


    current madara is a different story, both are my top 2 and 3 characters so IDGAF
    I dont understand you earlier u said juubi is uchiha power now u getting hurt bcoz hashi controlled all bijuus lol

    in the fight i dont seen any bijuu helping hashi n wood dragon is his jutsu its 1 vs 2 but madara still got beaten

    however i do agree current madara > hashi ( bcoz hashi dna n motukun )
     
         

  10. #10
    Senior Member KCMNaruto's Avatar
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    Re: EMS Madara isn't far behind Hashirama in power[Please read first]

    Quote Originally Posted by HashiramasStrongerCousin1 View Post
    "surely MS Madara could use Complete Sussano."
    Uhhh... Don't you need Rinnegan to summon Perfect Susano'o?
    No, Complete Sussano is what sussano with armor completly cloaked and Perfect Sussano is even higher version.

    I could look up for scans, but I don't have time for that now ;/

    Anyway, please read Naruto manga chapter 620, where in the end Madara use Perfect Sussano unstable form to protect himself from bijuu dama of Kyuubi and in chapter 621, you can see Madara Perfect Sussano unstable form cloaked around Kyuubi
     
         

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    Re: EMS Madara isn't far behind Hashirama in power[Please read first]

    I agree. If the power difference was so great they wouldn't be rivals. There is no rivalry between the hammer and nail. If hashi was way stronger he would have finished him during one of their earlier battles.
     
         

  12. #12
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    Re: EMS Madara isn't far behind Hashirama in power[Please read first]

    As far as the story goes, madara and hashirama were talked of as equals, so yes, madara was only slightly inferior, but not by such a large degree that hashirama could win without going all out.
     
         

  13. #13
    Senior Member thegame's Avatar
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    Re: EMS Madara isn't far behind Hashirama in power[Please read first]

    What a long thread for mere assumptions, and here I thought someone had it all figured out...

    That said I do agree with the assumptions, they are/were about equals all the time, even in the ending fight they were almost equal. There is no Madara << Hashirama.. In the end Madara had Kurama as part of his power. People just neglect that, but it's alpha omega to understand that his "change" is not an improvement in EMS control. His true improvement, is because he learned, how to control Kurama, and how to combine it with his EMS i.e. Susanoo. But of course Hashi improved as well with Sage mode.
     
         

  14. #14
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    Re: EMS Madara isn't far behind Hashirama in power[Please read first]

    Madara didn't need training to use ems because ems is an upgrated version of the ms user. Thought the manga clear this out already that even with ems madara was very inferior to hashi and madara said it a lot of time that the shinobi world call hashi the strongest ninja wasn't that clear to you.
     
         

  15. #15
    Senior Member KCMNaruto's Avatar
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    Re: EMS Madara isn't far behind Hashirama in power[Please read first]

    Quote Originally Posted by blackstar9 View Post
    I agree. If the power difference was so great they wouldn't be rivals. There is no rivalry between the hammer and nail. If hashi was way stronger he would have finished him during one of their earlier battles.
    I have same thoughts
     
         

  16. #16
    Senior Member KCMNaruto's Avatar
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    Re: EMS Madara isn't far behind Hashirama in power[Please read first]

    Quote Originally Posted by thegame View Post
    What a long thread for mere assumptions, and here I thought someone had it all figured out...

    That said I do agree with the assumptions, they are/were about equals all the time, even in the ending fight they were almost equal. There is no Madara << Hashirama.. In the end Madara had Kurama as part of his power. People just neglect that, but it's alpha omega to understand that his "change" is not an improvement in EMS control. His true improvement, is because he learned, how to control Kurama, and how to combine it with his EMS i.e. Susanoo. But of course Hashi improved as well with Sage mode.
    You are right , so in the end you agree with me.

    Prove is Hashirama without sage mode couldn't defeat Madara in vote battle, but again Madara has Kyuubi in battle.

    IMO: Sage Hashirama>=EMS Madara(vote) + Kyuubi>>Base Hashirama>=EMS Madara(vote)>EMS Madara(624 chapter)

    you are right with saying Madara has Kurama as part of his power, but I think he mastered use of his EMS, maybe it is wrong but for now manga doesn't deny that possibility.
     
         
    Last edited by KCMNaruto; 03-21-2013 at 08:14 AM.

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    Re: EMS Madara isn't far behind Hashirama in power[Please read first]

    Quote Originally Posted by KCMNaruto View Post
    You are right , so in the end you agree with me.

    Prove is Hashirama without sage mode couldn't defeat Madara in vote battle, but again Madara has Kyuubi in battle.

    IMO: Sage Hashirama>=EMS Madara + Kyuubi>>Base Hashirama>=EMS Madara(vote)>EMS Madara(624 chapter)

    you are right with saying Madara has Kurama as part of his power, but I think he mastered use of his EMS, maybe it is wrong but for now manga doesn't deny that possibility.
    It's not like "mastering" EMS/MS techniques take long for a genius. Take Sasuke or Obito (a none genius even) for instance. It's more about experience with how you use it, but even that Sasuke mastered in his 2nd battle with MS... Madara was fighting 24/7 so he could easily get experience and train his eyes. Well maybe Madara just isn't as talented as Sasuke =)
    But yeah I agree with most.
     
         

  18. #18
    Senior Member KCMNaruto's Avatar
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    Re: EMS Madara isn't far behind Hashirama in power[Please read first]

    Quote Originally Posted by cmilius View Post
    Madara didn't need training to use ems because ems is an upgrated version of the ms user. Thought the manga clear this out already that even with ems madara was very inferior to hashi and madara said it a lot of time that the shinobi world call hashi the strongest ninja wasn't that clear to you.
    I disagree, first Manga doesn't deny possibility of training to improve use of EMS. It could make sense for Sasuke to not show full power of EMS, until he train and improve use of it.

    Please show me scans where manga states that you can use full power of EMS after accquired it without any training to use it better. Why then did Madara leave Konoha for quite some time? Obviously you can say that it was to search Kurama and learn to control it, but I think he wanted to unleash full power of EMS too, so he needed to improve use of it.

    Show me scans where Madara admit that he is very inferior to hashirama, or Hashirama saying that Madara is very inferior to him, I am waiting.

    Last your sentence lol, If Hashirama was even stronger than Madara by small margin then Hashirama still should be the strongest shinobi, and Madara could still call him, his supperior. If what you said is true then Madara wouldn't have some many clashes with Hashirama, or he couldn't fought against Hashirama for 24 hours straight, it only show that I am closer to be right. I could even go that far and say that Hashirama=Madara, but Hashirama amount of chakra>>Madara amount of chakra, he could simply outlast madara in chakra amount.

    I won't try to convince by force that I am right, you are free to believe what you want, but please consider it that we didn't see any battle from begining to end, so we can't say what jutsu they used, who had upperhand and how long, it is simply our assumption. I hope you get what I mean
     
         
    Last edited by KCMNaruto; 03-21-2013 at 08:14 AM.

  19. #19
    Senior Member KCMNaruto's Avatar
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    Re: EMS Madara isn't far behind Hashirama in power[Please read first]

    Quote Originally Posted by thegame View Post
    It's not like "mastering" EMS/MS techniques take long for a genius. Take Sasuke or Obito (a none genius even) for instance. It's more about experience with how you use it, but even that Sasuke mastered in his 2nd battle with MS... Madara was fighting 24/7 so he could easily get experience and train his eyes. Well maybe Madara just isn't as talented as Sasuke =)
    But yeah I agree with most.
    Yeah I agree with you. Although maybe Madara's eyes had simply more potential in them than Itachi's eyes, Obito's eyes and Sasuke's eyes. We don't know it, it could be that mastering EMS is much more difficult and longer process than mastering MS, remember that we have only two Uchiha with EMS so far. Sasuke didn't even use it a lot, only once against Kabuto but Kishi wanted to show off Itachi then. Maybe Madara was blinded by hate so he couldn't use EMS well instead fought without focusing. I know it sounds now as exccuse I give Madara now, but we can't deny that possibility.

    Another prove would be why did Obito want Sasuke to stay in his base ?, I know he said: "you have to need for your eyes to recover" or something like that.

    Maybe merging process of EMS require some time to perfectly merge them into EMS design, reaching full power. Maybe Madara simply didn't know it back then and after accquiring EMS, he simply rushed to battle Hashirama, didn't give time for his eyes to perfectly merge and reach it full power, i think it would make sense.

    Even Sasuke said: "I feel Itachi power flowing into my eyes, I get stronger and stronger", or something like that, could it be that Izuna power was still flowing into Madara's eys and he become stronger and stronger, but when he fought Hashirama, this process slow down or stopped.

    Then Madara left Konoha to reach full power of EMS, then search for Kyuubi and attack Hashirama in vote battle.

    Sometimes I wonder if full potential of EMS is possibilty to use all MS jutsu can users have(Kamui, amaterasu, Tsyukomii, Kotoamatsukomi, Sussano), it would be badass.

    LOL as Madara wasn't as talented as Sasuke,
    IMO: Madara's talent=Itachi's talent>Sasuke's talent, but
    Madara's eyes>Sasuke'eyes>=Itachi's eyes
     
         
    Last edited by KCMNaruto; 03-21-2013 at 08:34 AM.

  20. #20
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    Re: EMS Madara isn't far behind Hashirama in power[Please read first]

    Hashirama was stronger than Madara as a child and stronger than him as an adult.

    In the end Tobirama is arguably stronger than Madara aswell.
     
         

  21. #21
    Senior Member KCMNaruto's Avatar
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    Re: EMS Madara isn't far behind Hashirama in power[Please read first]

    Quote Originally Posted by tethian View Post
    Hashirama was stronger than Madara as a child and stronger than him as an adult.

    In the end Tobirama is arguably stronger than Madara aswell.
    Wow, are you really feel good now ? Yeah Hashirama is stronger than Madara but by small gap

    and If you talk about MS Madara, then maybe Tobirama would be equal to MS Madara

    but not in hell Tobirama could be equal to EMS Madara, don't even speaking that Tobirama > EMS Madara, someone has to have problems with his mind to say that.

    IMO: it is simply as that:

    Sage Hashirama>= EMS Madara + Kurama>>Base Hashirama>=EMS Madara>>MS Madara>=Tobirama>=MS Izuna
     
         

  22. #22
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    Re: EMS Madara isn't far behind Hashirama in power[Please read first]

    Quote Originally Posted by tethian View Post
    Hashirama was stronger than Madara as a child and stronger than him as an adult.

    In the end Tobirama is arguably stronger than Madara aswell.
    good one lmao no tobirama is not.
     
         

  23. #23
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    Re: EMS Madara isn't far behind Hashirama in power[Please read first]

    Interesting view

    although saying Madara's talent in his eyes are above sasuke's and itachi's i dont know

    particularly Sasuke, its set in the story for Sasuke to overtake his predecessors the same as Naruto will

    Sasuke is the ultimate genius from the Uchiha, remember Madara grew up in war Sasuke in peace, you can argue they both lost and felt pain, but Madara's was greater as he lived in a time, where there was no end to it,

    Madara simply progressed alot faster because of it, and Tobirama's revelations about the Uchiha becoming overpowered due to loss and pain makes perfect sense to what a overkill of a warrior madara became
     
         

  24. #24
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    Re: EMS Madara isn't far behind Hashirama in power[Please read first]

    Quote Originally Posted by KCMNaruto View Post
    Yeah I agree with you. Although maybe Madara's eyes had simply more potential in them than Itachi's eyes, Obito's eyes and Sasuke's eyes. We don't know it, it could be that mastering EMS is much more difficult and longer process than mastering MS, remember that we have only two Uchiha with EMS so far. Sasuke didn't even use it a lot, only once against Kabuto but Kishi wanted to show off Itachi then. Maybe Madara was blinded by hate so he couldn't use EMS well instead fought without focusing. I know it sounds now as exccuse I give Madara now, but we can't deny that possibility.

    Another prove would be why did Obito want Sasuke to stay in his base ?, I know he said: "you have to need for your eyes to recover" or something like that.

    Maybe merging process of EMS require some time to perfectly merge them into EMS design, reaching full power. Maybe Madara simply didn't know it back then and after accquiring EMS, he simply rushed to battle Hashirama, didn't give time for his eyes to perfectly merge and reach it full power, i think it would make sense.

    Even Sasuke said: "I feel Itachi power flowing into my eyes, I get stronger and stronger", or something like that, could it be that Izuna power was still flowing into Madara's eys and he become stronger and stronger, but when he fought Hashirama, this process slow down or stopped.

    Then Madara left Konoha to reach full power of EMS, then search for Kyuubi and attack Hashirama in vote battle.

    Sometimes I wonder if full potential of EMS is possibilty to use all MS jutsu can users have(Kamui, amaterasu, Tsyukomii, Kotoamatsukomi, Sussano), it would be badass.

    LOL as Madara wasn't as talented as Sasuke,
    IMO: Madara's talent=Itachi's talent>Sasuke's talent, but
    Madara's eyes>Sasuke'eyes>=Itachi's eyes
    I do, however, doubt that EMS could ever lead to more MS techniques, that would not make sense. To me it seems obvious that the only way to make EMS, is by merging 2 pair of eyes, with the same MS techs, which is why it usually has to be someone closely related to you, like your brother. The rare occurrence of 2 people with similar MS techs, but not being siblings or parent/son perhaps, could probably occur, but the odds are low.

    I think Sasuke has most talent of all in the series. I know Itachi was a lot smarter, his knowledge exceeds all as stated by Hiruzen, however, which is also why, he was able to develop such extremely powerful genjutsu. However, Sasuke is superior in developing ninjutsu. No shinobi in the series has proven such ability in creating/using ninjutsu in such a short time as Sasuke has. He may not be a master in using genjutsu, but he is a master at countering it. I think this is undeniable, and I am an Itachi fan, and actually I dislike Sasuke, but it's the way I see it in the manga. Just the way he learned chidori in such short time. Mastering 2 types of chakra at that age, well..
     
         

  25. #25
    #TH Akatsuki Mosque's Avatar
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    Amen sis
     

    Re: EMS Madara isn't far behind Hashirama in power[Please read first]

    I agree too; the only reason some people like their favorite characters is their power levels, that's why thay freak out if they see one of them getting defeated; no matter whatever the situation and reasons are, they just ignore and look at the basic outcomes, saying defeated one=fodder is just illogical, the fights and power levels are not that simple.
     
         

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