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  1. #1
    Senior Member psukkar's Avatar
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    How did the 1st Hokage defeated Uchiha Madara?

    There's a lot mystery regarding this fight, so I just thought I'd share my thoughts on this fight.

    A DETAILED flashback is required to know how this fight went down. I think a movie on this these two clans would BE PREFECT.

    There are few things I noticed about this battle and the pages leading up to the page we saw (Madara x Fox) vs Hashirama.

    The thing I wondered about this fight is why did Madara even summon/call the fox to the fight?

    Based from the flashback pages it was made as through Madara and Hashirama were near equals and they have fought many times. So if in fact they were rivals in terms of power that would explain why they survived the many encounters they fought.

    So I reenacted how I think the fight went down.

    Madara as a last ditch effort fought Hashirama with the EMS for the first time.

    He somehow was losing the fight most likely due to Hashirama's stamina as he inherited his body's perfection from the So6P AND his VAST knowledge of techniques(The Third hokage actually talks a little about this at very start of the manga).

    So to try and win the fight even after the element of surprise (EMS) failed he called/summoned the Fox. Now I believe at this point it was a fight between Hashirama and the nine tails as Madara surely would have been exhausted by then.

    For those who don't understand how I came up the conclusion how Hashirama hasn't seen the EMS before this fight was from the order of events shown in the manga.
    1) It was first shown Madara and Hashirama have fought many times.
    2) Madara mentions the fights with Hashirama got him famous and the Uchiha clan's enemies grew from the encounters with the Senju clan. So Madara took he's brothers eyes to obtain EMS for the clan's protection or for himself, either case it doesn't matter.
    3) The Senju clan made a truce, and the Uchiha accepted.
    4) Hashirama becomes the the First hokage.
    5) Madara revolts and challenges(THE FIGHT) Hashirama for the leaf village position.

    He can't have had EMS before he took his brother's eyes(2).
    Although they could have fought before the truce(3) and after he took his brother's eyes(2).
    Also when Madara stated Hashirama gave away the bujj as peace offerings to the other villages he was shown to be wearing the Hokage gown. So this only could have happened after he became hokage(4) and either BEFORE OR AFTER the fight with Madara(5). ONLY A DETAILED FLASHBACK/GAIDEN/MOVIE CAN TELL US FOR SURE when these events actually happened.

    But the most amazing thing you could say from this fight is HOW THE **** did Hashirama subdue the FOX. Now I know a lot of you are gonna say "but Hashirama could control the bujj" but Madara already was manipulating the Fox to do his biding so Hashirama would have had to attack Madara, stop him then suppress the Fox. The reason I think Hashirama would had to deal with Madara first then the fox is because of this. When the fox was under the hypnotic control from the sharingan, I was assuming Hashirama would suppress the fox's chakra like how yamato did for Naruto in 4 tail mode. But this would not stop the mind control from the sharingan would it. From the recent chapter(490) we found out the fox has his power split up into two, mind and chakra. The sharingan would control the mind portion and therefore order the fox around, while Hashirama would only suppress the chakra part. So for Hashirama to get rid of the fox completely from the battlefield he would have had to stop the mind control from Madara by attacking Madara, then he be able to get rid of the fox from the battlefield.

    So to sum up the fight, it when like this;

    1) Madara (EMS) vs Hashirama ... Madara then says oh shit hes still wining.
    2) Madara controls Fox vs Hashirama .... Hashirama SOMEHOW subdues the fox.
    3) Hashirama knocks out Madara to stop the link between Madara and the fox.
    4) Hashirama suppresses the Fox, Fox leaves.
    5) Hashirama somehow with his bullshit stamina lands the final blows to an already exhausted Madara.
    6) Hashirama believes Madara is dead and SOMEHOW more bullshit occurs where Madara survived the WHOLE ORDEAL.

    The other theory popping around this fight is that Hashirama used bujjs himself and would certainly complain lot. But I'm not really convinced Hashirama used any at all. When Madara was talking about this fight(to Sasuke) and about Hashirama's abilities he would have mentioned he used multiple tailed beasts against him. There's no reason for Madara to hold back on the truth like that, it would only make him look A LOT weaker compared to Hashirama. The whole reason he wanted to go against the leaf village was to prove to the world the Uchiha were equals with the Senju(As Hashirama was chosen to be Hokage) and by lying like that it would stand against his principles and beliefs back then. Madara also said Hashirama was the only person he admired, so by saying Hashirama simply used multiple bujjs to defeat him would take away from Hashirama's stature as a shinobi. So basically he could have just have easily said Hashirama used multiple tailed beasts and no one would known the truth anyway. But he didn't.

    Here are other scary notions of what Hashirama had to deal with, the Fox had hes FULL powers this was before the Forth sealed half of the Fox's chakra and we all know what 6-8 tails can do from Naruto. Also as stated by Itachi when you gain EMS you get a NEW technique. And based from the sharingan techniques we've seen already it's most likely another bullshit technique. Pretty astounding stuff.

    Again please remember this is just SPECULATION. Thanks to the recent information about the fox I was able to think up of decent reenactment of the fight.
     
         
    Last edited by psukkar; 04-14-2010 at 09:22 AM.

  2. #2
    Wretched Insanity ☣ minatoxkushina's Avatar
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    Re: How did the 1st Hokage defeated Uchiha Madara?

    I thought that was a good theory
    "Madara then says oh Shit" aha nice
     
         

  3. #3
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    Re: How did the 1st Hokage defeated Uchiha Madara?

    I think the sharingan controls using his eyes than suppression. Also as I'm aware of Madara only gained only one new MS ability with EMS so Hashirama expected Madara to use all 3 MS jutsu. Maybe that jutsu isn't like the others 3 maybe that how Hashirama won if he counter all 3MS jutsu and fought him like it was in another fights but the final jutsu saved his life.
     
         

  4. #4
    Senior Member Dean-Winchester's Avatar
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    Re: How did the 1st Hokage defeated Uchiha Madara?

    Quote Originally Posted by niblack89 View Post
    I think the sharingan controls using his eyes than suppression. Also as I'm aware of Madara only gained only one new MS ability with EMS so Hashirama expected Madara to use all 3 MS jutsu. Maybe that jutsu isn't like the others 3 maybe that how Hashirama won if he counter all 3MS jutsu and fought him like it was in another fights but the final jutsu saved his life.
    What if hashirmia senju had big time s rank jutsu that matched sussano
    tsukiyomi
    amaretsu
     
         

  5. #5
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    Re: How did the 1st Hokage defeated Uchiha Madara?

    nice, its a long one
     
         

  6. #6
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    Re: How did the 1st Hokage defeated Uchiha Madara?

    Quote Originally Posted by Castiel View Post
    What if hashirmia senju had big time s rank jutsu that matched sussano
    tsukiyomi
    amaretsu
    I mean his brother messed with forbidden jutsu that could bring back the dead. I think he messed with forbidden jutsu also why is he the only senju in history that could control wood, The wood element is only ever associated with Hashirama and never associated as a senju blood inheritance like the sharingan is to Uchiha.

    It seems like forbidden jutsu wasn't taboo back then. Seeing how Mandara and Izuna killed their best friends to achieve MS and were given the leaders of the Uchiha clan. Tobirama brought back the dead and was titled hokage.
     
         

  7. #7
    anonymous leenox's Avatar
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    Re: How did the 1st Hokage defeated Uchiha Madara?

    Quote Originally Posted by Castiel View Post
    What if hashirmia senju had big time s rank jutsu that matched sussano
    tsukiyomi
    amaretsu


    tht could be possible...:D..
     
         

  8. #8
    Economical Truth kisamexRocks's Avatar
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    Re: How did the 1st Hokage defeated Uchiha Madara?

    I thought that Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi and Susanoo were MS abilities that only Itachi was able to use?

    Otherwise wouldn't Kakashi be able to use one of those techniques? let alone Madara?
     
         

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    Mighty Dragon Kabu2's Avatar
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    Re: How did the 1st Hokage defeated Uchiha Madara?

    very nice thread

    Maybe madara vs. first then fox vs fourth
     
         

  10. #10
    Uchihas Genius Amat3ra5u's Avatar
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    Re: How did the 1st Hokage defeated Uchiha Madara?

    Quote Originally Posted by kisamexRocks View Post
    I thought that Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi and Susanoo were MS abilities that only Itachi was able to use?

    Otherwise wouldn't Kakashi be able to use one of those techniques? let alone Madara?
    wouldnt that be cool if kakashi
    could use amaterasu, susanoo, and tsukayomi.
    hell be like the best hokage ever. the only bad thing
    is his peewee chakra. for every match he could only
    use 1 ms tech and would have to rest for like half an hour
    before using the next one.
     
         

  11. #11
    Master of Wind and Water Blizzard589's Avatar
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    Re: How did the 1st Hokage defeated Uchiha Madara?

    I like how you worked in the new info of mind/chakra of Kyuubi.
     
         

  12. #12
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    Let's say you have some meat,
    okay? Now, a pirate would chow
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    Re: How did the 1st Hokage defeated Uchiha Madara?

    Very nice theory! Now that makes things more clear! Thanks dude! :D
     
         

  13. #13
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    Re: How did the 1st Hokage defeated Uchiha Madara?

    Another assumption: What if Hashirama in the process of controlling the kyuubi (perhaps similar to Yamato's tech) actually disturbs the chakra of the kyuubi and the latter gets freed from the genjutsu? Although I know that it's only possible if a jinchuriki has full control over the bijuu, this is a different scenario and it might prolly turn things around a bit, like that the kyuubi might run away first and then the two continued their fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by kisamexRocks View Post
    I thought that Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi and Susanoo were MS abilities that only Itachi was able to use?

    Otherwise wouldn't Kakashi be able to use one of those techniques? let alone Madara?
    I was actually suspecting that similarities of techs may be amongst blood brothers (with 1st degree of consanguinity) like Sasuke and Itachi. Since Madara seemed like a distant relative, he must have another bevy of MS techs other than what's known today (i.e. susano'o, tsukuyomi, amaterasu).
     
         

  14. #14
    Ninja Vamyan's Avatar
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    Re: How did the 1st Hokage defeated Uchiha Madara?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chacha View Post
    I was actually suspecting that similarities of techs may be amongst blood brothers (with 1st degree of consanguinity) like Sasuke and Itachi. Since Madara seemed like a distant relative, he must have another bevy of MS techs other than what's known today (i.e. susano'o, tsukuyomi, amaterasu).
    Very good theory, it would explain why only Itachi and Sasuke have been known to use moves like Susanoo.
     
         

  15. #15
    Senior Member eyesofthekyuubi44's Avatar
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    Re: How did the 1st Hokage defeated Uchiha Madara?

    I actually had a theory about how Naruto was going to control the fox that was mostly right. I knew since only a Yin or Yang part was sealed into Naruto, Naruto would have to synchronize with it while blocking something out.

    We haven't really seen Madara talk about the specifics of the fight. He just mentions that he challenged and lost, and we saw a pretty cool action scene about it where Madara is in the center of the moon and the Kyuubi is thrashing shit under him. I figured that Hashirama either used his powers to control the Kyuubi and neutralize it, or used other tailed beasts to help.

    One thing I'd like to add which I stated even before chapter 490 was that now it makes sense that Naruto can use the fox against the Uchiha without worry supposing he can surpress its mind. Naruto knew that Sasuke could enter his subconscious and surpress it, but that must mean the Uchiha can only control the Mind part of the fox while the Senju/Jinchuuriki can control the Body part.
     
         

  16. #16
    Senior Member psukkar's Avatar
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    Re: How did the 1st Hokage defeated Uchiha Madara?

    I had some new ideas I wanted to post with my original post but i couldn't. So i re posted all the whole thing as some stuff is answered.

    There's a lot mystery regarding this fight, so I just thought I'd share my thoughts on this fight.

    A DETAILED flashback is required to know how this fight went down. I think a movie on this these two clans would BE PREFECT.

    There are few things I noticed about this battle and the pages leading up to the page we saw (Madara x Fox) vs Hashirama.

    The thing I wondered about this fight is why did Madara even summon/call the fox to the fight?

    Based from the flashback pages it was made as through Madara and Hashirama were near equals and they have fought many times. So if in fact they were rivals in terms of power that would explain why they survived the many encounters they fought.

    So I reenacted how I think the fight went down.

    Madara as a last ditch effort fought Hashirama with the EMS for the first time.

    He somehow was losing the fight most likely due to Hashirama's stamina as he inherited his body's perfection from the So6P AND his VAST knowledge of techniques(The Third hokage actually talks a little about this at very start of the manga).

    So to try and win the fight even after the element of surprise (EMS) failed he called/summoned the Fox. Now I believe at this point it was a fight between Hashirama and the nine tails as Madara surely would have been exhausted by then.

    For those who don't understand how I came up the conclusion how Hashirama hasn't seen the EMS before this fight was from the order of events shown in the manga.
    1) It was first shown Madara and Hashirama have fought many times.
    2) Madara mentions the fights with Hashirama got him famous and the Uchiha clan's enemies grew from the encounters with the Senju clan. So Madara took he's brothers eyes to obtain EMS for the clan's protection or for himself, either case it doesn't matter.
    3) The Senju clan made a truce, and the Uchiha accepted.
    4) Hashirama becomes the the First hokage.
    5) Madara revolts and challenges(THE FIGHT) Hashirama for the leaf village position.

    He can't have had EMS before he took his brother's eyes(2).
    Although they could have fought before the truce(3) and after he took his brother's eyes(2).
    Also when Madara stated Hashirama gave away the bujj as peace offerings to the other villages he was shown to be wearing the Hokage gown. So this only could have happened after he became hokage(4) and either BEFORE OR AFTER the fight with Madara(5). ONLY A DETAILED FLASHBACK/GAIDEN/MOVIE CAN TELL US FOR SURE when these events actually happened.

    But the most amazing thing you could say from this fight is HOW THE **** did Hashirama subdue the FOX. Now I know a lot of you are gonna say "but Hashirama could control the bujj" but Madara already was manipulating the Fox to do his biding so Hashirama would have had to attack Madara, stop him then suppress the Fox. The reason I think Hashirama would had to deal with Madara first then the fox is because of this. When the fox was under the hypnotic control from the sharingan, I was assuming Hashirama would suppress the fox's chakra like how yamato did for Naruto in 4 tail mode. But this would not stop the mind control from the sharingan would it. From the recent chapter(490) we found out the fox has his power split up into two, mind and chakra. The sharingan would control the mind portion and therefore order the fox around, while Hashirama would only suppress the chakra part. So for Hashirama to get rid of the fox completely from the battlefield he would have had to stop the mind control from Madara by attacking Madara, then he be able to get rid of the fox from the battlefield.

    So to sum up the fight, it when like this;

    1) Madara (EMS) vs Hashirama ... Madara then says oh shit hes still wining.
    2) Madara controls Fox vs Hashirama .... Hashirama SOMEHOW subdues the fox.
    3) Hashirama knocks out Madara to stop the link between Madara and the fox.
    4) Hashirama suppresses the Fox, Fox leaves.
    5) Hashirama somehow with his bullshit stamina lands the final blows to an already exhausted Madara.
    6) Hashirama believes Madara is dead and SOMEHOW more bullshit occurs where Madara survived the WHOLE ORDEAL.

    The other theory popping around this fight is that Hashirama used bujjs himself and would certainly complain lot. But I'm not really convinced Hashirama used any at all. When Madara was talking about this fight(to Sasuke) and about Hashirama's abilities he would have mentioned he used multiple tailed beasts against him. There's no reason for Madara to hold back on the truth like that, it would only make him look A LOT weaker compared to Hashirama. The whole reason he wanted to go against the leaf village was to prove to the world the Uchiha were equals with the Senju(As Hashirama was chosen to be Hokage) and by lying like that it would stand against his principles and beliefs back then. Madara also said Hashirama was the only person he admired, so by saying Hashirama simply used multiple bujjs to defeat him would take away from Hashirama's stature as a shinobi. So basically he could have just have easily said Hashirama used multiple tailed beasts and no one would known the truth anyway. But he didn't.

    Here are other scary notions of what Hashirama had to deal with, the Fox had hes FULL powers this was before the Forth sealed half of the Fox's chakra and we all know what 6-8 tails can do from Naruto. Also as stated by Itachi when you gain EMS you get a NEW technique. And based from the sharingan techniques we've seen already it's most likely another bullshit technique. Pretty astounding stuff.

    Again please remember this is just SPECULATION. Thanks to the recent information about the fox I was able to think up of decent reenactment of the fight.

    Amongst all the mystery lying around this fight one thing has been answered about the degree of control the first hokage has over the tailed beasts. The first hokage could not control the fox's mind to order it around like Madara does via the sharingan. He could only suppress it's chakra and therefore he needed it in a person to control it completely to help him and konoha in the future (Like what Naruto does for Konoha now), otherwise why would he need Mito to seal the fox in within herself if he could control the fox like Madara.

    New Ideas
    I just thought I mention new speculations mentioned by other guys/myself in this thread, saves you from reading every page of the latest ideas of how this fight went down courtesy of the events shown of how the forth hokage managed to stop the nine tail fox.

    We found out recently Mito sealed the fox within the herself, how or when is unknown. Maybe this happened during the fight similar to the forth hokage's encounter. This at the very least takes the fox out the equation leaving the first hokage and Madara to duke it out. I highly doubt Mito wouldn't have been then able to fight using the fox then and there after the sealing. Why you ask? Look how long it took Naruto to control the fox, to think Mito would have been able to do it then and there then start fighting seems way to far fetched. I guess a flashback like the one we got for forth hokage would tell us for sure. Which by the way I think will come because it would add to the story as we would find out how Madara survived, if tobi really ends up being Madara that is. NarutoBase.net - Naruto Manga Chapter 500 - Page 5

    Another possibility is the first hokage completely halted/paralyzed the fox similar to that seal Yamato placed on Naruto as he entered 6-tail form but obviously a lot more powerful and disabled the fox from intervening with the battle and then it was sealed within Mito.

    Once the fox is out of the picture this still leaves another challenge, Madara. Originally we thought time-space techs were only used by the Forth hokage, then saw Tobi(most advanced one to date) use them and now we know that the 2nd hokage can use similar time-space techniques as well. So this begs the question, do you think the first hokage knew space-time techs as well? Also, but I need someone's knowledge on this, someone told me in fanbook 2 (is there such a thing as fanbook?) it says Madara or Tobi didn't have space-time techniques during the fight. But this needs to be confirmed, as something about this weird because that would mean Tobi's identity isn't in question and hes in fact Madara therefore wasting all our time speculating whos under mask all this time. So if this is true, this could be how he got the upper hand on Madara/fox.

    There's a element of the first hokage were not looking into too much, you guys recall the Scroll of seals, written by the first hokage(the one Naruto stole in the first chapter) well I notice there's a scroll with striking resemblance in the picture where Madara and the fox are faced off against the first, could it be the scroll of seals?
    Maybe on this scroll there's time-space techs or for that matter other ridiculous techniques that make the shraingan techniques look average?

    I think little by little Kishi is showing us how powerful the Senju clan were back in there Glory days.
     
         

  17. #17
    Apple pie of doom apple pie of doom's Avatar
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    Re: How did the 1st Hokage defeated Uchiha Madara?

    The 1st used mokuton to create a giant weed, wich he then smoked.
    Madara, being allergic to weed got vulnerable.
     
         

  18. #18
    Senior Member Jinchuuriki of Juubi's Avatar
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    Re: How did the 1st Hokage defeated Uchiha Madara?

    Quote Originally Posted by apple pie of doom View Post
    The 1st used mokuton to create a giant weed, wich he then smoked.
    Madara, being allergic to weed got vulnerable.
    someday I'm gonna hunt you down and kill you apple pie

    on another note tho it sounds like madara can't handle his kush :D lol
     
         

  19. #19
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    Re: How did the 1st Hokage defeated Uchiha Madara?

    Very good breakdown of the fight. some things not mentioned in the first post is that hashirama has two scrolls with him if I remember correctly. One must have been the scroll of forbidden techniques, and the other might have been a scroll for summoning special weapons (judging from the number of weapons on the battlefield and then the image of madara impaled on the battlefield)

    Minato was able to seal madaras control over the nine tailed fox (shown in kushina flashback). Hashirama was married to an uzumake, which could lead you to assume that they taught him the same seal minato used. That is probably how he gained control over the fox during the battle. My recollaction sucks but I want to say I remember kushinasaying that hashirama used the fox to help defeat madara (but i'll have to look into that). I'd definitly like to see more about this fight, and those scrolls.

    Edit: well it looks like you already touched on some of my ideas. Hopefully I was abe to supplement that
     
         
    Last edited by Scary Yamato; 09-28-2010 at 05:31 PM.

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    Re: How did the 1st Hokage defeated Uchiha Madara?

    Madara full flashback, maybe to Sasuke and Kabuto showing the fight between him and the 1st.
     
         

  21. #21
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    Re: How did the 1st Hokage defeated Uchiha Madara?

    The fight was orchestrated,directed and produces by the Author Madara all for one and one thing only, to get the First Hokage power for Himself. When that was accomplish their was no need to keep on fighting let the First Hokage think He won.
     
         

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    Re: How did the 1st Hokage defeated Uchiha Madara?

    Quote Originally Posted by Castiel View Post
    What if hashirmia senju had big time s rank jutsu that matched sussano
    tsukiyomi
    amaretsu
    Dude...not all guys have the same MS techniques....Its similar in those who are blood related.....This probably is the highly plausible one....
     
         

  23. #23
    220 BigTDogg220's Avatar
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    Re: How did the 1st Hokage defeated Uchiha Madara?

    Quote Originally Posted by Honord Sage View Post
    The fight was orchestrated,directed and produces by the Author Madara all for one and one thing only, to get the First Hokage power for Himself. When that was accomplish their was no need to keep on fighting let the First Hokage think He won.
    That's pretty genius to think about, but if that's the case then why did Madara say he's powerless because the wounds from his fight with the 1st were too deep?? NarutoBase.net - Naruto Manga Chapter 467 - Page 9
     
         

  24. #24
    Senior Member rasenshurenken's Avatar
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    Re: How did the 1st Hokage defeated Uchiha Madara?

    i just think he fought him and could of killed him but didnt because he wanted to look like he was dead and he only wanted to fight him to get senju powers and used izangi to escape
     
         

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    Re: How did the 1st Hokage defeated Uchiha Madara?

    Quote Originally Posted by rasenshurenken View Post
    i just think he fought him and could of killed him but didnt because he wanted to look like he was dead and he only wanted to fight him to get senju powers and used izangi to escape
    Why would he want to put his own life in danger....?

    The thing is he wanted to defeat Hashirama to gain his powers and become the Hokage .....He was defeated and in that process may have managed to absorb hashi's powers....He then used Izanagi to escape coz he couldn't do anything else...:P.....( U guys know why right)
     
         

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