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  1. #21
    Hokage Byron123's Avatar
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    Re: [FEAR] Orochimaru;s Loyalty; Konoha's Betrayal

    Quote Originally Posted by FearxDeath View Post
    Are you out of your mind? I gave you clear evidence where on multiple occasions it is referenced that Danzo wanted Konoha to be destroyed so that he could use that as an oppurtunity to assume power. Now you can argue that his real goal was merely to assume power, but nontheless destroying konoha was the means he planned to use to achieve that goal.

    The point I was making was that Orochimaru wanted to destroy konoha BECAUSE danzo told him to in order to help him become Hokage... Now that Danzo is no longer alive he no longer has to follow with his desires. Being in ANBU ROOT means you give your life to Danzo and ROOT, you have no name, you are nobody, just like Sai..


    The more I read this the more I I believe you either didnt comprehend the point I was trying to make, or are just trying to be argumentative. This is made evident when everything I say, you merely say the contrary, being disagreeable for the sake of being disagreeable, no counter points, no scans, no real reason to take your word over mine. I say the sky is blue and show you a picture, you say No its red and then walk away. Eitherway I dont want to draw this out any further. Good day.
    I don't try to be disagreeable just for the sake of being but because there is actualyl a difference between how you and I comprehend distraction. For me Danzo only wanted to destroy Konoha to the point of being easy for him to control it. What I said is that Orochimaru had no desire to control Konoha but simply destroy it.

    In other words, Danzo wants partial destruction since he wants to assume power of what is left whereas Orochimaru since he doesn't have any desire to conquer the village, he wants to completely destroy it, turn in it into ashes. You miscomprehended what I meant in the first place.

    Back to his personality point; You seriously compare Orochimaru's philosophy to Sai's? Orochimaru is nothing like that, he is an egomaniac who seeks immortality and has developped a god complex out of his arrogance for his powers and you suggest that he's just like one of the other anbu puppets, who were living just for Danzo and Konoha? Like seriously? All his actions so far have shown that he was extremely proud and arrogant for the man he is and under no cirmustances does it seem as if he was a no one, just like sai. Even the help he offered to Danzo with the senju dna was because of his personnal reasons so it's not a matter of loyalty as you suggested.
    Do you see now that there is reasoning behind what I suggested and it's not a matter of a whim but rather a difference of opinions in contrast to what you suggested?
     
         
    Last edited by Byron123; 09-05-2013 at 01:54 PM.

  2. #22
    Frog Sage Uchiha ClydeFrog's Avatar
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    Re: [FEAR] Orochimaru;s Loyalty; Konoha's Betrayal

    Awesome read, most or your threads are amazing, this one included,. Keep up the good work.
     
         

  3. #23
    BadWolf FearxDeath's Avatar
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    "When I watch this boy, I
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    Re: [FEAR] Orochimaru;s Loyalty; Konoha's Betrayal

    Quote Originally Posted by The ProphecY View Post

    Lastly, I doubt if Orochimaru's change of heart has anything to do with Danzo. As he said it himself he just wanted to know the outcome of Sasuke's new found path. Further, he said that he has no interest in war but he was interested to the one who started the war.

    Again, this is a long but informative thread. I love reading your theories... Keep up
    And to add to that, His new path is one that happens to lead him down the road to being Hokage. So we have Orochimaru a man who had his chance at Hokage stripped from him, Danzo a man who aspired to be Hokage, and Sasuke another person who aspires to be hokage. And they are all related. There is a connection here, I know it, but this is all ive got in my head. Its like a puzzle waiting to be solved, all the peices are here, I just dont know how they fit together.

    Good to know you still enjoy my threads


    Quote Originally Posted by Byron123 View Post
    I don't try to be disagreeable just for the sake of being but because there is actualyl a difference between how you and I comprehend distraction. For me Danzo only wanted to destroy Konoha to the point of being easy for him to control it. What I said is that Orochimaru had no desire to control Konoha but simply destroy it.

    In other words, Danzo wants partial destruction since he wants to assume power of what is left whereas Orochimaru since he doesn't have any desire to conquer the village, he wants to completely destroy it, turn in it into ashes. You miscomprehended what I meant in the first place.

    Back to his personality point; You seriously compare Orochimaru's philosophy to Sai's? Orochimaru is nothing like that, he is an egomaniac who seeks immortality and has developped a god complex out of his arrogance for his powers and you suggest that he's just like one of the other anbu puppets, who were living just for Danzo and Konoha? Like seriously? All his actions so far have shown that he was extremely proud and arrogant for the man he is and under no cirmustances does it seem as if he was a no one, just like sai. Even the help he offered to Danzo with the senju dna was because of his personnal reasons so it's not a matter of loyalty as you suggested.
    Do you see now that there is reasoning behind what I suggested and it's not a matter of a whim but rather a difference of opinions in contrast to what you suggested?
    Exactly! So we can say it like this:

    Danzo wants the leaf destroyed to obtain power
    Orochimaru wants the leaf destroyed for no real reason, he claims it was on a whim to be the wind that turned the windmill. (Note Danzo is the strongest wind style user in the manga.)

    But here is what you are missing and what even Hiruzen said. Orochimaru is not the man to attack out of vengance. And thus he has no goal or reason to attack the leaf. But Sasuke himself hints that there is no way he did it on just a whim, and thus there had to be a reason and like Hiruzen said that reason is not merely vengance. And this is where we depart, because you think that he would want to destroy it on a whim/vengance, contrary to scans with people with an intimate relationship with orochimaru saying that that simply could not be the reason.

    I was not comparing their philosophies, I was comparing the mentaility of a person who is/was in ROOT, which is that they are nobody, merely instruments to be used as ROOT see's fit. Remember Sai isnt Sai's name, that is the alias he was given when he was sent on the mission and joined Team Yamato, in reality he has no name. I am not saying he is an ANBU puppet, I am merely pointing out that Danzo does not let people into ROOT that are disobedient and self centered. And the fact that Orochimaru made it to become Danzo's right hand man is a testamate to how much trust Danzo had in him.

    Now another thing I want to say is that this thread is not like my others, if you have ever seen a different thread of mine. Other threads of mine have a distince point, this was doesnt. This is more my train of thought regarding this situation. All I do is show scans back to back, and list out in the conclusion what each scan signifies. From there I let people jump to their own conclusions. Personally I dont have a take on this, I can make an assumption, but I couldnt defend it because their isnt enough prove to make any bold claims. This thread is merely a bunch of puzzle pieces, I am hoping someone else could look at this and put it together for me or perhaps help me find a piece that feel under the couch.


    Quote Originally Posted by ClydeFrog View Post
    Awesome read, most or your threads are amazing, this one included,. Keep up the good work.
    Im always glad to hear that someone enjoyed my thread , thanks
     
         

  4. #24
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    Re: [FEAR] Orochimaru;s Loyalty; Konoha's Betrayal

    That's why I want Kishi to elaborate upon Danzo's past more! Too many things left unanswered.. What's your take on why Danzo didn't take over after Hiruzen's death? Great job connecting the dots, even though many things are unclear still.. But I hope we'll see more yet.
     
         

  5. #25
    Hokage Byron123's Avatar
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    Re: [FEAR] Orochimaru;s Loyalty; Konoha's Betrayal

    Quote Originally Posted by FearxDeath View Post



    Exactly! So we can say it like this:

    Danzo wants the leaf destroyed to obtain power
    Orochimaru wants the leaf destroyed for no real reason, he claims it was on a whim to be the wind that turned the windmill. (Note Danzo is the strongest wind style user in the manga.)

    But here is what you are missing and what even Hiruzen said. Orochimaru is not the man to attack out of vengance. And thus he has no goal or reason to attack the leaf. But Sasuke himself hints that there is no way he did it on just a whim, and thus there had to be a reason and like Hiruzen said that reason is not merely vengance. And this is where we depart, because you think that he would want to destroy it on a whim/vengance, contrary to scans with people with an intimate relationship with orochimaru saying that that simply could not be the reason.

    I was not comparing their philosophies, I was comparing the mentaility of a person who is/was in ROOT, which is that they are nobody, merely instruments to be used as ROOT see's fit. Remember Sai isnt Sai's name, that is the alias he was given when he was sent on the mission and joined Team Yamato, in reality he has no name. I am not saying he is an ANBU puppet, I am merely pointing out that Danzo does not let people into ROOT that are disobedient and self centered. And the fact that Orochimaru made it to become Danzo's right hand man is a testamate to how much trust Danzo had in him.

    Now another thing I want to say is that this thread is not like my others, if you have ever seen a different thread of mine. Other threads of mine have a distince point, this was doesnt. This is more my train of thought regarding this situation. All I do is show scans back to back, and list out in the conclusion what each scan signifies. From there I let people jump to their own conclusions. Personally I dont have a take on this, I can make an assumption, but I couldnt defend it because their isnt enough prove to make any bold claims. This thread is merely a bunch of puzzle pieces, I am hoping someone else could look at this and put it together for me or perhaps help me find a piece that feel under the couch.



    I see your point, still though I hope that Orochimaru did have personnal reasons and he wasn't doing all this for someone's else sake. It would destroy his celf-centred personality.

    P.S Where was it stated that Danzo was the stronger wind style user?
     
         

  6. #26
    BadWolf FearxDeath's Avatar
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    "When I watch this boy, I
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    Re: [FEAR] Orochimaru;s Loyalty; Konoha's Betrayal

    Quote Originally Posted by awesomeseimei View Post
    That's why I want Kishi to elaborate upon Danzo's past more! Too many things left unanswered.. What's your take on why Danzo didn't take over after Hiruzen's death? Great job connecting the dots, even though many things are unclear still.. But I hope we'll see more yet.
    I agree with alot of what you just said, if I had to answer why Danzo didnt take over after Hiruzens death is simply because there wasnt enough chaos, which goes back to why Danzo wants Konoha destroyed. The firelord is the person who elects the new Hokage, and that new Hokage has to be someone well liked and respected by the Village as a whole because that is who the Hokage. Danzo is the leader of a mysterious organization who nobody trusts.

    If I had to take a guess I would say that he tried to get made Hokage after Hiruzen's death but wasnt able to because of the above reason, the Sannin who were well known and Hiruzen's students were chosen instead. But more importantly Shikamaru dad, Shikaku, seems to be purposefully trying to keep Danzo elected Hokage. Which I suppose is what prevented him from getting the position last time.

     
         

  7. #27
    Crawling Chaos awesomeseimei's Avatar
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    Re: [FEAR] Orochimaru;s Loyalty; Konoha's Betrayal

    Quote Originally Posted by FearxDeath View Post
    I agree with alot of what you just said, if I had to answer why Danzo didnt take over after Hiruzens death is simply because there wasnt enough chaos, which goes back to why Danzo wants Konoha destroyed. The firelord is the person who elects the new Hokage, and that new Hokage has to be someone well liked and respected by the Village as a whole because that is who the Hokage. Danzo is the leader of a mysterious organization who nobody trusts.

    If I had to take a guess I would say that he tried to get made Hokage after Hiruzen's death but wasnt able to because of the above reason, the Sannin who were well known and Hiruzen's students were chosen instead. But more importantly Shikamaru dad, Shikaku, seems to be purposefully trying to keep Danzo elected Hokage. Which I suppose is what prevented him from getting the position last time.

    Yes, true, I somehow forgot about Shikaku It just seems weird now how the Elders approached Jiraiya even though they seemed to be on Danzo's side. I'm sure there's more to it, of course, and I hope we'll see it.
     
         

  8. #28
    BadWolf FearxDeath's Avatar
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    "When I watch this boy, I
    think back to when I was once
    called a genius, and realize
    how ridiculous that was."
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    Re: [FEAR] Orochimaru;s Loyalty; Konoha's Betrayal

    Quote Originally Posted by awesomeseimei View Post
    Yes, true, I somehow forgot about Shikaku It just seems weird now how the Elders approached Jiraiya even though they seemed to be on Danzo's side. I'm sure there's more to it, of course, and I hope we'll see it.
    Yah, there is definantly alot to go into here, since Kishi has hinted towards another arc after this their may still be a chance for him to shed a little light.
     
         

  9. #29
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    "When I watch this boy, I
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    called a genius, and realize
    how ridiculous that was."
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    Re: [FEAR] Orochimaru;s Loyalty; Konoha's Betrayal

    Looky Looky what I found!!! I wish I could update my thread and add this to it!!

     
         

  10. #30
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    Re: [FEAR] Orochimaru;s Loyalty; Konoha's Betrayal

    While I think that Oro was working with Danzo when he joined Akatsuki, I believe that isn't where he got Senju DNA, I believe that the source stems from Madara Uchiha, as he would have been alive at the time when Orochimaru was young, we still don't know how Kabuto got Madara's body, something even Obito didn't know.

    Edit: And it would predate, when Obito met him, so Oro may have helped Madara with extending his life, for his own reasons (maybe it was one of his early experiments to find immortality). Kishi enjoys connecting the villains origin stories together.
     
         
    Last edited by saw2097; 11-26-2013 at 05:16 AM.

  11. #31
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    Re: [FEAR] Orochimaru;s Loyalty; Konoha's Betrayal

    Lovely mate
     
         

  12. #32
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    Re: [FEAR] Orochimaru;s Loyalty; Konoha's Betrayal

    With a one a day usage capability for Koto Amatsukami, Danzo could have easily made his top men his personal puppets. This includes Oro. In fact, a paranoid man like Danzo is likely to use Koto even on someone completely trustworthy, just to ensure the success of his plans since, to Danzo, any action is justified even if it only increases his chances of success slightly.
     
         

  13. #33
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    Re: [FEAR] Orochimaru;s Loyalty; Konoha's Betrayal

    Interesting read, going to subscribe it, and leave my opinion soon.
     
         

  14. #34
    BadWolf FearxDeath's Avatar
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    "When I watch this boy, I
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    how ridiculous that was."
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    Re: [FEAR] Orochimaru;s Loyalty; Konoha's Betrayal

    Quote Originally Posted by Senju Bean View Post
    With a one a day usage capability for Koto Amatsukami, Danzo could have easily made his top men his personal puppets. This includes Oro. In fact, a paranoid man like Danzo is likely to use Koto even on someone completely trustworthy, just to ensure the success of his plans since, to Danzo, any action is justified even if it only increases his chances of success slightly.
    Keep in mind that before Danzo acquired Senju DNA the requirements for Koto Amatsukami is 10 years and not 1 day. So for him to have used it on Orochimaru, who was the person who implanted the Senju DNA into him, well that is a big risk.
     
         

  15. #35
    BadWolf FearxDeath's Avatar
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    "When I watch this boy, I
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    Re: [FEAR] Orochimaru;s Loyalty; Konoha's Betrayal

    Something else I found recently!

     
         

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