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  1. #21
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    Re: [FEAR] Orochimaru;s Loyalty; Konoha's Betrayal

    Quote Originally Posted by FearxDeath View Post
    Are you out of your mind? I gave you clear evidence where on multiple occasions it is referenced that Danzo wanted Konoha to be destroyed so that he could use that as an oppurtunity to assume power. Now you can argue that his real goal was merely to assume power, but nontheless destroying konoha was the means he planned to use to achieve that goal.

    The point I was making was that Orochimaru wanted to destroy konoha BECAUSE danzo told him to in order to help him become Hokage... Now that Danzo is no longer alive he no longer has to follow with his desires. Being in ANBU ROOT means you give your life to Danzo and ROOT, you have no name, you are nobody, just like Sai..


    The more I read this the more I I believe you either didnt comprehend the point I was trying to make, or are just trying to be argumentative. This is made evident when everything I say, you merely say the contrary, being disagreeable for the sake of being disagreeable, no counter points, no scans, no real reason to take your word over mine. I say the sky is blue and show you a picture, you say No its red and then walk away. Eitherway I dont want to draw this out any further. Good day.
    I don't try to be disagreeable just for the sake of being but because there is actualyl a difference between how you and I comprehend distraction. For me Danzo only wanted to destroy Konoha to the point of being easy for him to control it. What I said is that Orochimaru had no desire to control Konoha but simply destroy it.

    In other words, Danzo wants partial destruction since he wants to assume power of what is left whereas Orochimaru since he doesn't have any desire to conquer the village, he wants to completely destroy it, turn in it into ashes. You miscomprehended what I meant in the first place.

    Back to his personality point; You seriously compare Orochimaru's philosophy to Sai's? Orochimaru is nothing like that, he is an egomaniac who seeks immortality and has developped a god complex out of his arrogance for his powers and you suggest that he's just like one of the other anbu puppets, who were living just for Danzo and Konoha? Like seriously?:vincent: All his actions so far have shown that he was extremely proud and arrogant for the man he is and under no cirmustances does it seem as if he was a no one, just like sai. Even the help he offered to Danzo with the senju dna was because of his personnal reasons so it's not a matter of loyalty as you suggested.
    Do you see now that there is reasoning behind what I suggested and it's not a matter of a whim but rather a difference of opinions in contrast to what you suggested?
     
         
    Last edited by Byron123; 09-05-2013 at 12:54 PM.

  2. #22
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    Re: [FEAR] Orochimaru;s Loyalty; Konoha's Betrayal

    Awesome read, most or your threads are amazing, this one included,. Keep up the good work.
     
         

  3. #23
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    Re: [FEAR] Orochimaru;s Loyalty; Konoha's Betrayal

    Quote Originally Posted by The ProphecY View Post

    Lastly, I doubt if Orochimaru's change of heart has anything to do with Danzo. As he said it himself he just wanted to know the outcome of Sasuke's new found path. Further, he said that he has no interest in war but he was interested to the one who started the war.

    Again, this is a long but informative thread. I love reading your theories... Keep up
    And to add to that, His new path is one that happens to lead him down the road to being Hokage. So we have Orochimaru a man who had his chance at Hokage stripped from him, Danzo a man who aspired to be Hokage, and Sasuke another person who aspires to be hokage. And they are all related. There is a connection here, I know it, but this is all ive got in my head. Its like a puzzle waiting to be solved, all the peices are here, I just dont know how they fit together.

    Good to know you still enjoy my threads


    Quote Originally Posted by Byron123 View Post
    I don't try to be disagreeable just for the sake of being but because there is actualyl a difference between how you and I comprehend distraction. For me Danzo only wanted to destroy Konoha to the point of being easy for him to control it. What I said is that Orochimaru had no desire to control Konoha but simply destroy it.

    In other words, Danzo wants partial destruction since he wants to assume power of what is left whereas Orochimaru since he doesn't have any desire to conquer the village, he wants to completely destroy it, turn in it into ashes. You miscomprehended what I meant in the first place.

    Back to his personality point; You seriously compare Orochimaru's philosophy to Sai's? Orochimaru is nothing like that, he is an egomaniac who seeks immortality and has developped a god complex out of his arrogance for his powers and you suggest that he's just like one of the other anbu puppets, who were living just for Danzo and Konoha? Like seriously?:vincent: All his actions so far have shown that he was extremely proud and arrogant for the man he is and under no cirmustances does it seem as if he was a no one, just like sai. Even the help he offered to Danzo with the senju dna was because of his personnal reasons so it's not a matter of loyalty as you suggested.
    Do you see now that there is reasoning behind what I suggested and it's not a matter of a whim but rather a difference of opinions in contrast to what you suggested?
    Exactly! So we can say it like this:

    Danzo wants the leaf destroyed to obtain power
    Orochimaru wants the leaf destroyed for no real reason, he claims it was on a whim to be the wind that turned the windmill. (Note Danzo is the strongest wind style user in the manga.)

    But here is what you are missing and what even Hiruzen said. Orochimaru is not the man to attack out of vengance. And thus he has no goal or reason to attack the leaf. But Sasuke himself hints that there is no way he did it on just a whim, and thus there had to be a reason and like Hiruzen said that reason is not merely vengance. And this is where we depart, because you think that he would want to destroy it on a whim/vengance, contrary to scans with people with an intimate relationship with orochimaru saying that that simply could not be the reason.

    I was not comparing their philosophies, I was comparing the mentaility of a person who is/was in ROOT, which is that they are nobody, merely instruments to be used as ROOT see's fit. Remember Sai isnt Sai's name, that is the alias he was given when he was sent on the mission and joined Team Yamato, in reality he has no name. I am not saying he is an ANBU puppet, I am merely pointing out that Danzo does not let people into ROOT that are disobedient and self centered. And the fact that Orochimaru made it to become Danzo's right hand man is a testamate to how much trust Danzo had in him.

    Now another thing I want to say is that this thread is not like my others, if you have ever seen a different thread of mine. Other threads of mine have a distince point, this was doesnt. This is more my train of thought regarding this situation. All I do is show scans back to back, and list out in the conclusion what each scan signifies. From there I let people jump to their own conclusions. Personally I dont have a take on this, I can make an assumption, but I couldnt defend it because their isnt enough prove to make any bold claims. This thread is merely a bunch of puzzle pieces, I am hoping someone else could look at this and put it together for me or perhaps help me find a piece that feel under the couch.


    Quote Originally Posted by ClydeFrog View Post
    Awesome read, most or your threads are amazing, this one included,. Keep up the good work.
    Im always glad to hear that someone enjoyed my thread , thanks
     
         

  4. #24
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    Re: [FEAR] Orochimaru;s Loyalty; Konoha's Betrayal

    That's why I want Kishi to elaborate upon Danzo's past more! Too many things left unanswered.. What's your take on why Danzo didn't take over after Hiruzen's death? Great job connecting the dots, even though many things are unclear still.. But I hope we'll see more yet.
     
         

  5. #25
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    Re: [FEAR] Orochimaru;s Loyalty; Konoha's Betrayal

    Quote Originally Posted by FearxDeath View Post



    Exactly! So we can say it like this:

    Danzo wants the leaf destroyed to obtain power
    Orochimaru wants the leaf destroyed for no real reason, he claims it was on a whim to be the wind that turned the windmill. (Note Danzo is the strongest wind style user in the manga.)

    But here is what you are missing and what even Hiruzen said. Orochimaru is not the man to attack out of vengance. And thus he has no goal or reason to attack the leaf. But Sasuke himself hints that there is no way he did it on just a whim, and thus there had to be a reason and like Hiruzen said that reason is not merely vengance. And this is where we depart, because you think that he would want to destroy it on a whim/vengance, contrary to scans with people with an intimate relationship with orochimaru saying that that simply could not be the reason.

    I was not comparing their philosophies, I was comparing the mentaility of a person who is/was in ROOT, which is that they are nobody, merely instruments to be used as ROOT see's fit. Remember Sai isnt Sai's name, that is the alias he was given when he was sent on the mission and joined Team Yamato, in reality he has no name. I am not saying he is an ANBU puppet, I am merely pointing out that Danzo does not let people into ROOT that are disobedient and self centered. And the fact that Orochimaru made it to become Danzo's right hand man is a testamate to how much trust Danzo had in him.

    Now another thing I want to say is that this thread is not like my others, if you have ever seen a different thread of mine. Other threads of mine have a distince point, this was doesnt. This is more my train of thought regarding this situation. All I do is show scans back to back, and list out in the conclusion what each scan signifies. From there I let people jump to their own conclusions. Personally I dont have a take on this, I can make an assumption, but I couldnt defend it because their isnt enough prove to make any bold claims. This thread is merely a bunch of puzzle pieces, I am hoping someone else could look at this and put it together for me or perhaps help me find a piece that feel under the couch.



    I see your point, still though I hope that Orochimaru did have personnal reasons and he wasn't doing all this for someone's else sake. It would destroy his celf-centred personality.

    P.S Where was it stated that Danzo was the stronger wind style user?
     
         

  6. #26
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    Re: [FEAR] Orochimaru;s Loyalty; Konoha's Betrayal

    Quote Originally Posted by awesomeseimei View Post
    That's why I want Kishi to elaborate upon Danzo's past more! Too many things left unanswered.. What's your take on why Danzo didn't take over after Hiruzen's death? Great job connecting the dots, even though many things are unclear still.. But I hope we'll see more yet.
    I agree with alot of what you just said, if I had to answer why Danzo didnt take over after Hiruzens death is simply because there wasnt enough chaos, which goes back to why Danzo wants Konoha destroyed. The firelord is the person who elects the new Hokage, and that new Hokage has to be someone well liked and respected by the Village as a whole because that is who the Hokage. Danzo is the leader of a mysterious organization who nobody trusts.

    If I had to take a guess I would say that he tried to get made Hokage after Hiruzen's death but wasnt able to because of the above reason, the Sannin who were well known and Hiruzen's students were chosen instead. But more importantly Shikamaru dad, Shikaku, seems to be purposefully trying to keep Danzo elected Hokage. Which I suppose is what prevented him from getting the position last time.

     
         

  7. #27
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    Re: [FEAR] Orochimaru;s Loyalty; Konoha's Betrayal

    Quote Originally Posted by FearxDeath View Post
    I agree with alot of what you just said, if I had to answer why Danzo didnt take over after Hiruzens death is simply because there wasnt enough chaos, which goes back to why Danzo wants Konoha destroyed. The firelord is the person who elects the new Hokage, and that new Hokage has to be someone well liked and respected by the Village as a whole because that is who the Hokage. Danzo is the leader of a mysterious organization who nobody trusts.

    If I had to take a guess I would say that he tried to get made Hokage after Hiruzen's death but wasnt able to because of the above reason, the Sannin who were well known and Hiruzen's students were chosen instead. But more importantly Shikamaru dad, Shikaku, seems to be purposefully trying to keep Danzo elected Hokage. Which I suppose is what prevented him from getting the position last time.

    Yes, true, I somehow forgot about Shikaku It just seems weird now how the Elders approached Jiraiya even though they seemed to be on Danzo's side. I'm sure there's more to it, of course, and I hope we'll see it.
     
         

  8. #28
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    "When I watch this boy, I
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    Re: [FEAR] Orochimaru;s Loyalty; Konoha's Betrayal

    Quote Originally Posted by awesomeseimei View Post
    Yes, true, I somehow forgot about Shikaku It just seems weird now how the Elders approached Jiraiya even though they seemed to be on Danzo's side. I'm sure there's more to it, of course, and I hope we'll see it.
    Yah, there is definantly alot to go into here, since Kishi has hinted towards another arc after this their may still be a chance for him to shed a little light.
     
         

  9. #29
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    Re: [FEAR] Orochimaru;s Loyalty; Konoha's Betrayal

    Looky Looky what I found!!! I wish I could update my thread and add this to it!!

     
         

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    Re: [FEAR] Orochimaru;s Loyalty; Konoha's Betrayal

    While I think that Oro was working with Danzo when he joined Akatsuki, I believe that isn't where he got Senju DNA, I believe that the source stems from Madara Uchiha, as he would have been alive at the time when Orochimaru was young, we still don't know how Kabuto got Madara's body, something even Obito didn't know.

    Edit: And it would predate, when Obito met him, so Oro may have helped Madara with extending his life, for his own reasons (maybe it was one of his early experiments to find immortality). Kishi enjoys connecting the villains origin stories together.
     
         
    Last edited by saw2097; 11-26-2013 at 04:16 AM.

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    Re: [FEAR] Orochimaru;s Loyalty; Konoha's Betrayal

    Lovely mate
     
         

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    Re: [FEAR] Orochimaru;s Loyalty; Konoha's Betrayal

    With a one a day usage capability for Koto Amatsukami, Danzo could have easily made his top men his personal puppets. This includes Oro. In fact, a paranoid man like Danzo is likely to use Koto even on someone completely trustworthy, just to ensure the success of his plans since, to Danzo, any action is justified even if it only increases his chances of success slightly.
     
         

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    Re: [FEAR] Orochimaru;s Loyalty; Konoha's Betrayal

    Interesting read, going to subscribe it, and leave my opinion soon.
     
         

  14. #34
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    Re: [FEAR] Orochimaru;s Loyalty; Konoha's Betrayal

    Quote Originally Posted by Senju Bean View Post
    With a one a day usage capability for Koto Amatsukami, Danzo could have easily made his top men his personal puppets. This includes Oro. In fact, a paranoid man like Danzo is likely to use Koto even on someone completely trustworthy, just to ensure the success of his plans since, to Danzo, any action is justified even if it only increases his chances of success slightly.
    Keep in mind that before Danzo acquired Senju DNA the requirements for Koto Amatsukami is 10 years and not 1 day. So for him to have used it on Orochimaru, who was the person who implanted the Senju DNA into him, well that is a big risk.
     
         

  15. #35
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    Re: [FEAR] Orochimaru;s Loyalty; Konoha's Betrayal

    Something else I found recently!

     
         

  16. #36
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    Re: [FEAR] Orochimaru;s Loyalty; Konoha's Betrayal

    Quote Originally Posted by FearxDeath View Post
    Something else I found recently!


    Update
     
         

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    Re: [FEAR] Orochimaru;s Loyalty; Konoha's Betrayal

    Quote Originally Posted by FearxDeath View Post
    Fair warning this may be a bit incoherent simply because its my raw thoughts, and its a pretty radical concept. So you may want to read it one more time and make sure you understand what I am saying before you chose to disagree with me.

    Added 2 Updates


    There is a question that I have been thinking about for a really long time... "Why does Orochimaru hate Konoha", Why did he chose to destroy it? What was the motivation? If you have been wondering the same thing then grab some chips, get a drink and enjoy the read.

    My Thoughts




    So the question of "Why" has been raised. What are Orochimaru's Motivations. He was next in line to become Hokage, but instead found himself bannished from the village, he later returns to kill his former mentor and express his distain for his former village, after which he simply changes his mind? Well thats all well and good but lets look at a few scans and see where they take us.

    First thing is first, I am an Orochimaru Fan Boy, now unlike other fan boys I dont let that get in the way of common sense, but I think it should be said.

    Now lets jump right into this with someone I found:



    Orochimaru was in ROOT, not just was he in root but he was one of Danzo's 2 main Henchmen. This is no easy feat, now this got me thinking.. Then I remembered something...



    Orochimaru also helped Danzo extend his powers by messing around his with Senju DNA, hell he probably was the one who hooked him up with it in the first place. We know he was in ROOT at the time.



    But wait a minute...



    Wasnt Orochimaru kicked out of Konoha for the horrible experiments he did in regards to Senju DNA?



    Which is a weird thing to do when your in the running of becoming the Hokage...



    As a matter of fact how did he even get his hands on the 1st's remains in the first place? The only person so far that we know had access to that was Danzo... Wait a minute... WAIT A MINUTE!



    Whoa whats going on here... I think we've stumbled upon something... Lets keep going.



    Wait he was a double agent, so he was spying on Orochimaru for Danzo behind Orochimaru's back?



    I dont think so... So then what could be going on here, I am very confused.






    My Thoughts Part 2




    That was very interesting, so we leave off knowing that Orochimaru is indeed in cahoots with Danzo and we know that Danzo wanted Konoha destroy.. Wait a minute.. didnt someone else have a plan to destroy Konoha?



    Hmm, So Orochimaru and Danzo just happen to have the same goals, and they just happen to work together, to this I have to qoute Albert Einstein "I like god do not play with dice, and do not believe in coincidence."

    Hmm There is also something else strange about this picture.



    When Itachi's sword shakes, look at the symbol used to represent that shaking... And notice that his cries. Now take a closer look at this.



    The shaking symbol, dog gone-it its the same... but there has to be a common denomanator here, this cant all be some kind of coincedence... so then what connects Itachi to Orochimaru?



    Wow... I am not quite sure what to make of this, this is all just jumbled in my head but there is something I am missing here...



    What is my brain trying to tell me right now? Wait a minute, Itachi and Orochimaru were both in the Akatsuki, heck Orochimaru killed the 4th Kazekage.



    But then... Orochimaru left... Right around the time Itachi entered?...



    As a matter of fact, why did Itachi join the Akatsuki in the first place?



    To spy on them, thats right... And as Itachi the spy joined, Orochimaru *cough* the spy *cough* left...? But thats odd right? The more spies the better? But maybe its because of who they were spying for... I mean 2 spies snooping around are bound to figure out that one of these things are not like the other, and when that happens theyll ask who the other is spying for... Itachi was spying for the village, Orochimaru was spying for...?

    Idk forget about it, maybe I am making too much of it...But then again now that Danzo is dead and gone Orochimaru's desire to destroy the village seems to be gone as well?








    Conclusion




    I dont know... Im not too sure what to make of this. This feels like a thread in the making, perhaps we will get a little more info in the chapters to come that well help me organize this stream of thought into a coherent thread. Until then I leave you with a summary of questions I raised:

    • Orochimaru and Danzo worked together and Orochimaru pressumably was the person who gave Danzo his Senju DNA and implanted his eyes for him... But the question is on whose orders did he do all of this.
    • Orochimaru is then made a Hokage candidate
    • Instead of becoming Hokage he is caught experimenting on Senju DNA and is banished from the village.
    • He then joins the Akatsuki for no particular reason, the guy has no goals or motivations...
    • Itachi is convinced to kill the Uchiha by Danzo (Striking simlarirties between Itachi killing his Family and Orochimaru killing Hiruzen)
    • Afterwhich Itachi joins the Akatsuki as a spy and Orochimaru just happens to leave the Akatsuki as well
    • Orochimaru accepts Sai to join his team after reading a letter written to him from Danzo, which presupposes that they are still working together.
    • We know that through out this time Orochimaru has wanted to destroy Konoha but we do not know why
    • We also know that Danzo wants to destroy Konoha in order to make himself the Hokage
    • We know that after Danzo's death when Orochimaru is ressurected he no longer wants to destroy Konoha, but rather has found a new wind within Sasuke.


    Since I have drawn such a strong comparison between Itachi and Orochimaru I think it would be fitting to leave you with the same words Itachi gave Sasuke:



    Lets just hope your reaction isnt the same as Sasuke's, who only thought he knew the truth...




    UPDATE 1



    You make a good point, which is something I considered as well. I think alot of people are seeing the scheme I was making, and then jump to conclusion on what I think. Everyone keeps repeating Do I think Danzo was manipulating Orochimaru and whether or not this or that and the answer is, everything I think is in the thread, if you didnt get that answer then I didnt come to that conclusion. I dont make assumptions, I deal with facts alone.

    To respond to your first comment which I really liked I would have to say that Orochimaru was not being used by Danzo, rather it was a mutual relationship. Perhaps Orochimaru wanted to experiment more with the Senju DNA and in return get some Uchiha DNA (Their has to be a few spare bodies to go along with all of those eyes). All I am saying is that I dont think it is a mere coincedence that Orochimaru seems to want to destroy the village for no apparent reason mind you, and Danzo who is working with Orochimaru ALSO wants the village destroyed for his personal reasons. And Hiruzen said it himself, there has to be an alterior reason for Orochimaru wanting to attack the village as he has no goals and attacking out of vengeance doesnt suit him. Hiruzen pretty much said it himself.

    Now let me show you something I thought was weird:



    As soon as Hiruzen was defeated and Orochimaru lost his arms he tells them to retreat saying it was all finished. But logically speaking it wasnt.. He had no knowledge of how the plan was going, merely after killing Hiruzen he orders his sqaud to retreat leaving the Sand Village, who were following his orders, out to dry.

    Basically to respond to your very last point breifly, We know that Danzo wanted the destruction of Konoha, perhaps not the completely destruction but enough to warrant a non suspicious death of the Hokage along with enough inner turmoil that no one would challenge him seizing power. Now you may argue against how reasonable this is but this is EXACTLY what happened after Pain totally destroyed the village and put Tsunade in a coma, so we know that the method was a good one.


    UPDATE 2



    I agree with alot of what you just said, if I had to answer why Danzo didnt take over after Hiruzens death is simply because there wasnt enough chaos, which goes back to why Danzo wants Konoha destroyed. The firelord is the person who elects the new Hokage, and that new Hokage has to be someone well liked and respected by the Village as a whole because that is who the Hokage represents. Danzo is the leader of a mysterious organization who nobody trusts.

    On top of that he tried to get made Hokage after Hiruzen's death but wasnt able to because of the above reason, the Sannin who were well known and Hiruzen's students were chosen instead. But more importantly Shikamaru dad, Shikaku, seems to be purposefully trying to keep Danzo from being elected Hokage. Which I suppose is what prevented him from getting the position last time.

    it's because he was upset that he was banished, just like Satan in Paradise Lost, thus his serpent symbolism/getting his limbs taken.
     
         

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