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  1. #1
    Senior Member EjBlack's Avatar
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    Senjutsu: Genjutsu

    It seems that Genjutsu is being ignored when it comes to power boost, from Senjutsu. People claim that it is simply the "same" as if they weren't boosting it with Genjutsu via breaking out. So lets start from scratch here by reading Jiraya's words:


    Jiraya explains that there is only two ways he explain.

    "Okay we get that Ej--" No you don't get it.


    "Jiraya said" is where I was getting at. Jiraya is only speaking from his own experience, when facing the Genjutsu's HE had to face with. But as we know through out the manga they are other Genjutsu out there I required something different other then Jiraya's method. One was, as you can say Demonic Flute, when pain can help break its bind. Another one is 2nd Mizukage' the most confusing one of all, if I may say, and last MS Genjtusu: Tsukuyomi.

    Using Tsukuyomi would be the best example I will be using to get my point across, since its a "higher level Sharingan jutsu then the 3 tome Sharingan Genjutsu".

    Here is the best example here:

    Lets read "Chiyo's experience": [X] [X]. As you see here she was so confident in her experience that she thought out a counter to "Sharingan Genjutsu". But in the end, Kakashi breaks it to her here, sadly [X] [X] <--Chiyo. Kakashi was right in the end, a higher genjutsu means a harder, different, and to almost impossible to break out with it did to the lower tiers.

    Some people even like to use perfect jinjiruki as an example: [X]. ERRNT! Wrong! Once again Bee is talking about his own experience when dealing with generic genjutsu. Nothing suggest that he breaks higher genjutsu that requires specific steps in order to break it. Naruto already comment that, even for a perfect jinjiruki that trained him, that he should avoid getting hit by Tsukuyomi [X] [X]. Bee does not have the requirements to beat Tsukuyomi, as it is not the same as the generic Sharingan genjutsu.

    Now to get to my point, concerning Senjutsu: Genjutsu.

    A lot of people want to bring out this comment (concerning Kabutos Genjutsu): "Kabuto uses Tayuya, So all you need to do break hurt yourself to counter her Genjutsu."

    Wrong! as it was already explained that the Genjustu advances to a new power level with Senjutsu. [X]. A higher level from the Genjutsu means different requirement to break through since it is no longer a generic form.

    This concludes that Kabutos genjutsu MUST BE BROKEN FROM THE WAY IT WAS IN THE MANGA. Breaking from the manga means its canon on HOW to break the jutsu. SO NOW LETS SEE HOW:


    Commentary begins: Here we see Sasuke and Itachi getting caught by this genjutsu. As you see in the sound effects, Sussanoo is being removed due to being in Kabutos genjutsu. So that tells you some chakra sources are shut down with paralyses thatt help activates Sussanoo, this Kabuto commented that Sussano is vulnerable to sound attacks.



    Here you see Itachi forming a plan in order to break the jutsu. Once Itachi told Sasuke to look at him, Sasuke just picked up and understood what they can do to release the Genjutsu, and that is genjutsing (lol) each other.

    So that is the canon counter to break the Genjutsu:

    1. Partner (check)
    2. Genjutsu (check)

    Using the genjutsu they had, they had to specifically attack each others brain. Manipulating the flow of chakra of each other, they accessed inside Kabuto's genjutsu to break down the bind.

    Which concludes: Partner must be in the genjutsu to break you out.

    Now I wonder how you break out of Demonic Illusion: Toad Confrontation Chant (via SM Jiraya's)
     
         

  2. #2
    Master Unorthodox Almighty Unorthodox's Avatar
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    Re: Senjutsu: Genjutsu

    same as every genjutsu you either need a partner or sharingan
     
         

  3. #3
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    Re: Senjutsu: Genjutsu

    Dat Kabuto
     
         

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    Re: Senjutsu: Genjutsu

    After reading this thread I realized Naruto can ROFLSTOMP Madara in Perfect Susanoo
     
         

  5. #5
    Senior Member The Orange Hokage's Avatar
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    Re: Senjutsu: Genjutsu

    good thread, and breaking out of TCC jutsu...... I have no idea .-.
     
         

  6. #6
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    Re: Senjutsu: Genjutsu

    Good job Ej. Even though I thought it was known Sennin Modo increases your abilities to the nth level, this is informative.
     
         

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    Senior Member EjBlack's Avatar
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    Re: Senjutsu: Genjutsu

    Quote Originally Posted by Penguin. View Post
    Good job Ej. Even though I thought it was known Sennin Modo increases your abilities to the nth level, this is informative.
    At least we can conclude way higher then Cursed Mark, commented by Kabuto [X]
     
         

  8. #8
    Senior Member Narutoga's Avatar
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    Re: Senjutsu: Genjutsu

    Naruto can summon ma and pa and put madara in genjutsu
    GG madara
     
         

  9. #9
    Senior Member Narutoga's Avatar
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    them just misbehaving nowadays
     

    Re: Senjutsu: Genjutsu

    Naruto can summon ma and pa and put madara in genjutsu
    GG madara
     
         

  10. #10
    ※ NB's Polymath ※ BlacLord's Avatar
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    Re: Senjutsu: Genjutsu

    Why make a thread out of something that is common knowledge?
     
         

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    Re: Senjutsu: Genjutsu

    only sharingan genjustsu rules
     
         

  12. #12
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    Re: Senjutsu: Genjutsu

    Quote Originally Posted by BlacLord View Post
    Why make a thread out of something that is common knowledge?
    i second this
     
         

  13. #13
    Senior Member EjBlack's Avatar
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    Re: Senjutsu: Genjutsu

    Quote Originally Posted by Narutoga View Post
    Naruto can summon ma and pa and put madara in genjutsu
    GG madara
    Except, Naruto can't summon Ma and Pa..

    Quote Originally Posted by BlacLord View Post
    Why make a thread out of something that is common knowledge?
    Because I was arguing with people who said it is easy to break out of Kabutos Genjutsu, and I wanted to break it down?
     
         

  14. #14
    Previous username: Yama Pleiades's Avatar
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    Re: Senjutsu: Genjutsu

    I think this is more of a theory though. Can the edos even feel pain? That method may have been useless as far as Itachi is concerned. It could have also been enhanced through range/power. i.e. effecting someone from the Leaf Village while in the Sand Village (an exaggerated example).
     
         

  15. #15
    Senior Member EjBlack's Avatar
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    Re: Senjutsu: Genjutsu

    Quote Originally Posted by Nàmeless View Post
    I think this is more of a theory though. Can the edos even feel pain? That method may have been useless as far as Itachi is concerned. It could have also been enhanced through range/power. i.e. effecting someone from the Leaf Village while in the Sand Village (an exaggerated example).
    How is it a theory? It is a fact that you cannot break out Sharingan Genjutsu the same way you have to break out of Tsukuyomi, which I already proved.

    You cannot break out of the flute jutsu the same way it was when Senjutsu added on to it. If the jutst is stronger then its base form means we cannot contradict that you have to cancel it the same way.
     
         

  16. #16
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    Re: Senjutsu: Genjutsu

    Quote Originally Posted by EjBlack View Post
    How is it a theory? It is a fact that you cannot break out Sharingan Genjutsu the same way you have to break out of Tsukuyomi, which I already proved.

    You cannot break out of the flute jutsu the same way it was when Senjutsu added on to it. If the jutst is stronger then its base form means we cannot contradict that you have to cancel it the same way.

    There's nothing proving this to be true. You're trying to say that the previous method shown of breaking out this genjutsu is no longer possible when it could just as easily mean the range of this genjutsu is increased. In the latter scenario, the senjutsu still enhances it. Furthermore, edos cannot feel pain, a possible reason for that tag-team cancellation. Also, the logic that because they chose to use that method must mean the other method is no longer possible is flawed.


    You're trying to conclude that because Tsukyomi>normal sharingan genjustu, Tayuya's senjutsu enhanced genjutsu=different method of breaking out. However, Kakashi clearly states it's because it's instant. That's what makes the genjutsu "stronger". If more time was allowed, then one can break out via the partner method. It's not so strong that a partner cannot break them out (if allowed the time); it's just really fast. That's why the partner method is negated.
     
         
    Last edited by Pleiades; 10-23-2013 at 10:13 PM.

  17. #17
    Senior Member EjBlack's Avatar
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    Re: Senjutsu: Genjutsu

    Quote Originally Posted by Nàmeless View Post
    There's nothing proving this to be true. You're trying to say that the previous method shown of breaking out this genjutsu is no longer possible when it could just as easily mean the range of this genjutsu is increased. In the latter scenario, the senjutsu still enhances it. Furthermore, edos cannot feel pain, a possible reason for that tag-team cancellation. Also, the logic that because they chose to use that method must mean the other method is no longer possible is flawed.
    Do you understand what upgrade means? an occurrence in which one thing is replaced by something better, newer, more valuable. Naruto's rasegan is not going to do the same damage as it did with Sage. Naruto's TBB is not going to do the same damage as a regular TBB. Many many more examples. The fact is Senjutsu makes your jutsus stronger, fact. Nothing states of it increases its range, and you are going to need evidence that it does then making it "stronger", to which the manga already applied.

    Where are you going, with bring up Edo? Edo has nothing to do with the discussion.

    No its not flaw because Genjutsu are canceled by different/speific methods. I JUST gave you a list like 2nd Mizukage.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nàmeless View Post
    You're trying to conclude that because Tsukyomi>normal sharingan genjustu, Tayuya's senjutsu enhanced genjutsu=different method of breaking out. However, Kakashi clearly states it's because it's instant. That's what makes the genjutsu "stronger". If more time was allowed, then one can break out via the partner method. It's not so strong that a partner cannot break them out (if allowed the time); it's just really fast. That's why the partner method is negated.
    Wrong, the reason why Tsukyomi>Normal Sharingan is because one must have Uchiha blood to break it. Tsukyomi can control time in its realm [X]. <-- Meaning the partner can move slow-mo before attempting to cancel the jutsu at Itachis time, and not that it matters, it needs to be an Uchiha's blood [X].
     
         

  18. #18
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    Re: Senjutsu: Genjutsu

    Quote Originally Posted by EjBlack View Post
    Do you understand what upgrade means? an occurrence in which one thing is replaced by something better, newer, more valuable. Naruto's rasegan is not going to do the same damage as it did with Sage. Naruto's TBB is not going to do the same damage as a regular TBB. Many many more examples.
    So having a greater range isn't better; thus upgraded? Yes I know what it means...

    The fact is Senjutsu makes your jutsus stronger, fact. Nothing states of it increases its range, and you are going to need evidence that it does then making it "stronger", to which the manga already applied.
    Yes it does, increasing the range is making it stronger. You have no 'facts' that the original method of breaking out is void. To even begin to go down that road, you must be referring to the edo tensei fight...

    Where are you going, with bring up Edo? Edo has nothing to do with the discussion.
    It's inherent within this discussion. Edos cannot feel pain. Logically,one of the best ways to break out was to utilize their sharingan genjutsus.

    No its not flaw because Genjutsu are canceled by different/speific methods. I JUST gave you a list like 2nd Mizukage.
    @Bold, that's what I'm trying to get you to see. Where's the proof stating that senjutsu cancels the method of breaking out a genjutsu? Show me this proof. It only says it makes it stronger, I don't see how that's equivalent to nullifying methods.




    Wrong, the reason why Tsukyomi>Normal Sharingan is because one must have Uchiha blood to break it. Tsukyomi can control time in its realm [X]. <-- Meaning the partner can move slow-mo before attempting to cancel the jutsu at Itachis time, and not that it matters, it needs to be an Uchiha's blood [X].
    Yeah, to an Uchiha, one can overcome the realm itself; thus making the time aspect a non-factor. It is too fast for it to be broken any other way. Anyways, you're missing the point, for argument's sake I'll agree; since it's not the idea I'm trying to get across to you.

    Tsukyomi=Must possess Uchiha blood

    Sharingan genjustu=Kai or partner method

    Demonic Flute=Pain

    Senjutsu enhanced=stronger=/=different method of escaping.


    You have some nice points; namely stronger genjutsu being harder to break out of. However, that's what make this a theory. If it weren't for that, I'd call it a baseless assumption. In order for this to become fact, you would have to prove directly that escaping via pain does not work. Also, that senjutsu specifically makes it stronger the way you are stating. See what I'm saying?
     
         
    Last edited by Pleiades; 10-23-2013 at 11:13 PM.

  19. #19
    Senior Member EjBlack's Avatar
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    Re: Senjutsu: Genjutsu

    Quote Originally Posted by Nàmeless View Post
    So having a greater range isn't better; thus upgraded? Yes I know what it means...



    Yes it does, increasing the range is making it stronger. You have no 'facts' that the original method of breaking out is void. To even begin to go down that road, you must be referring to the edo tensei fight...



    It's inherent within this discussion. Edos cannot feel pain. Logically,one of the best ways to break out was to utilize their sharingan genjutsus.



    @Bold, that's what I'm trying to get you to see. Where's the proof stating that senjutsu cancels the method of breaking out a genjutsu? Show me this proof. It only says it makes it stronger, I don't see how that's equivalent to nullifying methods.






    Yeah, to an Uchiha, one can overcome the realm itself; thus making the time aspect a non-factor. It is too fast for it to be broken any other way. Anyways, you're missing the point, for argument's sake I'll agree; since it's not the idea I'm trying to get across to you.

    Tsukyomi=Must possess Uchiha blood

    Sharingan genjustu=Kai or partner method

    Demonic Flute=Pain

    Senjutsu enhanced=stronger=/=different method of escaping.


    You have some nice points; namely stronger genjutsu being harder to break out of. However, that's what make this a theory. If it weren't for that, I'd call it a baseless assumption. In order for this to become fact, you would have to prove directly that escaping via pain does not work. Also, that senjutsu specifically makes it stronger the way you are stating. See what I'm saying?
    Ok if your statement is saying, "for all we know, the sound genjutsu is stronger by increasing its range only". Then wouldn't that conclude the jutsu should of looked the same as Tayua? Because by the scan of Sasuke and Itachi, being posses, they are covered with the White Snake, binding. The visual binding is completely different the hers.

    Lets not talking about Sound Genjutsu for a sec:


    If, Hypothetically, Itachi had Sage Mode and puts someone under a Sharingan Genjutsu (not Tsukuyomi). What effects would it have any different? What would be its method of breaking the jutsu?
     
         

  20. #20
    Senior Member slimreaper's Avatar
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    Re: Senjutsu: Genjutsu

    so basically you're saying DSM kabuto is number 1 in the manga based on tayuya's genjutsu? yeah right keep dreaming
     
         

  21. #21
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    Re: Senjutsu: Genjutsu

    Quote Originally Posted by EjBlack View Post
    Ok if your statement is saying, "for all we know, the sound genjutsu is stronger by increasing its range only". Then wouldn't that conclude the jutsu should of looked the same as Tayua? Because by the scan of Sasuke and Itachi, being posses, they are covered with the White Snake, binding. The visual binding is completely different the hers.

    Lets not talking about Sound Genjutsu for a sec:


    If, Hypothetically, Itachi had Sage Mode and puts someone under a Sharingan Genjutsu (not Tsukuyomi). What effects would it have any different? What would be its method of breaking the jutsu?

    That's not really a point that would make my point moot. I could ask why did it not look the same if the only thing different was the method of breaking out. Ultimately, our answers would be the same; it was senjutsu enhanced.


    I think it depends on the particular sharingan genjutsu. Probably be greater chakra flow to the brain to disrupt it (if this is one of the ways to break that particular sharingan genjutsu), and or greater control over the hypnotized individual (if this is the ability of the sharingan genjutsu).


    Another problem I see with this, is that you created the requirements. I don't think that's Kishi's intentions, or what he thinks of it. Kabuto basically solos the SO6P with the requirements you created. You don't think that's a bit much?
     
         
    Last edited by Pleiades; 10-23-2013 at 11:51 PM.

  22. #22
    Senior Member EjBlack's Avatar
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    Re: Senjutsu: Genjutsu

    Quote Originally Posted by slimreaper View Post
    so basically you're saying DSM kabuto is number 1 in the manga based on tayuya's genjutsu? yeah right keep dreaming
    strawman

    Quote Originally Posted by Nàmeless View Post
    That's not really a point that would make my point moot. I could ask why did it not look the same if the only thing different was the method of breaking out. Ultimately, our answers would be the same; it was senjutsu enhanced.


    I think it depends on the particular sharingan genjutsu. Probably be greater chakra flow to the brain to disrupt it (if this is one of the ways to break that particular sharingan genjutsu), and or greater control over the hypnotized individual (if this is the ability of the sharingan genjutsu).


    Another problem I see with this, is that you created the requirements. I don't think that's Kishi's intentions, or what he thinks of it. Kabuto basically solos the SO6P with the requirements you created. You don't think that's a bit much?
    -Alright
    -So basically we will never know hypothetically. How much is "enough" to break the genjutsu.
    -We don't know how powerful the Sage was. We can only hint was an incomplete version is like via Obito. And in incomplete version was shown vulnerable natural energy attacks. Then again via Obito was at a point where he broke the seal from Minato, that was said was Permanent, and yet fail to break 2nd Hokage seal. So whos to say what happens.
     
         

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