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  1. #1
    BadWolf FearxDeath's Avatar
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    "When I watch this boy, I
    think back to when I was once
    called a genius, and realize
    how ridiculous that was."
    - Orochimaru
     

    [FEAR] Analysis: Can Hiruzen use Onmyoudon?

    I recently overhauled this thread remaking a few sections to strengthen the point I was making and adding 2 very informative Update's. I recommend everyone re-read it.


    WARNING: Enter thread with an Open Mind.


    Most people would consider this to be a stupid question although it does have some merit. Let me explain it to you this way:


    Arguments from Deduction



    *Skip this if you know what a Deductive Argument is*

    This argument is Deductive, meaning that the way it works is that it is validated by the validation of the facts that proceed it. For instance:

    1) Bob is Lactose intolerant
    2) Bob drinks Milk
    3) Bob will get sick

    As you can see point 3) follows logically when point 1 and 2 are true. But you can argue against this by challenging point 1. Saying although Bob is Lactose intolerant he may have taken some Lactase supplements which would allow him to drink small amounts of milk without getting sick.

    And so it stands that the way to disprove a deductive argument is to challenge its premises.




    Explanatory things Explained




    1) We also know that Multiple people can work together to perform the same Single Jutsu (In Naruto's case he uses Clones):



    2) Hiruzen can use all 5 Nature types via Clones



    Therefore:

    3) Hiruzen can summon 5 Clones and use them in order to mold Chakra together in order to perform a single Jutsu, Onmyoudon.





    Begging the Questions




    So with that said we need to ask ourselves the question hiding in plain sight, which is:



    Hiruzen did seem to have specific knowledge on Element types and how they would react when put together. Now I think that Hiruzen has used Onmyoudon before, but has not used the Technique Obito was currently using which was composed of 4 Elements (Fire, Water, Earth and Wind) While Onmyoudon on the other hand is composed of 5 Elements including Lightning.

    Now lets take another look at something that I thought was strange:



    Now some people will look at this and see "I Have the power of the Ancestor" and say, well its obviously a technique the Sage used that was Documented... and in that you would be right, but what I find interesting is this part:

    That man is probably using a technique based on Onmyoudon...


    The best way to elaborate on this would be in basketball terms, Youve got Micheal Jordan who is the Best Basketball player in the world and then youve got Kobe Bryant who is arguable the 2nd Best basketball player. Now everyone knows that Kobe steals alot of Micheals moves but its JUST THAT... We dont say he is using a jumpshot that is based on what Micheal did, we say he is USING Micheal Jordans Technique.

    So it would make more sense for Tobirama to say "That man is using the Sage's Onmyoudon Technique" as oppose to saying he is using a technique based off of Onmyoudon. Which would imply that Onmyoudon and the Sage's Technique are not one and the same. So then where did this Onmyoudon come from? Hiruzen!




    Challenge




    Now the best challenge to this would be the notion that only those born into certain Ninja clans can use KKGs such a mixed nature types, but to that I say this:

    1) If I had said that Hiruzen could use all 5 Nature types 2 weeks ago you guys would be reacting the exact same way telling me that a ninja cant learn more than 2-3 Nature types based on Kakashi's statements. So we should keep an open mind when approaching what I am saying.

    2) People in alot of different villages have been able to use the same style: Kurotsuchi (Earth), Mei (Water) and Dodia (Lightning) have all been able to use Lava Style. But they are all from different nations. So are they all related? Do they all have really really distant relatives? But we also know that KKG's are diluted as bloodlines thin from breeding outside of the Clan. So if there extremely distant relatives are reponsible for their KKG then why wasnt it diluted?

    It is clear to me that there is room for ambiguity in regards to KKG's, we dont yet have all the facts.




    Conclusion




    Hiruzen invented Onmyoudon, which was supervised by Tobirama and his creative mind, once Hiruzen prompted him that Obito was likely using multiple Nature Types at once he realized that the "Power of his Ancestors" that Obito was referring to was identical to Onmyoudon.

    A wise man once said "All new news is old news happening to new people."




    UPDATE #1




    Lets think about something here because I am going to blow your minds:



    Now these scans show us one thing:

    1) Everyone is born with a specific type of Nature type, which the paper picks up on and reflects.

    But... KKG's require 2 Chakra types? And this is where we can draw 2 conclusions:

    1) A person is born with a KKG and 1 Nature type and must learn another one of the required styles to make use of the KKG.
    2) A person born with a KKG is born with 2 Nature Types and thus has an easier time using mixed Nature styles.

    I believe the Latter because Haku was roughly the same age as Sasuke if not younger. Yet Sasuke was not only born an Uchiha, giving him an advantage but also is fueled by the hatred of his brother killing his family thus driving him to improve quickly. So if point 1 is true then we must believe that Haku being younger than Sasuke was able to learn Water and Wind then Master Ice before Sasuke could even master Fire Style? Is that logical?

    Or perhaps he was able to learn Water and Wind quickly because he was born with them as Natural Styles making it easier for him to progress to Ice. Now to me that makes sense, but it also validates my theory in a sense.

    Because that means that using Mixed KKG isnt limited only to people born in specific families but it is open to anyone who can master them but is easier for people born into certain families as they start off with 2 Nature Types as oppose to just 1.

    And with this I debunk the main challenge to my deductions train of logic.




    UPDATE #2






    The main thing about these scans is that they explain that the difficulty in KKG's is using both styles at the same time... This same concept is compared to the difficulty that Naruto will have trying to learn Wind Rasengan since it too is difficult because one would have to do 2 different things at the same time, almost like looking left and right at the same time:



    So what we see is that Mixed Nature types and Using the Wind Rasengan are similar in the fact that one would have to do 2 different things at the same time. But Naruto found the answer:



    And here Naruto gets by this conundrum by having 1 Clone do one job while the other does the other job. Now just like the difficulty makes Wind Rasengan and Mixed Nature types similar, the solution to the problem would be similar as well. One could summon 1 Shadow Clone to control 1 Nature type and another to control the other Nature type.

    But Kakashi states something very important in the last scan:

    "That said it is because Naruto has Chakra and Shadow Clone that this method works... Apart from me The Fourth wouldnt be able to do it this way."

    This makes sense because each Clone would require a large portion of Chakra in order to mold it and Shadow Clones split your Chakra levels in half, so using them for a technique would be wasteful, Half your chakra + the cost of using the technique just to use 1 Mixed Nature technique. Most people wont have enough Chakra to spare on such a risky maneuver.

    So as you can see, this too debunks the idea of Mixed Nature types being limited only to people with KKG's.




    UPDATE #3




    Note that the above update exemplifies that although it is possible to use Mixed Nature types with Shadow Clones it is incredibly impractical. One would be giving up half their chakra supplies summoning the Shadow Clone, then even more Chakra using the technique and alot of focus to mold the Chakra. And even then the technique could be dodged or avoided.

    Now although most Mixed Nature types would be impractical in terms of usage, Hiruzen could use Onmyoudon as a means of ultimate defense. It would be impossible to use it offensively as 5 Clones moving in conjunction and manipulating it at the same time would be impossible. But sitting still and using it as a shield to deflect a powerful technique that would be unavoidable otherwise.... not so impossible,




    Enjoy the Read!
     
         
    Last edited by FearxDeath; 01-28-2014 at 11:38 PM.

  2. #2
    You will burn Veritas. Sir Blades of Chaos's Avatar
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    Re: [FEAR] Analysis: Can Hiruzen use Onmyoudon?

    This is just another level of ______________.
     
         

  3. #3
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    Re: [FEAR] Analysis: Can Hiruzen use Onmyoudon?

    Hiruzen did not create yin-yang release.
     
         

  4. #4
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    Re: [FEAR] Analysis: Can Hiruzen use Onmyoudon?

    No, as we have seen all Ninja can use all elements, but since that don't exactly have the affinity it take A LOT of more work to master those that you don't have an affinity to. Mastering all five to Kage level is legendary, however it takes a special blood selection to use multiple elements at once and utilize a special release. Sarutobi needs clones to each use an individual release
     
         

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    Re: [FEAR] Analysis: Can Hiruzen use Onmyoudon?

    First they say he can use rikudou Justu, now it's Inyouton, what's next?

    Is he going to start using Uchiha kinjustu?
     
         

  6. #6
    Senior Member The Orange Hokage's Avatar
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    Re: [FEAR] Analysis: Can Hiruzen use Onmyoudon?

    are those scans the viz translation?

    OT, well hiruzen should've recognized Onmyoudon. instead of guessing what it is :l
     
         

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    Re: [FEAR] Analysis: Can Hiruzen use Onmyoudon?

    I see how you see that it could be possible, but is VERY unlikely.
     
         

  8. #8
    BadWolf FearxDeath's Avatar
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    Re: [FEAR] Analysis: Can Hiruzen use Onmyoudon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Holy Cross View Post
    I see how you see that it could be possible, but is VERY unlikely.
    Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by SwiftNinja View Post
    are those scans the viz translation?

    OT, well hiruzen should've recognized Onmyoudon. instead of guessing what it is :l
    What Obito was using at the time was only 4 Nature Types, Onmyoudon is 5 Nature Types. And when he did begin to use Onmyoudon Tobirama quickly figured it out before Hiruzen could state it.

    Quote Originally Posted by VariaBossX View Post
    First they say he can use rikudou Justu, now it's Inyouton, what's next?

    Is he going to start using Uchiha kinjustu?
    Fair enough lol
     
         

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    Re: [FEAR] Analysis: Can Hiruzen use Onmyoudon?

    Quote Originally Posted by FearxDeath View Post
    Thanks!
    Nice find & observation too, btw. Something like this never cross my mind.
     
         

  10. #10
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    Re: [FEAR] Analysis: Can Hiruzen use Onmyoudon?

    This thread is terrible.

    There's "theories" and then there's "delusional theories"

    and i believe this falls in the Delusional theories category.
     
         

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    Re: [FEAR] Analysis: Can Hiruzen use Onmyoudon?

    Doubtful. Onmyoudon is more closely related to a higher form of Yin-Yang Release, rivaling Banbatsu Sozo. Notice how Minato said "it's even better than I would have imagine the powers in my dream". Obito essentially had the ability to thwart any Ninjutsu because he negated it through Yin-Yang Release; Onmyoudon. Similarly how Rikudou used Banbatsu Sozo, which is essentially the power of Dreams in a sense.
     
         

  12. #12
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    Re: [FEAR] Analysis: Can Hiruzen use Onmyoudon?

    Waaaaaaaaaait... I mean, it's possible, but... that would increase Hiruzen's hype to a whole new level, over 9000 if you know what I mean.

    Onmyoudon is like the inverse of Inyouton... the capacity to eliminate ninjutsu (chakra, and henceforth, stamina). Are you suggesting that Hiruzen has the capacity to perform jutsus of the level of the Sage of Six paths?


    You should remember that Obito said that when he became Jinchuuriki he could use another standards of ninjutsu. That was just when he became Jinchuuriki, I flattly can't believe Hiruzen can do that without an external source of power. Way too farfetched, I doubt it.
     
         

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    Re: [FEAR] Analysis: Can Hiruzen use Onmyoudon?

    I need to clear something up. Omnyudon isn't the combination of 5 elemental jutsu, the black sphere thing is, according to Hiruzen's explanation.

    Omnyudon was used when Obito erased Minato's arm and then Sasuke's Enton. You can argue that he used omnyudon with the black sphere bomb when he cut Minato's arm off, but when he erased Sasuke's Enton, he wasn't using his black spheres.
     
         

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    Re: [FEAR] Analysis: Can Hiruzen use Onmyoudon?

    To be able to use two different chakra natures simultaneously is Kekkai Genkai or a Tailed Beast ability. Yin-Yang release involves Yin release and Yang release.
     
         

  15. #15
    BadWolf FearxDeath's Avatar
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    "When I watch this boy, I
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    Re: [FEAR] Analysis: Can Hiruzen use Onmyoudon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirudora View Post
    Waaaaaaaaaait... I mean, it's possible, but... that would increase Hiruzen's hype to a whole new level, over 9000 if you know what I mean.

    Onmyoudon is like the inverse of Inyouton... the capacity to eliminate ninjutsu (chakra, and henceforth, stamina). Are you suggesting that Hiruzen has the capacity to perform jutsus of the level of the Sage of Six paths?


    You should remember that Obito said that when he became Jinchuuriki he could use another standards of ninjutsu. That was just when he became Jinchuuriki, I flattly can't believe Hiruzen can do that without an external source of power. Way too farfetched, I doubt it.
    I know I know, people are going to think of me as a crazy person for saying this and I probably lost alot of credibility. But this whole thing spawned when I re-read the chapter on Naruto learning Rasenshuriken. He couldnt add Wind Style to his sharingan, it was impossible, so what did he do? He used a Clone to do it and together they mastered a Jutsu that would have been more or less impossible for him to learn without it.

    All I am saying is that this:

    Naruto and the Hokage Squad shows that multple people working together can perform a Jutsu that would normally require 1 person to do.

    It doesnt seem to far fetched to me that Hiruzen was able to re-create Onmyoudon using clones much like Naruto was able to recreate Rasenshuriken.

    When Yamato is teaching Naruto how to learn Rasen... He states that he uses Wood Style by focusing Earth in one hand and Water in another while molding Chakra to use a Jutsu. In this case one clone would hold Earth in one body, Water in the Original Body and the mold chakra together when using the Jutsu.

    The theory is sound but I never posted it because I feared the backlash. But now that Hiruzen is breaking all preconcieved notions such as people only being able to learn 2-3 Nature types, I see no reason why he cant also combine them. I think the best example of how this would be possible is Kakashi's statement to Naruto when he tried to learn Rasen... He said "It is trying to look left and right at the same time." Which relates to KGG as well, trying to mold 2 Natures at the same time, Left and Right, Naruto got around this by having 1 Clone look left while the Original looks right.

    Note that I dont think this would be a good offensive technique, again most KKG's require constant molding in order to be effective. (Wood Style, Magnetism, Ice Style) its not something you just use once but rather something you use multiple times over the course of a fight until you gain an advantage. So with that said this would more than likely be a good defensive technique. Especially with Onmyoudon being able to negate ninjutsu. But the offensive capabilities is very limited.


    Quote Originally Posted by KingFlawz View Post
    This thread is terrible.

    There's "theories" and then there's "delusional theories"

    and i believe this falls in the Delusional theories category.
    I can tell by your condescending statement that you are a very important person, I am sorry to have wasted your time.
     
         

  16. #16
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    Re: [FEAR] Analysis: Can Hiruzen use Onmyoudon?

    The only jutsu hiruzen can't create is ramen jutsu
     
         

  17. #17
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    Re: [FEAR] Analysis: Can Hiruzen use Onmyoudon?

    Quote Originally Posted by FearxDeath View Post
    I know I know, people are going to think of me as a crazy person for saying this and I probably lost alot of credibility. But this whole thing spawned when I re-read the chapter on Naruto learning Rasenshuriken. He couldnt add Wind Style to his sharingan, it was impossible, so what did he do? He used a Clone to do it and together they mastered a Jutsu that would have been more or less impossible for him to learn without it.
    Rasengan*
    Quote Originally Posted by FearxDeath View Post
    I
    All I am saying is that this:

    Naruto and the Hokage Squad shows that multple people working together can perform a Jutsu that would normally require 1 person to do.

    It doesnt seem to far fetched to me that Hiruzen was able to re-create Onmyoudon using clones much like Naruto was able to recreate Rasenshuriken.

    When Yamato is teaching Naruto how to learn Rasen... He states that he uses Wood Style by focusing Earth in one hand and Water in another while molding Chakra to use a Jutsu. In this case one clone would hold Earth in one body, Water in the Original Body and the mold chakra together when using the Jutsu.

    The theory is sound but I never posted it because I feared the backlash. But now that Hiruzen is breaking all preconcieved notions such as people only being able to learn 2-3 Nature types, I see no reason why he cant also combine them. I think the best example of how this would be possible is Kakashi's statement to Naruto when he tried to learn Rasen... He said "It is trying to look left and right at the same time." Which relates to KGG as well, trying to mold 2 Natures at the same time, Left and Right, Naruto got around this by having 1 Clone look left while the Original looks right.

    Note that I dont think this would be a good offensive technique, again most KKG's require constant molding in order to be effective. (Wood Style, Magnetism, Ice Style) its not something you just use once but rather something you use multiple times over the course of a fight until you gain an advantage. So with that said this would more than likely be a good defensive technique. Especially with Onmyoudon being able to negate ninjutsu. But the offensive capabilities is very limited.
    I think creating a jutsu based on an element has its own difficulty.
    Creating a jutsu based of 5 elements... No, really. Fear, I know it is possible, but I don't see Hiruzen as the one that could perform that trick.

    Naruto has more possibilities awakening the Rinnegan than Hiruzen using Onmyoudon. Both possibilities, but the first one has more historic data in favour.
     
         

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    Senior Member Uchiha Samater's Avatar
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    Re: [FEAR] Analysis: Can Hiruzen use Onmyoudon?

    Hiruzen was just a genius

    It takes many years to master the elements, and it seems he did so in his life time, which is truly incredible


    Naruto can cheat so to speak, due to his ability to use clones in training, [refer back to rasen shurkien training]


    however using Onmyoudon is something else
     
         

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    Re: [FEAR] Analysis: Can Hiruzen use Onmyoudon?

    No you need either a special blood selection or something else (Ten Tails) to use multiple elements at once.

    This thread is absolutely absurd.

    Other characters can use multiple elements but that doesn't mean they can use them at once.
     
         

  20. #20
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    Re: [FEAR] Analysis: Can Hiruzen use Onmyoudon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha Samater View Post
    Hiruzen was just a genius

    It takes many years to master the elements, and it seems he did so in his life time, which is truly incredible


    Naruto can cheat so to speak, due to his ability to use clones in training, [refer back to rasen shurkien training]


    however using Onmyoudon is something else

    Hiruzen became Hokage when he looked like he was 18 or something. He must have been powerful enough for Tobirama to pick him for a reason. How do we know Hiruzen wasn't born with more than one chakra nature...cutting down his training time substantially.


    Quote Originally Posted by saw2097 View Post
    No you need either a special blood selection or something else (Ten Tails) to use multiple elements at once.

    This thread is absolutely absurd.

    Other characters can use multiple elements but that doesn't mean they can use them at once.
    ^ this dumbest statement ever, Did you read the manga recently Hiruzen used 5 clones to use all five chakra natures....

    ----------------

    You are all going over board with what Fear is suggesting and putting words in his mouth. He is not suggesting that Hiruzen can use these techniques with impunity. He specifically stated that it would be purely defensive in nature as it would require 5 clones to combine the various chakra natures as Hiruzen himself cannot do this inside his body. Hence with 5 clones being the requirement to activate such a technique its obviously not a easy offensive weapon. Most likely used as a momentary static shield. Hiruzen also stated that Obito could easily sustain it. Something Hiruzen might have had trouble with.

    It would also allow Hiruzen to realistically defend against Onoki's attacks which from what I can see at the moment that he has no defense against. If we take Hiruzen vs Onoki right now without Onmyoudon we know who comes out on top (certainly doesn't make sense to call Hiruzen god of shinobi does it). It also makes sense why he got the title god of shinobi if he could recreate some of the Sage's techniques.

    We have seen Naruto use clones to handle the various processes in the creation of his jutsu. For example Futon Rasenshuriken, he needed two clones. That was three separate individuals handling the creation of one jutsu. So it is possible.

    Is it really so much of a jump to believe that Hiruzen got curious and decided to try and combine all 5 chakra natures at once? And ended up with a black goo that could own any ninjutsu? Tbh I believe its possible.

    Focusing on Onoki again, Hiruzen must have faced him once or twice over the years and to survive against such attacks, which really should be beyond someone like Hiruzen who seems to have no particular special abilities apart from charka natures and ninja skills. He must have developed a counter measure against Onoki's jutsu. He obviously was familiar with Onoki's jutsu which combined 3 chakra natures when analyzing Obito's jutsu. He also mentioned how difficult it was to keep its shape. He seems to be vary familiar with the technique all things considered.

    The way Hiruzen talked about Onmyoudon and the fact that Tobirama put a name to a jutsu LONG LONG past suggests that Fear is correct in this theory.

    So if we assume Hiruzen must have created a counter measure to Onoki's jutsu he must have created a collaborative defensive jutsu with at least 3 or more charka natures to effectively eliminate Jinton.

    I'll put my money where my mouth is and endorse this theory


    ....Also his outfit is also a good reason to believe this
     
         
    Last edited by valandil988; 01-28-2014 at 12:13 PM.

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    Re: [FEAR] Analysis: Can Hiruzen use Onmyoudon?

    Hiruzen can do anything, but he just never does it no matter how bad the situation is.
     
         

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    Re: [FEAR] Analysis: Can Hiruzen use Onmyoudon?

    As others have said, he lacks mastery over ying-yang release, which I believe is essential for the SO6P technique Obito was using. Hell, you could even argue that that jutsu was a product of the Jubi, thus making it near impossible for Hiruzen to learn.
     
         

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    Re: [FEAR] Analysis: Can Hiruzen use Onmyoudon?

    Just like kakashi said, just because a shinobi can use two elements ( lets say water and earth ) does NOT mean they can combine the two to create another ( wood release ). Shinobis that can is because of some form of blood line limit. Granted obito doesn't have a bloodline limit ( relating to onmyoudon i mean...obviously sharingan counts as one ) but he is the exceptional exception amongst exceptions given that he was the jinchuuriki of the narutoverse god. So no I don't see it as possible.
     
         

  24. #24
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    Re: [FEAR] Analysis: Can Hiruzen use Onmyoudon?

    Quote Originally Posted by B00m View Post
    As others have said, he lacks mastery over ying-yang release, which I believe is essential for the SO6P technique Obito was using. Hell, you could even argue that that jutsu was a product of the Jubi, thus making it near impossible for Hiruzen to learn.
    Question: What do you define as "Yin-Yang release" your just saying that without knowing what it actually is.

    Believe it or not Yin-Yang release is just chakra. Yin + Yang using them separately and together. Onmyoudon is a Ninjutsu which uses chakra to function, its a nature release.

    What I think your are actually meaning is the Banbutsu Sozo or Creation of All Things jutsu that the S06P can use. Which is closer to reality manipulation than simple Ninjutsu. But don't deceive yourself it also uses chakra to create things from nothing. Using Yin to create the form and Yang to give it life.

    Onmyoudon just counters all known Ninjutsu that uses less than five chakra natures. Thats how it "turns all ninjutsu to nothing" it can't do this with senjutsu which is different from normal chakra.

    Quote Originally Posted by kageking View Post
    Just like kakashi said, just because a shinobi can use two elements ( lets say water and earth ) does NOT mean they can combine the two to create another ( wood release ). Shinobis that can is because of some form of blood line limit. Granted obito doesn't have a bloodline limit ( relating to onmyoudon i mean...obviously sharingan counts as one ) but he is the exceptional exception amongst exceptions given that he was the jinchuuriki of the narutoverse god. So no I don't see it as possible.
    Fear didnt say that Hiruzen had a bloodline he said he could use 4 other clones alongside himself to create a collaborative version of Onmyoudon. He never said that Hiruzen was molding all five natures inside his body.

    Read it again.
     
         
    Last edited by valandil988; 01-28-2014 at 06:45 PM.

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    Re: [FEAR] Analysis: Can Hiruzen use Onmyoudon?

    OP this is what I think....

    Joking. Decent theory, could be plausible
     
         
    Last edited by moe6142; 01-28-2014 at 07:11 PM.

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