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  1. #21
    Hokage Byron123's Avatar
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    Re: Between this World and the Next

    It has literally been months since the last time I read such a good theory! Bravo! A thing that you might want to add abotu Yama is that in the ripping one's tongue because of lying is something that has also been shown in the naruto anime, if not also in the manga.

    I'll quote narutopedia: "After answers are given, the King of Hell will unzip its mouth to release tendril-like arms and would draw out an apparition of the victim's life force energy in the form of an enlarged tongue. The King of Hell would then proceed to pass its judgement. If the person was lying or refused to answer the questions, the King of Hell would remove their tongue and consume it, apparently killing them. However, if they told the truth, they would be spared, although left extremely exhausted."

     
         

  2. #22
    Second Six Paths Eternal Mangekyo Sojobo's Avatar
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    Re: Between this World and the Next

    Very nice thread .
     
         

  3. #23
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    Re: Between this World and the Next

    Amazing as always, I loved reading it. Sparks already covered what I would have made a comment on (Sakumo's black zone and Rin's white zone), other than that I can see nothing that was left out and I completely agree with everything. Awesome job bro!

    Quote Originally Posted by Byron123 View Post
    A thing that you might want to add abotu Yama is that in the ripping one's tongue because of lying is something that has also been shown in the naruto anime, if not also in the manga.

    Nice find, I looked for it in the manga (during Pain vs. Konoha) but I couldn't find a panel of it :/
     
         

  4. #24
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    Re: Between this World and the Next

    Quote Originally Posted by Gokuy View Post
    It's kind of like the afterlife in DBZ, and King Yama infact does judge who goes where. You made good information. Excellent theory, Vega!
    Thanks and Precisely!
    Quote Originally Posted by The Orange Hokage View Post
    Very awesome, I agree.
    Thanks Your ava is also good
    Quote Originally Posted by adeshina365 View Post
    Excellent thread.
    Nice to know that we still have some excellent theory/thread makers with most of us in retirement.
    Thanks lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMist View Post
    Excellent theory vega! It was a long read, but Kishi might have gotten some inspiration from the stuff you said.
    Thank you
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagatō View Post
    Haha very true that guy is just annoying!!
    OT: Amazing Theory!
    Thank you
    Quote Originally Posted by Taimaidamshoo View Post
    How ironic would it be if Kishi simply doesn't put much thought behind his storytelling as you think and is just plainly focused on telling an entertaining tale. And then here you are slaving over theories and trying to reason out something of pure entertainment that probably won't ever have an official explanation.

    Makes me super sigh for these threads if that's the truth.

    But A+ for the thought process!
    lol, and thanks!
    Quote Originally Posted by mohdzarif View Post
    Excellent thread.

    Not gonna lie, this kind of threads really makes me feel inadequate . I wish I have the desire to delve into Japanese myth or read a lot.

    Anyway, your theory makes lots of sense.
    lol thanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Minatoxx View Post
    This thread is why I like narutobase , bravo ★Vega
    Thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by kotori View Post
    Nicely done. Id like to add these.

    Hagoromo chakra also travelled as an entity being unsettled what became of ninshu [x] & the feud between sons.[x] [x]
    Obito was unsettled about redeeming his crimes and forced his way back from Ame no Ukihashi.
    Asura and Indra have been transmigrating their chakra years after their death to new hosts restless
    of the difference between their contradicting ideals [x]
    It's like limbo ; restless between two worlds coinciding with the Christian literature limbo-edge of hell.

    Altogether , great thread.
    Good points, added to the OP

    Quote Originally Posted by obikage View Post
    nice read. i agree rin and obito were on a bridge.
    kishi has been hinting at limbo type thiings. madars limbo and him saying to obito hes inbetween this world and the next.
    if that world is connected by chakra, you think kaguya would try to get there for more chakra?
    Thanks! You actually bring up a very excellent point, I hadn't thought of that lol. I could definitely see Kaguya trying to escape into the After-life and possibly a confrontation occur with the Reaper there, as they have uncanny resemblance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparks View Post
    I detect someone who didn't read.

    OT: Amazing Theory! I like the possibility that Obito's placement in between the planes of Heaven and Hell is the way he was able to return to Kakashi.

    Perhaps the differences in the locations of Sakumo and Rin have to do with the manner of their deaths. Sakumo took his own life when he could no longer stand the vilification of the Leaf due to his abandonment of a mission to save his comrades. He likely regretted leaving his young son alone in such a way, and this might explain why his location is black in color. Rin, on the other hand, is in a white plane likely due to her sacrificing her life in order to protect the Leaf; she didn't die with regrets and just wanted to continue looking over Obito, hence her watching down from the floating bridge of Heaven.

    I find the point about the Uzumaki clan creating the Reaper Death Seal in order to mimic the abilities of the Naraka Path quite interesting. I remember that when Orochimaru and Taka went to the Uzumaki's Noh Mask Hall to get the RDS mask, there were black flames decorating the bottom of the shrine X. These are the same flames that you mentioned appear whenever the King of Hell is summoned with the Naraka Path, further supporting a connection between the two.

    And now that I think about it, Chiyo's resurrection jutsu also mirrors Obito's statement in the last chapter that "Chakra is the power which connects the two worlds". Her jutsu (Kishō Tensei) worked by converting chakra into life force in order to return the soul of the deceased from the afterlife back to his/her body. Her chakra acted as an intermediary to connect the worlds of the living and the dead.
    You bring up a very excellent point Sparks, added to the OP I never even thought about the Chiyo connection lol, and the black flames is another good Point. As you said, perhaps those flames, the King of Hell, and maybe even Amaterasu are all linked together.

    Quote Originally Posted by narutoshippudenworld View Post
    Very Nice theory, I knew about the both spirit world and physical world are connected by the Lifeforce that can easily be grasp in other word, it's Lifeforce filled with Chakra.. It should be no surprising that Obito comes back as a spirit because we've seen with Naruto&Sasuke reincarnation/incarnation that would migrate the Chakras to the next successor, and we've seen with Hagoromo since he stored the chakra as well as Minato&Kushina inside Naruto.


    With the Edo Tensie it's reverse because in order to bring back, it needs the chakra/lifeforce (Spirit) from the afterlife that would need to fill in the vessels on the person you want to restore as long you have someone to sacrifice.


    However what's impressive is that you pointed out the Shinto mythology with regarding Ame-no-ukihashi (bridge)and the sage of 6th path with human, ashura realm, etc.


    FearX made a theory about the physical and spiritual world and chakra with regarding Kaguya Goals.

    http://narutobase.net/forums/showthread.php?t=559669


    Since this was clearly proven this chapter, this gave more possibility for Neji Spirit to comeback which was foreshadowed by Hinata, especially this renowned "Phoenix" means rebirth. This Symbolism have clear indication that Neji will somehow emerge as a "Phoenix" ?? Considering Kishimoto havn't explained Backstory with Kaguya& Hamura and the Hyuga Curse seal which could tie in to the Hyuga role.

    So perhaps Neji could possibily a lost soul just before he pass on.
    Thanks! and you bring up a very great point about Neji! I hadn't even considered that tbh, I think Hamura holds the secrets there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Derp Obito View Post
    Excellent theory, I think that the afterlife in Naruto is also partly inspired from Buddhism: Edo Tensei's English name is Summon: Impure World Reincarnation, the material world is considered the impure world in contrast with the Pure Lands where enlightened souls depart to after death.
    Thanks, and I agree with you Now Kishi just needs to Explain the tablet connection.
    Quote Originally Posted by kazekaine View Post
    Great Theory Vega . Is it possible that its the Kamui ability that made Obito move between worlds?
    Thanks! I think you're right, I think Kamui was the reason Obito was able to do so. The thing with Indra/Ashura was that their Chakra/genes were being passed down the ancestry, while Obito was an unique person. So I guess if he wanted he could essentially continue to possess people and never die

    Quote Originally Posted by Ira View Post
    Interesting read. The idea of different level of consciousness, plane of existence or parallel universe are pretty common in eastern philosophies.

    I would just put some more details of a related school to chew on:

    Buddhism suggests that the alleviation of suffering was far more important, and that focusing on the goal of ultimate salvation. For focusing on goal would only lead to more attachments, and therefore more suffering. Heaven and hell are not permanent states either and people can leave them when their karma which lead them there is over. Tibetan Buddhism includes Bardo where self stays till next rebirth (Buddhism do not have even sould technically as we interpret it. Just a consciousness of self).



    -Wiki.
    Thanks, I like what you mentioned about regarding the Buddhist school of thought. And Bardo reminded me a lot about Hagoromo and how he travels to meet the reincarnates as well. The alleviation of suffering also fits in nicely in allowing the souls to meet up (kak/Sakumo/etc.) to get rid of that burden. Good point

    Quote Originally Posted by Byron123 View Post
    It has literally been months since the last time I read such a good theory! Bravo! A thing that you might want to add abotu Yama is that in the ripping one's tongue because of lying is something that has also been shown in the naruto anime, if not also in the manga.

    I'll quote narutopedia: "After answers are given, the King of Hell will unzip its mouth to release tendril-like arms and would draw out an apparition of the victim's life force energy in the form of an enlarged tongue. The King of Hell would then proceed to pass its judgement. If the person was lying or refused to answer the questions, the King of Hell would remove their tongue and consume it, apparently killing them. However, if they told the truth, they would be spared, although left extremely exhausted."

    Thanks
    Ah good point indeed!
    I looked in the manga, and found this:

    I'll add them to the OP
    (It's also interesting to note that the King of Hell ate the tongues/souls the same way the Reaper does.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Magatsu Izanagi View Post
    Amazing as always, I loved reading it. Sparks already covered what I would have made a comment on (Sakumo's black zone and Rin's white zone), other than that I can see nothing that was left out and I completely agree with everything. Awesome job bro!


    Nice find, I looked for it in the manga (during Pain vs. Konoha) but I couldn't find a panel of it :/
    Thanks!
    And check above, those are it right?
     
         

  5. #25
    Hokage Byron123's Avatar
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    Re: Between this World and the Next

    Quote Originally Posted by Vega View Post

    Thanks and Precisely!

    Thanks Your ava is also good

    Thanks lol.

    Thank you

    Thank you

    lol, and thanks!

    lol thanks.

    Thanks


    Good points, added to the OP


    Thanks! You actually bring up a very excellent point, I hadn't thought of that lol. I could definitely see Kaguya trying to escape into the After-life and possibly a confrontation occur with the Reaper there, as they have uncanny resemblance.

    You bring up a very excellent point Sparks, added to the OP I never even thought about the Chiyo connection lol, and the black flames is another good Point. As you said, perhaps those flames, the King of Hell, and maybe even Amaterasu are all linked together.


    Thanks! and you bring up a very great point about Neji! I hadn't even considered that tbh, I think Hamura holds the secrets there.


    Thanks, and I agree with you Now Kishi just needs to Explain the tablet connection.

    Thanks! I think you're right, I think Kamui was the reason Obito was able to do so. The thing with Indra/Ashura was that their Chakra/genes were being passed down the ancestry, while Obito was an unique person. So I guess if he wanted he could essentially continue to possess people and never die


    Thanks, I like what you mentioned about regarding the Buddhist school of thought. And Bardo reminded me a lot about Hagoromo and how he travels to meet the reincarnates as well. The alleviation of suffering also fits in nicely in allowing the souls to meet up (kak/Sakumo/etc.) to get rid of that burden. Good point


    Thanks
    Ah good point indeed!
    I looked in the manga, and found this:

    I'll add them to the OP
    (It's also interesting to note that the King of Hell ate the tongues/souls the same way the Reaper does.)

    Thanks!
    And check above, those are it right?
    In anime in fact Yama's connection became clearer because there instead of having both of the 2 shinobi lying, one was saying the truth so his tongue was spared and so he did as well.
     
         

  6. #26
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    Re: Between this World and the Next

    Quote Originally Posted by Taimaidamshoo
    How ironic would it be if Kishi simply doesn't put much thought behind his storytelling as you think and is just plainly focused on telling an entertaining tale. And then here you are slaving over theories and trying to reason out something of pure entertainment that probably won't ever have an official explanation.

    Makes me super sigh for these threads if that's the truth.

    But A+ for the thought process!
    Well I doubt Kishi is thinking about philosophy exactly the same way we are even remotely. So I agree with you. But the ideas do not come from vacuum. Not normally at least.

    The extensive use of mythological symbolism used all over the manga indicates he is familiar of the concept and while creating the verse he is borrowing heavily from it. Description, detailing in art or fiction needs a visualization of how things should be along with skills using the pen to put it on paper. If Kishi is making this up himself and somehow it matches with Buddhist philosophy to this extent then we have a new Buddha on our hand.. That would be just too much. Even Siddhartha used previous existing philosophy as base for his own thoughts.

    So we get to have fun while discussing how he is using it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vega View Post

    Thanks! I think you're right, I think Kamui was the reason Obito was able to do so. The thing with Indra/Ashura was that their Chakra/genes were being passed down the ancestry, while Obito was an unique person. So I guess if he wanted he could essentially continue to possess people and never die
    .............


    .............

    Thanks, I like what you mentioned about regarding the Buddhist school of thought. And Bardo reminded me a lot about Hagoromo and how he travels to meet the reincarnates as well. The alleviation of suffering also fits in nicely in allowing the souls to meet up (kak/Sakumo/etc.) to get rid of that burden. Good point

    [/FONT]
    I think Obito resolved most of his personal issues so the world is not going to bind him for that long as Indra or Ashura. He returned because he left team 7 and universe in a situation he helped in creating. He chose Kakashi to channelize his chakra because he was connected to him. If these people manage to fix the problem he can move on more easily to next level.

    Off topic:

    [mini rant]Only disappointment is that whole team 7 got powers handed down to them to keep up except Sakura. Poor girl. She tries so hard but her skills are all her own earning and nothing is ever free for her.[/minirant]


    Yeah I ended up reading Bardo for a while yesterday. Sot6P definitely fits in the description. I didn't add more to it because of lack of time to arrange thoughts properly. I guess he couldn't move on leaving his sons in that condition either. His initial interaction with Naruto indicated he had been watching but hadn't been actually been able to find a way to connect till this transmigration.
     
         
    Last edited by Ira; 08-09-2014 at 05:05 AM.

  7. #27
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    Re: Between this World and the Next

    Very good read, thanks for sharing your theory !
     
         

  8. #28
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    Re: Between this World and the Next

    It'd be interesting to see Yama developed into something more than a technique. Yama is a deity but in a lot of the legends he starts off as a man. He tends to be more of a subordinate to other deities who have a wider purview over life and death. Naraka or hell is one of the six realms that you can be sent to in the afterlife all of which serve as purgatories as you move along the path towards enlightenment. Hell is the one you go to if you've been really bad but it tends not to be forever.

    I wrote something similar on Seishi, Kannon and Amida who I think tie in with a lot of the imagery for other figures. Seishi is a cognate of Shiva and is master of the Naraka, Preta and Animal Realms. If there is a part 3 then I think we'll see a lot more of all the gods / buddhas / bodhisattva.

    Good read

    BTW - I think that other building from your last thread looks like Wat Arun (it ties in with some of the other imagery in the manga and would serve as a counterbalance to Hagia Sophia) - If the imagery is at all important, that is.
     
         

  9. #29
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    Re: Between this World and the Next

    Great Theory bro awesome
     
         

  10. #30
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    Re: Between this World and the Next

    The references to mythology are nice but not needed. One can simply call where Obito and Kakashi went to Limbo. The explanation for where they went/ who they met/ what they looked like can be explained as their personal desire, not being selected by another power. Since they had strong feelings for a person, if that person was still in limbo, they'd make their way to them naturally.

    As for the King of hell, I have strong reason to believe that he dispersed life forces to the individuals and not souls. Pain simply killed all those people, he didn't store their souls. All the King of Hell did was return lifeforces to their bodies and the soul automatically returned to them as a result. If the King of hell kept Kakashi's soul, then he wouldn't have been able to go to Limbo at all.
     
         

  11. #31
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    Re: Between this World and the Next

    Quote Originally Posted by Ira View Post
    I think Obito resolved most of his personal issues so the world is not going to bind him for that long as Indra or Ashura. He returned because he left team 7 and universe in a situation he helped in creating. He chose Kakashi to channelize his chakra because he was connected to him. If these people manage to fix the problem he can move on more easily to next level.

    Yeah I ended up reading Bardo for a while yesterday. Sot6P definitely fits in the description. I didn't add more to it because of lack of time to arrange thoughts properly. I guess he couldn't move on leaving his sons in that condition either. His initial interaction with Naruto indicated he had been watching but hadn't been actually been able to find a way to connect till this transmigration.
    Yeah good point, I agree that Obito had solved everything he needed so he could move on as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Leinad Sotam View Post
    Very good read, thanks for sharing your theory !
    Thanks
    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbit Teth View Post
    It'd be interesting to see Yama developed into something more than a technique. Yama is a deity but in a lot of the legends he starts off as a man. He tends to be more of a subordinate to other deities who have a wider purview over life and death. Naraka or hell is one of the six realms that you can be sent to in the afterlife all of which serve as purgatories as you move along the path towards enlightenment. Hell is the one you go to if you've been really bad but it tends not to be forever.

    I wrote something similar on Seishi, Kannon and Amida who I think tie in with a lot of the imagery for other figures. Seishi is a cognate of Shiva and is master of the Naraka, Preta and Animal Realms. If there is a part 3 then I think we'll see a lot more of all the gods / buddhas / bodhisattva.

    Good read

    BTW - I think that other building from your last thread looks like Wat Arun (it ties in with some of the other imagery in the manga and would serve as a counterbalance to Hagia Sophia) - If the imagery is at all important, that is.
    Thank you, and what you said is true which makes me wonder if there are other such figures waiting in the NV as well
    Ah I see those castles, I never really meant to say that they were those specific buildings but just that there's many buildings that look alike them, but this Wat Arun sounds interesting, I'll have to read more about it
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyuuga Neji 18 View Post
    Great Theory bro awesome
    Thanks
    Quote Originally Posted by Floydical View Post
    The references to mythology are nice but not needed. One can simply call where Obito and Kakashi went to Limbo. The explanation for where they went/ who they met/ what they looked like can be explained as their personal desire, not being selected by another power. Since they had strong feelings for a person, if that person was still in limbo, they'd make their way to them naturally.

    As for the King of hell, I have strong reason to believe that he dispersed life forces to the individuals and not souls. Pain simply killed all those people, he didn't store their souls. All the King of Hell did was return lifeforces to their bodies and the soul automatically returned to them as a result. If the King of hell kept Kakashi's soul, then he wouldn't have been able to go to Limbo at all.
    I usually include the myths just as some extra stuff, but I see what you mean. I also pondered whether its pure desire that allowed Obito to meet Rin, and I thought perhaps a little of both desire and Yama, but what you said could be true as well.

    Regarding the King of Hell I meant that he is capable of such but yes I agree with you that he returned their life-forces, I just feel he's capable of much more
     
         

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    Re: Between this World and the Next

    The amount of historical references, you give in your threads never cease to amaze me. :Claps:
     
         

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    Re: Between this World and the Next

    VIZ Scans (Credits to iNoto) confirms some of my suspicions, will add this to the OP

    Obito confirms him and Rin are meeting in an area that will allow them to move on to the next world.

    Obito confirms that he is about to go on to the next world again with Kakashi

    Chakra was the medium to exploit to link the worlds (referred here as energy)
     
         

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    Re: Between this World and the Next

    Very interesting and compelling theory.
     
         

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    Re: Between this World and the Next

    Nice theory, Took some time to read it but it is good. This theory can come true partly.
     
         

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    Re: Between this World and the Next

    Quote Originally Posted by Flaming Amaterasu View Post
    Very interesting and compelling theory.
    Thanks
    Quote Originally Posted by johnny335704 View Post
    Nice theory, Took some time to read it but it is good. This theory can come true partly.
    Thanks
     
         

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    Re: Between this World and the Next

    Ok, I read your thread..And in a way or another I agree with the connections you put. The links are close to perfectly done. And this might even be the most possible reason. But I have my own theory of this, that I will be making once I fully return. So you can see my points. The fact that I will make the thread, that my thoughts are simply to enormous to be expressed in a simple comment.
     
         

  18. #38
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    Re: Between this World and the Next

    Quote Originally Posted by Confucius View Post
    Interesting. However, I thinking adding in your assumptions on "moving on" and Yama or whatever was a bit farfetched.
    Nothing farfetched was even remotely brought up
    verything connected either literally,fireguratively or symbolically
     
         

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    Re: Between this World and the Next

    Amazing read that adds a whole new layer of depth to the series and gives me soemthing else to ponder about
    You made the expansive universe even larger yet connected more than ever.
     
         

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    Re: Between this World and the Next

    Quote Originally Posted by Floydical View Post
    The references to mythology are nice but not needed. One can simply call where Obito and Kakashi went to Limbo. The explanation for where they went/ who they met/ what they looked like can be explained as their personal desire, not being selected by another power. Since they had strong feelings for a person, if that person was still in limbo, they'd make their way to them naturally.

    As for the King of hell, I have strong reason to believe that he dispersed life forces to the individuals and not souls. Pain simply killed all those people, he didn't store their souls. All the King of Hell did was return lifeforces to their bodies and the soul automatically returned to them as a result. If the King of hell kept Kakashi's soul, then he wouldn't have been able to go to Limbo at all.
    Kabuto already mentioned durin the naruto/bee vs nahato/itachi fight that nagato was going to store their souls

    Not life force which is only but one half of the soul
     
         

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