[Discussion] Rasengan Contradiction |Clones|

[Modaro]

I have a problem with naruto Saying he needs a clone to do rasengan.

1. THE SHADOW CLONE TECHNIQUE
This Technique divides the user into equal copies of him/herself right down to chakra. The clones can move independently from the original naruto's will but does not have separate personalities. Therefore Naruto will think of a plan or strategy and his clone will have that same plan to carry out. They are basically and simply another naruto, not tied to one mind, they can think for themselves.
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Now the reason Naruto need his clone to do rasengan is because he could not concentrate on both shape manipulation, compressing the chakra at the same time. So basically it is two separate naruto's doing the same technique, Two Heads in the same Hole.

When Naruto had the one tailed cloak at the valley of end he did a one handed rasengan, kishi didn't tell us how he did it so here is what I think. Sasuke couldn't predict the movements of both naruto and the the chakra cloak, he stated "it was like the chakra had a mind of its own." Well yes he was correct, the 9tails was in control, while naruto stile had some control. The fox was the next mind/head focusing chakra in that situation helping to preform the rasengan.
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2. The TAILED BEAST BOMB
It was said that this move was the inspiration for rasengan having the same, rotation and compression principles. Therefore Naruto should use clones, but he was told not to use clones.

Instead he was forced to create chakra arms from the Rikodu cloak.

Because Naruto is controlling the fox chakra it should still prove too difficult a task since there is only one mind involved in making the beast bomb, the same dumb naruto mind that could not handle the overload of rotation and compression in the beginning of that same manga. How the hell all of a sudden is it that he is able to COMPRESSION, ROTATION, by himself. I mean all along it was too much load on his brain to preform two tasks at once so he created another copy of himself so it can do the other task for him and ease the overload on his tiny brain.

I BELIEVE THAT THIS WAS A MAJOR CONTRADICTION IN MANGA

[-The Agent-]

Naruto just needed an extra pair of arms to focus on the rotation and power so he could focus on containment of the chakra... The Kyuubi cloak has that extra pair of arms needed for the rotation and power... He doesn't necessarily need 2 minds to make a Rasengan...

[kisamexRocks]

Well if the cloak enables him to produce an extra set of hands that's all he really needs. Since he might have the foxes help in doing the technique with him. I'm sure it will be explained later int he manga about how he is able to do it. But I think since he gained the foxes power(not fully) and he uses the cloak, he has a greater increase in performing 2 things at once, whether or not he is doing it himself with only 1 mind, I think gaining the foxes power he could simply, focus on the Rotation, and then once it's completed he could then focus on the compression. That could be the case since he is having a hard time getting the ratio together.

[Perkele311]

Well I think learning how to do it one handed is not unreasonable for Rasengan.. Its about time he is forced to learn it that way.. If he had FTG... It would be sickness.

[NarutoBases Local Troll]

Naruto just needed an extra pair of arms to focus on the rotation and power so he could focus on containment of the chakra... The Kyuubi cloak has that extra pair of arms needed for the rotation and power... He doesn't necessarily need 2 minds to make a Rasengan...

Agreed. Failed thread is fail.:P

[Reiji Shikoske]

well remember that naruto only used the second clone to rotate the chakra while he compressed it so in turn he just couldent multitask

[-Hades-]

Ok to clear things up:
1. Naruto can't make a single handed rasengan because the jutsu is the highest point of shape manipulation. It is extremely hard to gather high amounts of chakra, add roatation, compress it into a ball and then maintain it's shape.
When he did the one handed rasengan in kyubi mode it was because he was using his chakra for power and rotation and the cloak provided the shape... it acted like a shield/capsule which compressed the chakra.
It's not that his mind cannot handle it, it is just physically impossible for naruto to do that with just one hand so he uses the shadow clones to either add rotation while he maintains its shape and power, or to maintain the shape while he focuses on power and rotation.
2.Why he can do this now? well because of the way he uses those chakra hands. He has enough points to release chakra from in order to create it... they act just like his clones hands... he does the same thing basically ... splits the tasks of making the rasengan into power and rotation and shape.

[narutodrama]

ill try to explain it a bit, when naruto makes a rasengan he needs a clone cuz he needs basicly a 2nd chackra to do it, he cant compress and rotate the rasengan with the same chackra, it's like you want to walk to the left and to the right at the same time, he just cant make the same chackra source to do 2 things at the same time, doing a clone (another chackra source) he can do it while 1 chackra does compression the other chackra does rotation, thats why the 4th has need years to do it 1 handed it's extremly difficult to do 2 different things with the same chackra, naruto was also hindered by the kyubi chackra that is now solved i think but he still needs aggressive training to do a 1 handed rasengan

[MannySoopa]

the funny thing is you would think that since the clones return their experience back to Naruto...that he should know without using clones HOW to create the rasengan without extra hands...

just like how he cuts training into half the time by using clones or uses clones for recon

[maldoror]

Ok to clear things up:
It's not that his mind cannot handle it, it is just physically impossible for naruto to do that with just one hand so he uses the shadow clones to either add rotation while he maintains its shape and power, or to maintain the shape while he focuses on power and rotation.

Refrain from using word "impossible". It is very possible for him to make rasengan without clones nor fancy cloak hands. Jiraiya and Minato and even Kakashi can perform it single handed without clones, not even second hand.

Don't forget his first rasengan training and why naruto needs clones to make rasengan. It is just because he is dumb.

About the OP. I see a logical error in his current rasengan training but not the way you described it. He doesn't really "MUST HAVE" 4 hands to make rasengan because of the reason i said above. Yet when talking to Bee, he puts it like it is something that is needed for the technique itself but it is not.

[-Hades-]

When i said "impossible" i was talking about Naruto at this moment, with his current powers/skills. It took a genius, a prodigy, it's creator 3 years to completely master it.
The reason why he can not do it is not because he is dumb, it is because he had other things to worry about than training to do a 1 handed rasengan... although with his clones he would have mastered it in a couple of days, but why bother

[naruto sennin]

not really a contradiction he just need two sets of arms cause he cant look left and right at the same time so to speak.

[hlompho]

this theory well and truelly fails!!!:flaw::P

[Modaro]

Agreed. Failed thread is fail.:P

You fail in life buddy

[Modaro]

Naruto just needed an extra pair of arms to focus on the rotation and power so he could focus on containment of the chakra... The Kyuubi cloak has that extra pair of arms needed for the rotation and power... He doesn't necessarily need 2 minds to make a Rasengan...

I don't agree

[Modaro]

this theory well and truelly fails!!!:flaw::P

This is a discussion I'm Not theorizing anything :flaw:

[Modaro]

not really a contradiction he just need two sets of arms cause he cant look left and right at the same time so to speak.

So why then can Kakashi, Minato and Jariya do it with one hand?

And Naruto and Konhamaru does it with clones. It is obvious that they both overlooked something.

[-The Agent-]

So why then can Kakashi, Minato and Jariya do it with one hand?

And Naruto and Konhamaru does it with clones. It is obvious that they both overlooked something.

Because they all mastered shape manipulation...Naruto isn't a genius so he has to use a clone to help him. I think in due time he will be able to do it without a clone.

[Modaro]

Because they all mastered shape manipulation...Naruto isn't a genius so he has to use a clone to help him. I think in due time he will be able to do it without a clone.

Yeh they mastered shape manipulation so they can do rasengan rite" well guess what naruto can do rasengan to if u somehow missed that.

So Konahamaru hasn't master shape manipulation either

Do u understand how wrong what u said is, how the hell can a technique that is the highest level of shape manipulation be done by someone who hasn't master shape manipulation. DO YOU UNDERSTAND HOW SMART YOU ARE SOUNDING.

Why then didn't naruto suddenly master shape manipulation at the valley of end, where he did a one handed rasengan?

[-Hades-]

This again...
Ok Naruto did master shape manipulation that's why he is able to do the rasengan, but he is not at the highest point, that's why he can't do it with one hand and uses clones for that... both naruto and konohamaru are still young , they will master it eventually and will be able to do it with one hand... that shit takes time and practice. remember that even jyraia stated that mastering this jutsu is like looking left and right at the same time, so you can't expect a young ninja to master it that easily.
The rasengan looks easy and simple because naruto makes it look that way, remember it is still an A rank jutsu. We don't know how long it took Jyraia or Kakashi to master it but Minato who was a genius, and the creator of the jutsu, spent three years training in order to master it.
And for the kyubi part if you understand the basics of making the rasengan you will know why he was able to do it at the valley of end using just one hand, if not then i will not explain it again as it is posted above and in other threads as well.

[Honord Sage]

Look Minato and Kakashi started as book worms, the one trouble Naruto has had at school is book learning, He has always been a hands on guy. It is only now that book learning is starting to cache up to Naruto, but He is still at heart a practical learner.

[kakakashi]

what about the fuuton rasen-shuriken he did two clones is it the same thing ???

[Modaro]

This again...
Ok Naruto did master shape manipulation that's why he is able to do the rasengan, but he is not at the highest point, that's why he can't do it with one hand and uses clones for that... both naruto and konohamaru are still young , they will master it eventually and will be able to do it with one hand... that shit takes time and practice. remember that even jyraia stated that mastering this jutsu is like looking left and right at the same time, so you can't expect a young ninja to master it that easily.
The rasengan looks easy and simple because naruto makes it look that way, remember it is still an A rank jutsu. We don't know how long it took Jyraia or Kakashi to master it but Minato who was a genius, and the creator of the jutsu, spent three years training in order to master it.
And for the kyubi part if you understand the basics of making the rasengan you will know why he was able to do it at the valley of end using just one hand, if not then i will not explain it again as it is posted above and in other threads as well.

Minato took three years because he actually had the problem of delevoping the jutsu.

Jariya definately didn't take 3years

Kakashi copied it with sharingan

When naruto was in kyuubi mode he was only in one tailed cloak mode and very much in control.

[Modaro]

what about the fuuton rasen-shuriken he did two clones is it the same thing ???

Yeh its the same thing he needed the other clone to add wind chakra.


THIS ISN'T DIRECTED AT YOU
THE FRS i can understand Naruto using clones for, but not rasengan a jutsu he has been using for 3yrs + and still hasn't master it?

[-Hades-]

I agree that he has been using it for a long time and he could have mastered it by now but if kishi wants him to do it using his signature jutsu then why not?
We don't know about Jyraia how much it took him to master it... i agree he didn't spend 3 years but who knows for sure? and it doesn't really matter.
Yea the sharingan can copy jutsu, especially those which require hand seals... but the rasengan doesn't and as also stated by kakashi even if the rasengan can copy jutsu/moves the user still needs the skill to perform them so no shortcuts here.

Yes naruto was in control as i said the rasengan was made from his chakra and he used the kiuby's chakra as a shield, a capsule , something to compress the rasengan and maintain it's shape while he focused on the power and rotation... it is the same concept as with the clones...