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  1. #1
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    The reason the Leaf gave up Hizashi Hyuga

    After seeing more and more about the Hidden Cloud Village it becomes readily apparent why the Leaf gave up Hizashi Hyuga...once Minato died the Hidden Cloud was stronger than the Leaf.

    Just comparing who was around for the Leaf it would be extremely difficult to beat the Cloud village and even if they did the losses would have been enormous. The Leaf's finest at that point were the 3rd, Kakashi, Hiashi, Hizashi, Guy, Shikaku, Inochi, Chouza, Asuma, Yamato and that was about it in the village (obviously Jiraiya and Tsnaude were both still alive, but not living in the village). While they are all strong in their own right, the Leaf would have no answer to Raikage's speed and strength and Killer Bee's control of the 8 tails.
    I know someone may argue that the 3rd could use Reaper Death Seal on Raikage or Killer Bee, but let's be real Raikage was far too fast to be caught by it and the 3rd would have the same problem as the 4th that the 8 tails is too powerful to fully seal away with Reaper Death Seal.

    So to avoid the devastation maybe even the total destruction of the Leaf, they gave up Hizashi.
     
         

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    Re: The reason the Leaf gave up Hizashi Hyuga

    Quote Originally Posted by BigTDogg220 View Post
    After seeing more and more about the Hidden Cloud Village it becomes readily apparent why the Leaf gave up Hizashi Hyuga...once Minato died the Hidden Cloud was stronger than the Leaf.

    Just comparing who was around for the Leaf it would be extremely difficult to beat the Cloud village and even if they did the losses would have been enormous. The Leaf's finest at that point were the 3rd, Kakashi, Hiashi, Hizashi, Guy, Shikaku, Inochi, Chouza, Asuma, Yamato and that was about it in the village (obviously Jiraiya and Tsnaude were both still alive, but not living in the village). While they are all strong in their own right, the Leaf would have no answer to Raikage's speed and strength and Killer Bee's control of the 8 tails.
    I know someone may argue that the 3rd could use Reaper Death Seal on Raikage or Killer Bee, but let's be real Raikage was far too fast to be caught by it and the 3rd would have the same problem as the 4th that the 8 tails is too powerful to fully seal away with Reaper Death Seal.

    So to avoid the devastation maybe even the total destruction of the Leaf, they gave up Hizashi.
    They have strong clans. It's hard to estimate each village's power because we only know a few shinobi from cloud and I doubt Raikage + bee would be able to stop all of the konoha clan. I mean look at the whole hyuuga clan and combine it with ino-shika-cho and then you have the 3rd hokage, who btw was still strong even at that age. Kakashi + Gai would have been a great team. Worst came to worst, Gai would open all the gates and I think he would be faster than raikage or bee.

    But I wonder, if cloud would have attacked konoha...would itachi interfere as well?
     
         

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    Re: The reason the Leaf gave up Hizashi Hyuga

    If itachi was there, the cloud most likely wouldn't win, not because im slobbin on itachi, but because if itachi was still with the leaf when it happened (i dont know if it said when it was, don't flame if im wrong) but then the uchiha clan would still be alive and kickin during the time. I would like to see the cloud try and handle the leaf with that clan still alive, like i said idk when hizashi was given up so please dont flame :D
     
         

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    Re: The reason the Leaf gave up Hizashi Hyuga

    Danzo would have fought for the leaf
    Jiraya and Tsunade would have fought
    was that before or after orochimaru left the village? ^^


    besides 8 gates gai would have been strong

    combination of shikaku + hyuga : shadow bind even for a few seconds + 64 palms and raikage would not be able to use his armor anymore .. well ok we don't know if a hyuga chakra punch can pierce the armor ...
     
         

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    Re: The reason the Leaf gave up Hizashi Hyuga

    man do u forget the ANBU they are very talented ninja !!!!
     
         

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    Re: The reason the Leaf gave up Hizashi Hyuga

    Regarding the RDS, only the caster can see it initially, not the person/object targeted. Thus, the Raikage can't dodge what he can't see or doesn't even know is there. Hell, Sarutobi, could take out three people with it if he needed to.

    Where does it say the Cloud were stronger than the Leaf when Minato died, and please don't cite common sense if you don't have the manga because it's your assumption or theory.

    Peace
     
         

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    Re: The reason the Leaf gave up Hizashi Hyuga

    Quote Originally Posted by leafeater View Post
    Regarding the RDS, only the caster can see it initially, not the person/object targeted. Thus, the Raikage can't dodge what he can't see or doesn't even know is there. Hell, Sarutobi, could take out three people with it if he needed to.

    Where does it say the Cloud were stronger than the Leaf when Minato died, and please don't cite common sense if you don't have the manga because it's your assumption or theory.

    Peace
    Simple, nobody in the Leaf at the time could bee A--B combo.
     
         

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    220 BigTDogg220's Avatar
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    Re: The reason the Leaf gave up Hizashi Hyuga

    Quote Originally Posted by leafeater View Post
    Regarding the RDS, only the caster can see it initially, not the person/object targeted. Thus, the Raikage can't dodge what he can't see or doesn't even know is there. Hell, Sarutobi, could take out three people with it if he needed to.

    Where does it say the Cloud were stronger than the Leaf when Minato died, and please don't cite common sense if you don't have the manga because it's your assumption or theory.

    Peace
    That's truly my opinion, but judging from everyone I've seen in the Leaf no one can compare to Raikage and Killer Bee at that time at least. While you're right that you can't see Reaper Death Seal, all instances of it that we've seen the user had their enemy standing still (the 3rd held the 1st, 2nd, and Orochimaru and Minato had Kushina hold down the 9 tails fox).

    To kego12: every village has ANBU.
    to Wamphyri: the entire village could be destroyed by the time Jiraiya and Tsnaude arrived. It was after Orochimaru left because he left when Minato was still alive.


    The 3rd would also have needed to stay alive long enough to summon the Death God. It was only Orochimaru's arrogance that allowed him to use the jutsu. A kills first and has no time to joke around. In the time it takes to do the hand seals the 3rd could be dead.

    Bottomline, an all out war with the Cloud would be far too costly for the Leaf win or lose. Look at how much damage Orochimaru and the crappy Sand nin did. Orochimaru would be in dead the moment the Raikage arrived on the battefield.
     
         
    Last edited by BigTDogg220; 06-10-2011 at 06:34 PM.

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    Re: The reason the Leaf gave up Hizashi Hyuga

    Quote Originally Posted by BigTDogg220 View Post
    That's truly my opinion, but judging from everyone I've seen in the Leaf no one can compare to Raikage and Killer Bee at that time at least. While you're right that you can't see Reaper Death Seal, all instances of it that we've seen the user had their enemy standing still (the 3rd held the 1st, 2nd, and Orochimaru and Minato had Kushina hold down the 9 tails fox).

    To kego12, every village has ANBU.
    That's fair if that's your opinion, no problem. I know you don't make such statements lightly, sans thought. I thought I heard a cough or something before you, lol. :D

    The thing is, the incident occurred right after a peace treaty was signed. Why would the Cloud bother with the treaty if they were more powerful? Are you proposing it was a ruse to get inside the Leaf? With the Byakuugan, the Hyuuga household is probably nearly impregnable. A dead Hyuuga or POW is just as good, so if they were more powerful, it should've been easier to continue the war, not end it.

    Edit: Sorry, when I replied this part wasn't in your post.

    Bottomline, an all out war with the Cloud would be far too costly for the Leaf win or lose. Look at how much damage Orochimaru and the crappy Sand nin did. Orochimaru would be in dead the moment the Raikage arrived on the battefield.
    I agree with this, win or lose. The additional problem could be the cost of other villages capitalizing on their weakness, as was mentioned after the Sand attacked. It could've even led to the 4th great ninja war at the worst.

    Peace
     
         
    Last edited by leafeater; 06-10-2011 at 07:00 PM.

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    Re: The reason the Leaf gave up Hizashi Hyuga

    Quote Originally Posted by leafeater View Post
    That's fair if that's your opinion, no problem. I know you don't make such statements lightly, sans thought. I thought I heard a cough or something before you, lol. :D

    The thing is, the incident occurred right after a peace treaty was signed. Why would the Cloud bother with the treaty if they were more powerful? Are you proposing it was a ruse to get inside the Leaf? With the Byakuugan, the Hyuuga household is probably nearly impregnable. A dead Hyuuga or POW is just as good, so if they were more powerful, it should've been easier to continue the war, not end it.

    Edit: Sorry, when I replied this part wasn't in your post.



    I agree with this, win or lose. The additional problem could be the cost of other villages capitalizing on their weakness, as was mentioned after the Sand attacked. It could've even led to the 4th great ninja war at the worst.

    Peace
    Good point on the fact a dead Hyuga from the main branch would've been just as good as stealing Hinata. Maybe the Cloud wanted the Byakugan without having a war on their hands immediately. It wasn't stated, but the Leaf may have had other treaties/alliances so other shinobi would've come to their aid if an all out war occured. The Cloud were extremely brash to demand Hiashi's head considering their shinobi tried to kidnap Hinata.
     
         

  11. #11
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    Re: The reason the Leaf gave up Hizashi Hyuga

    Hinata was 3 years old, Neji 4. that means Sasuke must have been round about the same age. That means Itachi was probably a still a jounin (he joined ambu at age 11 when Sasuke joined academi at age 6-7. That means Uchihas were still in the village as well.

    Hyuga Taijutsu is the strongest in the manga. bayakugan and sharingan in the village.

    Cloud was there to sign an alliance treaty.

    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/102/7

    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/102/17


    Just saying...
     
         
    Last edited by Ira; 06-10-2011 at 08:18 PM.

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    Re: The reason the Leaf gave up Hizashi Hyuga

    There's really like only 3 people who would give the leaf problems a-b and dauri.If gai opens the 8th gate he can go head to head with the raikage, but will mostly likely die to the after effect of the gates.Kakashi head to head with Darui all thats left is bee ,from my point of view bee is way stronger,smoother,slicker then A.

    The leaf had the 3rd hokage, enma,kakashi,asuma,itachi,ibika,yamato,anko,aoi,da nzou,Shibi Etc the leaf also had allies like the toads and even probably the 3rd summonings.


    i'm going with the hidden leaf with this one
     
         

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    Re: The reason the Leaf gave up Hizashi Hyuga

    Quote Originally Posted by isthatnecessary View Post
    Hinata was 3 years old, Neji 4. that means Sasuke must have been round about the same age. That means Itachi was probably a still a jounin (he joined ambu at age 11 when Sasuke joined academi at age 6-7. That means Uchihas were still in the village as well.

    Hyuga Taijutsu is the strongest in the manga. bayakugan and sharingan in the village.

    Cloud was there to sign an alliance treaty.

    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/102/7

    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/102/17


    Just saying...

    My mistake, you're correct. I thought it was a peace treaty, not an alliance treaty. This affects my argument some.
     
         

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    Re: The reason the Leaf gave up Hizashi Hyuga

    so what do you want to say with this, whats your point?
     
         

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    Re: The reason the Leaf gave up Hizashi Hyuga

    Quote Originally Posted by DeathReaperSeal View Post
    so what do you want to say with this, whats your point?
    The OP seems to imply that Konoha was afraid of Kumo and that's why they avoided the the war. I was reading the whole neji and his dad and related chapters last night. What Hizashi said was that he wants to protect his brother (not the main family), his village and everyone from the another war. The disscussion prior to it indicated that Kumo was always creating some sort of altercations and kept instigating fights regularly.

    Konoha understood that alliance proposal was yet another trick to somehow acquire bayakugan or instigate war and didn't want to give them chance. By sending Hizashi they forced Kumo to stick to alliance proposal this time and foiled their plans both ways. Just IMO..
     
         
    Last edited by Ira; 06-11-2011 at 05:00 PM.

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    220 BigTDogg220's Avatar
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    Re: The reason the Leaf gave up Hizashi Hyuga

    Quote Originally Posted by Excite View Post
    There's really like only 3 people who would give the leaf problems a-b and dauri.If gai opens the 8th gate he can go head to head with the raikage, but will mostly likely die to the after effect of the gates.Kakashi head to head with Darui all thats left is bee ,from my point of view bee is way stronger,smoother,slicker then A.

    The leaf had the 3rd hokage, enma,kakashi,asuma,itachi,ibika,yamato,anko,aoi,da nzou,Shibi Etc the leaf also had allies like the toads and even probably the 3rd summonings.


    i'm going with the hidden leaf with this one
    I don't think Guy could beat Raikage even if he opened his 8th Gate, he die for nothing. Now I didn't think about the Uchiha still being part of the village at that time that certainly adds a different demention. I wouldn't include the toads because Jiraiya wasn't living in the village at that time just drifting around so it's hard to say if he'd be there or not. The 3rd was old by then and he's not keeping up with the Raikage at that point. Ibiki could easily be defeated in battle as well as Anko and likely Danzo at that pont.

    Who's Aoi anyone? The filler character from the Hidden Rain?

    Quote Originally Posted by DeathReaperSeal View Post
    so what do you want to say with this, whats your point?
    The point is the reason I believe they gave up Hizashi was to avoid a war they wouldn't be sure of being able to win.

    With the Uchiha still being among the Hidden Leaf things could be quite different because of Itachi and Shisui. Still not a battle you lightly engage in when you have such fierce adversaries as A, Killer Bee, and Darui.
     
         

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    Senior Member psukkar's Avatar
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    Re: The reason the Leaf gave up Hizashi Hyuga

    Quote Originally Posted by leafeater View Post
    Regarding the RDS, only the caster can see it initially, not the person/object targeted. Thus, the Raikage can't dodge what he can't see or doesn't even know is there. Hell, Sarutobi, could take out three people with it if he needed to.

    Where does it say the Cloud were stronger than the Leaf when Minato died, and please don't cite common sense if you don't have the manga because it's your assumption or theory.

    Peace
    during the time, the databooks said the cloud village is the strongest in military strength followed by the stone and leaf villages.

    But konoha is the richest and they were allies probaly with other villages too.

    Regarding the throey, that would make sense. I always thought it way to goody to shoe when we learned about it. IN a 1 v 1 if jiraiy would be there it would be a stalement with the third hokage there also with gai. kakahi and senior gnerations dads.

    Also the raikage mentioned recently why konoha was very hard to defeat, because they were very tacticky hard to break down. It would be close, konoha are resiltient, history has shown us that much.
     
         
    Last edited by psukkar; 06-11-2011 at 09:11 AM.

  18. #18
    Master Artisan leafeater's Avatar
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    Re: The reason the Leaf gave up Hizashi Hyuga

    Quote Originally Posted by psukkar View Post
    during the time, the databooks said the cloud village is the strongest in military strength followed by the stone and leaf villages.

    But konoha is the richest and they were allies probaly with other villages too.

    Regarding the throey, that would make sense. I always thought it way to goody to shoe when we learned about it. IN a 1 v 1 if jiraiy would be there it would be a stalement with the third hokage there also with gai. kakahi and senior gnerations dads.

    Also the raikage mentioned recently why konoha was very hard to defeat, because they were very tacticky hard to break down. It would be close, konoha are resiltient, history has shown us that much.
    Nice job on the databooks as too many people have made this claim as fact without backing it up. Here BigTDog said it was his educated opinion (in his case, that's sufficient for me), but now he has the databook to make it fact. Isthatnecessary cracked it pretty wide with the manga that must've had electronic dust on it for me.

    I'd rep you guys if I could, but even though I spread rep, I still can't rep you yet. Kind of a weird system, though I understand why it's designed that way. At least this way, you know it's rep worthy, and I'll get you later, even though you might get repped for a one word post (it's meant for this one, and I'll leave a comment).

    Does the databook list a reason for the ranking, or does it just list a number and/or number? The reason I ask is that we've witnessed so much of the Leaf that it's hard to assess the cloud until recently, and even then information has not been very reliable.

    Also the raikage mentioned recently why konoha was very hard to defeat, because they were very tacticky hard to break down.
    I think that this is primarily due to their diversity of clans (Aburame, Nara, Sarutobi, etc.) to be quite honest. From what we've seen of the cloud in the 4th ninja war, they aren't as diverse in their abilities, lots of lightning and sword abilities.

    As well, Shikaku and Inoichi would have been closer to their primes, and their currently devising the strategies for all 5 nations. That intelligence is a resource that can always compensate for strength (sans a perfect 8-tails maybe if Bee was that then), like Hidan (He was weak, hell a joke, but Shikamaru had a perfect strategy that could not deviate a single bit as well as taking out 1 of Kakuzu's 5 hearts) and Nagato went down because of his secrets being exposed (I know about the story book...).

    The only person Madara intentionally tried to kill with Gedo Mazo was Shikamaru because he supra-intelligently broke down on the fly what Madara was doing, not because his shadow weaves could rip open an island.

    I think the Aburame clan would be very useful in assisting in a matchup against the Raikage based on going back to when Tobi was stalling and Shino was attacking because his attacks aren't focused but are widespread for that type of opponent. Unless the Raikage was like a superfast bug lamp, lol.

    However, the Raikage seems like a very difficult person to deal with if Bee is going to be his body guard, so a lot hinges on how the Cloud uses Bee. If the Leaf were to win this, they would have to separate them somehow. There's no other way. I believe there are multiple ways to do this. First, Hiruzen (Enma's diamond form is going to be key to his survival) alone would draw the Raikage, causing an opening. Then the next paragraph, where clans like Chouji's and Fuuinjutsu might work.

    If they separated them, I believe they can at the least make the war losses unacceptable for the Cloud. Chouji was able to do his Kunai bowling ball into a 6-tails KinKaku, so the Leaf has resources to contain him unless he has mastery of the TB II mode. Then he's just firing off TBB's, and Hiruzen has to used the DRS on him unless they have some other less self-sacrificing Fuuinjutsu like a barrier jutsu that would work. Given their previous affiliation with the Uzumaki, this seems possible.

    Darui at that point I think is weaker than Kakashi despite his black lightning and Storm release, due to age and experience primarily. Of course, this is speculation, but Kakashi was in the 3rd ninja war with distinction and has his Sharingan at at least 2 tomoes (Obito's started at 2), possibly 3. He may only have 500 jutsu at this point, but I think he's OK, lol.

    In the end, I still think the product will be a stalemate, such that it would be too costly for either side to win or lose. It's an interesting thread BigTDog and fresh (I'm happy to not be talking about which is faster Minato or anything), and I'm glad I've been refreshed on some good facts from Psukkar and Isthatnecessary as they've been useful and they'll be useful down the road.

    Peace guys
     
         
    Last edited by leafeater; 06-11-2011 at 03:30 PM.

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    Senior Member psukkar's Avatar
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    Re: The reason the Leaf gave up Hizashi Hyuga

    Quote Originally Posted by leafeater View Post
    Nice job on the databooks as too many people have made this claim as fact without backing it up. Here BigTDog said it was his educated opinion (in his case, that's sufficient for me), but now he has the databook to make it fact. Isthatnecessary cracked it pretty wide with the manga that must've had electronic dust on it for me.

    I'd rep you guys if I could, but even though I spread rep, I still can't rep you yet. Kind of a weird system, though I understand why it's designed that way. At least this way, you know it's rep worthy, and I'll get you later, even though you might get repped for a one word post (it's meant for this one, and I'll leave a comment).

    Does the databook list a reason for the ranking, or does it just list a number and/or number? The reason I ask is that we've witnessed so much of the Leaf that it's hard to assess the cloud until recently, and even then information has not been very reliable.



    I think that this is primarily due to their diversity of clans (Aburame, Nara, Sarutobi, etc.) to be quite honest. From what we've seen of the cloud in the 4th ninja war, they aren't as diverse in their abilities, lots of lightning and sword abilities.

    As well, Shikaku and Inoichi would have been closer to their primes, and their currently devising the strategies for all 5 nations. That intelligence is a resource that can always compensate for strength (sans a perfect 8-tails maybe if Bee was that then), like Hidan (He was weak, hell a joke, but Shikamaru had a perfect strategy that could not deviate a single bit as well as taking out 1 of Kakuzu's 5 hearts) and Nagato went down because of his secrets being exposed (I know about the story book...).

    The only person Madara intentionally tried to kill with Gedo Mazo was Shikamaru because he supra-intelligently broke down on the fly what Madara was doing, not because his shadow weaves could rip open an island.

    I think the Aburame clan would be very useful in assisting in a matchup against the Raikage based on going back to when Tobi was stalling and Shino was attacking because his attacks aren't focused but are widespread for that type of opponent. Unless the Raikage was like a superfast bug lamp, lol.

    However, the Raikage seems like a very difficult person to deal with if Bee is going to be his body guard, so a lot hinges on how the Cloud uses Bee. If the Leaf were to win this, they would have to separate them somehow. There's no other way. I believe there are multiple ways to do this. First, Hiruzen (Enma's diamond form is going to be key to his survival) alone would draw the Raikage, causing an opening. Then the next paragraph, where clans like Chouji's and Fuuinjutsu might work.

    If they separated them, I believe they can at the least make the war losses unacceptable for the Cloud. Chouji was able to do his Kunai bowling ball into a 6-tails KinKaku, so the Leaf has resources to contain him unless he has mastery of the TB II mode. Then he's just firing off TBB's, and Hiruzen has to used the DRS on him unless they have some other less self-sacrificing Fuuinjutsu like a barrier jutsu that would work. Given their previous affiliation with the Uzumaki, this seems possible.

    Darui at that point I think is weaker than Kakashi despite his black lightning and Storm release, due to age and experience primarily. Of course, this is speculation, but Kakashi was in the 3rd ninja war with distinction and has his Sharingan at at least 2 tomoes (Obito's started at 2), possibly 3. He may only have 500 jutsu at this point, but I think he's OK, lol.

    Why Itachi won't show (Someone speculated this might happen):
    I'm not sure who asked about Itachi, but he would not intervene. It would blow his whole cover and everything. It might even lead to losses on the Leaf side because they'd think they were being attacked at first. It doesn't make sense. Sasuke was supposed to grow and hate him in order grow stronger, gain an MS, and eventually kill him to be a hero of Konoha. That was Itachi's plan. Leaving Akatsuki briefly like that might even endanger Sasuke. Alternatively, returning to Konoha might be viewed by Danzou as breaking the contract, and endangering Sasuke. Itachi doesn't play.


    In the end, I still think the product will be a stalemate, such that it would be too costly for either side to win or lose. It's an interesting thread BigTDog and fresh (I'm happy to not be talking about which is faster Minato or anything), and I'm glad I've been refreshed on some good facts from Psukkar and Isthatnecessary as they've been useful and they'll be useful down the road.

    Peace guys
    Well i just mentioned the databooks becuase kishi wirtes them.

    Anyway besides you don't need things in writing to tell the cloud village at the moment are strongest. They have the prefect host in control of the 2nd strongest tailled beast. They also had another host the two tailed host which showed good control as he was also able to turn into beast mode like bee also.

    Also they have arguably the strongest kage during the time, the stone kage is also powerful but much older.

    Also during the kage summit the stone kage commented on why villages over the years have used a mercenary team like absuki for missions like the sand and stone villages.

    This was in rebuttle to the riakage's statement they are all to blame for the absuki's growth in power such as amassing money which was their first stage of their plan. The stone kage replied the other villages used absuki to combat the cloud village's many attempts to gain more power in a time where the other villages were in disarmament.

    As you can see the cloud village is ahead of the rest strngth wise becuase they have been working on gaining more power for years up to now. All the history of the cloud village kishi has shown us recently is his way of saying the cloud village has been amassing for years, here are some clear examples

    1)trying to capture the fox before madara even had it, The gold and silver brothers got powerful in the event.
    2) The cloud have the 5 sacred relics
    3) Killed the 2nd hokage
    4) Trying to control the 8 tails multiple times with 100% control
    5) Trying to steal the byukgan

    The list goes on and on.

    This matches up with what kishi worte in this databooks years ago.

    Give the village the praise it deserves. It is the the strongest without a doubt there history shows that they were amassing power while other villages were not. And with the decline of konoha losing all its strongest kages and key characters like some sannin members liek orochimaru and jiraiya and tsende wasn't always in the vlilage during that time, what do you expect.
     
         
    Last edited by psukkar; 06-11-2011 at 01:26 PM.

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    Re: The reason the Leaf gave up Hizashi Hyuga

    Quote Originally Posted by psukkar View Post
    Give the village the praise it deserves. It is the the strongest without a doubt there history shows that they were amassing power while other villages were not. And with the decline of konoha losing all its strongest kages and key characters like some sannin members liek orochimaru and jiraiya and tsende wasn't always in the vlilage during that time, what do you expect.
    First let me say psukkar and leafeater awesome stuff. You filled in all the gaps I left brilliantly. The Leaf just wouldn't be able to defeat the Hidden Cloud if they all came to fight, but if A and Killer Bee remained in the Cloud and he just sent a force lead by Darui and some others than the Leaf could win. It's just hard to imagine the Leaf defeating the Cloud then even if Jiraiya and Tsnaude were there.

    I have to agree with leafeater that Itachi and the other Uchiha would show because they were still the leaders of ANBU. I wonder how much weaker Itachi was at that point though. You have to figure Shisui was still alive so Itachi hadn't yet gained his mangekyou sharingan, so while he'd be extremely valuable he wouldn't be the mangekyou sharingan Itachi we're familiar with.
     
         

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    Re: The reason the Leaf gave up Hizashi Hyuga

    Quote Originally Posted by leafeater View Post

    Why Itachi won't show (Someone speculated this might happen):
    I'm not sure who asked about Itachi, but he would not intervene. It would blow his whole cover and everything. It might even lead to losses on the Leaf side because they'd think they were being attacked at first. It doesn't make sense. Sasuke was supposed to grow and hate him in order grow stronger, gain an MS, and eventually kill him to be a hero of Konoha. That was Itachi's plan. Leaving Akatsuki briefly like that might even endanger Sasuke. Alternatively, returning to Konoha might be viewed by Danzou as breaking the contract, and endangering Sasuke. Itachi doesn't play.
    Well I tend to disagree with this. If konoha is attacked, Sasuke is in a lot of danger knowing him. And Itachi is very smart he won't try to blow his cover. He might (1) find an excuse to attack cloud village (i.e. heard rumors about eight tails being unprotected in the village of whatever) or (2) convince some of the akatsuki that this is the best chance to grab the eight and ninetails, so that would mean interfering between the two villages and quite possibly killing some of the strongest shinobi on both sides, as long as it meant stopping the war.
     
         

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    Re: The reason the Leaf gave up Hizashi Hyuga

    Quote Originally Posted by psukkar View Post
    Well i just mentioned the databooks becuase kishi wirtes them.

    Anyway besides you don't need things in writing to tell the cloud village at the moment are strongest. They have the prefect host in control of the 2nd strongest tailled beast. They also had another host the two tailed host which showed good control as he was also able to turn into beast mode like bee also.

    Also they have arguably the strongest kage during the time, the stone kage is also powerful but much older.

    Also during the kage summit the stone kage commented on why villages over the years have used a mercenary team like absuki for missions like the sand and stone villages.

    This was in rebuttle to the riakage's statement they are all to blame for the absuki's growth in power such as amassing money which was their first stage of their plan. The stone kage replied the other villages used absuki to combat the cloud village's many attempts to gain more power in a time where the other villages were in disarmament.

    As you can see the cloud village is ahead of the rest strngth wise becuase they have been working on gaining more power for years up to now. All the history of the cloud village kishi has shown us recently is his way of saying the cloud village has been amassing for years, here are some clear examples

    1)trying to capture the fox before madara even had it, The gold and silver brothers got powerful in the event.
    2) The cloud have the 5 sacred relics
    3) Killed the 2nd hokage
    4) Trying to control the 8 tails multiple times with 100% control
    5) Trying to steal the byukgan

    The list goes on and on.

    This matches up with what kishi worte in this databooks years ago.

    Give the village the praise it deserves. It is the the strongest without a doubt there history shows that they were amassing power while other villages were not. And with the decline of konoha losing all its strongest kages and key characters like some sannin members liek orochimaru and jiraiya and tsende wasn't always in the vlilage during that time, what do you expect.
    I thought I did. I forgot about the 2-tails, by the way. At the time though, the KinGin brothers would be dead. Personally I think the Cloud may have more members at the top but they seem to lack depth and diversity (part of that is the story following the Leaf not the Cloud, so we're biased). As well the Leaf have Shikaku and Inoichi such that I think strategy and clan diversity can trump power. Something doesn't add up to me as to why there wasn't a war. I wrote more at the end on this specifically, but the ball was in the Cloud's court on whether to go to war and they declined, so I wonder why.

    A lot, if not it all, depends on the Cloud's and Leaf's strategies. If A and Bee come together, it's a major problem, separated it's possible. Really, the Leaf are the best suited to fight Jinchuuriki I would think due to their prior relations with the Uzumaki and their Fuuinjutsu.

    Ultimately, war is prohibitively costly to both sides, so I don't see either side finishing the war. I see it ending in a stalemate and peace treaty, which the Cloud obviously has no respect for based on prior actions. Neither side has a game breaker like Minato was in the 3rd war. There's the Jinchuuriki, but they can be contained; otherwise, why would the Cloud not go to war? They have to have had a reason. I don't think if they really wanted war that they would've been satisfied with a Hyuuga corpse with a destroyed Byakuugan.

    Your post did an excellent job at illustrating the power of the Cloud and the Leaf's weakness's at that specific time.

    What I don't get is if/why they ever thought that their plan to get Hinata would work since the Hyuuga compound is actively guarded by branch members with the Byakuugan and then main house members making it nearly impregnable to get Hinata and get out. Further, if they knew that would fail, why were they satisfied with a substitute Hiashi (it's not like Hiashi has gone into hiding, so they know they got ripped off, granted he may have for a short while) with a nonfunctional Byakuugan instead of war. If they were so much more powerful where they could go to war and win or draw, why not take a Byakuugan off a dead main house member as a spoil of war, like Ao in the Mist.

    Peace

    Quote Originally Posted by BigTDogg220 View Post
    First let me say psukkar and leafeater awesome stuff. You filled in all the gaps I left brilliantly. The Leaf just wouldn't be able to defeat the Hidden Cloud if they all came to fight, but if A and Killer Bee remained in the Cloud and he just sent a force lead by Darui and some others than the Leaf could win. It's just hard to imagine the Leaf defeating the Cloud then even if Jiraiya and Tsnaude were there.

    I have to agree with leafeater that Itachi and the other Uchiha would show because they were still the leaders of ANBU. I wonder how much weaker Itachi was at that point though. You have to figure Shisui was still alive so Itachi hadn't yet gained his mangekyou sharingan, so while he'd be extremely valuable he wouldn't be the mangekyou sharingan Itachi we're familiar with.
    Thanks, I'll need to edit that.

    I messed up the timeline Itachi actually and the Uchiha. I forgot that at that point, 8 years prior to their coup de 'etat, they were all present. Itachi's genjutsu (no MS), Shisui's body flicker and mind control, then the rest.

    If Jiraiya came there with his sage mode, he would be immensely helpful if for now other reason than he would command the Raikage's attention and freeing up Hiruzen. That's having two Kage level ninja on your side at once.

    I apologize, I've been mixing up the timeline on this thread. Thus, @Anub, you make a sound argument, but my entire Itachi statement was wrong, and I've removed it. I wrote it when I was eating, not sure what that matters lol.

    Peace.
     
         
    Last edited by leafeater; 06-11-2011 at 03:38 PM.

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    Re: The reason the Leaf gave up Hizashi Hyuga

    Quote Originally Posted by leafeater View Post
    If Jiraiya came there with his sage mode, he would be immensely helpful if for now other reason than he would command the Raikage's attention and freeing up Hiruzen. That's having two Kage level ninja on your side at once.
    Good point if Jiraiya showed up in Sage Mode only the Raikage and Killer Bee would have what it takes to deal with him. I wonder if the Frog genjutsu would be fast enough to immobilize the Raikage even at his lightning speed. Jiraiya may not be able to keep up with the Raikage's speed, but keeping his guard up he could allow the toads to get in sync for their genjutsu. If the frog genjutsu works on the Raikage then the Leaf could win in a devastating conflict for both villages.
     
         

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    Re: The reason the Leaf gave up Hizashi Hyuga

    The hidden cloud was probably stronger, hell even the stone village, but i still think konaha was the smartest village of them all, hence the raikage's comment about konoha's superiority in strategy/intellegence.And if push came to shuff, the leaf would have showed a lot of heart, and they still had S-level ninjas like the third and danzo(those two alone could take on A and bee), and brilliant minds like shikaku and Inoichi.Shino's clan which could infiltrate all the the attackers with poison, look what tu did to madara's arm.They had two of the three doujutsus.Plus, they naturally have defenses. Of course, there would be casualties on both sides....
    And part of the brilliance of konoha is knowing when to be aggressive and when an exchange is necessary, for the peace and safety, of the shinibo world.Believe me, if anyone thought they could overtake konoha, they would have.It would have to be an inside job, and then take on the village while it slept.We saw that with Orochimaro, under the chunnin exams.Oro was a genious, and he knew that nobody would expect the kazekage to be overtaken by a snake.
    Finally, i think it is only positive, and among the only good things about the war, that we see what the other villages are capable of, and i hope the stone village is next.
    This way you eliminate the ignorant people, who thinks that konoha is invincible and the other villages are weak(because they have never seen what lies behind teh wall of konaha).
     
         

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    Re: The reason the Leaf gave up Hizashi Hyuga

    Didn't Konoha win a war already? So I suppose Konoha is really strong.
     
         

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