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    Izuna Uchiha's Avatar
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    ±± Elemental Interactions ±±



    How to efficiently use Elemental Combinations


    In this thread I will try to clarify the usage of elemental combinations and correct any false ideology associated with them. I will go through many common combinations to make myself as clear as possible. However, it is important for all of you to understand that there is no general rule that can be applied to each and every situation when Role Playing. You will have to use your logic in many occasions, and this thread is simply a guide for those who want to learn the basics of this logic.

    Let us start at the very beginning, the elemental weaknesses and advantages of every element:

    Fire
    -Weak to water
    -Strong against wind


    Water
    -Weak against earth
    -Strong against fire


    Earth
    -Weak against lightning
    -Strong against water


    Lightning
    -Weak against wind
    -Strong against earth


    Wind
    -Weak against fire
    -Strong against lightning


    I am sure many, if not all of you, know about those, nonetheless it’s important to remind them to everyone.

    Now when it comes to elemental combination, those weaknesses and strength are extremely important since they define which elements will pairs to form a combination. Some element can mix, and some can’t. This is normally based on the nature of the element. Here are the most common combination of elements:

    -Fire and Wind creates a bigger, stronger fire.

    **When a fire and a wind jutsu of the same rank are shot by two shinobi facing each other, the result won't be a stronger fire jutsu continuing forward, but instead it'll be a weakened fire jutsu (one rank lower then it originally was).
    **When a fire jutsu clash with a one rank higher wind jutsu, they will both cancel each other out. If higher then one rank, the wind will overpower the fire. However, there are exceptions; for further details continue the reading.


    (Further explanation on my reasoning of the Fire/Wind clash can be found in the spoiler bellow)

    The way I see the fire and wind clashing is like putting too much air into a flame, it won't do any good. However, when a wind jutsu merge from behind it only add to both jutsus momentum, reinforcing each other. I can't think of a jutsu getting stronger as he clashes with another one and loses speed. I know Fire is the elemental weakness of wind, but we shouldn't see it as fire and fuel. Air is only good for fire in certain proportion, let's not forget that.



    -Water and Lightning, though not related in the weakness and strength chart, can be used together as water conduct the electricity.

    -Water and Earth are very rarely used because of some restrictions with the Mud element, but when use with two separate jutsu, one can create mud.

    -Fire and Earth, again those two elements are rarely combined because they are associated with Lava release which is a patented CE. Nonetheless, there’s no restriction against using both a fire and an earth jutsu separately to create lava.


    Of course there are many more combinations which are possible, but I only wish to cover the most commonly used.

    Now that the basics are covered, let’s cut to the core; how strong is a combination, how to counter, what rank should it be considered.

    Let’s begin by establishing some ground rules;

    -An A-rank combined with another A-rank does not give you a forbidden rank; it gives you the equivalent of an S-rank jutsu. Two B-rank will give you an A-rank, so on and so forth.

    -Non linear combinations such as: B-rank combined with A-rank, will result in an S-rank jutsu. Since it would be debatable whether or not it’s considered an S-rank or an A-rank, we assume it’s the stronger of the two. This way, when defending, you’ll always be safe and no debate will arise. Again, when making a combination of two jutsu which differ by one rank, the resulting jutsu is one rank above the stronger of the two.

    -The only exception applies to S-ranked jutsus. When combining an S-rank with another S-rank or an S-rank with an A-rank jutsu, it doesn’t become a Forbidden rank technique. By definition, a Forbidden technique requires that the user suffers severe damage when performing the technique. Hence, those two combinations will only result in a very strong S-rank jutsu.


    Example:

    S+S= Very strong S-rank jutsu
    S+A= Strong S-rank jutsu
    A+A=S-rank jutsu
    A+B=S-rank jutsu
    B+B=A-rank jutsu
    B+C=A-rank jutsu
    C+C=B-rank jutsu
    C+D=B-rank jutsu
    D+D=C-rank jutsu


    For the Range criteria, the same logic applies when mixing two different types, inversly however. We need to keep in mind that what primarily defines the range of a jutsu is both it's momentum (if it's a projectile) and the "intent" of the jutsu. By "intent" I mean it's goal. For example, the Chidori isn't meant to be a Mid-Long range technique at first (the one Kakashi uses), although it does require a lot of chakra. Since the momentum and speed of a jutsu won't change if he is mixed with another jutsu of same momentum and speed, only faster or slower jutsu afects the range. In other word, only heterogenous compinations will have an impact on the range, homogeneous combinations keep the same range. Also, we will follow the same logic as with the rank of jutsus; when unsure wheter is should be higher or lower, we always assume higher in order to avoid debates. So, we could define the range of a combination this way:

    Long Range + Long Range = Long Range
    Long Range + Mid Range = Long Range
    Long Range + Short Range = Mid Range
    Mid Range + Mid Range = Mid Range
    Mid Range + Short Range = Mid Range
    Short Range + Short Range = Short Range


    As for the special case that is the combination between water an lightning, it is a false assumption that lighting can travel indefinetly through water. However, for the purpose of our RP, when using a water and a lightning jutsu in combination, the whole water jutsu is then electrified.

    Example:

    Ninja 1 and his clone use both those jutsu at the same time, creating a water lightning combination:


    (Suiton: Suigandan) - Water Style: Water Fang Bullet

    Rank: C
    Range: Short
    Type: Offense
    Chakra Cost: 15
    Damage Points: 30
    Description: The user gathers water in his/her mouth and then shoots out multiple spherical projectiles.


    (Raiton: Kangekiha) – Lightning Release: Wave of Inspiration

    Rank: B
    Type: Offensive
    Range: Short-Mid
    Chakra cost: 25
    Damage point: 30 (normally) 50 (when used in conjunction with water technique)
    Description: After using a Water Style technique, the user releases a wave of electricity that can electrocute any water within range, electrocuting and knocking back an opponent in contact with the water. When used without a water technique, its power is moderate. The technique can be used extremely quickly, so that it finishes almost in conjunction with the previous jutsu.



    I chose this example very carefully. Notice that the range of the water is "Short Range", but the lightning is a "Short-Mid" range jutsu. Would their combination become a mid range attack? No. When using water and lightning in combination, remember that water vehiculate the lightning, not the opposite. So, when using water and lightning in combinations, THE RANGE OF WATER IS THE OVERALL RANGE OF THE COMBINATION.

    Now the other posibility is using lightning on a vaste source of water (look at example below). In such a case, for the lightning to be out of range, the jutsu used must be below B-rank and the opponent must be standing long range from the user. Again, if a lightning jutsu below B-rank is used on a shinobi that is standing on a water source long range from the user, it will be ineffective.

    Example:

    Shinobi 1 creates a water source for both opponents to stand on:


    (Suiton: Takitsubo) - Water Style: Waterfall Basin

    Rank: C
    Type: Supplementary
    Range: Short-Mid
    Chakra cost: 15
    Damage Points: N/A
    Description: This jutsu summons a large amount of water. Yamato used this technique along with Earth Release: Earth Flow Rampart to create a waterfall as an example of elemental chakra to Naruto. (No water source required)



    The water starts to emerge from the ground. As soon as the field is covered in water, Shinobi 1 shoots a lightning jutsu at the water source:


    (Raiton: Raikyu) - Lightning Release: Lightning Ball

    Rank: C
    Type: Offense
    Range: Short/Mid
    Chakra Cost: 15
    Damage Points: 30
    Description: By gathering chakra in their hands, the user can create a ball of electrical energy and launch it at the enemy.



    In this case, the lightning is out of range if his opponent is standind long range from him.


    Again, it is important to consider that those rules cannot be applied 100% of the time, and here is why. The rank of a technique will be based of two factors; chakra manipulation and the “size” of a jutsu. Some jutsu, as you may or may not know, require extreme precision when molding the chakra. The rasengan is the most eloquent example. The difficulty with this jutsu isn’t to gather a massive amount of chakra and shoot it out at the opponent, it’s to mold the chakra into one of the most compact and destructive jutsu shown in the Manga. Because of this, it is considered A-rank.

    Now consider the opposite; a jutsu that requires close to no chakra manipulation but only creates an element in massive amount. Here’s an example:

    Example:



    (Suiton: Suishouha) - Water Style: Water Shock wave

    Rank: C
    Type: Supplementary
    Range: Short-Mid
    Chakra Cost: 15
    Damage Points: N/A
    Descripton: causes a large volume of water to materialize out of nowhere. The water can then be directed at his target.



    Those two factors; manipulation and size, are the corner stone when defining the rank of a jutsu.
    Now that I’ve demonstrated this, I’ll explain why having a higher ranked jutsu doesn’t necessarily mean its superior to a lower ranked jutsu.

    Example:

    Ninja 1 use a Water Dragon to attack him opponent:



    (Suiton: Suiryuudan) - Water Style: Water Dragon

    Rank: B
    Type: Offense
    Range: Short/Long
    Chakra Cost: 20
    Damage Points: 40
    Description: A huge rushing water projectile in the shape of a dragon that can level anything in its path.



    Ninja 2, only looking at the ranks, use a Rasengan to defend:



    (Rasengan) - Spiral Sphere

    Rank:A
    Type:Attack
    Range:Short
    Chakra Cost:
    Damage Points:
    Description: Rasengan was a Ninjutsu technique developed over the span of three years by the Fourth Hokage. The technique was taught to his sensei Jiraiya, who then passed it on to the young ninja Naruto years later. The technique is unlike many other jutsu in that it does not require any hand seals. It just relied on the ninja’s ability to mold chakra. The ninja concentrates a contained, fast, rotating sphere of chakra in the palm of their hand, which can create a destructive impact. Limit: None



    It’s obvious that because of its size, the Water Dragon will hit Ninja 2, even if the technique he used was ranked higher.

    Of course this is an obvious example, only to demonstrate that ranks doesn’t define the outcome between two jutsus.

    Now, what does this mean when applied to elemental combinations? Well, the answer is simple; it means that even though a combination may outrank another one (or simply a jutsu), it doesn’t mean it will overpower it. Such factor as the size, the manipulation and the elemental advantage needs to be taken into account. Here’s an example:

    Example:

    Ninja 1 and his shadow clone use two jutsu at the same time:



    Fuuton: Senpuuken (Wind Style: Hurricane Fist)

    Type:Attack
    Rank: B
    Range:Short-Mid
    Chakra Cost:20
    Damage Points:40
    Description: A vortex of wind shot out of the users fist wind he/she punches.


    (Katon: Bakuhatsu Enhogan) – Fire Style: Exploding Flame Shots

    Rank: B
    Type: Attack
    Range: Mid
    Chakra cost: 20
    Damage points: 40
    Description: The user shoots multiple fire shots from their hands that are able to cause fiery explosions on impact with any object. The shots can't set the opponent on fire, though they can cause damage by exploding on him.



    As both the jutsus mix to create bigger and stronger fire shots, Ninja 2 use:


    (Suiton: Suishouha) - Water Style: Water Shock wave

    Rank: C
    Type: Supplementary
    Range: Short-Mid
    Chakra Cost: 15
    Damage Points: N/A
    Descripton: causes a large volume of water to materialize out of nowhere. The water can then be directed at his target.




    Causing a massive amount of water to materialize in front of him, which he then directs at the incoming fire projectiles. Those fire shots will then be drown in this giant wave that’s heading toward Ninja 1.

    Smaller water techniques could have been evaporated, but in this case, it would have required a stronger and bigger fire technique. In fact, there are two important things to notice here as to why the fire lost to the water; the first being the elemental weakness, the second being that the fire jutsu was classified as B-rank because of the chakra manipulation required in creating several smaller fire projectile instead of one big.

    I hope you now understand that a combination can, most of the time, be classified with a rank and countered accordingly, but that some other time you have to actually look what the jutsu looks like and what it does. You’ll notice far too often people rely only on the rank and start endless debate because they don’t understand how lower ranked jutsu could counter theirs.

    I hope this thread was useful to you, that you’ll now use your logic when fighting and that you’ll try and understand a jutsu when using it other than simply shooting them at each other. I’ll gladly respond to any comments bellow.

    ~Approved by Nexus and Zenryoku~
     
         
    Last edited by Izuna Uchiha; 07-07-2011 at 01:51 PM.

  2. #2
    Khallil's Avatar
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    Elemental Clashes



    How to efficiently handle Elemental Clashes.




    In this thread I’ll be explaining how elemental clashes (of not the same rank) exactly work, how the strongest jutsu continues, and what ranked jutsu you need to properly counter them. The biggest part is excluded elemental weaknesses and Strengths. I'll be also explaining the concept of something like 'a weak B rank jutsu' or 'a strong B rank jutsu'. This thread is based on Izuna’s Elemental Combinations thread.

    I’ve seen many times that people are thinking like this, for some kind of reason I used tot think the same like this :
    An A rank fireball clashes with a B rank fireball. The A rank fireball overcomes the B rank fireball, and continues, but with the power of a D rank fireball, because the difference between the 2 fireballs is 1 rank.

    But this is NOT true!
    I could understand why you’d be thinking that, but in the end it isn’t very logical, because stuff like ‘a weak A rank technique’, or ‘a strong A rank technique’ wouldn’t make a lot of sense, you won’t be able to comprehend those concepts, and it’d be very abstract.

    For those that still don’t really understand this concept, I’ll be explaining how it works. I’ll start easy of with explaining this. If you read Izuna’s thread you might already know that..
    E+E = D-rank jutsu
    D+D = C-rank jutsu
    C+C = B-rank jutsu
    B+B = A-rank jutsu
    A+A = S-rank jutsu
    S+S = very strong S-rank jutsu

    Okay, but why is this of any importance?
    Well, as you can see, i.e. 2 B-rank jutsus would be together as powerful as 1 A rank jutsu. This means that a B rank technique is the ½ power of an A rank technique, so a B rank technique has enough force to take out half of an A rank technique, if they clash together (not counting elemental weaknesses and strengths yet). So the A rank technique will overcome the B rank technique, but the B rank technique has enough force to take out the half of the power of the A rank technique, which means the A rank technique will lose half of its power and continues as a B rank technique (because B+B=A). The same goes for something like S rank VS A rank. The S rank jutsu will overcome the A rank jutsu and continues as an A rank jutsu.

    Now we’ll move onto a little bit trickier part.
    But now...Let’s say an A rank fireball clashes with a C rank fireball, what would happen to the A rank fireball with its power after it has overcome the C rank fireball?
    This will create a slightly weakened A rank fireball, it works like this.
    C+C = B rank jutsu, and B+B = A rank jutsu.
    This means that a C rank jutsu is the ¼ of an A rank jutsu. So you could basically say that, C+C+C+C=A rank jutsu. The C rank jutsu has enough force to take out the quarter of the A rank jutsu. This creates a jutsu which is strong enough to take out a B rank jutsu, but not strong enough to take out an A rank jutsu; a weakened A rank jutsu.

    First of all, a ‘weakened A rank jutsu’ is too obscure. You wouldn’t know what the exact amount of damage it deals, and you also don’t know what it takes to cancel out the weakened A rank jutsu. It’s very important to know by what rank jutsu the A rank jutsu was weakened.

    As I just mentioned before, C+C+C+C=A rank. If The A rank jutsu got weakened by a C rank jutsu, it’d be equal to C+C+C (C+C+C+C - C = C+C+C). So in fact, you’ll need a jutsu with the power equal to 3 C rank jutsus, or higher to cancel the 'by C rank weakened A rank jutsu’. You could cancel it out with an A rank jutsu, but then again, the question would be, how does the A rank jutsu continue, after it has cancelled out a ‘by C rank jutsu weakened A rank jutsu’. If you think logically, it’s just a simple calculation.

    C+C+C = a ( by C rank) weakened A rank jutsu, ( or a (by C rank) strengthened B rank jutsu) (3C)
    C+C+C+C= A rank jutsu (4C)

    You’ll get a calculation like this: 4C – 3C = C
    So the A rank jutsu negates the weak A rank jutsu, and continues as a C rank jutsu.

    But it is also possible to have something like a ‘by D rank weakened A rank jutsu’.
    D+D+D+D+D+D+D+D (8D) = A rank, because D+D = C, and C+C+C+C = A
    So this means that 8 D rank jutsus are together equal to 1 A rank jutsu in terms of power. So that means that a D rank jutsu can only take out 1/8th power out of an A rank jutsu if they clash together. The A rank jutsu that continues in that case (after having negated the D rank jutsu), would be known as a ‘by a D rank jutsu weakened A rank jutsu’.

    If a ‘by D rank weakened A rank jutsu’ clashes with a regular A rank jutsu, the regular A rank jutsu would continue as a D rank technique, because it’s equal to 8D’s and the ‘by D rank weakened A rank jutsu’ is weakened by 7D’s, and 8D-7D = D.

    Note: If an A rank jutsu got weakened by 2 D rank jutsus, it would be the same as a ‘by a C rank jutsu weakened A rank jutsu’. It would be equal to 6D (D+D+D+D+D+D), which is the same as 3C (C+C+C), because one C is equal to two Ds (C+C).

    Damage points.
    Almost always, the damage points don’t really matter actually when it comes to the rank, but if you wonder what the damage points of a weakened jutsu is, you should work like this.

    Let’s say you have a S rank jutsu, which got weakened by a B rank jutsu, what would the damage be of the ‘by B rank weakened S rank jutsu’?
    Step 1)
    First, you need to know how many B rank jutsus are equal to a S rank jutsu in terms of power. A+A= S, and B+B= A. So 2 A rank jutsus are equal to 1 S rank jutsu, and 2 B rank jutsus are equal to 1 A rank jutsu, so 4 B rank jutsus are equal to 1 S rank jutsu.
    Step 2)
    Search up the damage points of the S rank jutsu, and calculate what ¼th is of the total damage points. Well, in our case we must know ¼th of 80, which is 20.
    Step 3)
    Subtract the 20 of the total damage points. 80-20= 60.
    Conclusion: A ‘by B rank weakened S rank jutsu’ deals 60 damage points.

    NOTE: Because it deals 60 damage points, it does not mean it’s as strong as a regular A rank jutsu. They deal the same amount of damage points, but they are not equal in terms of power! They both deal 60 damage points, but you could say it's just coincidence. A ‘by B rank weakened S rank jutsu’ is slightly stronger than an A rank jutsu, well to be exact, if they clash together, the weak S rank jutsu would continue as a B rank jutsu.

    How it works if you count elemental weaknesses and strengths.
    Okay, this part isn't very hard, in fact it's pretty easy. This is about elemental clashes if one of the jutsus has an advantage pertaining to the other jutsu.
    Well first of all it's very important to know this about the elemental weaknesses and strengths.
    Fire
    -Weak to water
    -Strong against wind


    Water
    -Weak against earth
    -Strong against fire


    Earth
    -Weak against lightning
    -Strong against water


    Lightning
    -Weak against wind
    -Strong against earth


    Wind
    -Weak against fire
    -Strong against lightning

    If you want to know more about elemental weaknesses and strengths read this thread.
    I'm pretty sure that almost all of you know about the weaknesses and strengths of the basic 5.

    But now the question is, how do you handle a situation like a clash between i.e. Wind and Fire. This is pretty easy, you have to do the same as what I've done the whole time, but then you must imagine that the weaker element needs twice as much power to be as strong as the element with the advantage. This sounds pretty rusty, but I'll give you a few examples.

    A rank Wind equals A rank Water in terms of power. If they clash together they'll cancel each other out, and if let's say the water is B rank, the Wind will cancel out the Water and continues with the power of a B rank technique. Because as explained before, B+B=A.
    So B rank water + B rank water equals A rank wind in terms of power.

    But if one of the elements has a weakness it works a little bit different.
    To cancel out Fire with wind, you need twice as much power than usually.
    so B rank wind + B rank wind isn't equal to A rank fire, but that is equal to B rank fire. To equal A rank fire in terms of power with only B rank wind, you need B+B+B+B. So A rank wind + A rank wind= S rank wind = A rank fire. So in order to cancel out A rank Fire, you need S rank wind. Then you must apply the same rules as I've explained before, here is an example.

    A B-rank lightning technique clashes with an A rank wind technique, what happens exactly?
    B rank lightning is 1/4th power of A rank wind, because B+B+B+B(lightning)=A(wind). This is because wind has an advantage against lightning. So now you would be applying the same rule, but imagine the B rank being a C rank jutsu if it was a normal circumstance. So the Wind will cancel out the B rank lightning, and doesn't continue as B rank wind, but as a 'by C-rank weakened A rank wind jutsu'.

    So you could use this rule in the case of an elemental clash, where one element is weak/strong against the other: Apply the same rule as explained in normal circumstances, but imagine the weak element being one rank lower.

    I liked making this thread, I hope this is clear enough and I hope that it's useful for a lot of members, even though this was probably obvious for a lot of people, and knew this already. I just wanted to make this to prevent confusion, because I faced this problems a few times and I also noticed that some other people also had some small problems with this. You could ask questions, or maybe you want me to explain a specific situation. If I made a mistake, please tell me so I can edit it out.


    **A few notes
    -I want to thank Akasha for the banners
    -and I want to thank Yard for explaining me a lot about it on skype
    -I'm posting it in this section, and if it's approved by Scorps,
    he'll move it to the Rules&Info section

    -Khallil-
     
         

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