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  1. #1
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    Rejection of Leading Tobi Theory (Possible Spoiler)

    This thread is not an attack on the “kagami uchiha being tobi theory” but I am asking that you understand the story a bit more before jumping to baseless hypothesis’s and out right objecting other’s theory’s.

    I figured it would be easier to go through the points made by the most current theory one by one so you can see my point.

    #1. I don’t think Kishi wanted to make it overly obvious that Tobi’s body is combined with Zetsu’s. Kishi wanted us to slowly realize that Tobi has the power of the Sot6P (having the Uchiha’s eyes and Zetsu’s body which is composed of Hashirama’s cells). This is why Kishi wanted to keep his face hidden. Also, he wanted us to think that Nagato was pulling the strings, and let the real enemy secretly be in the background. Kishi was building the suspense for us.

    #2. You are correct. It does sound like Tobi doesn’t consider himself to be the Madara that he wants to be. And, that’s because he’s not. Tobi considers himself a “mere shell of his former self.” Now you say that he’s trying to say he’s not the “real” Madara but there’s no evidence to go off here. I think it makes more sense that Tobi just doesn’t consider himself what he used to be and so talks in the third person at times.

    #3. There just in NOT enough evidence to tell who is the box. We can play guessing games all day with this question (as many do) but it will only be baseless argument. And honestly, I have a sneaking suspicion too that it might be Madara’s body but that doesn’t eliminate the possibility that Tobi is still Madara. (I’ll post at the end my thoughts about the contents of this box)

    #4. It’s EXTREMELY possible in the naruto universe that Madara has survived for this long. Look at kakuzu, or especially hidan, he was around since the first hokage. So why couldn’t Madara, who Tobi said has special chakara even for an uchiha, live this long…..Also, madara has already said that he fought hashirama at the final valley to obtain his cells (and possibly his wife’s cells since we’re lead to believe that she might have been present to seal the nine tails). So tobi could be using their chakra to live longer.

    #5. I find it curious that zetsu call’s madara tobi too, but maybe it’s just an old habit from madara being in disguise for so long. Truth is we don’t know and we can’t jump to baseless conclusions over such a small piece of info.

    #6. Madara makes it his business to know everything about everyone. If you haven’t noticed yet Madara is three steps ahead of everyone else. He knows exactly what you’ll do before you do it. And you wont do it because you wanted to but because madara put you in a situation where you had to do it. My point is don’t you think a person like that would have detailed intel on everyone in the villages, especially someone with such a unique power as turune aburame? And I would expect madara to have more intel on the hidden leaf than anybother being that helped found this village.
    I didn’t mean to be so long winded but hopefully you’ll see my point that there is no evidence whatsoever that suggests kagami uchiha is tobi…..however I would like you to consider this






    Tell me there isn’t a striking similarity here. I’m suggesting that kagami joined with Tobi>tobi implanted hashirama’s cells into kagami>transforming kagami into zetsu. The change in color skin could be a side effect from the wood element nature of the firsts cells. Also, this could explain the two personalities of zetsu. Danzo showed that hasirama’s cells have a tendency to take over the body if the user isn’t strong willed enough. So, kagami could have two personalities in him(his way of dealing with hashirama’s cells).
    I would like to finish by reminding everyone what Tobi is using Sasuke for…..the gedu statue. Tobi has said that he plans on using the gedu statue revival technique for himself (Tobi said this soon after nagato died). So, we have to wonder why does tobi plan on dyeing and being revived? It could be tobi’s way of returning to his original body….madara’s body….i could go into more depth here but I’m pretty sick of writing and need to go.

    Lots of love to all the hate this will probably lead to.
     
         

  2. #2
    Senior Member D3A's Avatar
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    Re: Rejection of Leading Tobi Theory (Possible Spoiler)

    ....no, just....no :flaw:
     
         

  3. #3
    Member tossedsalad's Avatar
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    Re: Rejection of Leading Tobi Theory (Possible Spoiler)

    Brought my laptop to work with me!

    I would also like to add that we have been told that black zetsu has the ability to record events that he watches. And we're also led to believe that white zetsu has hashirama's cells (since it's white zetsu out on the battlefield).

    We have seen that each sharingun seems to be a little unique (like shisui's sharingun having mind control). It could make sense that kagami's sharingun has the ability that black zetsu use and white zetsu is the embodiment of hashirama's cell.

    I'm not claiming that it makes perfect sense (but for that matter explain kakuzu). I am saying it's far more likely that kagami is zetsu rather than tobi.
     
         
    Last edited by tossedsalad; 07-15-2011 at 03:10 AM.

  4. #4
    is carbon based. Ira's Avatar
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    Re: Rejection of Leading Tobi Theory (Possible Spoiler)

    There is a sticky up there for all Madara id threads made by Scarface. post your theory in there.
     
         

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    Economical Truth kisamexRocks's Avatar
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    Re: Rejection of Leading Tobi Theory (Possible Spoiler)

    No, They probably used Zetsu image to make an easy image for Kagami. Thee lips, eyes and the hair is completely different. Madara Uchiha is Tobi. It's already confirmed. I don't know why you guys keep thinking otherwise.
     
         

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    Re: Rejection of Leading Tobi Theory (Possible Spoiler)

    Cool theory I liked it.
     
         

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    Re: Rejection of Leading Tobi Theory (Possible Spoiler)

    Quote Originally Posted by isthatnecessary View Post
    There is a sticky up there for all Madara id threads made by Scarface. post your theory in there.
    this is infact a zetsu theory if your read carfully, it was just unfortunatly named. he does not make his conclusion about madara but about the identity and origins of zetsu that just happen to be in contradiction with some current madara = kagami theory's.

    personaly I like the idea of zetsu originaly being someone else and I've always thought of black zetsu as the original since there is only one of him, and that white zetsu is just a result of madara's experiments on the original zetsu. but I never conciderd that black zetsu might also be a creation of madara's experiments. perhaps he was able to persuade kagami to let himself be subjected to these experiments and kagami's personality was changed into black zetsu as a means of self preservance, and hashirama's influence combined with kagami's personality became white zetsu.
    perhpas madara experimented on kagami to study the effects of hashirama's cells begin grafted into an uchiha and perfected the technique befor aplying it to himself.
    but this ofcourse is all speculation, there is no actual hard evidence, at least I don't concider a resemblence in image as evidence.
     
         

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    is carbon based. Ira's Avatar
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    Re: Rejection of Leading Tobi Theory (Possible Spoiler)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
    this is infact a zetsu theory if your read carfully, it was just unfortunatly named.
    Oh.. sorry.. I didn't pay attention.
     
         

  9. #9
    Wisdom and Courage Honord Sage's Avatar
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    Re: Rejection of Leading Tobi Theory (Possible Spoiler)

    First His Name is Madara, Tobi was a disguise Madara use to spies on His men. Second Zetsu was created by Madara from the DNA stolen from the First Hokage.
     
         

  10. #10
    霧隠れの怪人 Tupac's Avatar
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    Re: Rejection of Leading Tobi Theory (Possible Spoiler)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
    this is infact a zetsu theory if your read carfully, it was just unfortunatly named. he does not make his conclusion about madara but about the identity and origins of zetsu that just happen to be in contradiction with some current madara = kagami theory's.

    personaly I like the idea of zetsu originaly being someone else and I've always thought of black zetsu as the original since there is only one of him, and that white zetsu is just a result of madara's experiments on the original zetsu. but I never conciderd that black zetsu might also be a creation of madara's experiments. perhaps he was able to persuade kagami to let himself be subjected to these experiments and kagami's personality was changed into black zetsu as a means of self preservance, and hashirama's influence combined with kagami's personality became white zetsu.
    perhpas madara experimented on kagami to study the effects of hashirama's cells begin grafted into an uchiha and perfected the technique befor aplying it to himself.
    but this ofcourse is all speculation, there is no actual hard evidence, at least I don't concider a resemblence in image as evidence.
    i get what you are saying, thats probably why the white zetsu is so happy and talks so much. because of his life force. good theroy my man.
     
         

  11. #11
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    Re: Rejection of Leading Tobi Theory (Possible Spoiler)

    Quote Originally Posted by Honord Sage View Post
    First His Name is Madara, Tobi was a disguise Madara use to spies on His men. Second Zetsu was created by Madara from the DNA stolen from the First Hokage.
    1. I will always refer to Tobi as Tobi until he is proven to be Madara (I find it too odd that Zetsu always refers to him as Tobi, especially since Zetsu is the only member of the group that has always known Tobi's full plan).

    2. We don't have the detailed story on zetsu yet so we can't say that zetsu was simply made from hashirama cells, hence my theory.

    I do like to think that Tobi is Madara and that leaves Kagami as a mystery man that will have to fit into the story somewhere. I think it makes sense that kishi would give him the role of zetsu.
     
         

  12. #12
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    Re: Rejection of Leading Tobi Theory (Possible Spoiler)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
    this is infact a zetsu theory if your read carfully, it was just unfortunatly named. he does not make his conclusion about madara but about the identity and origins of zetsu that just happen to be in contradiction with some current madara = kagami theory's.

    but this ofcourse is all speculation, there is no actual hard evidence, at least I don't concider a resemblence in image as evidence.
    i really wasn't trying to use the images as my hardcore piece of evidence, it was just the first thing that popped the idea into my head. And you're right that we can't be sure of any of it. I just wanted people to see that just because Kagami is a mystery man in the naruto story that doesn't make him a valid candidate to be Tobi, and if anything it made more sense that he was Zetsu.
     
         

  13. #13
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    Re: Rejection of Leading Tobi Theory (Possible Spoiler)

    Quote Originally Posted by kisamexRocks View Post
    No, They probably used Zetsu image to make an easy image for Kagami. Thee lips, eyes and the hair is completely different. Madara Uchiha is Tobi. It's already confirmed. I don't know why you guys keep thinking otherwise.
    I don't really see how the lips are different, but my theory does say the hair transformation could be a result of hashirama's cells (plant-like green hair). And that the split personalities (black=kagami, white=hasirama) is a result of Kagami coping with hashirama's cellular take over...instead of Hashirama taking over the body Kagami found a balance between himself and the 1st's cells, but it also resulted in a type of schizophrenia.

    If you read my post at all you would see that I'm not saying Tobi isn't Madara (if anything what I wrote supports that Madara is Tobi), I'm saying Kagami isn't Tobi.
     
         
    Last edited by tossedsalad; 07-15-2011 at 01:20 PM.

  14. #14
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    Re: Rejection of Leading Tobi Theory (Possible Spoiler)

    Quote Originally Posted by isthatnecessary View Post
    Oh.. sorry.. I didn't pay attention.
    no problems, at first I came to the post with the same thought in mind as you

    Quote Originally Posted by Honord Sage View Post
    First His Name is Madara, Tobi was a disguise Madara use to spies on His men. Second Zetsu was created by Madara from the DNA stolen from the First Hokage.
    correction: White zetsu was created Using the dna stolen from the first hokage, that is all we know for sure, the rest is just speculation. we know nothing for sure of black zetsu's origins or background.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tupac View Post
    i get what you are saying, thats probably why the white zetsu is so happy and talks so much. because of his life force. good theroy my man.
    thanks but I just built on tossedsalad's theory
     
         

  15. #15
    Kimblee Vs. Kisame Floydical's Avatar
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    Re: Rejection of Leading Tobi Theory (Possible Spoiler)

    Quote Originally Posted by tossedsalad View Post
    1. I will always refer to Tobi as Tobi until he is proven to be Madara (I find it too odd that Zetsu always refers to him as Tobi, especially since Zetsu is the only member of the group that has always known Tobi's full plan).

    2. We don't have the detailed story on zetsu yet so we can't say that zetsu was simply made from hashirama cells, hence my theory.

    I do like to think that Tobi is Madara and that leaves Kagami as a mystery man that will have to fit into the story somewhere. I think it makes sense that kishi would give him the role of zetsu.
    I understand your speculation in regard to the Kagami = Tobi theory, but I think the main reason for people's excitement in this theory is the total mystery that Kishi has surrounded Kagami with.

    As at least one person has said, it would be just like Kishi for him to show us one small detail once, and then drop a bomb in regard to the issue later. Where we can then look back and say, "Hey, we shoulda saw that coming! It was so obvious!" But the truth is that Kagami has absolutely no motive for doing what Tobi has done. Really the only explanation is that something happened between the time of the 2nd's death and the Nine-Tails attack on Konoha. Either Kagami was captured and, perhaps, assimilated by Madara/ Zetsu or his personality/ beliefs changed drastically for some reason. I have to admit that Kagami does resemble Zetsu, but that proves nothing.

    Remember when we saw Sai's brother as an IWR? His appearance has the same exact model as Sakura's. Without the cooler, Sai's brother and Sakura look identical. It may be the same matter with Kagami/ Zetsu.

    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/518/16

    And don't forget that small changes in appearance happen with characters overtime, even by Kishi's standards. So appearance really has no final say in anything.

    As a final note, I am ecstatic that someone else believes what I do in regard to Zetsu calling Madara Tobi. I mean most details in this manga seem cut and dry to me, having no room for interpretation. This issue, however, has a lot of people buzzing. The way I see it, Zetsu was Madara's creation and ever since he created him, he has referred to himself as Tobi. If you met someone and formed a relationship with them over time, you would get used to calling that person by the name they gave themselves. Lets say later on, you found out this person was a criminal on the run and that their actual name was something else. No matter what, you would still think of that person as the person you formed a relationship with, its human nature.

    My point here? I'm saying that Zetsu has gotten used to calling Madara Tobi and it really is an old habit that's dieing hard. People really think that this is evidence to the contrary, but it seems cut and dry to me that it is a simple habit of Zetsu's. I really do like your theory though, perhaps Kagami is involved somehow, perhaps assimilated by Madara and used for his DNA, or perhaps your right about the appearance and he was used a model for Zetsu. Its all very intriguing.
     
         

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    Senior Member Sasuke2's Avatar
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    Re: Rejection of Leading Tobi Theory (Possible Spoiler)

    If Zetsu knew that Tobi is Madara, why he called him stupid ?
     
         

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    Re: Rejection of Leading Tobi Theory (Possible Spoiler)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasuke2 View Post
    If Zetsu knew that Tobi is Madara, why he called him stupid ?
    what chapter is that?
     
         

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    Re: Rejection of Leading Tobi Theory (Possible Spoiler)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasuke2 View Post
    If Zetsu knew that Tobi is Madara, why he called him stupid ?
    Cuz Zetsu can call Madara w/e the f**k he wants.
     
         

  19. #19
    Senior Member Sasuke2's Avatar
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    Re: Rejection of Leading Tobi Theory (Possible Spoiler)

    Quote Originally Posted by pungzeyez View Post
    what chapter is that?
    When he took Sasori's ring .. Tobi's 1st appearance
     
         

  20. #20
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    Re: Rejection of Leading Tobi Theory (Possible Spoiler)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasuke2 View Post
    When he took Sasori's ring .. Tobi's 1st appearance
    Zetsu likes Madara's Alias more than his actual name, Tobi is more fun to say
     
         

  21. #21
    Senior Member Sasuke2's Avatar
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    Re: Rejection of Leading Tobi Theory (Possible Spoiler)

    Yes but Zetsu said that Tobi is stupid ... :flaw:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/280/19
    I dont think he know Tobi=Madara at this point
     
         
    Last edited by Sasuke2; 07-16-2011 at 06:54 PM.

  22. #22
    Kimblee Vs. Kisame Floydical's Avatar
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    Re: Rejection of Leading Tobi Theory (Possible Spoiler)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasuke2 View Post
    Yes but Zetsu said that Tobi is stupid ... :flaw:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/280/19
    I dont think he know Tobi=Madara at this point
    Naw, he did know who he was. The scene was purposely dramatized by Kishi considering it was Tobi's first appearance. But this does imply early on that Zetsu and Tobi were essentially equals, meaning they have mutual respect for one another. This has been made apparent at multiple points through the story, meaning they have not only known each other for a long time, but they have respect for one another and have room to joke with each other.
     
         

  23. #23
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    give it a rest, all ready!!
     



    Re: Rejection of Leading Tobi Theory (Possible Spoiler)

    Awesome theory dude... hope it works out..
     
         

  24. #24
    Senior Member natssuu's Avatar
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    Re: Rejection of Leading Tobi Theory (Possible Spoiler)

    Quote Originally Posted by Floydical View Post
    Naw, he did know who he was. The scene was purposely dramatized by Kishi considering it was Tobi's first appearance. But this does imply early on that Zetsu and Tobi were essentially equals, meaning they have mutual respect for one another. This has been made apparent at multiple points through the story, meaning they have not only known each other for a long time, but they have respect for one another and have room to joke with each other.
    If Zetsu knew who Tobi was, Tobi had no reason to act like an idiot.
     
         

  25. #25
    Kimblee Vs. Kisame Floydical's Avatar
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    Re: Rejection of Leading Tobi Theory (Possible Spoiler)

    Quote Originally Posted by natssuu View Post
    If Zetsu knew who Tobi was, Tobi had no reason to act like an idiot.
    .......I just said that Kishi purposely dramatized it. There is no way that Kishi would show us the real Tobi right off the bat, then have him act like an idiot later. He had to deceive us from the beginning or the whole crazy Tobi Identify would have been worthless. Get it now? Despite the fact that only Zetsu and Tobi were present at the time, Kishi made sure to not let us in on their secret at that point.
     
         

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