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Itachi would win this IMO. He knows a bit about Danzo and is aware that he has shisui's eye. Itachi knows better than anyone not to look into a sharingan users eyes when fighting them, afterall he spent his entire life fodderizing 99% of the ninja he came across simply by looking at them.
If he had no knowledge i'd give Danzo a higher chance but still favor Itachi.
no it isnt. he placed it in naruto, and even if he had it in his possession, that particular eye hadnt recharged yet and was thus useless. otherwise like bee said, why NOT just use it on sasuke?
except izanami is unwieldy and not meant to be used in a fight, only when there are more than one izanagi user and they cant decide on what to reverse.
with koto it doesnt matter what itachi does, he will still be forced to obey danzo.
You know I always accept when Im wrong.
And you Sir, proved me wrong.
You take Itchi at his peak (just like Danzo). At his peak, Itachi has Shi Sui's eye, and can program it to do anything. He will be wary of Danzo having Shi Sui's other eye, and can approach via long distance genjutsu or shadow clone to make him waste it. Itachi is portrayed as being such a genius, he's almost psychic, able to see events years in advance sometimes. He can hit blind spots even though it makes no sense. If he loses all his senses, he still knows what Kabuto is going to do and can counter. He can also put Danzo under Genjutsu instantly too (if Sasuke could, Itachi can), and is faster than Danzo (and pretty much every character at making seals). Remember, once Mifune was told he was under Danzo's influence, the genjutsu broke... Mifune didn't turn around and say "don't be ridiculous guys, I can't be under genjutsu", so there is a limit to what it can do (or a limit to what Danzo's one can do, which may or may not be slightly different to Itachi's- in the same way Tobi's 2 eyes use Kamui slightly differently). Itachi for the win.
except knowing about something doesnt mean you can counter it. and KA doesnt require eyesight since danzo used it from behind a bandage
It does require line of sight though. So if Itachi rocks up with a clone or genjutsu version of himself while his real self is hidden, then Danzo wastes Koto on the clone (much like when Itachi wastes his genjutsu on Kakashi's clone), and after that Itachi stomps home.
except its blank and hasnt recharged. if he cna use it why didnt he before?
Itachi explains why he didn't use it before. Fail. When Itachi had it, it still worked. As far as we know, Itachi never used it.
if itachis gonna do that then give danzo some credit and have him wait to use it till itachis too exhausted to do anything else
Danzo has no way to distinguish between the real thing and a genjutsu though... you can't have it both ways... Danzo can't "use Koto instantly", but also "wait for the right time, etc". If he waits for the right time, you're assuming he's going to be able to outsmart super genius Itachi, who is portrayed as being almost clairvoyant in terms of his ability to predict people (hits blind spots, even though it's impossible... knows what Kabuto will do even though he can't see or sense him... can predict how people will react years and plan intricate scenarios years in advance... sorry, but I'm not liking Danzo's chances in a "long battle", and since Itachi knows he has Shi Sui's other eye, there's no chance of him not being ready).
izanagi > any other genjutsu except KA. also danzo knows more about itachi than sasuke and wouldnt look at itachis eyes or underestimate him
Except that counter to it... the one that only one Shinobi to date has shown he can use... who was that again?
irrelevant. sasuke was and that didnt save him, karin did
What I mean is that Itachi may well be able to react before Danzo can. And all Itachi needs is a moment, and then Danzo is dead. There's no margin of error for Danzo at all.
because danzo allowed it to. it doesnt matter if you know your under KA or not. itachi did and he didnt go right back to being under ET did he?
Purest speculation on your part. The point is that it is escapable, and that's bad because Itachi knows it is coming, and can plan in advance (maybe programming the crow to come out, and nullifying it).
There's some really made up stuff here, so much it's actually embarassing.
Originally Posted by USSJ Future Trunks
yeah..ok he wastes koto. except you cant cast genjutsu on a genjutsu.
What? Where did this made up claim come from? Purely made up on your part. Moreover, Itachi's long range genjutsu clones are made of crows, and have physical form. They're clones as much as they are genjutsu, and clones can definitely be affected by genjutsu. If Danzo tries Koto on a clone or long range genjutsu clone, then he wastes it, and it's gone.
if danzos caught in one then he says "release" and tries again.
itachi wouldnt know danzo had izanagi,
Itachi knows what Izanagi is... as soon as he sees Danzo make the seals, he'll know what's up. He'd also know, because he'll be able to pick up the abnormal amount of chakra Danzo has, as well as the different colours coming off his arm and think "gee, that's odd". Plus Itachi, who was dead when Danzo fought Sasuke, already knew Hashi's cells would boost Shi Sui's eye (which Danzo had), so it's pretty easy for him to guess Danzo would try to use them to bolster Shi Sui's power. Moreover, he's going to figure out damn quickly when Danzo doesn't die.
therefore due to sharingan perception, he can know if its a clone, or deal damage to itachi so he knows its the real one. genjutsu itachis turn to crows as do crow bunshins. danzo waited till the end of his battle with sasuke to resort to KA so he was sure he would be hitting a real person with it.
1) I've already explained why Danzo can't "wait", because Itachi has the potential to one-shot him (before he even has a chance to activate Izanagi). If he waits, Itachi can kill him instantly with genjutsu (and unlike Sasuke's "infinitely inferior" genjutsu, one hit will see Danzo go down, Izanagi or not. One hit with the one-shot sword (that Danzo won't even recognise until it's too late) will also finish him. One shot with Shi Sui's eye will finish Danzo. So Danzo risk instant death if he tries to "wait Itachi out". If he acts right away, he might be throwing away his only chance to win. In that game of chess, I'm taking Itachi every time.
2) Danzo didn't wait because he was being careful, he waited because he'd just used Koto against Mifune, and couldn't use it again so soon.
but since sasuke didnt rely on clones he would have won if it was recharged from the beginning. a kage level shinobi wouldnt go braindead and use their best move on a clone like a moron.
Like when all 5 Kage thought they were beating on Madara, but actually sealed a clone? Or like when the 2nd Mizukage was fooled (twice) by Gaara's sand clones? Or like the time Onoki, Gaara and Naruto were fooled by Mu's double? Or like the time Jiraiya used his best genjutsu on Pain's fake bodies, and was killed? Or maybe you mean like the time Sasuke was fooled by Deidara's clay clone. Etc, etc. People can be fooled (and have been by Itachi's clones and genjutsu's before). Danzo has no way to be sure, so yeh, he could easily be tricked into wasting it... this is Itachi we're talking about here. A guy who is beyond a Kage level himself.
bee: so ya fool why didnt you use it on sasuke
itachi: i couldnt. shisuis eyes take 10 years to recharge, discounting hashirama senju chakra.
so the eye was useless the entire time alive itachi ahd it otherwise why not just use it on him before dying and save himself the trouble of worrying whether obito will turn sasuke to the dark side?
That makes no sense though, and always bothered me, because Shi Sui tells us it works (he was going to use it to end the coup), and gives it to Itachi, and since then we know of no time Itachi uses it. Itachi also hasn't been dead long in the comic book world, so it makes no sense that he'd give something to Naruto that wouldn't work, when he'd potentially need it ASAP (and did need it ASAP). How long has even passed since Itachi's death? A month? Two? It's also been less than 10 years since Shi Sui's death, so if the eye had been used in that time, it wouldn't be active (as it so clearly was, when Naruto used it). It's either an inconsistent plot hole of Kishi's, or we just read it in a way which suggests Itachi didn't want it wasted "given the 10 year use), and preferred to try and help Sasuke genuinely change, with Koto as the back up plan.
uh...sharingan? also genjutsus are severely obvious.
The more powerful the genjutsu, the harder it is to see through, and nobody has better genjutsu than Itachi... we've seen very powerful Sharigan users fail to see through his illusions (like Sasuke). The idea Danzo can see through it (when he's already got to be careful not to overuse his eye, and only pulls it up to use it in a limited way), is hopelessly optimistic. Danzo is effected multiple times by Sasuke's genjutsu, but he's going to easily see through Itachi's? I don't think so. And unlike Sasuke's genjutsu, one shot kills Danzo (see scan above).
sasuke used a subtle one to make danzo think he had more izanagi time, but itachi never used subtle genjutsus. all of his genjutsus are blatant mindrape attempts.
Itachi never uses subtle genjuts?!!! Ridiculous, not worthy of a reply. I'm also not sure I see the subtlety in Sasuke using a genutsu to make Danzo think Itachi is burning him with Ameratsu.
anything tsukiyomi does to danzo is instantly made worthless by izanagi reversing.
Um, no. Izanagi can be used to connect the users dreams to reality, but it isn't magic... the user has to make the changes through conscious choice... and that's hard to do when you've been mind raped and are suffering from unbearable psychological trauma. Izanagi doesn't alter the mental state of the user, merely the physical reality around them. Danzo will be lying on the floor drooling the second he's hit with Itachi's "mind rape" genjutsu. Assuming he's not trapped in Izanami instead.
sure itachi can put danzo in the finger one or the stakes one.but when has that ever worked? didnt stop orochimaru from moving to cancel it. and it only stopped naruto cos he was a noob.
Sasuke and Kakashi were in hospital for weeks on the verge of death because of the psychological trauma. Oro wasn't being tortured, if Itachi felt like it, he would have done so... Oro down for the count.
anyway why do you think danzo doesnt have genjutsus of his own? if itachi cant know when and how danzo is gonna use KA how cna he prepare for it?
Because this forum isn't about making up abilities to prop your character? And in this case, it's hopelessly optimistic, counter-intuitive inventions... "how do we know Danzo doesn't have genjutsu's that can affect Itachi...?!" Are you serious... if I'm going to give a character the genjutsu to affect the best genjutsu user we've seen in the manga, I'm going to want some evidence for it... for which there is zero.
how can he do seals and make a clone or genjutsu faster than danzo can use izanagi, "teleport" behind him and use shisuis eye on him? if itachi tries to beat danzo forcefully, how is he going to last long enough to use up the 10 sharingans when his stamina sucks ass?
Well, for one we've seen Itachi make clones so fast nobody can credit it's possible (or even noticed him do it), and more than once. So yeh, he can definitely do it. But Danzo needs to use seals to activate Izanagi anyway, so you're asking a dumb question: "why can't Danzo use seals, acivate Izanagi, and then move behind Itachi before he can use seals". The first answer is "um, because Itachi is faster with seals?". The next one is that Izanagi doesn't allow "teleportation" from what we've seen. Rather, Danzo is able to relocate his body after it's destroyed (but not otherwise). Given we're told Danzo has an 'incomplete' form of Izanagi as is, we can't just grant such abilities to him.
Danzo knows nothing about the Totsuka blade or Yata mirror either, and if he thought Sasuke's defence was tough, wait till he gets a load of Itachi's... all of which ignores the fact Itachi will be ending the fight before Danzo gets 10 minutes.
no they cant. and if they can, danzos sharingan knows they are clones and doesnt bother. or he can wait in his izanagi till itachis too exhausted to do anything
This power has never been shown as a generic sharingan power, and if you want Danzo to have it, you have to prove it. If Itachi's illusions can fool powerful guys like Sasuke, you're going to need evidence Danzo can just see through it.
how od you know he is though? danzo's seals was slower than susano arrow but thats a very fast attack anyway. itachi was supposedly faster than kakashis borrowed 3 tomoe could keep up with. danzo has 11 of those things, and hashi chakra
This sentence makes no sense... are you seriously suggesting Danzo is faster than one of the fastest characters in the comics when it comes to ninjutsu and seal forming? Really? Itachi is so fast with seals characters are repeatedly stunned he was able to weave the signs in time (and his only failures come from a battle he was losing on purpose to Sasuke, and while his body was dying).
we know everyone can be affected by genjutsu. its breaking out thats the trouble and itachi has been better than most at that.
So you have no evidence at all? Stop suggesting it then.
they wont matter nor affect the fight since itachi's stamina with susano is horrible. guy wiht senju stamina > guy without it
Itachi uses these for a decent amount of time despite his body being about to die, and Edo Itachi shows us what Itachi would be like if he used these techs without being about to die. This is prime Itachi, not dying Itachi.
its hard but once done, izanagi makes it so those 72 hours never happened
Completely made up on your part. Izanagi demonstrates no such power of time alteration, Danzo shows he is only able to affect the physical world (consciously), if his mind is fried he can't do that, because he'll lack the consciousness and will to do it. Izanagi isn't like auto shields... Danzo has to consciously use it.
Just some ridiculous remarks here, of which these are only a few. You are embarassing yourself.
but it can reverse the damage done on his mind just as it does on his body.
As I said, completely made up on your part. Go back and read earlier rebuttals. Every indication is that this is not auto-shields or Wolverine's healing factor that just "kicks in"... Danzo has to consciously change reality... which he will be unable to do when reduced to a vegetable... which Itachi can do in a moment with 1 genjutsu. We also have no evidence Izanagi can change the mental state of the user, rather than just psychical reality (certainly we have no evidence to grant Danzo's "incomplete" izanagi such a power).
im sure he lacked consciousness when pulverised into fine paste by sasukes susano
His physical body was destroyed, but under the Izanagi his body seems irrelevant, because the physical world is no more than a dream for him to manipulate (to a limited degree anyway). His psyche is not part of the physical world, it's the thing which he needs to manipulate the physical world... if his mind is toast, he can't do that. And we see he's twice affected by genjutsu during the izanagi, and there is no "auto undo" from Izanagi... so it's not even vague, it's very clear he is affected by genjutsu during it... end fight.
unquantifiable since we never seen a prime itachi
We know some of what he can do, including "no run out of stamina and start coughing blood inexplicably because he's dying". Based on what we saw dying Itachi do, it's hard to believe he's going to have any problems here.
all sharingan users cna do it so why is the burden of proof on me? it is in fact a generic power. sasuke saw through clones multiple times against naruto. only moku bunshins are advanced enough to not be seen through
Sasuke never did this with the sharingan, in fact he's been fooled before, and it's not a generic power, so we can't assume it... we also can't grant it because Itachi's illusions/clones have fooled people with the sharingan... like Sasuke, the very guy you're invoking to support your argument, so the idea Danzo (with his inferior Sharingan, and less skill and power behind it, can just see through frickin Itachi's clones/genjutsu is utterly unsubstantiated in the manga).
no not repeatedly. kakashi was the only time where somoene was surprised at itachis seal speed. hebi sasuke managed to interrupt his seal forming. and since itachis arrogant he also repeatedly failed to keep up the attack on his enemy and lets them use their moves.
Kakashi was fighting a copy of Itachi with a fraction of his power. We also know Itachi was a triple agent, and so have good reason to doubt he ever tried to kill or beat Konoha people seriously (as Kakashi asks after his first taste of Tsukyumoi "why didn't he just kill me"... now we know... because Itachi was really on Konoha's side).
Same deal v.s Sasuke (we definitely know he tanked that fight), and even moreso, we now know Ameratsu doesn't require seals, making Itachi's need to use them in that one instance (but not other times, and nor did Sasuke need to make seals other times, and it is listed as not requiring seals as it is a dojutsu) a bizarre plot hole, which we ignore in these fights (because you take peak Itachi, not low end illogical showing Itachi, and consistent peak Itachi/Sasuke/Manga is clear that Ameratsu requires no seals). But again, you're invoking a fight in which Itachi wanted to lose as an eg... rather than all the times everyone is like "holy F#@$, I can't belive how fast we could weave the signs!"
(turns out Itachi was a genjutsu clone, or he already had Danzo under Genjutsu before he could use it, or the crow with Shi Sui's eye is programmed to appear when that it senses someone using Koto and counteracts it, and/or he sets Danzo on fire before Koto kicks in).
Itachi knows Koto is coming, so he's going to be ready for it... and he's fricking Itachi, so it's basically a given he will outsmart Danzo.
dont you think danzo would expect that itachi would expect it? he kind of was shisuis best friend.
When it comes to who will win the "I predicted that" game, I'll take Itachi over Danzo every time, and I think most sensible people would too.
he cant overpower him though. tsukiyomi mindrape is erased by izanagi. and any damage done to danzo if hes in some other type of genjutsu is also erased and turned to a dream. unless your saying itachi kills him before danzo raises his hand.
Except this lie has been called on before... there is no proof of Izanagi doing any such thing, and indeed the reverse as Danzo is trapped in Genjutsu twice by Izanagi. You can't invent abilities for Danzo to help him win.
izanagi lols at ammy
Which Danzo will have formed the seals for after being hit by... and remember, Izanagi does not undo damage that was inflicted before the Izanagi took place (which was why Danzo needed to use the Wood tech to dodge the arrow, and couldn't undo the injury he got without izanagi)
izanagi turns reality into a dream. what is made up about that? i was TOLD that by the manga
And the manga showed us some limits on that power, even calling Danzo's "an incomplete form of Izanagi".
so he was conscious after being made into fine paste by sasukes susano? what a tough one
Re-read my previous post. The answer has not changed.
its changing of reality itself. you cant divide between mental and physical reality.
Well, we clearly can because:
a) Danzo only ever shows an ability to change the physical world, and more importantly
b) Danzo is twice fooled by Genjutsu while in Izanagi, meaning if he could control the mental world on a whim in the same way he could control the physical, genjutsu would be equally meaningless to him... clearly it wasn't.
Danzo gets the powers he showed, but not ones he didn't. You can argue Danzo's consciousness exists independently of his body, or that he has an auto regen to physical damage (at a stretch), but since he shows no auto-shield to genjutsu, he doesn't get it, which means his mind gets raped, and he's a vegetable... and since a vegetable can't consciously change reality, he can't "undo it", and it won't "auto-undo" because the other 2 genjutsu's weren't "auto-undone".
And no, the genjutsu's didn't "auto-end", indeed Danzo was fooled by the last one until the very end, and the first one initially (in spite of it using a guy he knew was dead as the attacker, and congratulates Sasuke for trapping him in genjutsu... it ends because Sasuke is paralysed by a Seal right after).