Round 1 Pool 3: ~Puppet Master~ Vs. TobisPawn

  1. Floydical
    Kakashi vs. SM Naruto(created by Uzumaki16)

    ~Puppet Master~: Kakashi

    TobisPawn: SM Naruto

    Restrictions: Kakashi has no access to Kamui, Naruto only has his powers up to the battle with Pain and has no access to the Kyuubi's chakra. In addition, while Naruto enters the battle in sage mode, he does not have means to replenish his SM chakra through reserve clones.

    Knowledge: Full. Meaning they each know all of eachother's abilities that are within the restrictions.

    Starting Distance: 50 metres

    Location: Forest of Death

    Intent: Kill

    To clarify some things from my postings, you are limited to 15 post total that will be counted for scoring. From your 16th post on, you will not get credit for anything you stated. Keep all responses to a maximum of 20 lines, if you notice your response is more than that after posting it, please edit it as soon as you notice. If you have any posts at the end of the debate with more than 20 lines, you will get a DQ. This obviously does not count images you post or links you post to show evidence from the manga, only your lines of text. If you apply titles of some sort to clarify sections of your post this will not be counted either, again, only lines of text count. If you have any specific questions about the match, message me or Uzumaki and we will clarify it in this thread. Again, do not post in this thread until you are posting an argument, any and all posts you make count toward the 15 total.

    Either one of you can post first. Begin!
  2. TobisPawn
    Alright. I guess I'll start off. I'll begin with what Naruto will bring to the table (Summons). Naruto can easily summon his boss toads along with Ma and Pa. Seeing that Kakashi will already have enough on his hands with these three massive toads, he wont be making it near Ma and Pa anytime soon. So Ma and Pa will have an easy time prepping a Frog Song. That, or they can even "snipe" and distort Kakashi's sight from afar. And seeing that it appears to be a Genjutsu based on hearing, Kakashi will be hard-pressed with it, just as Sasuke and Itachi were with a similar Genjutsu. Not only that, but Ma and Pa can use wind to soak Kakashi in oil quit easily, allowing Naruto to use his enhanced speed to run over and tag Kakashi with some explosives (as he did against Gaara). Kakashi wont be able to keep up with Naruto in CQC, due to Frog Katas, boss toads backing him up and overwhelming Kakashi, and just Naruto's superior strength overall. And it should be noted that SM Naruto can sense attacks quicker than Kakashi can, suggesting that Kakashi's Sharingan precog will be evened out, if not overwhelmed just by Naruto's sheer strength and overwhelming numbers.

    I'll close my first post, and as tl;dr say that Kakashi is simply overwhelmed. Three huge toads engaging in CQC alongside SM Naruto, on top of Ma and Pa sniping with Genjutsu and Ninjutsu from long range. Kakashi can't keep up, especially without Kamui. Basically, while Kakashi's trying to deal with an already-superior Taijutsu user, he'll also be stuck with three bone-crushing summons and two Genjutsu-specialists to, well, rape him in an utter stomp.
  3. TobisPawn
    And now to get more into Taijutsu. Naruto is simply the better Taijutsu use here. He has arguably better stamina, much more strength, superior sensing and precog, arguably better reflexes, and better CQC moves overall. While Kakashi's being sniped with Ma and Pa's Genjutsu and Fuitons, the boss toads can also ambush poor Kakashi from all three sides and probably kill him. But for the sake of the debate, while Kakashi's being pressed by the five toads that can arguably beat him, Naruto can prep a Rasenshuriken and throw it at Kakashi, who'll be distorted by the Genjutsu to be able to react appropriately. And in the case that Kakashi miraculously dodges it while also dealing with Gamabunta and the others, Naruto can instantly expand FRS and essentially cut Kakashi clean in half. I honestly do not see how Kakashi will be able to counter the boss toads in CQC, counter/deal with Ma and Pa's Genjutsu and Ninjutsu, while avoiding a FRS clean to the face. Heck, Ma can shoot a Dust Cloud, blinding Kakashi (he couldn't see in Zabuza's mist either), and giving Naruto and the toads an even easier time in dominating him in the darkness. Kakashi can't react to attacks from 4, arguably 5, different directions. Added to that, Naruto, if he manages to grab Kakashi in the dust (which should be easy), he can toss him in the air, have Ma and Pa hit him with a Frog Song (completely immobilizing him), and then have his toad-bros finish him.
  4. TobisPawn
    On top of those two aspects above, Naruto, along with his toad-bros, completely outclasses Kakashi in Ninjutsu. Kakashi can make one clone at a time, SM Naruto can make up to two (arguably more, as he did have two clones meditating at MTM). And these clones outclass and outnumber Kakashi's. Kakashi can cut boulders, yet Naruto can cut whatever the hell those are. And that still doesn't account for Naruto expanding his FRS. And, seeing that a regular Rasengan is more or less equal to a Chidori, I'm confident Two Giant Rasengans can beat a Raikiri. And Kakashi has Suiton, but Gamabunta has more-versatile water bullets that matched Shukaku's Fuuton that has very impressive cutting power. Kakashi has Doton, but Naruto has Rasengans or three building-sized toads to smash it. Kakashi simply can't keep up with so much Ninjutsu power and variety. If he goes for one target, 3-5 others will hit him with combinations including any of Rasengan, FRS, Water Bullets, Oil, Fuuton, or paralysis. Kakashi just can't handle this with his not-so-impressive Ninjutsu (when compared to Team Naruto's).

    Oh, and I'll talk about Kakashi's summons. Their sensing isn't really useful as the battle will probably be large-scale and open. And when Naruto does use dust and such distractions, his toads, Ma, or Pa can hold off/paralyze/kill Kakashi's dogs (which don't have very impressive fighting feats). Kakashi's outclassed in summons too. I guess I'll close my opening, and wait for your responses, and then counter those. But I absolutely cannot see Kakashi dealing with 3 toads, Ma, Pa, Naruto, and clones all at once.
  5. ~Uzumaki~
    Remember TobisPawn you are limited to this one SM for the entire duration of the match. You aren't allowed to have another one.
  6. ~Puppet Master~
    ~Puppet Master~
    Well, that's a big intro. Let me start by countering some of your arguments here.

    The first thing I had doubts about was wether Naruto can actually summon all those toads, meaning the three boss toads and ma and pa, since it was Shima who summoned them, not Naruto. Also, his chakra reserves suffer from summoning that many and big summons which could shorten his Sage Mode, if not fully deplete it.

    Second, the starting distance is 50m, meaning the toads have to get closer to him first before being able to attack, that and the time it takes to summon them gives Kakashi plenty of time to use Hiding like a mole tech. Honestly, I don't see Naruto or the toads getting Kakashi since he can move out of attack range. He can then use Double Suicide Decapitation tech, that should incapacitate Naruto, allowing Kakashi to cut off his head which is an instant kill, also note that an attack from the toads in that situation could fatally harm Naruto as well. Kakashi can also use Naruto's smoke bombs/clouds to his advantage since he has his Ninken to track Naruto, he can use Silent Killing to kill Naruto in an instant, finishing the match using Naruto's own tech. Arguably, also note that Silent Killing does not necessarily require cover such as mist. What I've also had doubts about is the mobility of the toads, please remember that this fight takes place in the Forest of Death.
  7. ~Puppet Master~
    ~Puppet Master~
    Because of the 50m distance, Naruto won't have a lot of luck in taijutsu, but if it gets to that point, Kakashi can activate the 1st gate, allowing him to use 100% of his power instead of 20%, I can see Kakashi getting the upper hand in Taijutsu here.

    Kakashi can also use Naruto's weakness against him, genjutsu. Kakashi has shown to use genjutsu on two occasions, one against Sakura and one against ANBU members. So far, we've seen Naruto break out of Itachi's genjutsu, but it took a long time. Silent Killing combined with Raikiri could be the key here, this move would kill Naruto.

    And the frog song you speak so highly of, takes a lot of time to prepare, and the method I've described above is more than enough to kill Naruto, and not allowing the toads to act.

    How will Naruto counter this?
  8. Floydical
    ~Puppet Master~ has asked if Kakashi is in possession of Zabuza's blade in this fight. The answer is yes, he has access to the blade and any other tools he has been shown using in the manga.

    I apologize for the late response on this. ~Puppet Master~, if this fact changes your first 2 responses, you have permission to edit them accordingly if you wish.
  9. ~Puppet Master~
    ~Puppet Master~
    Alright, thanks for letting me know

    Also, Tobi...
    You might want to check the rules, because Naruto never summoned any of those toads other than Bunta, Shima summoned everyone.
    The rules say:

    Summon Rules:
    Summoners are limited to summoning only those (summons) that they've shown on-panel.

    This would even mean that he can't use Ma and Pa, since their only job was to sustain Sage Mode ( which was impossible to begin with ) and provide additional jutsu, Naruto can use Sage Mode without them and that means that Naruto can't use Frog Song or any jutsu involving those two.

    In short, I think Naruto is only allowed to summon Bunta, since he did it in part 1.
    Unless of course, you can provide scans in which Naruto DID summon Ma/Pa/Ken/Hiro...
  10. Floydical
    TobisPawn has asked if Naruto is allowed to summon Ma, Pa, Hiro and Ken to the battlefield. At this point in the debate, we cannot set any new restrictions or rules due to both debaters having already posted. All that I'll say on the matter is that debaters should only consider feats that have solid backing in the manga. Keep in mind that both your opponent and us judges will account for such things when reading and considering your posts. You may both proceed with this match how you see fit, but altering any of your previous posts at this time is not allowed due to this question being asked afterward.
  11. Floydical
    This debate will close on the 6th around the same time it was posted if no extension is requested.
  12. TobisPawn
    Hmmm...alright, I'll stick with only Bunta then. Just to be safe. I'll counter your posts:

    Kakashi can definitely avoid Naruto's attacks and continuously hide, but there's not much a point to that. Kakashi's stamina is definitely lower than Naruto's, and he'll just eventually tire out. And also, Naruto, using SM, can sense where Kakashi is hiding, and Bunta can attack accordingly, by stabbing the ground with his sword, where Kakashi is, either piercing him, or making Kakashi move away and waste more chakra. And Bunta can also moisten the ground with his water bullets, slowing Kakashi down and causing him to exert more chakra. Kakashi's also a Suiton user, but he's not as skilled as Bunta is in the area.

    Also, contrary to what you said, Kakashi wont be sneaking up on Naruto or any of the sort, as 1.) Naruto can sense where Kakashi is coming from, and react accordingly, 2.) Getting near Naruto would mean he'd be engaging a SM Naruto with better strength and reflexes than him (see above) in CQC, which is not good, and 3.) Bunta, with Naruto on his back, can jump up and scout the field.

    Also, you questioned Bunta's mobility in the forest, but he's seen to be very mobile even in forests, so that should be no issue. Kakashi should be worrying, though, as Naruto can have Bunta attack Kakashi while Naruto hides in the forest, tracks him via sensing, and ambushes him.
  13. TobisPawn
    You say that the 50m distance will hinder Naruto, but it'll hinder Kakashi more. Naruto's reflexes are top notch, and as I've pointed out, SM Naruto senses and reacts to attacks quicker than Kakashi those. Also, we have no feats of Kakashi using his 1st gate. He can, but we cant necessarily quantify how powerful he'd be. SM Naruto, on the other hand, with 50% or less of Naruto's regular chakra (a clone of a Naruto that's been fighting for days), can send Kakashi flying with the palm of his hand. And judging by the "!?" Kakashi exclaims, he cant react to Naruto too easily. You can say that he would never see an "attack" coming from an ally, but he'd be in the same situation, unable to react, if Bunta distracts while Naruto does an all-out surprise attack that can feasibly shatter Kakashi's jaw, considering a simple palm sent him flying.

    Kakashi can use Genjutsu, but Naruto's known for using Bunshin feints. In a case where Kakashi uses one, it can likely be a clone, similar to what Kakashi did against Itachi. That, or Bunta can break Naruto out. But if Kakashi does trap Naruto in one, Naruto always has Bunta to back him and stop Kakashi from finishing him off. Or Bunta can grab Naruto, jump up high where Kakashi can't reach, and shoot some Water Bullets at him, while Naruto breaks out. And I'd like to point out that Kakashi having Zabuza's sword will hinder him, because 1.) He'll have one less hand to do seals with and 2.) Bunta can easily overpower him in a sword fight, with Naruto backing up.
  14. ~Puppet Master~
    ~Puppet Master~
    First of all, about your argument that Bunta and Naruto would be able to pinpoint and attack Kakashi, please note that Kakashi can move out of attack range. Also, you claim that moist will prevent Kakashi from freely moving through the ground, but it is stated that earth is turned into sand so the user can dig through like a mole, using suiton in this situation won't really bother Kakashi's movements since the whole point of the technique is to easily move under the ground.

    And Naruto will certainly not be able to hide from Kakashi at all, Kakashi has two methods to constantly know Naruto's location, his Ninken and his extraordinary smell. And I've also come across something Kakashi could find very useful in this battle, they're called Makibishi and Kakashi could sabotage the entire battlefield with it, greatly limiting Naruto's movement and agility for the rest of the battle.

    I'll also be countering some of your arguments with possible strategies for Kakashi, since you seem to underestimate what Genjutsu can do for Kakashi in this battle, and how Naruto's weakness to it could be his downfall.
  15. ~Puppet Master~
    ~Puppet Master~
    This is how Kakashi could go about killing Naruto...

    Kakashi's genjutsu works on more than one target at once, which means he can put both Naruto and Bunta under genjutsu, and since Bunta hasn't shown us any means of dispelling genjutsu, we can assume it will keep him out of the fight for the time being. Kakashi can now follow his attack with Double Suicide Decapitation Tech to restrain Naruto, should he break out. At this point, all it takes is Silent Killing using the Kubikiribōchō to hit a vital point, killing Naruto and sending Bunta back to Myobokuzan.

    How Kakashi can take care of Bunta, possible scenario...

    Kakashi can quickly scatter the Makibishi across the battlefield and retreat behind a tree, where he will make a shadow clone which will go under the ground to the other side of Naruto and Bunta. The real Kakashi can then use Lightning Beast Running tech against Naruto whose movement is limited, intentionally miss and make it run to the other side where the shadow clone connects to it and creates a transmission in order to severely injure Bunta and send him back to Myobokuzan.

    And this was without any genjutsu involved, which would have made this scenario that much more plausible.
  16. TobisPawn
    Yes, Kakashi can use Hiding Like a Mole to evade for awhile, but he'll eventually be pinpointed by SM and uprooted. And if Kakashi decides to just play a waiting game, he'll definitely tire out before Naruto and Bunta. And if he decides to enter CQC with Naruto, he's done for, as Naruto has superior speed, strength (see how he casually palm'd Kakashi), sensing (see how he sensed Juubi's attack first), reflexes (see his fight with Raikage), and Frog Kata. So even if Kakashi seemingly evades an attack (which is hard to believe, considering we've seen Naruto display superior speed, sensing, and reflexes), he'll still be surprise-attacked. And if Kakashi evades even that, Bunta can be there to pierce him. And I see what you're saying, but I don't understand how Hiding Like a Mole will really achieve anything when Naruto can easily sense where he is, and uproot him with a casual Sage tech: Giant Rasengan.

    The thing is, Naruto doesn't need to hide from Kakashi. Kakashi needs to hide from him. And while Kakashi can smell Naruto out (though I don't see how that's helping), Naruto can sense where he is and react accordingly, with his superior sensing/precognition and speed/reflexes. Kakashi's outmatched in the overall area of hiding/sensing. And those tools will only serve as a hindrance to Kakashi alone, because Naruto can just jump up on Bunta and attack from above.
  17. TobisPawn
    Sorry for questioning, but can I see a scan where Kakashi's shown to Genjutsu two people at once? And while I'm under the impression that, by his battle with Pain, Naruto was capable of breaking out of Genjutsu at the level Kakashi uses, Gamabunta should definitely be able to. I'm pretty sure Bunta or Naruto can dispel it by taking in Natural Energy, or through Jiraiya's way. And again, Kakashi wont be restraining Naruto if he breaks out or his broken out, as Naruto's strength feats faaar outweigh Kakashi's. And you haven't said how Kakashi would deal with Gamabunta, who should definitely be able to break out. And with that said, sorry for questioning, but can I have some panels of some of Kakashi's usable Genjutsu?

    To counter your Bunta strategy: As said multiple times before, Naruto can sense much better and react much faster than Kakashi. If Kakashi hides behind a tree, Bunta shoots it down with water bullets (scans posted somewhere above), or jump up and scout him. That, or Naruto can sense where he is and throw an expanding FRS at an unsuspecting Kakashi. All the while, a clone of Naruto can be digging through the ground (see the scans of the Neji fight that I posted), sense where Kakashi is, and pop up and give him a nice round to the jaw. Bunta and Naruto will not be limited in anyway by those tools, as Bunta can jump and still fight, and Naruto can jump onto a tree, or use his sensing/FRS sniping/digging through the ground.

    Sorry for no scans in this post (@judges). Just that basically everything I'm saying has been posted somewhere above or in the previous page, so I don't feel the need to post them again. And ahh, looks like the debate closes in an hour. Good luck! :p
  18. Floydical
    I will allow ~Puppet Master~ 1 more post within the next 12 hours if he is able to. Other than that, this match is officially closed.
  19. ~Puppet Master~
    ~Puppet Master~
    I will keep clinging to Kakashi's genjutsu here, since it is the perfect counter to Naruto, and a good way to stay out of taijutsu range.
    Genjutsu is enough to buy Kakashi time, since his attacks are known to be really fast. And you asked for scans to confirm... Here they are, sorry for not providing them in my earlier posts.

    Here is Kakashi's first genjutsu, used against sakura ( a genjutsu type ) to create hallucinations.
    Here is Kakashi's second genjutsu, where he paralyzes two ANBU units using Genjutsu: Sharingan.
    I can't see Naruto escaping a paralyzing genjutsu by dispelling it.

    May this conclude our first match...
  20. Floydical
    This match is now closed.
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