Round 1 Pool 3 Part 2: Profontaine vs. PuppetMaster

  1. Floydical
    Gaara vs. Orochimaru (created by Uzumaki16)

    Profontaine: Orochimaru

    PuppetMaster: Gaara

    Restrictions: Orochimaru does not have access to Edo Tensei. No other notable restrictions.

    Knowledge: Neither combatant has any knowledge on their opponent.

    Starting Distance: 50 metres

    Location: Where Madara fought the Kage

    Intent: Kill

    To clarify some things from my postings, you are limited to 15 post total that will be counted for scoring. From your 16th post on, you will not get credit for anything you stated. Keep all responses to a maximum of 20 lines, if you notice your response is more than that after posting it, please edit it as soon as you notice. If you have any posts at the end of the debate with more than 20 lines, you will get a DQ. This obviously does not count images you post or links you post to show evidence from the manga, only your lines of text. If you apply titles of some sort to clarify sections of your post this will not be counted either, again, only lines of text count. Quoting your opponent also does not count among your line limit. If you have any specific questions about the match, message me or Uzumaki and we will clarify it in this thread. Again, do not post in this thread until you are posting an argument, any and all posts you make count toward the 15 total.

    Either one of you can post first. Begin!
  2. Prefontaine
    Gaara's Ultimate Defense is not invincible. As we have seen Gaara has seriously fallen twice: once to Deidara through his C3 and C1 technique and once to Madara from being overwhelmed by his Susanoo Clones. Thus we can see that through various means, Gaara can be beaten in a fight.

    Orochimaru is an opponent who can do just that, beat Gaara. Orochimaru is said to be a once in a generation talent, with tremendous battle experience, wisdom and ability. He is one of the three Sannin.

    Likewise Orochimaru has only been seen to be defeated two and a half times, if you can even call it that: Once by Hiruzen through the Dead Demon Consuming Seal, by Sasuke in an extremely weakened state, and another time by Itachi through the Totsuka Sword. Gaara Doesn't know the DDCS or have the Totsuka Sword. And Orochimaru wasn't even fully defeated by Hiruzen and has come back from being sealed by Itachi. These speak incredibly to Orochimaru's invincibility.

    I think a major reason why Orochimaru would win in a fight against Gaara is because Gaara simply cannot defeat him. Any physical damage that Gaara might be able to land on him, Orochimaru can use Body Shedding Technique to heal himself from any attack. Besides that he has Rashomon and Triple Rashomon to protect him from any large attacks (tailed beast ball tier defense). He also has incredible speed to dodge most attacks and close distances to attack himself.

    Orochimaru will also be able to overwhelm Gaara with has numerous and massive and powerful snake summons. Manda (which he would summon manda II who is bigger faster and stronger) and another large snake and this and here and here and even these. I think that these summons are two big and too strong and too overwhelming in helping Orochimaru defeat Gaara.

    So I guess I'll end my opening here.
  3. Floydical
    This match will be extended to the 10th at 11pm eastern.
  4. ~Puppet Master~
    ~Puppet Master~
    [ I'm sorry for the late post, I've been very busy at school this week and forgot about my match ]

    Gaara's ultimate defense is not invincible, indeed, but every character has a weakness after all. You say that Orochimaru can defeat Gaara because he is highly talented and one of the Sannin, but a lot more important factors apply in a battle.

    While it is true that Orochimaru is very agile and durable, he is at a great disadvantage here. The battlefield is fully covered with sand, and Orochimaru has never been able to fly. Gaara is able to manipulate the battlefield freely, and even trap Orochimaru under the ground, killing him through the sheer pressure. [1] [2]

    You say that Gaara cannot hurt Orochimaru because of his body shedding, but this is not true. Mainly because it's a very bad matchup for Orochimaru. Orochimaru can be completely covered and sandwiched by this jutsu, he cannot shed his body, he can barely move.

    Also, you mentioned Manda II, but this was something created by Kabuto and only available to Kabuto. This means that Orochimaru cannot summon Manda II, whether the original Manda is alive or not, is up to the judges. Yet again, with such a huge supply of sand, Gaara could restrain these summons pretty well, also think of the fact that summons take alot of chakra. Also note that Gaara can fly and move out of attack range, this goes for pretty much any of Orochimaru's attacks.
  5. ~Puppet Master~
    ~Puppet Master~
    Orochimaru is outmatched in attack power, his best bet is his Eight-headed Serpent tech, which Gaara can also move out of range of. While Orochimaru is indeed fast, Gaara has his mother's will to protect him, sand can be controlled to a very precise extend, which allows Gaara to counter Orochimaru's attacks effectively.

    This is one of the worst matchups for Orochimaru and he can not win this. His weaknesses are completely exposed in this battle, a rigged battlefield, a flying opponent with complete control of the battle... Since Edo Tensei is restricted, Orochimaru has no access to his two hokages, which was his main form of attack during his battle with Sarutobi. The only time we've ever seen Orochimaru go all-out was against 4-tailed Naruto, and he attacks in numbers, not in power.

    The only real threat to Gaara here is the Kusanagi sword, but this is a melee attack which requires Orochimaru to get close, and that is one of the things you must not do against Gaara. All attacks are completely useless against the fifth Kazekage.


    That concludes my opening posts...
  6. Prefontaine
    As to Manda II being able to be summoned, Manda II is a snake summon, and thus because of the contract that Orochimaru made with the snakes, he can summon him. The nature of this summoning contract is like this. All that is required is the blood of the contractor and chakra and you can summon any from the contract you signed.

    Along with that, even the medium sized snakes are HUGE, where as Orochimaru is a speck on Manda and his eight branches technique is even bigger than that! The Imperial Funeral hasn't even been shown to be effective in battle. He could merge with the terrain to make himself untouchable. I would be more worried about Gaara being able to try and attack or get out of the way of him than the other way around. Yes, the field might be full of sand but I think it's manageable. Orochimaru and his attacks are just too large, even for Gaara's sand to fully cover and crush.

    I think it has been overlooked that we have never seen Orochimaru be in a fair fight, he has always been ill due to his fight with the Third, but now he has his full body and soul back, and with nothing hindering him, he can actually fight at 100%.

    Orochimaru could use Body Freeze to stop Gaara in his tracks and then pierce him with Kusanagi. Gaara's sand has been shown to be pierced here and here. The Sword of Kusanagi could pierce it similarly, like this, being a sword strong enough to withstand a diamond hard staff that can extend across the 50m with ease. Having done that, Orochimaru can use the Five Element seal to cut off Gaara's chakra, rendering his techniques useless. He would even go unconscious for a while. Now, his mother will still be protecting him through the shield of sand but the sheer force of his techniques would crush both the sand and Gaara. Orochimaru could also extend any part of his body like this where he could immobilize and poison Gaara, and while in this weakened state, could absorb his chakra even further. And we all know that when your Chakra hits zero, you lose.
  7. Prefontaine
    Simply put, Orochimaru is unkillable, because until now, he hasn't even entered his true form yet, and nothing has been shown that can kill him in the manga. He has only been immobilized by Sasuke's genjutsu (who is one of the most powerful and most important characters in the series), which Gaara doesn't have. If this ends up becoming a battle of attrition, Gaara loses outright.
  8. Floydical
    Puppet is allowed the last post here, so if its okay with both debaters, this match will end after Puppet's next post.
  9. ~Puppet Master~
    ~Puppet Master~
    Still I think Manda may not be summoned, as it is a cloned created by Kabuto. That means that he has no affiliation with the snake contract. Therefore, Orochimaru can not summon him.

    And about Orochimaru merging with the terrain, he would be at a great disadvantage here, since it's an all-sand area. Gaara would still be able to manipulate the sand Orochimaru is in, and it would make Orochimaru even more vulnerable. Matter can not be destroyed, and as it says on Naruto Wiki, Orochimaru merges with the surface, which changes the properties of his body to that of the sand, making him an even easier target.

    And about the Imperial Funeral, it has been pretty effective in restraining the opponent. Only the Second Mizukage could destroy it using Jouki Boy[1][2], Orochimaru does not possess such destructive power. You also say that Orochimaru can restrain Gaara with his Body Freeze tech, and then pierce him with Kusanagi. But Gaara is a ranged fighter, and this could form a problem for Orochimaru in that scenario.

    My point being: Orochimaru is at such a disadvantage at this point, that Gaara could effectively dispose of him within seconds. After all, having your entire body crushed also prevents him from using the Body Shedding tech. Even if he would return from someone else's Curse Mark, it would still count as a win for Gaara.

    May this end the debate -->
  10. Floydical
    I think you both did a good job defending the aspects of your combatant. Prefontaine, I feel you did a good job pointing out Oro's level of survivability, but I think you over-estimate him a bit. Just because we have only seen him defeated by very abnormal means does not mean he can't be defeated by more traditional means. Puppet Master, I feel that you did a good job pointing out weaknesses that you felt Oro had in addition to taking into account the environment.

    Prefontaine, I found your link to the Body Freeze tech to be very interesting. I never considered that as being part of Oro's repertoire but I think you convinced me he has it given that scenario. Puppet Master, I feel that you made some good counters at the end regarding Body Freeze and Body Shedding technique, again showing a good use of the terrain.

    When it comes to the Manda II debate, I have to side with Puppet Master. The specifications for summoning are those that have been shown to be summoned by the combatant. Since Oro has never summoned Manda II himself, he is not among his repertoire. Even though Oro needed help summoning regular Manda, it was still his summon so he counts, but Manda II belongs to only Kabuto based on the manga, not Oro.

    Prefontaine, I think you made a very good push in your last posts, coming up with some very good strategies for winning the match. Puppet Master, I feel that your comments about restraining Oro were very well grounded in the manga and I believe that it is very possible that Oro could be trapped and totally contained. While I don't trust you completely that he can easily contain his larger snake summons as well, I do feel that you took good advantage of Gaara's ability to fly.

    Ultimately, I feel that Puppet Master's arguments won him the day. You did a good job coming up with ways to retrain Oro and avoid his summons by flying if attempting to restrain them failed. You also did a very good job countering one of Prefontaine's main attacks by using his range attack to counter Oro when he came in close after using Body Freeze. Prefontaine, like I said before, I think you made a very good come-back at the end, but I ultimately feel you were outweighed because I feel Puppet Master did a better job overall convincing me that his combatant had a greater chance of winning than I originally imagined. Good debate from both of you.
  11. Prefontaine
    Thank you, Floydical for the judging and great input. I'm not here to argue your decision, but I do want to wonder, hasn't it been made clear that a summoning contract is with the species that you summon, not individual summons, i.e. Jiraiya and Naruto with toad summons? They signed a contract with the toads so that, depending on their amount of chakra they put into the summon, they can someone anyone they want? It's not really a question of individuals, or else their would have to be a different blood contract for each and every summon, Gambunta, Ma, Pa, etc.
  12. Floydical
    Here's a link to the rules:

    I know its buried in the tournament section at this point, but it is an essential set of rules that we are all accustomed too. Summonings, along with other techs unless otherwise clarified, can only be used that have been shown ON PANEL. So Oro cannot summon Manda II because he has never been shown summoning it. Kind of like how Naruto has never summoned Hiro or Ken on panel, only Bunta. Only Ma had been shown summoning Hiro or Ken, other than Jiraiya. Manda I is within Oro's repertoire because he did so in part 1, though it was with Kabuto's help. But again, he was never shown on panel summoning Manda II, so its not part of his arsenal.
  13. ~Puppet Master~
    ~Puppet Master~
    The reason I thought Orochimaru couldn't summon Manda II was because Kabuto created it, after his death.
    Which gives us reason to believe that Orochimaru doesn't even know of Manda II's existence.
  14. Owarij
    Similar to what Floydical stated, both had great arguments , and Orochimaru's Kanashibari no Jutsu is a very underrated technique in his disposal that many seem to not remember.. it was nice to see it used in a debate.

    As for the manda 2 issue you guys had, I'd have to side with Puppet Master there, simply because manda 2 was Kabuto's sole creation, and Oro doesn't have a summoning contract with it , regardless of it being a snake summoning... As for the argument that he can't summon it because he has no knowledge of it, I believe that incorrect, due to him taking all of Kabuto's memories , he would have gained knowledge of the enhanced snake..

    I believe puppet master did a really good job with his arguments especially utilizing Gaara's abilty to enter an aerial state in the desert area.. that alone made it very hard coutner as Orochimaru really only has a few on panel jutsu , considering his arms were sealed for the majority of the manga..

    Puppet master takes this one for me
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