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    Negative Knight's Avatar

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    (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Kakuzu of the Earth Grudge Fear vs Kisame of the Bloody Mist

    After a lengthy retirement from my VS Threads, I’ve finally decided to get back to what I do best and start making the threads you all know and love but with a much better layout, style and efficiency.

    This is a thread highlighting the strength of Kakuzu, his overlooked abilities and essentially it has no bias but a purpose, and is therefore showing why either side could win. Simply you just ignore the title as I wrote it that way for people to recognize it was one of my threads, however the thread will concentrate more on the underdog in this battle to explain why this is a fair match up.

    The Earth Grudge Monster

    Kakuzu's Abilities

    Large Scale Wind Release Techniques
    Kakuzu is able to use four of the five basic elements which are wind, fire, lightning and earth. His Wind Release was on such a scale that he was able to devastate the entireity of the terrain with as little as one blast. Furthermore it gives him the advantage over lightning release users whilst also being able to strengthen his powerful fire release techniques which required Naruto's Wind Release Rasengan infused with Yamato's Water Release to extinguish it.

    How Kakuzu could use this ability against Kisame: Wind's natural neutrality with Water means this could be used as a method to cancel out large waves of water summoned by Kisame by dissipating the force so much they lose all momentum and collapse.

    Pseudo Immortality
    Kakuzu uses the kinjutsu to integrate other people's hearts into his own body after killing his opponents. His body allows him to include up to 4 extra hearts into his own body meaning he has a overall number of 5. In order to kill Kakuzu all 5 hearts must stopping beating which makes him in a way immortal. The hearts can also take on bodies of their own in the shape of black creatures which each can utilize the element their mask has.

    Utilizing his natural advantage of being able to have a physical presence in 5 places at once means he could be engaging Kisame directly while attacking from Kisame's blind spots with his masks to strike lethal hits or even split his attention enough to separate Kisame from his sword. The masks natural ability of flight grant them virtual immunity to his entire arsenal and also hinder Kisame in the sense that he would have to remain mobile to prevent creating openings for Kakuzu's masks to strike.

    Large Scale Fire Release Techniques
    Kakuzu is also able to Fire Release on an even higher scale than his Wind Release when he infuses both of them to create a mass of flames requiring both powerful wind and water release techniques. This also gives him the elemental advantage against water release users.

    How Kakuzu could use this ability against Kisame: Samehada has shown itself to struggle with absorbing fire based Ninjutsu due to its intense heats, even cringing when attempting to absorb Itachi's Fire ball which pales in comparison to the scale of Kakuzu's combined Wind and Fire Release Ninjutsu. Due to Samehada's displayed chakra absorption limit, and its difficultly to handle even lower ranked Katon Ninjtsu, it could be argued that samehada wouldn't abosrb the attack completely, allowing some of it to land on both Kisame and Samehada.

    Kakuzu's Wind and Fire Masking Merging into one body

    Earth Release: Iron Skin Hardening (Earth Spear)
    Kakuzu flows chakra through all parts of their body causing him to become darker in colour which in turn increases his defensive power to its utmost limits by making the skin as hard as diamond. Furthermore, the destructive power of physical attacks is increased, making this a great all-purpose technique.

    Kakuzu's Doton Domu Armour Elemental Strengths and Weaknesses

    Immunity to Wind Techniques due them gusts of wind unable to cut through diamond, due to it being the hardest substance on the planet.

    Immunity to Water Techniques, his body manages to dissipate the force of it, rendering it effectively useless, not to mention the natural elemental advantage earth has over water.

    Resistant to Fire Techniques, his body is hardened to the extent of diamond and he was shown to be hit with a explosive kunai directly without being hurt in anyway, his body is much more resistant to damage than most other shinobi.

    Resistant to Earth Techniques as his body is hardened to the extend of diamond, meaning he would take much less damage than a person's ordinary body being hit.

    Severe Weakness to Lightning Techniques: This was proven when Kakashi told Kakuzu his Earth defense was naturally weak to lightning and was paralyzed when hit by hit.

    This technique would be useful against hard hitting water techniques (high amount of force) from Kisame as well as give Kakuzu the upper hand in close combat, allowing him to tanks several hits without pain or flinching, implying that he could have a active defense whilst simultaneously attacking.

    Earth Grudge Fear Transformation
    This technique is a secret kinjutsu of Takigakure which transforms the user's body into something similar to that of a rag-doll's, which is held together by hundreds of thick black threads. Kakuzu was able to manipulate these threads for many purposes. He was capable of sewing up any injuries that he or others might suffer, most commonly by reattaching body parts.

    How Kakuzu could use this ability against Kisame: This would be Kakuzu’s Trump card against Kisame growing a massive amount of threads he would be able to attack them both simultaneously in Taijutsu while also merging his masks into his body to allow them to use large scale combined ninjutsu attacks e.g. Fire + Wind while also protecting them by keeping them close to him.

    Powerful Lightning Release Techniques
    Kakuzu is also able to lightning release with us assuming on the same scale as both his fire and wind release techniques.

    This would be Kakuzu’s main offensive against Kisame’s water related techniques e.g. Water Prison, and effectively could force a double suicide or for him to force Kisame to release the technique. Kisame’s Samehada fusion mode would also become a burden rather than a trump card due to being reliant on being inside a body of water which would inevitably become a electrocution chamber with Kakuzu’s Large Scale Lightning Techniques.

    The Scourge of the Bloody Mist

    Kisame's Abilities

    Large Scale Water Release Techniques
    Kisame was almost unparalled in magnitude when it came to Water Release techniques except by a select few including Tobirama. He was shown at many instances to summon large bodies of water using his chakra alone because of his massive chakra reserves. This allowed him to excute Water Release techniques that would overwhelm the opponent due to the sheer magnitude of his techniques and alter the entire battlefiled, warping the very terrain in his favour as his Samehada Fusion Mode has been shown to move extremely fast whilst submerged in water.

    This would act as an ideal counter to Kakuzu's Fire and Lightning Ninjutsu respectively, with Water having the natural elemental advantage over Fire along with Lightning making the waves more lethal due to the di-charged nature of water allowing it to conduct electricity as a complete circuit.

    Charka Absorption Capabilities
    Kisame also showed a unique trait of sucking out chakra out of his opponents using his sword Samehada. He shared a symbiotic relationship with his sword, giving it chakra in exchange for sucking out chakra out his opponent on contact and giving it to him allowing him to become theoretically infinitely strong and match his strength to his opponent even if they have higher chakra reserves.

    How Kakuzu could use this ability against Kisame: This would greatly aid Kisame in this fight allowing him to absorb almost all of Kakuzu's Ninjutsu based arsenal individually. Its also a method used by Kisame to gradually wear down his opponent and turn the fight into a fight of stamina, aiming to exhausting the opponent whilst replenishing his own strength resulting in a inevitable win.

    Highly Skilled in Kenjutsu
    Kisame before defecting from his village became known as one of the seven Ninja Swords men. This was an elite group of swordsmen who were argubably the most gifted users of Kenjutsu in the entire Narutoverse. Kisame was highly skilled in Kenjutsu able to defeat opponents without the use of ninjutsu giving him the ability to conserve his chakra levels whlist simultaneously exhausting the opponent with the use of Samehada's special trait.

    Kakuzu was highly skilled in Taijutsu meaning he would be able to rival him in ordinary close combat situations while draining him of his charka to eventually gain the upper hand as his level of performance drops to a unsatisfactory level.

    Infinite Stamina and Cellular Regeneration Capabilities
    In Kisame's fight against Killer Bee after being hit by a Full Power Eight Tails v2 Lariat, Kisame converted the absorbed chakra into cellular regeneration to recover from a move so devastating it seemed lethal enough to kill him through blood loss alone. However without Samehada he doesn't possess this ability and its reliant on how much chakra Samehada has absorbed before hand.

    Kisame being hit with a Lethal Lariat and recovering with the use of Samehada

    How Kakuzu could use this ability against Kisame: Kisame's regeneration is a key factor in determining whether or not he stands a chance against Kakuzu, due to the lethality of his opponent's fighting style. Kakuzu mainly utilizes methods which would completely eradicate, singe, tear up or into his opponents but if Kisame can absorb a sufficient amount from his Ninjutsu based attacks whether or not Samehada can absorb them completely, he could recover instantly afterwards by converting the stolen chakra into his own stamina.

    Extremely High Chakra Reserves
    Kisame has also shown to have chakra levels so high it can only be paralleled by that of a Tailed Beast giving rise to his nickname of "The Tailless Tailed Beast". Combined with Samehada's ability to absorb chakra, Kisame is not prone to fatigue and rarely gets tired as demonstrated when he fought the Four Tails Jinchuuriki but only complaining to be a "bit tired".

    This would be useful in a battle of attrition managing to outlast Kakuzu due to the chakra consuming nature of his jutsu without feeling any forms of fatigue himself.

    Samehada Fusion Mode
    Kisame is also able to expand on his shark like appearance by fusing with his sword Samehada to become half-man, half-shark. He completely merges with Samehada which doing so causes him to grow fins and webbed hands that allow him to move through water with considerable ease. Kisame also receives some of Samehada's abilities while in this form, such as being able to extend spikes from his body for offense, and absorbing chakra when others come into direct contact with him, as well as the ability to track chakra.

    How Kakuzu could use this ability against Kisame: This would act as both his trump card and counter to Kakuzu’s Earth Grudge Fear transformation with both users being able to undergo similar transformations and achieve high magnitude elemental attacks in their respective element(s). Also being underwater, Kakuzu could only counter his Water Dome through sacrificing at least one heart in the process.

    Why Kakuzu can overcome Kisame in a 1 vs 1 Battle ?

    -Versatility of Earth Grudge Fear Transformations v1 and v2

    These insanely powerful dark thread transformations are often overlooked when considering Kakuzu’s moveset. To different degrees of effectiveness respectively, they grant him superiority in close combat which Kakuzu could use to his own advantage by:

    -Overwhelming Kisame with a sheer amount of assaults from his threads
    -A restraint mechanism which could be combed with powerful ninjutsu projectiles from his masks
    -A pseudo form of flight by swinging from one part of the terrain to another
    -Use them as prosthetic flexible limbs to hold off Kisame's own attacks whilst simultaneously attacking himself

    Kakuzu's Earth Grudge Transformation v2

    Kakuzu was shown to use his v2 (Long range) transformation to perch himself on higher parts of the terrain, which could be used as a escape mechanism from Kisame’s Water Dome technique or even as shielding himself from large waves of water.

    Kakashi also commented on the threads being far too fast to escape from when he was initially caught which could potentially mean it could act in a similar way to Mifune’s laido technique, granted to a much lesser extent, to prevent Kisame from forming handseals and using his larger scale ninjutsu attacks.

    When merged with his masks, Kakuzu has shown that they retain the ability to act on his command, suggesting that he could engage Kisame in Taijutsu whilst using high scale ninjutsu which would be impossible for Samehada to absorb completely. I’ll return to this specific point later on.

    Kakuzu's Dark Threads Acting like extra Limbs for combat

    Kisame’s reliance on Samehada could be exploited as a severe weakness by Kakuzu, his transformation would enable him to restrain the sword and succeed in either landing a direct hit on Kisame or separating him from his sword which he could seize as a opportunity to land a fatal katon/fuuton infused blast which Kisame wouldn’t be able to regenerate from due to his separation from his sword.

    On a final note, Kakuzu has shown time and time again the lethal purposes his dark threads could be used for, primarily through choking his opponents to death on repeated occasions, and ripping through their bodies with this threads, deep enough so he could integrate their heart into his own system instantaneously. This could possibly suggest an alternative use of Kakuzu's threads to make lethal hits on Kisame, amputate whole limbs or even kill Samehada.

    -Superiority in Ninjutsu and Infinite Battle Tactics

    Kakuzu's multiple element affinities granted to him due to his secret Kinjutsu means he has the undoubted elemental advantage in this fight, along with an insane level of versatility, allowing him to counter a large portions of Kisame's arsenal solely based on this factor.

    Kakuzu's Earth Release: Earth Spear would be an essential counter against Kisame's Taijutsu and raw strength enabling him to tank deadly hits as well as becoming virtually immune to most of his water based ninjutsu, with a much higher resistance to even the most powerful of water techniques due to his armour dissipating the force of the waves. With it, a large portion of Kisame's Ninjutsu becomes useless, acting as nothing but a chakra taxing mechanism.

    This would act in an effective way due to Earth being superior to Water in terms of Elemental Advantage

    Kakuzu using Doton Domu on his body to prevent himself from taking any damage

    Kakuzu also showed himself to be extremely capable in Wind Release, with as little as one blast devastating an immense part of the terrain. Due to the nature of winds governing the direction and strength of waves, this could be used against Kisame's higher scale Water Ninjutsu to severely decrease the momentum of the waves or dissipate them enough so both of the techniques cancel out. In terms of magnitude, it seems to match Kisame's Exploding Water Colliding Wave so respectively due to these Water and Wind's elemental neutrality, should result in them cancelling out.

    Kakuzu using Wind Release: Pressure Damage on an immense scale

    His Lightning Release would also grant him the added ability of an electrocution alternative mainly when Kisame is covered in water through a defensive Jutsu or even a double suicide method when Kisame activates his Water Dome, after this Kakuzu could follow up on this by reviving himself.

    -Strategic use of Pseudo Immortality and Masks

    Whether we'd like to admit it or not, in this battle Kisame must kill Kakuzu a minimum of 5 times to win this battle. Contrary to popular belief, Kakuzu doesn't lose hearts as easily as they initially think, this mindset was instilled due to Danzo's wasteful nature in the use of his Izagani.

    After carefully re-observing the Kakuzu fight i noticed each heart he lost was through a matter of circumstance rather than an naturally wasteful nature. His first heart was lost through Kakashi's sneak attack fighting style, where Kakuzu wasn't even expecting a assault like that, nor could he detect his presence. Kisame's fighting style is much more power over speed, and doesn't rely on the element of surprise like Kakashi.

    His second heart, the one situated in his body (arguably the hardest to kill) was done through a indirect combination of Kakashi obtaining Kakuzu's own blood and Shikamaru following up on this by ensuring Hidan used this same blood for his Jashin Ritual, thus killing another one of Kakuzu's hearts without use of their own efforts.

    Kakuzu saying it was a noteworthy rarity of losing more than one heart in a fight

    Kakuzu's 3rd Heart was destroyed due to facing far too many opponents whilst grounded on the floor as it had to reintegrate into Kakuzu's body, so the lack of support for that individual heart meant it became Super Sized Chouji vs Lightning Mask, a battle Chouji would inevitably win. Kakuzu's 4th and 5th hearts were also destroyed through the efforts of Naruto by getting hit with Rasenshuriken, an attack which destroys the opponent on a molecular level.

    From this, we can see that Kakuzu only lost hearts through efforts of teamwork and combined tactics rather than sacrifcing them needlessly, in a 1 vs 1 against Kisame he would be able to use them individually whilst supporting them with his own efforts by engaging Kisame directly to prevent him from having the opportunity to deal any damage to them. Even then Kakuzu claimed that in his countless years of combat, its been "ages" since he went through 2 hearts in the same fight.

    Strategic use of his hearts could also allow Kakuzu to counter many of Kisame's "uncounterable" jutsu such as Suiton Daikodan (Great Shark Water Bullet) and Samehada Fusion + Water Dome.

    How Kakuzu counters Kisame's Water Dome Prison: His Kisame's dome has proven itself to be a troublesome and almost impossible jutsu for most shinobi to counter effectively. However it has shown one slight but exploitable weakness which Kakuzu's arsenal meets the criteria for. His ability to split into 5 seperate bodies, with each of his hearts manifesting their own body which are capable of flight. Through the use of this ability alone, they would be out of the range of the prison. Even then, if they were caught they could travel in separate directions, with Kisame undoubtedly going after Kakuzu. Once the other hearts escape the prison and Kakuzu "dies" due to a deprivation of oxygen, the hearts have shown the ability to reintegrate back into his body and revive him after he's dead.

    Killer Bee's tactic to exploit a key weakness in Kisame's Water Prison + Samehada Fusion Mode

    How Kakuzu counters Kisame's Great Shark Water Bullet: Kisame's attack is a guided projectile which he maintains through manually controlling it towards the target. Kakuzu could momentarily defend with a high scale elemental blast and then proceed to hit Kisame with one of his other masks without the fear of Samehada absorbing it.

    Even then, Kakuzu could defend against it with a stall tactic with one of his hearts, and proceed to either kill Samehada who is unattended or attack Kisame while he is immobile.

    -Sheer Scale of Ninjutsu Overwhelms Samehada’s Charka Absorption Capabilities

    Samehada's chakra absorption abilites are anything but limitless, in the fight against Killer Bee it was physically unable to absorb his entire V2 Transformation, with the remaining attack becoming resultant damage. Kisame was only able to recover from this resulting damage by grasping Samehada through his own efforts, if the injury was far too severe for Samehada to fully recover, then he would be crippled for the remainder of the fight.

    Kisame claiming he's unable to absorb Killer Bee's v2 Cloak fully

    Kakuzu can further take advantage of this due to Samehada's natrual weakness in absorbing Katon techniques. When faced against Itachi's Great Fire ball, Samehada struggled to absorb the entire technique, despite it being a relatively basic rank tech. Considering both Samehada's upper limit on how much chakra it can absorb from an attack and its difficulty against Fire Release Techniques, Kakuzu's Wind and Fire Infused Blasts become the perfect counter due to it being on such a magnitude its impossible to absorb fully and the intensity of the wind infused flames.

    Samehada Struggling to absorb Itachi's Katon Technique

    The result would be, both Kisame and Samehada each receiving extremely severe burns from the flames remaining after Samehada's efforts to absorb the complete attack. The damage received could very well be enough to kill Samehada or prevent Kisame from recovering fully, allowing Kakuzu to take advantage of a permanently damaged opponent.

    Who do you think would win this battle, Kisame or Kakuzu and why ? Let the Debates Begin.

    Last edited by Negative Knight; 11-03-2012 at 11:35 AM.

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