Re: Native American Israelites
Oh, I can imagine quite a bit. I am after all a polytheist & a pantheist. However I also understand that there are certain things that we can know. History is quite verifiable up to a point through archeology & linguistics.
Originally Posted by YowYan
Alright, since your making the positive statement about history could you please back it up? What source[s] do you have that the Phoenicians & the Israelites were the same people?
Originally Posted by Shinobi Train
I believe you read the Bible — no? Well, in 2 Chronicles 2:14 we can see that the topic is clearly a Phoenician man by the name of Hiram, who is form Tyre. Eventually we see in 1 Kings that Jezebel is from Tyre and that Elijah, in an attempt to reform, conveys that there should be no more foreign wives taken by the kings of Israel in reference to Jezebel.
It appears as if they were not the same people. King Ahab was king of ten tribes but not the Phoenicians. I realize that the Bible is not the most reliable source yet it can't be denied that it is at least a collaborative source.
Oh yes, I have seen the LLDS plenty of times. As I said before I was raised Mormon and they are no strangers to propagating hoaxes.
A lot of historians are just completely baffled by who the Phoenicians were since they seemed to come out of nowhere and left hardly any trace. They were a sea empire for the most part, and very cunning.
They knew that if the rest of Europe discovered the other continents then they'd try to fight for it, so to keep that from happening they spread a rumor about sea monsters lurking in the deep oceans not that far from the coast. Why do you think people of those times stuck so close to the land back then? I must admit that it's very clever to prey on people's lack of education, I enjoy doing it myself at times.
Now, the part that really sells all of this is something known as the Los Lunas stone.
Let's have a show of hands to see if anyone knows what language that is...anybody? No one knows? Darn, no one cares about education these days...>.> It's Paleo (ancient) Hebrew. Yes, the same language that the Creator wrote the Ten Commandments in. There's also something else that's special about this stone...it bears the true name of the Creator. Yep, you heard me, that one. Many like to claim that the LLS is a hoax...but that's sad because people have only recently actually figured out what that language even is.
What we know about the LLDS is that it was "discovered" by a professor of Archeology at the University of New Mexico named Frank Hibben in 1933, who claims the discovery was made by another who led him too it — who’s name is completely unmentioned, surprise, surprise — in 1880CE. Essentually this is an unverifiable claim. We have no way of verifying it's existence back then. Can we even trust Hibben?
During his career professor Hibben had fabricated, in some cases completely, information about pre-Clovis sights to fit his own model of pre-Clovis migration patterns. Namely:
† The Mystery of Sandia Cave, New Yorker, 71(16):66-83.
† A Chronological Problem Presented by Sandia Cave, New Mexico. American Antiquity, 1940a 5(3):200-201.
The other strange thing about Hibben is this supposed discovery date of 1933 for the LLDS. This is due to the fact that this was the same year that he graduated from Princeton University. Strange that he would, fresh out of a Bachelors program of Archaeology, haphazardly find an unknown individual in NM — who should forever be unnamed — to lead him to the very sight of a stone carving that would — if verified — turn the entire field of know world history on it's head.
It just goes on like this ...
When was the abjad writing system of Paleo-Hebrew used by the Israelites? Around and in-between the 10th to 5th centuries BCE until the Israelites adopted the Aramaic alphabet as their writing system for use with Hebrew. This means that there would have been a 500 year window for the creation of the carving. This isn’t the issue, the issue is the time period at which this would have had to have taken place. Namely the aforementioned centuries. All we have to do is look to see what the people who had been living in the Americas since at least 15,000BCE were doing at the time. After you do this it becomes clear that there is no way that these imaginary Phoenician-Israelites could have come here over a 500 year period and not made more of a mark on the pre-existing peoples living in North or South America.
Again, notice that the writing system of Paleo-Hebrew is abjad, which means that each symbol always or usually stands for a consonant, leaving the reader to supply the appropriate vowel from memory. This makes the language of that time period nearly impossible to reconstruct. So is the writing on the LLDS an accurate portrayal of Hebrew during the 10th - 5th centuries BCE? No one could tell you. It’s literally impossible to know. Remember that next when you read claims about what the text on the LLDS says.
This is the sort of thing that you will always run in to when critiquing claims of this Phoenician-Israelites-Native American ilk.
First and for most, there are plenty of people who would care to see this topic, and all of it’s false claims to evidence, elevated to the perspective of truth before the public eye. Why? Because it would validate — to some extent — Mormonism along with a lot of other Christian related beliefs & fabricated histories. Glenn Beck any one? Beck has said much of what you are saying here on National television. And he’s a Mormon who, like most Mormons, live in a bubble of ignorance and American Folk lore coming strait out of the 1800’s.
There's lots of other overwhelming evidents, but I'd kinda' have to dig it all back up because it's sorta' buried a little and scattered about. No one cares about this topic anymore because there's no dispute about it, you can't argue with truth so no one even talks about it much these days. Or I guess not among the Natsarim at least, obviously schools aren't there to educate people.
If you must know more, here's a great article on it: http://www.fossilizedcustoms.com/tribes.html
If that's not enough, I'll see if I can find the rest of the stuff on this topic.
I went to the link but I didn’t see much in the way of evidence. Mostly supposition based on what ifs. Not surprised.
I only have one thing to say to this —
Originally Posted by Shinobi Train