Re: Chiyo vs Zabuza
Again that is a weak argument. You showed Kakashi reacting to Zabuza's attacks, however Kakashi had a 3 tomoe Sharingan! Kakashi wouldn't even be able to react to Zabuza without his Sharingan and I know this by Kakashi saying before their fight, "If he is our opponent, I'm going to need this (pulls out Sharingan). So Darui, without any enhanced sensing abilities, probably won't die from Zabuza's first attack, but he is going to be greatly injured by a vital spot (Zabuza aims for 8 of them) because of Zabuza's giant sword, so Darui will not be able to jump away freely like he's fine and then be able to use a move to kill Zabuza. There's absolutely no way and if we go by what your saying, about Darui just getting injured but being fine and able to attack again, Darui would just be injured by a Water Clone and then kill the clone, tricking him then leaving Zabuza to finish him off when he's already injured. Seriously why do you think Zabuza was so feared as the Demon of the Hidden Mist? Even Guy was asking, "how do we fight an enemy that we can't see and hear", being as fast as he is, he was even doubting about what he can do and was confused on what to do, even having better and faster reflexes than Darui.
That wasn't, quite, what I was saying. I was saying Darui is fast enough to SURVIVE Zabuza's assault without immediately
mortal wounds (are YOU saying that ANY attack Zabuza makes from within the mist INSTANTLY kills him?) and that as Darui is still alive, he can counterattack. And Darui's counters are lethal enough that if they land (as they tend to do) they end the match.
Here're some scans of Kakashi blocking Zabuza's attacks without seeing ANYTHING (or at least very little beyond his own nose):
About the Water Dragon, I was saying that it's not soundless (obviously
) and thus not SUCH a good idea inside the mist. It's dodgeable, blockable. Why do you think Zabuza waited to use it 'till he disengaged his mist?
Oh and Kakashi's eyes were still open, mist doesn't blind you if it's very close, which is how Kakashi hit and blocked away all of the Shuriken thrown at him, so again, invalid argument.
Zabuza used Water Dragon at the end, not because the mist was gone, but because Zabuza already planned to catch Kakashi in the Water Prison so the Water Dragon Jutsu wasn't needed.
Everybody you named already has at least a 4/5 for speed in the db, and at least a 4/5 for taijutsu, so with their other feats of course they could keep up. The majority you named were Akatsuki, Hokage's and legendary ninja, so if you're trying to show me I overrate it when you're listing some of the strongest ninja of fall time, that's just stupid. And it doesn't matter if Darui falls in that category, yea of course Darui would be able to keep up with Kakashi, but that's when he can see him, the mist is different. My next argument here relates to my previous argument.
I think you're overrating it. Here's a list of ninja who have kept up with or outspeeded Kakashi's 3 Tomoe without having speed-enhancements:
Haku (he blocked an attack without Kakashi even registering it. TWICE.)
Base Naruto (Initial Shippuden version)
Base Sakura (Initial Shippuden version)
Deva Path (INCLUDING whatever delay exists between Nagato's commands and the Paths' reactions)
So, nearly EVERY enemy Kakashi has fought that didn't posess speed-boosters themselves...
Here's a list of ninja who WOULD be able to keep up based on feats or reputation:
No, this list would simply take too long. More-or-less ANY Kage or Elite Jounin-level Shinobi can keep up with 3 Tomoe Kakashi to a degree, even without any sort of speed-boost. Darui goes into the Elite Jounin-level category (he's undeniably stronger than Part 1 Kabuto, for example), and so it's more than reasonable that he could at least SURVIVE Zabuza's Silent Killing.
I could of sworn you said asked me before, "You think Zabuza can hurt Darui at will"...and now your saying he can but Darui won't die from it? Get your argument straight.
I wouldn't say Darui has the edge, Zabuza is a Legendary Swordsmen, that's enough said, but I'll explain. Didn't you see when the Seven Ninja Swordsmen got revived, how feared everybody was? It was probably because they all killed some strong ninja in their time which added to their reputation. Zabuza, being noted the best at Hidden Mist + Silent Killing, it is evident he killed non-fodder people. But I have no proof of this and only going by hype here, so I can't argue this. But I would agree it's a stalemate.
Kenjutsu is a stalemate and would decide nothing but that they should find some other way to do battle. So, essentially, Darui wins here as well. In any case Zabuza has killed no non-fodder ninja with his giant sword, even inside the mist, and Darui has repeatedly landed mortal or debilitating blows against the KinGin and Suigetsu. In terms of actual, proven effectiveness, Darui has the edge.
What errors? I would like to hear them.
Oh? You've made a few errors, even concerning a fight your favorite character is involved in...
1. That's different then saying, "He has NO problem using them" You were overrating there because he did have a problem, it may not be that big but it's still a problem. 2. If I'm not mistaken, wasn't Darui assigned by Shikaku to help fight Kakuzu, but Darui couldn't at the moment because he said he was running low on chakra?
Did he collapse? Did he stop using them? Did he switch to less chakra-intensive methods of fighting? Did he say, "I'm taking a break" or something to that effect after vanquishing the Brothers, or did he go RIGHT ON FIGHTING?
Already explained in my previous argument, see above.
Not necessarily, and not without exposing his position. Which could very well be fatal.
He never has, true, but he only did that one time against Kakashi because Kakashi got out of the Water Prison by help. Ok, you think if Zabuza faced a ninja one on one, that if Zabuza wanted to use Giant Vortex Jutsu, he would get rid of the mist first? It doesn't even matter if Darui can hear it, they are both not easy techs to dodge in the first place, and with the mist up making it even harder to dodge is basically a direct hit. Water Dragon Jutsu, in Japanese, Water Dragon Missle, is a jutsu where a giant dragon made of water comes at you, and just like a missle, will move and adjust to where you are, even when you move. So how is Darui dodging that in mist? We don't even know if he would have enough time to put of Water Wall. And Giant Vortex Jutsu is so great of a technique Sasuke couldn't even dodge it, and he has MS, so your argument is invalid.
Why would I think Zabuza would use his large Suiton while not covered by the mist?
Because he NEVER HAS, perhaps? GIANT VORTICES OR DRAGONS ARE NOT SILENT. They REVEAL Zabuza's position. They offer the opportunity to dodge or block on a WAY higher level than a speedy figure closing in from behind. Darui would have little trouble defending himself against these techniques.
Please DO continue talking about how Black Lightning enhances Zabuza's attacks. I don't think I understand that part quite yet. And it's very likely that Darui would use Water-enhancing attacks against a demonstrated (and well-known) Suiton user.
Darui using Water Wall, if he has time, would block Water Dragon, but not Giant Vortex Jutsu, it is to strong of a Suiton tech to be blocked by that mid-sized wall. Anyways, this part of the argument is useless because of course Zabuza, as said, is going to be going very fast behind Darui trying to get him, and not using the Suiton techs, so we should drop this, agreed?
No you didn't demonstrate that because Kakashi was still using his Sharingan, how about you go back to that chapter and look at the previous page, he could still see, don't try to fool me.
Well. As I've now demonstrated, Kakashi's Sharingan isn't NEEDED for him to block things in the mist, AND Kakashi's reaction time, even with the fancy eye, isn't unique or unmatched in terms of high-level ninja, like Darui.
You still seem to think that the mist completely negates every possible attack, with no option one hitting. Which is just unreasonable.
Interestingly enough, Water channels Lightning, and Lightning-aligned ninja are less susceptible to Lightning-based attacks. So, as Darui has at least one seal-less Raiton, he should be able to escape the Water Prison even if he's captured. And getting trapped in a Water Prison (especially without weaker parties to be used as "bait") is not exactly a matter of time. If both combatants are standing on water, it's equally likely (or more so, he's in general faster with ninjutsu) that Darui will fire off some sort of technique either at Zabuza or at the water in general for a quick immobilization. Which would lead to Zabuza's death.
If Darui was caught in a Water Prison, if he used Lightning in it, he would be electrocuted all around and Zabuza would just feel it on his hand and quickly let go. It would paralyze if not kill Darui. " Lightning-aligned ninja are less susceptible to Lightning-based attacks" Where the hell did you get that bullshit? How does having a lightning element make less immune to lightning attacks? Zabuza has Water element, he wasn't immune or less damaged by Giant Vortex Jutsu. That's just sounds so asinine. Darui would just electrocute himself, it would hurt him hell of a lot more and leave him paralyzed.
I mean, I actually already said Sharingan and enhanced sensing abilites would GRAZE Zabuza....are you just saying that to make it look like I'm over hyping Zabuza to get the edge? No. And Darui may be able to survive, see my previous argument.
Oh but they are. At least, he won't be immediately dead. Why do you persist in thinking that NOTHING can POSSIBLY even GRAZE Zabuza while he's in the mist?
Light will not brighten up the mist and help Darui see, how can you even picture that? And Laser Circus isn't even a great sourse of light that covers an area, it's like a glow in the dark stick. Please stop using this argument, it's very, it's just stupid, no one have ever used an argument like this, probably because they don't try to think of any possible ways, even when they arn't logical.
Raikiri provides LESS LIGHT THAN LASER CIRCUS. That should be OBVIOUS.
It provides light. Light provides visual range. Visual range means that Zabuza, or his clones, will be easier to see.
Naruto-fans aren't exactly reknowed for their understanding of actual, real-world nature. You yourself don't even seem to realize that light makes things easier to see, even when it's misty.
Good argument. I actually, and I'm not even lieing, was going to say Deidara as an example because I swear I was thinking about him, but I didn't think it was needed because the only reason Deidara trained his eyes was to beat Itachi. Zabuza only trained his eyes to fight in the mist, Darui has yet a reason to go under immense training to increase the vision power of his eyes, it has yet to be in manga, so we can't assume this. But we can assume his eyes are better than Sakura's, even so, we don't know if they are good enough.
Even regular eyes can be trained to break through illusions, and as pretty much EVERY Shippuden fight is faster than Lee was (and HE was faster than sight for non-Sharingan users), it's pretty clear that perception increases DRASTICALLY the higher up in rank you go, and that eyes can be trained to accomplish things which seem impossible. Zabuza HIMSELF has supposedly trained his sight to function even in thick mist (as in the FIRST engagement with Kakashi), though he doesn't NEED to see to be able to fight.
In the first fight, Zabuza used mist of a lesser density than he later used. It was more easily seen through:
That's from the second fight. And he has no reason to use the denser version, it's not like he's fighting a Sharingan-user or anything...
Oddly enough, Kakashi was able to defend Sakura and Tazuna, without them able to tell anything about what was going on:
Unless Zabuza keeps moving so when Darui would use one of his jutsu to find Zabuza, we don't know after Darui is done with that area if Zabuza would then possibly move to it, hearing sounds of attacks coming at hit or around him. We can't assume this.
Boxing someone in is a phrase meaning to control someone's positioning (with some nefarious purpose). It has nothing to do with Darui's relative position. If Darui locks down an area with a technique, he knows Zabuza isn't there. Which is of tremendous strategic value.
If Zabuza is further away, he's not attacking Darui.
You DID say that a slightly reduced concentration of Black Lightning would have little or no effect. Which is untrue.
And I said, "If Black Lightning hits Zabuza directly", if its spread out and less concentrated, I doubt it would have that same effect.
It was shown to be moving rapidly and jerking around in 1 direction, it was never shown that it could move counter clockwise or clock wise constantly, and to even find a target. I will not assume this because it wasn't even shown to change course of direction. This argument is to far fetched.
If he can't move it at where he KNOWS Zabuza is, but can still move it in the direction Zabuza ACTUALLY IS, despite it not originally moving in that direction, it could hit him unexpectedly. But that's not my point. If he can aim it, he can aim it so it covers more ground, eliminating possible positions Zabuza migh have so that the NEXT attack can hit. Or the one after that. And so on.
You're right, I was wrong about Kakashi, "reading his mind", Kakashi "copied" his mind, allowing him to complete sentences that Zabuza was thinking in his head.
You ARE aware that reading someone's mind like that isn't actually what happened? Here:
As Zabuza stated in the manga LATER, it was a hypnotic suggestion to use a jutsu in Kakashi's arsenal.
But also, you're wrong. Kakashi suggested Zabuza to use Giant Vortex Jutsu FROM ZABUZA'S ARSENAL, because HE COPIED ZABUZA'S MIND, not his. Which is why Zabuza even said, "He copies MY jutsu before I can even do it, I can't keep up" and "I was just about to create a vortex, but he created one first!". You can't go against manga like that, all the proof is there that Zabuza already knew the Gaint Vortex Jutsu.
Dude, he was being outsmarted, terribly confused of what was going on because Kakashi phased him, and was terrified and very confused about the genjutsu, Zabuza explained this in the later fight about how Kakashi phased him and how he didn't get hit like some genin and had Haku in the background watching.
Well that shows impressive battle tactics now doesn't it?
Dude, don't even try this argument. That's because he died, when people die, they lose their possessions, Darui is still alive and doesn't have them, we are debating WHEN ZABUZA WAS STILL ALIVE in part 1, would he be able to fight Darui, which is why he has the sword and why you're "letting it slide".
Well, Zabuza doesn't exactly have the Kubikiri Hocho in his posession either, but I'll let it slide.
Before/as you start replying, we need to find away to summerize parts of the argument to what we can agree on, these posts are taking so long to reply to and getting us really no where.