Re: Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable
Lol, if you think being hokage is only about shinobi strength. Besides you are still basing this on hypes about Hashirama, whom we have nowhere near enough evidence to clarify stronger than others. Only EMS Madara, we can say he beat him, but does that make him stronger? It all depends on the battle. Who used more chakra, Hashi binding the Kuybi, or Madara summoning/controlling it? Hashi had his necklace, making it easier to bind it/control it. No need to prove that. Yamato said that Hashi was made hokage, because of his ability to control/stop a tailed beast (in particular the kuybi). And that the necklace was in huge aid for that.
Originally Posted by ItachiStyle
Pff, then he did indeed need another/better jutsu. Yeah he was "toying", but make no mistake. Oro more than anyone respects Hiruzen. However, he did not respect his ideals, and didn't believe that old man, would be able to do, what he did. As for the summons, practically helped hiruzen. The darkness removed Oros senses. Possibly he knew of Hirus smelling ability. Yet Hiruzen proved that his strength, even with a bunshin, was enough to physically keep 1st and 2nd from performing hand seals. Don't you think the edo tensei would have made them break free? Plus his strength was even divided among bunshins. And as an old man..
Oro didn't need
to use any other jutsu. He was winning, until Hirzen used a jutsu he wasn't prepared for, and caught him by surprise (after which no further jutsu were possible). The guy had already summoned 2 of the strongest edo ninja ever, and is standing around "toying" with Hirzen... he doesn't need to summon more snakes, he's already got 2 summons vastly beyond the power of any other summons or jutsu he could use in this circumstance.
Hmm, I think Oro can use hand seals to some hardly limited amount due to use of medicine and drugs. He has a special tatoo, which allows him to summon snakes freely, and as you see, he uses mouth most of time (all of the time actually? Can't remember any with hands). The only summoning jutsu he used after having his hands seals, is the triple rashomon.
Lol I doubt he is younger, tho no databook can prove Onokis age, however, when Madara met Onoki 1st time, he didn't look older than Hiruzen did in Danzos war-flashback. I am almost certain that they are from the same generation (+/- 0-3 years), when the databook comes out.
He's young compared to Onoki, who has demonstrated feats way beyond anything Hirzen showed us.
Lol, knowing jutsu and being able to perform it is different. Having knowledge, means you can fight it, counter it, etc. Besides it's just a feat. But fact is he knows much more than any other from leaf..
If Hirzen could pull out jutsu like the flying thunder god technique he was definitely dumb not to use them. Look, I don't doubt Hirzen was a knowledgable and strong Kage, well worthy of his title, but we can't just assume
he actually knew how to perform all jutsu in the leaf, because of a one off sarcastic comment from Oro that he "was said to know all jutsu in the leaf". By that logic we should just assume Haku's jutsu really was unstoppable. It's silly, especially as we're also told explicitly that "only X and y" could perform certain jutsu (like the rasengan), which is alot more decisive and credible than hyperbolic sarcastic one off remarks from a villain taunting his former teacher. I'm pretty damn sure Hirzen couldn't use space time barriers, given he had 2 chances to stop the 9 tails destroying the village, and had to stand there doing nothing with an "oh F#$@" expression on his face, while Minato stopped it both times.
Hmm, again just an idiotic example... If a character says something, it's Kishi that says it. Tobi saying he is Madara, wasn't a direct lie. He just did, what Madara wanted. So practically he was acting as Madara. It was Madaras plan after all.
The Manga says alot of things that are clearly false (or erroneous). And this isn't word of god, it's a one liner from a villain. I guess Tobi must be Madara, because he said so. There's no way villains could lie, or say something misleading, is there.
Again I can only disagree. Hiruzen is the one that formed konoha as we know it. The 1st died shortly after founding it, though founding it is a huge contribution. Then war broke out, the 2nd (according to databooks), became hokage just as war breached (no wonder nobody wanted war with Konoha during Hashis life time, if you know what I mean). So he was only kage shortly, and didn't have time to do a dime. Surely he started police and the academy, but who formed those departments? Whos teaching has been taught in the academy? Etc.. It's Hiruzens. Surely he is influenced by his teacher, but it's Hiruzen who chose to lead that on. It's him who became hokage, so it's his responsibility that a person like Naruto came out. Surely there are bad examples as well, but any kage has ups and down during their reign. But having a stable system, which makes a shinobi village functional is the best. That is why, you chose someone like yourself as the next hokage, and obviously Hirzuen was stronger than Danzo. Take his last thoughts into account. Of course this changed, when Danzo obtained sharingan and Senju DNA..
It says nothing of the sort. Nothing he has done makes us think he was especially notable as a Kage, but that speaks more to the incredibly high standard of Kage we've seen thus far. Kage level ninja like Jiraiya are way beyond most ninja. Thus far, Hirzen might be the weakest of the 5 Hokage we've seen (and weaker than cheapanagi, massively upgraded Danzo). I certainly think he'd have been stronger than quite a few Kage, such as Gaara's father, or the current Mizukage, but the other Hokage we've seen/heard of seem stronger, either by a large margin (like Hashirama), or a lesser one. I can certainly believe a prime Hirzen was in the Tsunade range of Kage, and maybe even comparable to the 2nd Hokage (though I'm a little dubious, I can't be sure), but he's not notable as a kage really. He's at best 3rd or 4th among Hokage (discounting Danzo), and certainly has done nothing to put himself in the same tier as Onoki (or even guys like Mu and the 3rd Raikage, and by extension the 2nd Mizukage)
I did read your thread, my problem is, you say the strongest hokage. In that case your term is actually wrong. A leader is judged by many other factors than strength (fact). Had you said shinobi, fine, I wouldn't care, but hiruzen is a stronger kage than any other hokage. Popularity is a key factor.
"Most Popular"? That has nothing to do with strength. I feel like you didn't even read this thread, or understand what it was about. It was not about his popularity, or legacy, or teaching skills, or grasp of military strategy. It was about how powerful he was... in battle.
It's fine you chose to judge by, what is shown in the manga. I judge by what is said. At some point in time, Hiruzen was stronger than Onoki and 3rd raikage (as I interpret it). This in my understanding of the word "strong", does not mean Hiruzen beat either in a 1 vs 1, but it means that if Hiru paired with 3 other shinobi (lets say 3 strongest next to him), and Onoki paired with the 3 strongest next to him, Hiruzens team would have overall more usefulness in a shinobi war. This again does not mean they beat Onokis team, but other factors are important. Now I will take your way of doing it, being strength alone, surely from what the manga shows, Hiruzen doesn't beat Onoki. Let me explain.
Well, Onoki needed Gaara and Naruto to beat Mu, so there's another Kage who is as strong. And the 2nd Mizukage by extension. I think it's pretty clear the 3rd Raikage has a strong case over anything we've seen Hirzen do either. I can't see him beating cheaped up Danzo, and there are heaps of characters without a kage title who are as strong or stronger than him too.
The manga said the hokage is the strongest among the 5 kage. Though 3rd raikage was dead at that time, so neglect him. However, this is why, I believe that Kishi doesn't determine "strength as a kage" by just pure strength in battle. The hokage seems to be the one with more spirit, and more belief in his people than any of the other. This makes him the strongest, because it gives him a different will, and different ideals to fight for. If Kishi meant that Hiruzen is stronger than take Onoki or A, from what he shows us, it would not make sense.
If you see, where I'm trying to get at, you would understand, why I dislike this thread, and the words/terms you use, even if you mean to only discuss ability, and you think Kishi either changed his opinion, or just is talking bull**** (ie your tobi example). This is wrong. I think he meant every word, but he simply interprets shinobi strength in another way.
Take Iruka. To most around here he is fodder, to me he is one of the strongest shinobi, because of his will and his teachings. Just to name one. Of course I would never place him in a top50, since his disability in an actual fight, drags him down too hard. Yet I determine such lists by other feats than str
You didn't read it... Itachi has never been shown to own Oro. All we have seen was a mere paralyzing genjutsu, which any person without sharingan could fall for.... I disagree that the numbers are meaningless, and I don't think your evidence has any ground on it.
So many words, but none of them address what I've said. If Itachi owns Oro in Genjutsu, as you say, then the numbers are meaningless as a point of comparison, in which case they shouldn't be invoked to prop up Hirzen. Nor should the comments, when they've often been proved wrong.
Surely many of the things are over-exaggerated, when description of shinobi or jutsu are made, but this is just a way of talking. Saying Amaterasu is as hot as the sun, simply means, it is the "hottest" jutsu in Naruto. It's all about reading between the lines...
Basically it would be useful to mention a few words about the shinobi rankings.
As a shinobi you need a lot of features, so being stronger than another, doesn't mean you beat him in a 1 vs 1. Kishi already proved this. You do not get better ranks from strength. Shikamaru is best example.
Basically you need to know, what it takes to be:
Genin, chunin, anbu, jonin, kage, and thus determine, who is better in each rank. So even if Hiruzen is a better kage than Hashirama, it doesn't make him a better jonin, since different features are needed.
Also Kishi said in the databook that his ranking system is not comparable. If Oro has 5.0 is genjutsu it does not equal Itachis 5.0. This is not how the ranking system is made. The numbers describe a characters, specific ability within his own field, which can't always be compared. Bloodline abilities, jinchuuriki abilities, nature energy abilities, or other modes, are not mentioned in these stats. In other words, Itachi without sharingan would be around same level as Oro in genjutsu. But then again it also depends, which area of genjutsu the user specifies in. I don't know, which type of genjutsu Oro can do, well ninjutsu is a lot better example. Oro specifies in summoning ninjutsu, so obviously he is good at that. But can you compare that to Itachis fire based ninjutsu? Not really. If a person specifies in a very complex ninjutsu/genjutsu/tajutsu (take Gais tajutsu or the Huygas tajutsu), a 3.0 from a hyuga doesn't make him/her weaker in tajutsu than Itachi, who has 4.5 or Oro with 3.5. This also justifies a lot regarding Hiruzens stats.
And just to add the last thing to clear this up. Kisames clone that fought team Gai has 4.5 in ninjutsu and tajutsu, and 5 in str and stamina. It had 30 % of his attributes, yet he will be a 5 in those as well. So does that make his clone just as strong as him? No. So even if you chose to neglect, what I said above, Oro being 5 in genjutsu, and ita being 5, still does not mean they are nowhere near each other. Also when it comes to tai/nin/gen you do know that a jutsu can be part of both. Thus you can enhance a genjutsu, by using a ninjutsu. So it's really not possible to compare stats, unless shinobi have most of the same jutsu.