Re: Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable
We don't know if Onoki was in his prime, but what we do know is that based on his experience fighting Madara Onoki drew the following conclusions about his strength:
Originally Posted by thegame
- Madara was scarily strong, to the point where he could believe almost anything of him. Indeed, Madara was so awesome, a young Onoki literally gave up the idea of beating him. And we're then told Madara was not even trying during this fight (because fighting them was like fighting "children"). The dude rocks up (alone) on the Hidden Stones home turf, punks their Kage and his next in line, and tells them from now on "you follow my orders". Yeh, I think we can get a good feeling about how far beyond these guys Madara is in his prime.
1) Madara was not yet trying v.s Gaara, Onoki and Naruto, he was messing around. We know this because, aside from the fact that it's obvious, Madara tells us he isn't trying later on. Which prompts a disbelieving Onoki to ask "why did you go so easy on me back when we first fought, if you were this powerful" (remember, when they first fought, Madara had only EMS), to which Madara asks whether Onoki would fight seriously against kids. So no, that doesn't "count", because Madara wasn't trying (and once he was put in danger from not trying, he just tried a little harder, and kept doing that in the fight with Onoki and Co until finally he said "they are worthy Kage... ok, time to try").
Madara with EMS was defeated in an instance by Gaara+Onoki+Naruto, I don't get your point. He couldn't stabilize perfect susanoo at that point in mid air, he needed rinnengan to do so. You are forgetting the most vital fact here.
2) It's entirely made up for you to claim he couldn't use perfect Susanoo without the Rinnegan. Indeed, all the evidence seems the other way. Madara says "this time" the map won't change too much (implying he used it in the Hashirama fight, causing the creation of the valley of the end), Madara remarks he has used it before (which makes no sense if it is tied to the Rinnegan, as he was almost dead when he got the Rinnegan, and never fought anyone as he was in hiding). Remember also the reaction from Onoki when Madara uses it. He basically asks Madara (and I'm paraphrasing) "why didn't you use this kind of power when we first fought!", to which Madara tells him (again paraphrasing) "I wasn't trying when I fought you". Madara doesn't say "oh, I couldn't use this power back then". When Tsunade asks "did my grandfather really fight against this?", Madara replies "I told you, the only one who can stop me is Hashirama... but he's not in this world anymore", which implies very heavily that "yes, Hashirama really fought this level of power, and could still plausibly defeat Madara now if he were alive".
Not only is this pure speculation on your part (invented to support your theory), but I've addressed it above. And in my opening post. The author very much seems to be telling us that Hashirama could stop this sort of thing, which is why Madara says (paraphrasing) "only Hashirama could stop me now, but he's gone", or "if he were around, we'd have to redraw the maps even more", or Kabuto tells us "his power was so incredible, people thought it a fairy tale". That's pretty decisive, unlike your invented theory which exists only to support your agenda.
If it can destroy a mountain, nothing known in Hashiramas arsenal of jutsu, should be able to block it. Dodging is different tho, but even that seems unrealistic. In edo state he can just use full scale jutsu depleting his entire chakra arsenal in every jutsu. It is not even close to possible to compare it to his normal EMS state, which fought Hashi.
Well, we see no evidence of it whatever. In addition, see what I wrote above. Onoki got a good indication of Madara's power from that fight, and it was apparently enough to scare him pretty badly, even with only EMS. If Madara needed the fox to win then Onoki's attitude would be much less "Oh F#$@, Madara!!!" and much more "well, he's pretty hard to beat with the 9 Tails, but I reckon Muu and I could have taken him without the fox helping him".
Who says Madara didn't summon the kuybi to take out Mu and Onoki? Just to give one unlikely example, but with the knowledge given, you can't conclude much with that fight, except Madara didn't fight to his full strength.
We see no evidence Oro tried to escape. Why would he, the guy could regenerate his body at will, and would have had no fear about Hirzen killing him, because he knew nothing about a class S jutsu that seals him (and which is invisible to the victim until it's too late). Not that this is relevant to the point made.
Lol this is just pathetic to read, considering the outcome of the battle.... The one here, who doesn't remember the hiru vs oro fight must be you. What happened when Oro had lost his 2 pawns? Hiru grabbed enma, and jumped towards Oro. Basically Oro was trapped in his own mess, he couldn't escape.
Well, from close quarters he might have not had time. I don't think it's a secret the author doesn't always make everyone act in the smartest way, though he does a good job overall. I certainly don't see what Triple Gates would have done (certainly wouldn't have blocked the reaper seal hand). It also woudln't have fit inside the barrier (nor would 10,000 snakes).
So in the end, Oro did indeed need more jutsu, why didn't he pull out his 10,000 snakes or triple rashomon, when Hiru was leaping towards him. He already saw the effects of the jutsu, Hiru used to remove the 2 kages, and he was just at 1/3 of his original powers. He had sealed away the other 2/3.
Let's get back to the actual point. Are you seriously suggesting Hirzen could use techniques like the Flying Thunder God or Rasengan? No? Because if you're not, then we shouldn't put much weight on this "he could perform all techniques" angle you're pushing (and which is pretty unsupported in the manga).
Your argument that Oro couldn't fight properly while controlling the Hokage, and that he was limiting their actions, doesn't help the argument that this fight is some big thing for Hirzen.
Well I had the feeling, you knew your manga facts, so didn't put evidence, but sigh.. Then let me prove it:
Here we see, when Oro first starts to use the 2 kages. Basically he needs a double hand seal to control them, thus he cannot take place in the fight as well (while using them):
Oro knows the Genjutsu has ended, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's because he was also blinded by the genjutsu, it may just be he can see it from the outside (in the same way that in bleach one can see the Darkness Bankai of Tosen from the outside). It's utterly unclear, which makes what you've said speculation, and inadmissable.
Oro still has that stance, and he is obviously surprised, about what has just happened. He has no idea that Hiruzen just defeated both former kages, since he has no idea about, what jutsu he just used / is about to use.
Go read the thread about Oro and reply there. This is a pointless distraction here, and I don't feel like repeating myself in two threads. You admit you can't explain the Rashomon... end discussion.
Hmm, no it doesn't. You proved nothing in that poor thread. You just said that Oro could summon triple rashomon, so he could use his arms. Damn what a thread... Please find and prove that Oro can summon snakes with his hands. I cannot explain the rashomon right now, need to look more into it, but I would guess that it was his drugs/medicine that allowed him to use his hands, and after using them just once, he was already feeling the after effects of his body rotting.
That tatoo on his arm shows 2 snakes. Sasuke gained the very same symbol after absorbing Orochimaru. After Oro was removed from Sasuke, he hasn't summoned a single snake. You see my point? There isn't solid evidence, but neither is yours. Fact is the snake summons have something to do with that tatoo.
Iruka doesn't even say that though. He lightheartedly says to the kids how the hokage is said to be the strongest, and the Hokage makes a light hearted remark in reply. Who the heck is Iruka to be able to comment seriously on such a thing? He's never even met most Kage, let alone is an expert on their skills. Let's remember, this is a world in which the leafs own ninja didn't really understand how strong Madara was, and even ask Dan "is Madara really so strong?"... "we're fighting him through the 5 kages though". This is a world in which the Shinobi of today don't believe the stories about how strong Hashi was, because it seems like a fairy tale. Iruka is in no position to really comment in this context, and we certainly shouldn't take his vague aside as gospel (he "was said" to be that strong? Just like Haku's jutsu "was said" to be unstoppable?). Madara on the other hand has alot of credibility. He actually fought Hashirama, and has no reason to like the guy, or to make remarks that diminish his own rep. Plus, some of what he says or does is seen in flashbacks... we see a flashback of him fighting Hashi with the fox (and apparently losing). We see a flashback of him getting pissed at someone mentioning Hashirama's name. We see him facing off with Hashi, with sweat dripping down his brow. We see him using techniques Hashi had, like summoning giant forrests of living trees, or wood dragons, telling us "Hashi used this on me", or which are recognised by Tsunade. This is the context we apply to people's comments. One context givs Madara's remarks credibility. The other makes Iruku's remarks pretty meaningless.
So according to your logic, we can't trust a dime of what is said in the manga, it could be a lie? Iruka would lie to his students? Going by your logic, we would have to categorize people in a trustworthy category, thus your entire thread is utter pointless. The character you can trust the least is Madara. Everything he said about Hashirama could be a lie.
There's a big difference between knowing it, and "could have learnt it". If he didn't know all jutsu, then it shouldn't be used to prop him up.
I'm sure Hiruzen could do it, if he wanted to bother learning it...
The rest has already been addressed so thoroughly it doesn't merit another reply. A 5 that isn't always a 5 can't be cited as a meaningful metric of measurement. End of discussion.